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Originally Posted by Mommya

yelling into the phone in her native language.

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I'd asked before and don't remember that I got a response. Is there a clash of cultures here?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm thinking Stockholm syndrome.

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You're not the only one who has mentioned that!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'd asked before and don't remember that I got a response. Is there a clash of cultures here?

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It was answered, but you had to pretty much seek it out: "Yes, there is definitely a difference in culture. Although my SIL came here at age 10, he aggressively identifies with his birth country more strongly than with the US. However, I brought my husband here from a very (very!) different culture when he was 48, and he and I manage our cultural differences, including language, since we did not know each other's languages when we met.
I think the differences between me and my SIL and his mother are more idiosyncratic than cultural. I have worked and traveled to many parts of the world without encountering problems, and have dear friends in many other countries as well as many immigrant friends here. In fact, this is part of the reason that I find it strange that my SIL launched such a diatribe against my social skills. No one else has ever given a hint that I was socially inept, and I have interacted with people at literally every level of society, from peasants to heads of state, without encountering anything like this.
For whatever it's worth, both my husband and I get the strong feeling that we are expected to be much more impressed with SIL and MIL. MIL characteristically introduces herself to people and then immediately adds a professional designation to her introduction. This has puzzled even her own family, who know she has not worked in almost 40 years and probably never filled the role she uses as her "identity." I introduce myself as my daughter's mother, or as a neighbor, or a friend of a friend, etc. If people want to know my professional capacity, I let them ask later in conversation. As for other signs of pretension, it is so overriding that yes, people do talk about it.
In my daughter's own words, vis a vis personality disorder, MIL "doesn't know how to take 'no' for an answer." She starts every sentence with "In my opinion," and there is zero tolerance for of any other point of view.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'd asked before and don't remember that I got a response. Is there a clash of cultures here?

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Yes, there is. See post 14, above.

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Originally Posted by Mommya

I would happily spend little time with MIL, but even though I saw my daughter only a couple days every few months, it was mandated by SIL that his mother always be included in our plans. I did tell my daughter that it would be better to minimize our meetings, but that I would always be polite to MIL, and I was. Unfortunately, SIL did not agree with leaving his mother out of anything, even a weekend when we were visiting.
"In my opinion" translates to "this is how it is." When daughter was in the hospital with granddaughter #2, she gave me instructions to skip #1's bath when MIL finally brought her home. She wanted the child fed and put to bed; bath in the morning. MIL brought #2 home late and exhausted and crying. I thanked her for bringing the baby, and my husband calmed #2 down by taking her to watch the ceiling fan. MIL refused to go home and repeated over and over that in her opinion, the child needed a bath. I told her, very politely, that my instructions from the mom were to feed her and put her down for the night. Morning bath. Everything would be fine. MIL became incensed, pulled out her cellphone, called her son at the hospital, and stood in the middle of the house yelling into the phone in her native language. Then she went out to the car, took out the childseat, and shoved it at me hard enough to cause bruising. She left without a word. My husband and I were only concerned about the baby, and it has been my behavior to follow my daughter's wishes concerning her own household or child. We did and said nothing with any intent to upset MIL. Her hostility was unexplainable. It was this scenario that prompted my daughter to say that MIL doesn't take no for an answer. But never.
The next day, my daughter came home. I asked what she and SIL would like for dinner, and I spent most of the day preparing it. I specifically asked who would be there for dinner, and she said, "I've had enough of his family. I want it to be just us. They'll drop by in the afternoon, but they aren't staying for dinner." However, after SIL brought her home, he made several very ugly comments--to no one in particular, just to the wall--about why I hadn't invited everyone to eat dinner there. At dinner, he pointedly refused to eat anything. I was totally confused. Obviously there was a problem between them, but the following morning was his criticism fest about my manners. When my daughter heard him, she told him to stop, but he didn't. Not wanting to cause more stress with the new baby now at home, we packed up and left.

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As long as you are so involved trying to explain what a great mother you are, what a "bad" and problem mother "she" is you will never reconcile with your daughter.

Your posts are all about her bad attributes and your noble attitude.

Again - I'd focus on the problem with your daughter, not on the faults of her husband and mother in law.

You are so busy defending why you are right (and his mother is wrong) that you've lost sight of the bigger problem which is your estrangement from your daughter and grandchildren.

"In my opinion ..."

And I'll ask again - was this an arranged marriage; why is your daughter, presumably a college graduate, so easy influenced by her husband (if what you say is true). Didn't you raise her to be strong and self reliant? Or is this behavior totally new?

Quite frankly I wouldn't want you OR his mother "around" (or either one of you) if every meeting turned into a fault-finding expedition.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I'm thinking Stockholm syndrome.

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Love you, WG, but I'm not seeing that the daughter is being held captive. Influence, perhaps; sick of the fighting, perhaps; tired of hearing criticism of her husband and in laws - but I'm not seeing captivity.

What am I missing?

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Originally Posted by Mommya

Yes, there is. See post 14, above.

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Ah, it is my #13. I was away eating Lean Cuisine and Girl Scout cookies and missed it. Please name the cultures.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Love you, WG, but I'm not seeing that the daughter is being held captive. Influence, perhaps; sick of the fighting, perhaps; tired of hearing criticism of her husband and in laws - but I'm not seeing captivity.

What am I missing?

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That was back then. Was thinking it in light of how things were being explained. Not written in stone, just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Ah, it is my #13. I was away eating Lean Cuisine and Girl Scout cookies and missed it. Please name the cultures.

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SIL's father is Italian but born in Brazil. MIL is Greek, born in Egypt, I believe, grew up in Brazil. SIL considers himself a Brazilian and has gotten Brazilian passports for the children. Daughter is Heinz 57, everything from the DAR/English/Welsh/German/Hungarian/Latvian/Russian with a dash of Chinese from her stepfather. She recently was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church after MIL insisted that the babies be baptized and the church refused unless the mother was also baptized. She told me she didn't have to believe it, and that she wouldn't have to lie because the priest assured her she wouldn't have to say anything (!).

Lean Cuisine and Girl Scout cookies? I guess the first kind of makes room for the second...

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Originally Posted by Mommya

SIL's father is Italian but born in Brazil. MIL is Greek, born in Egypt, I believe, grew up in Brazil. SIL considers himself a Brazilian and has gotten Brazilian passports for the children. Daughter is Heinz 57, everything from the DAR/English/Welsh/German/Hungarian/Latvian/Russian with a dash of Chinese from her stepfather.

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I see a clash of temperaments, of emotional styles.

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Lean Cuisine and Girl Scout cookies? I guess the first kind of makes room for the second...

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I was cleaning out the freezer. Tomorrow's supper is ground beef stroganoff, noodles, and creamed spinach.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

As long as you are so involved trying to explain what a great mother you are, what a "bad" and problem mother "she" is you will never reconcile with your daughter.

Your posts are all about her bad attributes and your noble attitude.

Again - I'd focus on the problem with your daughter, not on the faults of her husband and mother in law.

You are so busy defending why you are right (and his mother is wrong) that you've lost sight of the bigger problem which is your estrangement from your daughter and grandchildren.

"In my opinion ..."

And I'll ask again - was this an arranged marriage; why is your daughter, presumably a college graduate, so easy influenced by her husband (if what you say is true). Didn't you raise her to be strong and self reliant? Or is this behavior totally new?

Quite frankly I wouldn't want you OR his mother "around" (or either one of you) if every meeting turned into a fault-finding expedition.

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Judy, I am on a discussion site. I did not criticize her husband to her until AFTER his attack and making us so uncomfortable we had to leave the house to avoid further conflict and stress for my daughter. He has been barely civil and hostile since we have known him and we have treated him with respect. If anything, I sometimes stood up for him when she complained about his personal habits. She also had a contentious relationship with MIL from the gitgo. She often complained to me about too much time with his family, except the middle sister with whom she had a very nice relationship.

As for why my daughter is so "easy influenced" by her husband, I don't know, but I guess it has to do with her perceived inability to support herself and her kids at this time. She likes creature comforts and she is pretty rigid in her requirements for herself in caring for the children. She was professionally fully and successfully employed for ten years after getting her degree; in fact, her first job reported directly to me and she was very competent. She had her own apartment for years, and she loved it. In fact, I began to see the erosion of her personality when she was between jobs and had to give up her place and move in with SIL. She was not comfortable in his townhouse and repeatedly told me how she missed her apartment. Her personality did change at this time, and she became anxious about SIL's approval of everything. The term chattel comes to mind.
And yes, I am aware that when a couple marries, they have to consider each other. But my observation was that the consideration was going almost entirely in one direction. And my thoughts on this were "it's fine if she is happy." But it became quite obvious that she was uncomfortable with a lot of the expectations placed on her. But the biological clock was ticking. I am also clearly aware that she was still very sad about breaking up with her last boyfriend for along time after she was married. The SIL, however, seemed more financially established, and I think this heavily affected her decision about the marriage.

As for not wanting me or MIL around, I never criticized the woman to her face, and only told my daughter, after several years, that I would really rather not spend as much time with MIL, since there was no satisfactory future in the relationship.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I see a clash of temperaments, of emotional styles.

I was cleaning out the freezer. Tomorrow's supper is ground beef stroganoff, noodles, and creamed spinach.

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For sure, but there is also a struggle for control. I don't think daughter has control over anything except strict diets and nap times for the babies, so that's what she clings to. It reminds me of the old joke: I'll make all the trival decisions, like how to spend our money, who are friends will be, and where we'll live. You can make the big decisions, about world peace and the meaning of life...

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Originally Posted by Mommya

For sure, but there is also a struggle for control. I don't think daughter has control over anything except strict diets and nap times for the babies, so that's what she clings to. It reminds me of the old joke: I'll make all the trival decisions, like how to spend our money, who are friends will be, and where we'll live. You can make the big decisions, about world peace and the meaning of life....

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But she has never been one to reach for, to demand to have control?

And she doesn't like to be faced with choices. She wants someone to tell her what to do (even if she regrets it later).

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But she has never been one to reach for, to demand to have control?

And she doesn't like to be faced with choices. She wants someone to tell her what to do (even if she regrets it later).

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Oh, I wouldn't say she she was never one to demand control! She was somewhat strong willed, but she also wanted input for the important decisions. In fact, as I said somewhere above, after she was on her own, she came to me with some decisions that I really didn't influence, including about this marriage. Now I am sorry that I didn't at least voice my opinion, but I felt she had to decide some of these things entirely on her own. And although I wasn't comfortable around SIL almost from the beginning, I wasn't marrying him. I think, now, I should have been more forthcoming about my discomfort, but that could've gone either way. So I just encouraged her to do what she felt would make her happy. This was a repeating phenomenon: She declared her college major because she was following the former boyfriend, and I did give her input about employability, her own academic strengths and weak spots, etc. Of course, she did what she wanted to do. It was around then I decided it would be best to just support her in her own decisions. One of the last things she sought advice about was having a third baby. She was in her 8th month with the second, and she was having a miserable time. The girls were only going to be 19 months apart, and she was only a few months out from the end of breastfeeding #1. SIL & Family had gone on a cruise together. Because she was in the advance stages of pregnancy, the cruise line wouldn't allow her to go, so she was left behind and we were spending time together. She had to be on a drip for the first trimester because she vomited uncontrollably and lost weight. But when they found out #2 was a girl, SIL began planning pregnancy #3 so he could have a family the same size as the one he grew up in, and have a boy. Daughter asked me if I thought SHE should have another baby! Without pausing to think, I told her that she would have two little girls under two and be 35 years old, and that the doctors said a third pregnancy would likely be even more difficult than the present one. And what if she got pregnant and baby #3 was a girl? What would she do? I left it at that, but I'm sure my opinion was clear. I remember that she seemed relieved by my answer. That's what made me regret I hadn't given opinions to earlier questions.

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Originally Posted by Mommya

Judy, I am on a discussion site. I did not criticize her husband to her until AFTER his attack and making us so uncomfortable we had to leave the house to avoid further conflict and stress for my daughter. He has been barely civil and hostile since we have known him and we have treated him with respect. If anything, I sometimes stood up for him when she complained about his personal habits. She also had a contentious relationship with MIL from the gitgo. She often complained to me about too much time with his family, except the middle sister with whom she had a very nice relationship.

As for why my daughter is so "easy influenced" by her husband, I don't know, but I guess it has to do with her perceived inability to support herself and her kids at this time. She likes creature comforts and she is pretty rigid in her requirements for herself in caring for the children. She was professionally fully and successfully employed for ten years after getting her degree; in fact, her first job reported directly to me and she was very competent. She had her own apartment for years, and she loved it. In fact, I began to see the erosion of her personality when she was between jobs and had to give up her place and move in with SIL. She was not comfortable in his townhouse and repeatedly told me how she missed her apartment. Her personality did change at this time, and she became anxious about SIL's approval of everything. The term chattel comes to mind.
And yes, I am aware that when a couple marries, they have to consider each other. But my observation was that the consideration was going almost entirely in one direction. And my thoughts on this were "it's fine if she is happy." But it became quite obvious that she was uncomfortable with a lot of the expectations placed on her. But the biological clock was ticking. I am also clearly aware that she was still very sad about breaking up with her last boyfriend for along time after she was married. The SIL, however, seemed more financially established, and I think this heavily affected her decision about the marriage.

As for not wanting me or MIL around, I never criticized the woman to her face, and only told my daughter, after several years, that I would really rather not spend as much time with MIL, since there was no satisfactory future in the relationship.

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Well, I've said all I can say. I don't even know these people and I'm tired of hearing the faults of the son in law and mother in law, real or imagined.

Your mistake is thinking you're on a discussion board. You aren't. You're on a Q and A board - take a look at what you agreed to when you joined.

I think all possible advice has been given. I think it's time to close.

Again, you raised your daughter. Only you know why she's so susceptible to abuse at the hands of her husband.

As Judy noted, this is a Q&A site, not a discussion site. The back and forth between the two of you has gone a little bit too far. So any further will not be allowed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. We all have to read what is posted and make our judgments based on what is posted. If you don't like the advice, feel free to ignore it. But don't denigrate the advice giver because you don't agree with their advice. I'm not saying I agree with all the advice you have been given, but I think everyone has tried to help you and the advice that has been given has been reasonable based on what you have posted.