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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Do you believe in the Virgin Birth or the notion that Mary rose into heaven without dying?


The New Atheist.
“Three writers have sounded a call to arms. They are Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett”
Dawkins is perfectly aware that atheism is an ancient doctrine and that little of what he has to say is likely to change the terms of this stereotyped debate. But he continues to go at it. His true interlocutors are not the Christians he confronts directly but the wavering nonbelievers or quasi believers among his listeners – people like me, potential New Atheists who might be inspired by his example.

Wired 14.11: The Church of the Non-Believers

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Having grown up Roman Catholic I respect the teachings on Mary, but don't put much emphasis on it.


Skimming over the article they use similar "religious " terms like, war, evangelize, and there is the typical I'm right, your wrong attitude that can be attributed to the "religious."

To characterize religion as "evil" is wrong. Sure there are tragedies like the inquisition, 9-11, darfur, northern ireland etc...

But "religion" has also been at the forefront of abolition, civil rights, Polish solidarity. And organizations like the Salvation Army can hardly be described as evil.

Christianity teaches that humans are not perfect, and because of that any human efforts at perfection are going to fail.

Without religion, or the atempt of eliminating religion, you had Stalin and the former USSR, China under Mao. With the aim of perfecting humanity, you have eugenics and the Holocaust.

Everyone needs to make a free, informed choice on whether they believe in God or not.






Grace and Peace

Okay Here's my two cents
I am an atheist and a scientist, It is my opinion that it is important to view the world through a scientific mind set. In this you should assume that something is untrue until you receive receive evidence to the contrary.

In the case of religion a large number of hypotheses have been presented. There is the christian, jewish and islamic hypotheses, the budhist hypothesis, the daoist hypothesis, the greek hypothesis, the egyptian hypothesis and even scientology presents a hypothesis. However non of these hypotheses present any credible evidence in support of their claims as a result there is no way of saying that religion A is more likely than religion B or religion C etc. As a result it is logical to assume that none of the religion hypotheses are true until you receive proof overwise.

In essence I am of the opinion that you should default to atheism though remain open minded of any evidence to the contrary that you receive

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Do you believe in the Virgin Birth or the notion that Mary rose into heaven without dying?

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Nope. Simple and concise.

/Dawkins for President... err I mean... if only foreign born individuals were able.
//Dawkins for Prime Minister!

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Originally Posted by pedant

Okay Here's my two cents
I am an atheist and a scientist, It is my opinion that it is important to view the world through a scientific mind set. In this you should assume that something is untrue until you receive receive evidence to the contrary.

In the case of religion a large number of hypotheses have been presented. There is the christian, jewish and islamic hypotheses, the budhist hypothesis, the daoist hypothesis, the greek hypothesis, the egyptian hypothesis and even scientology presents a hypothesis. However non of these hypotheses present any credible evidence in support of their claims as a result there is no way of saying that religion A is more likely than religion B or religion C etc. As a result it is logical to assume that none of the religion hypotheses are true until you receive proof overwise.

In essence I am of the opinion that you should default to atheism though remain open minded of any evidence to the contrary that you receive

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I agree with the author of the article, it is time to declare our position, whatever it is. However, I do sympathize with the “closet unbeliever” to some extent; similarly the gays have found out, “coming out” can be a dangerous thing to do, but on the other hand living a lie can also be a dangerous thing for the individuals psychological well being.

I agree with another thing the author points out, I too agree with Dawkins when he said that he looks forward to the day when the first US politician is honest about being an atheist. "Highly intelligent people are mostly atheists," he says. "Not a single member of either house of Congress admits to being an atheist.

It just doesn't add up. Either they're stupid, or they're lying. And have they got a motive for lying? Of course they've got a motive! Everybody knows that an atheist can't get elected." Now I wonder if this an example of a civil rights violation?

I wonder why people think that all highly intelligent people have to be atheists?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Having grown up Roman Catholic I respect the teachings on Mary, but don't put much emphasis on it.


Skimming over the article they use similar "religious " terms like, war, evangelize, and there is the typical I'm right, your wrong attitude that can be attributed to the "religious."

To characterize religion as "evil" is wrong. Sure their are tragedies like the inquisition, 9-11, darfur, northern ireland etc...

But "religion" has also been at the forefront of abolition, civil rights, Polish solidarity. And organizations like the Salvation Army can hardly be described as evil.

Christianity teaches that humans are not perfect, and because of that any human efforts at perfection are going to fail.

Without religion, or the atempt of eliminating religion, you had Stalin and the former USSR, China under Mao. With the aim of perfecting humanity, you have eugenics and the Holocaust.

Everyone needs to make a free, informed choice on whether they believe in God or not.

Grace and Peace

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I agree that to assert religion is inherently Evil is simply not logical; doing so is to adopt the language of religion. There are a great many religious people who view a Bible as an evolving school of knowledge, mainly having to do with social society.

The mistake of Stalin, Mao and the Crusaders was to try and force belief by governmental force.

Christianity teaches a lot of thing and a great many are contradictory to others, and when you include Judaism and Islam the whole thing falls apart, how one determines which leaders to follow is outside the realm of logic and relies on faith alone. The problem with living without faith, is as in Breaking the Spell, where Dennett writes about the personal risk inherent in attacking faith. There is a difference however between religious faith and the faith Dennett suggests which is that the one is absolute and the other holds the possibility of error.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I wonder why people think that all highly intelligent people have to be atheists??

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I’m certainly not “highly intelligent,” yet I’m an atheist; :) I believe there are many who are ‘closet atheist’ and so it can not really be known whether it is accurate to say, as did Dawkins when he said, "Highly intelligent people are mostly atheists," and I certainly don’t believe that many people believe that to be the case.

So Atheists are not highly intelligent people? ;)

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

So Atheists are not highly intelligent people??;)

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Following is a list of atheist, you decide. :p


List of atheists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did these become more intelligent after atheism or before atheism? :)

I have no use for the monotheism that came out of the middle east... those stories are their cultural myths of long ago... Creation, the Garden of Eden, and so forth. They read like children's stories, fairy tales, as it were. Those who *chose to believe* in the various monotheisms enter a world of dreams, of fantasy. Children who are indoctrinated into a fantasy world of dreams suffer child abuse at the hands of the "religion pusher".

Those who are educated at Christian Schools and those educated at Islamic schools receive the best education the 12th and 7th Centuries have to offer, respectively.

Because monotheistic thinking is so backward and dreamlike, its fruits upon world peace, overpopulation and cooperation is super negative.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

Did these become more intelligent after atheism or before atheism??:)

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The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.
“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
1. An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

American Atheists -- Atheism

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Originally Posted by Choux

I have no use for the monotheism that came out of the middle east....those stories are their cultural myths of long ago....Creation, the Garden of Eden, and so forth. They read like childrens stories, fairy tales, as it were. Those who *chose to believe* in the various monotheisms enter a world of dreams, of fantasy. Children who are indoctrinated into a fantasy world of dreams suffer child abuse at the hands of the "religion pusher".

Those who are educated at Christian Schools and those educated at Islamic schools receive the the best education the 12th and 7th Centuries have to offer, respectively.

Because monotheistic thinking is so backward and dreamlike, its fruits upon world peace, overpopulation and cooperation is super negative.

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Thank you for exhibiting a willingness to be so public and unapologetic, it is encouraging others to do the same — to be open and public about their atheism, skepticism, and rejection of traditional religion:)

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.
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Thanks for that detailed definition-

I am just going to look into it in sections and give my views/ask questions, I hope you do not mind!

An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now
I have no problems with that because I believe that heaven is something we work for NOW (may not be in the same context it is used in the definition:))

the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
Inner conviction and strength I think is a good quality.
About grappling with life and subdueing it, how can one enjoy while fighting it to tame it?
And for that matter why does life have to be tamed?

in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment
I agree knowledge is necessary to understand the world we live in, humans and other creatures included.

An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
I agree with the part that deeds must be done not instead of prayer,but along with it.

Could you explain the bit about involvement in life and not escape into death?From what I know we do not have a choice about the time or place of death, so how can one escape into death?Is that about suicide or not?

He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
About end of troubles in a Hereafter, does any atheist believe there is one?Or does all believe there is none?

the job is here and the time is now.
The job being here and now, I believe that too.This life is all we have to do good/bad, no more second chances!

Thanks in advance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Do you believe in the Virgin Birth or the notion that Mary rose into heaven without dying?


The New Atheist.
“Three writers have sounded a call to arms. They are Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett”
Dawkins is perfectly aware that atheism is an ancient doctrine and that little of what he has to say is likely to change the terms of this stereotyped debate. But he continues to go at it. His true interlocutors are not the Christians he confronts directly but the wavering nonbelievers or quasi believers among his listeners – people like me, potential New Atheists who might be inspired by his example.

Wired 14.11: The Church of the Non-Believers

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I believe in the Virgin Birth.

I can't say that that detailed definition has the same meaning today as it did then; it was not written as an infallible truth. I do object to the use of the word 'Heaven' though. Just as I object to what the humanist chaplaincy at Harvard University, Greg Epstein referred to as Atheist "Fundamentalism." These are the terms of 'Religion'... it's a false category created by religious theists who are trying to draw a false analogy between unapologetic atheists and fundamentalist religion.

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Originally Posted by stuntmangt

I believe in the Virgin Birth.

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How about that Buddha came from a lotus blossom? Do you believe that too?
:)

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Are you saying a Bible is not the literal truth then?

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Where does it say in the Bible that Mary ascended into heaven without an earthly death? To believe that Mary ascended into heaven without dying is not a biblical notion. To not believe it is not doubting the Bible. The Bible clearly supports the Virgin Birth but it does not support Mary's lack of a physical death.

Crow you know where I stand with my faith. Dawkins with his as you say absolutism either proves my contention that Atheism is a faith all unto itself ;or that he is truly not an atheist as much as a pure god hater .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Dawkins with his as you say absolutism either proves my contention that Atheism is a faith all unto itself ;or that he is truly not an atheist as much as a pure god hater .

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Dawkins cannot be a god hater. You can't hate something you don't believe exists. A religion hater maybe, I think he might have actually gone as far to say that anyway.

As for atheism as a religion, I can find an agreed definition on what religion is in order to argue it. However atheism has no institution, no worship, no idols, no spiritualism, no place of worship, no holy books. I think philosophy or belief system would cover it better than religion, but I definitely think it falls short of religious status.