I'd love to know why people think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that you're a sananist. From my experience (I was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do people do this? I personally hate it and wish I could beat people down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan people do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills people or animals to sacrifice. But, it started as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are people so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me I'm going to hell or that I'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what I believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.

Not everybody does that. You talk about how Christians look down on Wiccan or pagan. Now the thing you need to realize is that Christians look down on other Christians as well. It happens with every race, every religion, every different group in society. Has judgements or opinions about each other in the same group and about others in other groups. I personally am interested in other persons belief. I would love you to tell me about about yours. At the same time you should be open to hear mine as well! I am not going to tell you, your going to hell, because that is not up to me. That is not my judgement to make, nor is it anybody else's. We all have our own experiances, opinions, thoughts, and we all have our own choices to believe in what we want to believe. There are a lot of things I feel strongly for and if it happens that something comes up I will speak up, and out. Especially if it is about harming another person, unborn baby , etc...
Anyway, Excellent post.

Joe

I will say this, not to start another long fight thread, but all Christians as part of their faith should or do believe unless you are a christain and unless you have Jesus as your Saviour, you are not going to heaven,

It is just the basic of Christian faith, the choice is Jesus and salvation or no Jesus and no salvation.

A Christian by the very beleifs they have, can not believe there is salvation in another faith.

And I will greatly disagree with what Wicca is, but she has the right to believe what she does and believe it means what she believes he means,
I have the right to believe it means something else.

I'll clear it all up by starting with, I'm not wholely a pagan/wiccan. I'm merely looking into the religion. However, I do clam to be one, so people can see that as my being one at heart. -If that makes any sense lol. I don't agree with the christian religon and some of what the bible says. I was brought up in a christian home went to first Assembaly of God all my life. But it was boring and just unfullfilling. I have a fiancé whom is of no religion. He brought up a lot of great questions, thus my beinging to question the bible and christianity as a whole. I have a friend whom is chatholic and we argue a lot (not yell an scream argue) about what is right and wrong. My moral's are the same as any one else's. So, the reason I used christianity as an example is because I was one, but I did also mean other religion's and or people. So I'm not calling anyone out. I could careless what people believe in. I'm not going to condeem them or anything. I just don't care for those who preach and or point a finger at other's whom religion is ''differnet''. Hate to say it, but what is different can instill a bit of fear or uncertainty in someone. Thus making people scared and for instance-in Salem, innocent people were killed because of being a witch or acting like one. First off, some of the test's for proving witchery was INSANE! And most of the condemmer's were catholic or prodistant christians. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus Christ does say '' Love thy neighbor'' ''Be a fisherman of men''. Uhh, killing those who are different or who appear to be evil no matter how you spin it is wrong. So this descrimanation and hate has been happening for ages. --Yes I get off topic a bit lol. So, what I'm saying is being different, (person with ton's of tatoo's) believing different,(wiccan's or hindu's) living different (gay couples) is scary and put's fear into really religious people or people in general. FEAR causes lot's of problems. Fear of the unknown. But, going back or w/e, I have a problem with christian's because of some of the thing's written in the bible and or the practice's of their daily lives. I will answer any questions, no fighting, no anger, no bashing or w/e. I would be glad to share what I believe and or think or dislike. Just ask if u'd like to know something. This is my favorite thing to debate lol.

I am not sure EXACTLY sure what I believe or what religion I'm classified under and I don't care. I believe that we all (life as a whole and the world) were created by a supreame being. ONE, god. Weither man or women. That we are to take care of this world and help other's, by showing love and kindness to all. That we should strive to better ourselves everyday. That someday we will go on to another place after death, and live in happiness their. Unless, we lived our live's as selfish and cruel. Hurt other's and did nothing to help our world. --I personally want to someday die knowing ''Hey I changed at least one thing in the world for the better''.

You have an excellent out look on life. I would love to have a friendly debate. I hope you do not judge me because I do know Jesus, I do know God. At the same time I have read bible back to front on my own. I was never pushed to believe a certain way. I have always felt a connection. I have always known God. There are times I see things in my own religion I do not agree with, but there are a lot of things I do agree with as well. I do believe that Gods spirit is within each and everyone of us, and he has written his plan in our hearts and minds and spirits. It is up to each of us to open up and to listen to it. The greatest gift in this life is to love. Loving one another. The example: Catholics and Protestants fighting with each other in other countries. About the salam and witches. I was not there. I am not guilty of hating anybody, or putting anybody to death so you can not say all Christians are bad. Just like I cannot say all wiccans are bad. Anyway I guess I tend to go off as well.

Looking forward to you asking me questions and you sharing your interests and thoughts.

Joe

My take on gods /goddesses is there may be a higher power but I do not believe he/she would want us to worship him/her/them.Christianity is the only religion that demands god worship I think.
The way I see it is you have children -- do you want them to worship you, or grow up, find their own way and move on?
I have read the Bible a few times and find many good thoughts and ways in it -- but also see some things it endorses that to me are immoral.

Sure add me if you like :-) I don't judge anyone, and what I've written isn't meant to judge. It's merely meant to enlighten. I too have read the bible. So if anyone has any question's regarding my faith or lack of w/e I can answer the best I can. Alos, I wasn't trying to pin everything on the christian's, however they seem to be less tolerant of other's from personal experience. When I have kid's I will tell them at a reasonable age what I believe in, but that there are many belief's and it's up to them to figure out there own path and forthat I will journey together with them to guide them. I may take them to different church's of different faith's. Just to show hwat's out there. They will have a choice. I never had that chocie.

That is what children should have. Is their own choice. Even though I was brought up Roman Catholic. I have been to baptist churches. Jehovah Witnesses. I have had experiances in others. Read up on many more. I have my own personal reference. I also do believe that many peoples beliefs stem from what they were taught as young. Their culture influence. Some people venture off into other different things, because they may see things they do not like but, not all of them are the same. For example: Even in the Catholic Church. You go visit 5 different Catholic churches and I guarantee that each individual church does things differently. Has different approaches to teaching etc... It is natural for the parents to want their children to believe the same. I am going to do my best to raise my son in a good church, but when he grows up and old enough to make his own choices I do not mind if he checks other things out. I remember, I said to my Grandfather that I was going to check a different church out. He got all frustrated and aggravated and said Roman Catholic religion has been in our family for 100's of years. He did not want to see me go to another denomination, which personally I think is silly.

Joe

I'll be honest with you, I'm just scared of witches. My first wife was one.

Lol... Yeah I have looked in to a lot of different religion's and learned about them either in school or at home. One of the main question's I was ask/answer here was about if satanism is really worshiping satan and if it's evil as many think. Thus, also making them think wicca/paganism is evil. When in fact satanism is origanally a branch off paganism. Origanally, satanism was just a more self involved form of paganism, which I explained earlier. They didn't worship satan and kill inoccent's. Such is the belief of (personally) ignorant people. Today there are many branches of paganism, but the root's are outward, loving and caring people. Some people are extreamist's and will be that 5% of the pagan/santanic's who worship satan and or make scarifices. Making other religion's see that and think ''oh well they all must be evil!''... this is the problem I want to solve in the world. Also, the fact that many of the christian's I know are inntollerant of other's. AND I say many of whom I know! See, I may serve the same god they do, you never know. No one know's my heart except god. I just serve him in a different way. --As I've said I'm not sure exactly what I believe, still searching.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

I just don't care for those who preach and or point a finger at other's whom religion is ''differnet''. Hate to say it, but what is different can instill a bit of fear or uncertainty in someone.

So, what im saying is being different, (person with ton's of tatoo's) believing different,(wiccan's or hindu's) living different (gay couples) is scary and put's fear into really religious ppl or ppl in general. FEAR causes lot's of problems. Fear of the unknown.

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I think you put your finger on half of the problem here. Fear of the unknown and the different is a big part of it.

The other part is a desire to feel special, superior, chosen, in other words, spiritual pride. Fear and foolish pride explains most of the prejudice and intolerance in the world, whether it's religious, racial, nationalistic, or just schoolyard bullies.

Look, I've been wiccan for 2-3 years and believe me, I've dealt with my share of predjudice. The answer to your question is human nature. It's human nature to fear what you don't understand. And since no one likes to be afraid the fear becomes hate. I was raised catholic and now my father barely talks to me because of Wicca. Because he refuses to listen to my explanations. He's dead set on believing I'm going to Hell. But what I find very ironic is that the two religios worship the same God. The Christian religion is just to narrow minded to allow for a God-dess. No offense to any Catholics. I'[m not saying you're all narrow minded, just your religion.

No I am sorry many of us do know about wiccan and many of their beliefs, and have helped many of others coming away from it.

But no they do not worship a christian god by any means, and it is not being narrow minded it is just the truth of what the differnece is.

Wicca is not christian, Muslim is not christian, Buddhist is not christian, Christian is christian and they worship different gods.

If a wicca wants to pretend they are christian and believe in their god, they can but it merely shows they don't know their own faith.

Personally, I don't agree that we all worship the same god. Jesus Christ is a very different person then the Goddess, considering she is a women. All religion's DO believe in different god's. Aka different people that they consider worthy of worship. To deny this simple fact is to deny that the world spins on an axis. Christian's need to stop ''preaching'' I'm sick of being told that ''were christian, if you don't follow god then your not going to heaven''. First off, every religion believes that their own IS the RIGHT way and the true way. That is FACT! Fact is when something 100% truth and cannot be otherwise. Look it up in the dictionary. The FACT is EVERY religion worships different gods. What we DO have in common, is that we DO believe in A GOD. We just worship differently. So why can't we all just get along and stop trying to think like Hitler. Hitler thought that German's WERE the perfect race. Christian's think that they're the only true religion. Can't you see? EVERY religion thinks that they're there own true religion. The agreement should be that everyone, has a religion, even beliving in nothing is a religion. So, one day my hope is that the world will be of the same common belief and mindset. That the world will stop fighting over who's god is better. All I know, is that it is not right for anyone to judge or damn someone because of religion. Wicca does not pretend to be anything. That's a statement that thousands of wiccans of any sect would find rude and rasist. Wicca's VERY much know they're faith. I have friend's that are wicca and I've met other's that are too, they ALL know VERY well what they believe. And no, NO christian truly know's what wicca is. You woln't until you talk to someone who follow's the true wicca way. Not some currupted evil person who sacrifices lambs and crap. Wicca is about love, rebirth, and peace. As a x-christian, I'm ashamed to call myself x-christian. It's one of the most rasist and intolerable religions.

You don't have to be Christian to be intolerant of other religions. I know many many very gracious and humble Christians. One does have to be religious however to be like this since those who are of no religion don't have a personal religion to "defend." Some faiths may have more followers like this than others. I have yet to meet a Buddhist who does this, for example. But I don't think any one faith needs to be condemned for it. I tend to think any faith that propagates this is simply mistaken. When I have investigated it, I found its usually not the actual faith but the person's interpretation of it that is flawed. Fortunately, I see evidence that religious tolerance is a growing worldwide movement. That is very good!

I think minority religions all take something of a hit, kind of like that oddball kid in class is the target of some crappy stuff. You only need look here to see Voodoo almost getting clobbered the same way. I sometimes see lots of misunderstanding about Jehovah Witnesses too.

All prejudice is terrible and all prejudice born out of and fueled by ignorance. That's the real enemy to humanity and if I believed there really is a satan (but I do not LOL) I would acknowlege that as his greatest weapon.

I used to not believe in the devil but then I found out that that is the greatest trick satan wants to accomplish. Now I am a middle-aged Christian, and wished for a little while that I could have done without all the crap if I had only believed in Christ instead of myself!

I don't think it's appropriate to say " well, I think you're going to hell bc you aren't a Christian!" This is not for us to exclaim! God is the ultimate judge of someone's soul.
However, I can say that I do not believe that without Christ one will see heaven.

You mention an important fact- that all faiths think their God is the best. Knowledge is power here, and since God spoke and showed miracles to Moses and many of the Old Testament righteous, with written proof in the Dead Sea Scrolls- then this is the one and ONLY God!
Now, you say, don't stop there, but consider who believes in the God of Abraham. Christians, Jews, and Muslims. So, since I question Islam(not the person individually) and it's culture- I consider the Jewish religion. Very close to salvation but I see the fulfillment of the O.T. laws made free through the grace given in Jesus Christ. Of course there were miracles and witnesses and records( the resurrection being the most important )

There are no other true faiths- the rest are about the book the leader of the false religion or cult created.
I'm sorry, but your father is right, he just admonishes you roughly about it- but one thing is for sure- he knows what is RIGHT!

Retrotia, your making no sense, in your comment you said a few things that said together, are hypocritical. First,
{"I don't think it's appropriate to say " well, I think you're going to hell because you aren't a Christian!" This is not for us to exclaim! God is the ultimate judge of someone's soul."} BUT then you said {"There are no other true faiths- the rest are about the book the leader of the false religion or cult created."} That's a judgement right there. Those two staement's together in your post make your post hypocrittical. Just because some books say that God of Abraham is the ONE true god, DOES not mean that HE is. So what your saying basically is, if a person thousands of years ago wrote something like I AM God, then that must mean he's God? Wow, so if I say I'm an alien from Zoltar then it must be true too? Just because a book says something in it, FACT is it doesn't mean it's true. And of course as a christian, you would think that all other religions are false. That's what your supposed to believe as a christian. Look, I was rasied as a christian for 18 years, so I know what is in the bible OK? But the fact is that I am not gulable and intollerant of others beliefs. That is why christians need to look at there reliogion and really think, ''its this right?'' NO its not. It's not right to judge other's as you said, but as you also just did~hypocritically. It's not right to assume you're the master religion. Just like Hitler wasn't right assuming German's were the master race. It's not right to put thoughts in your head that make you treat other's of other religion's differently. It's not right to be rasist of other's religion's and that's what you few christian's are doing. ~Not everyone mind you.~ But ultimatly, that is what your doing, being rasist. By not tolerating other's. You can say your tolerant until your blue in the face, but honestly, as a person as people, are you what you say you are? Are you loving and friendly as you should be to all people? I think not. We all make mistakes. Personally, the biggest one I think many religious people make is being rasist without really knowing it. To deny a friendship with a jew, Buddhist or wiccan. To try to ''convert'' them from their ways. I say converting is wrong. It's because of fear, because of the feeling of superiority, that makes one want to ''convert'' someone. Realisicly, we need to grow up. Every faith is true to themselves, that's FACT! So to deny it is denying that we need air to breathe.

He is not my father, take note that he is a member as you and just posts things. He's not my father. That's insulting. First of all, I have never understood why its called that. Makes no sense to me. But in the future you should choose your words wisely and know what your talking about rather then making no sense.

~Meg

My mother is a Seventh Day Adventist. She only eats kosher foods. It's not like she thinks that someone else who eats a bite of bacan is burning in hell. Thankfully, she's not one of THOSE types of christians.

What's funny about christians is what they believe half the time means jack. My bf's ex (the one that recently had he's baby out of wed lock) and I used to go to the same church. No one pointed a finger at her when she got knocked up. But they practucally stoned me when I started seeing Jon 7 months later.

From what I can see, usually the ones that say things like that to you, or treat you poorly are doing it so that maybe people will look at your "sin" rather than their own that they're hiding. And in my personaly opinoin are probably going to be sitting in the hot seat far before you will.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.

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Well from a Christian's point of view. There are many gods out there, allah, baal etc... but only ONE Jehovah/Yahweh. "the goddess" is not the same as Yahweh. Yahweh is the God of the Bible. In believing in hell/heaven. That is biblical, how can anyone believe in heaven or hell w/o believing in God *Yahweh*? ANYTHING that is NOT of Yahweh (and He specifically detests and condemns witchcraft) is of the only other source out there... Satan. The deeper you get into witchcraft, the more it becomes the early stages of satanism. The evironment: air, water... is all created BY YAHWEH. God did not create any other gods to rule them. He created man to have dominion and rule *for a short time* of earth. My main point... the reason people say that witches are going to hell, is because anything other than worshiping Yahweh is seen through His eyes as turning against Him and siding with His enemy... Lucifer. And Lucifer, the known "god" of satanism is supposedly the brother of Diana... your goddess. Who Diana takes on the form of a black cat to engage in incest with. So, if you're not a christian, if you don't believe in God *Yahweh* then why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell... what are you so worried about? And why does it bother you that people tell you you're going there?

It bothers me, I feel because its not fair to judge people or condem them yourself. I don't know, I'm not sure of anything anymore. I'm tired of life, tired of crying, tired of everything. I clearly don't have a pourpose. And wow, today is my B-day, but who cares its just another day.

You're right. God is the ultimate judge. And I'm not judging you, I'm just coming to the black and white conclusion that's in the bible that whatever is not of God is of the devil. Ya know, I don't agree with wicca, witchcraft or satanism *or any other religion for that matter* but I just encourage you that in whatever religion you choose... get to know all the details and implications of it, so you'll be knowledgeable before you get into something that isn't what you thought. I am a Christian, because I know that although my religion is about serving God and others, my spirituality and religion is about my GOD having a relationship with me too! The God whom I believe created EVERYTHING on earth *in the perfect condition, before it was perverted and cursed*, who took/takes the time to pay attention to EVERY detail in our bodies, the pores on our skin, the flecks of color in our eyes and who can take away life on earth in with one thought, chooses to interact with His creation and he wants an intimate relationship with them. And knowing that He loved me enough to send His only son to die for me so I could be saved eternally, it makes me cry. That's the greatest love, for someone to give up their life for someone else, and that's what Christianity is about. Now, Christians do a sucky job of portraying Christ a lot of times... *I do as well* but I comes down to love... that's what its all about. If everyone showed the same kind of love and service to everyone else like Christ showed us... this world would be the greatest place.

But, please don't lose heart. You HAVE PURPOSE! Even if you don't think so... you have a purpose in Christ. You are so special and meaningful, and if you'd get to know Him and give Him a chance... He'd show you just how much. I don't know if you're one for reading... but the book that changed my life... "A Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. I promise you... *GUARANTEED* if you'll read the whole book... you'll find that you have a purpose and you'll find what it is. If you need anything... holler! Happy Birthday!!

PS-The only reason why I'm so passionately anti-wicca is because my dad was involved... he has researched it for years and researched the connections between wicc/witchcraft and satanism. I've met plenty of witches. Thank God his faith is so strong in God, or other wise he admits he'd be a follower of this religion. I've grown up my whole life around it.

It's fine, I'm not exactly wicca anyway. I'm not anything. I just used it as an example. I was made to go to church for 18 years. Now I'm just finding my way. I don't really care anymore though. I mean, I'm tired of feeling like a piece of crap. But that's for another post that no one wants to hear.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.

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There is only ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD. We are to worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth.
The Bible is the final authority. That's all there is to it.
Finally, we are NOT to worship "a goddess"
The only thing that brings confusion is Satan. The Bible declares that he is the AUTHOR OF CONFUSION!
Please let me encourage you to get back to the Bible; God's Holy Word. That is the only place you will find real truth, peace, contentment, and ETERNAL LIFE.
God Bless You.

Not everyone believe's in god, not everyone want's to follow that path. You are a rude, anoying person. You give christians a bad name. Everything you say is YOUR craked opinion. If you didn't want me to comment on the offensive, then don't make stupid comment's. Your no christian, I was one all my life B/C OF FORCE. Now I can follow my own path, and perhaps refind Jesus in my own time. Til then I don't need anyone bringing me down. God is pround that I am trying to find myself. Trying to love him on my own free will. You are the type who need's to get a life other then religion. Because let me tell you your missing out on life by going around wasting time preaching to the lost who have not will to change or to those who know of what you speack and block out your anoying voice due to frusteratiuon of hearing it. You really know how to p I s s someone off. If you give me or anyone anymore lame, rude, offensive comment's I'm ignoring you. I'll pray that you find god in truth and that he will teach you to be a true fisherman of god. And seeing how your rep is bad, no one wants to hear your crap.

Yea, I know what conviction is and what I'm feeling isn't conviction. ONLY the lord Jesus Christ convict's us of our wrongs. No mortal. I am offended by your comment's, I disagree with the method you are using to show people to Jesus. Jesus, didn't force people to sercome to his will, he loved them, guided them, and taught them at their speed. I've read and studied the bible over the course of 18 years. I'm proud to say I graduated Missionette's, a 4 yr girl's group to become closer to the will of God. I may no longer be a church go-er, but I still believe in one god, who created the heavens. I refuse to be a luke warm christian like my mother. Going to church and pretending to love God and everyone else. Then going home and being a mean cruel person. If I am to be a fisherman of men, I will do it to the best of my ability, when I am clensed of my sins and made new. Til I find my way again I will remain nothing. If I am to lose the most important person (my fiance) in my life due to the will of God, I can't accept that. So now you know a bit more of where I come. I had a calling on my life to be a missionary. Perhaps one day I will be, but until I can love God with my WHOLE heart I will not. My church and grandmother where proud of my choice to put myself out of the church to on day re-join. I REFUSE to be a hypocrite, lukewarm or anything God dislikes once I am a true christian. But, as I said I am finding myself. One thing will always remain, my believe and respect for the one true God who made the world and myself in his image.

I stand very humbly corrected by you, and ask you to forgive me. I mis-read your writings. That is my fault. I have asked the Lord to forgive me, and hope you will to.
God bless you. I will be praying for God's Will in your life.
Very respectfully,
Poppa

Poppa, my writtings were merely to see why people assume other religion's other then there own is that of the work of the devil. I personally worship or will worship differantly then other's. All that truly matter's is what is in the heart. I personally believe that wicca, the true wicca are following everything the right way, except the fact that they think their god is a women. And they don't believe in the death of Jeus to save our sins. If it weren't for that fact they would be the one group of people following the religion the way everyone should. BUT of course they're not, so yes they aren't going to heaven. BUT I'm trying to just make people stop thinking their religion is the master one, that their god is the only one. That's what other religion's think to. What good is this doing? It's certainly NOT bringing anyone to God. It's pushing them further and further away. I may not read the bible, go to church or pray or even follow everything god says. BUT I do believe that he is real, and I do believe if I don't someday go back to him I will burn in hell. Someday I have faith that I will be able to return to God, but not at this time. And trust me, I have the fear of God inside me. He may be an awesome God, loving and caring and forgiving. BUT he is also one of wrath.

I'm agnostic I definitely don't believe in a christian god, and the religion, if I ever decided to follow one, that makes the most sense to me is wicca or a form of paganism. My flat mate is christian and keeps telling me I'm going to hell, rather unchristian if you ask me. Don't get me wrong she is not being spiteful I love her to bits but what gets me is who are the christians on earth to decide who does and does not get into hevean! You are not god/goddess/flying spaghetti monster. I don't like being preached at I like making informed decisions based on my own understanding of the world. And no one yet has come to me with a convincing argument the path I should follow is that of god. I'm not saying he's not real, I'm just pointing out my P.O.V.
Lol I was more open to the whole god idea BEFORE I moved in with a christian though :)

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Originally Posted by u08dc4

I'm agnostic i definatly don't believe in a christian god, and the religion, if i ever decided to follow one, that makes the most sense to me is wicca or a form of paganism. my flat mate is christian and keeps telling me i'm going to hell, rather unchristian if you ask me. Don't get me wrong she is not being spiteful i love her to bits but what gets me is who are the christians on earth to decide who does and does not get into hevean! you are not god/goddess/flying spaghetti monster. i don't like being preached at i like making informed decisions based on my own understanding of the world. and noone yet has come to me with a convincing arguement the the path i should follow is that of god. i'm not saying he's not real, i'm just pointin out my P.O.V.
lol i was more open to the whole god idea BEFORE i moved in with a christian though :)

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Here is another point of view to consider: If there is no God, then there is no heaven or hell either, and the Bible is nothing but a pack of lies. So if you don't believe in God, you have nothing to concern yourself with... EXCEPT......what if you're wrong? What if there is God, and He is the Author of the Bible, and there really is a heaven and hell? Then we have a completely different set of circumstances to consider, because if it is true (and of course it is.....) then...we will be j
Judged by the very words we say we don't believe in.
I am not preaching to you, nor will I try to change your mind. I will only say that one of us is wrong. If I am wrong, then no sweat. IF, HOWEVER, you are wrong, you are in a heap of trouble young man.
I will be praying for you.

Ah but poppa I didn't say I didn't believe in god. I'm agnostic I don't not believe in god, I just don't like the way christianity "mourns its religion" to quote a popular film. I'm very open to the idea that god exists but christians make me not want to be christian (not all christians, I have several friends training to be ministers and I understand and respect their views) I don't however respect the points of views of people who tell me I'm going to hell because I'm open to suggestion. The thing that annoys me is that I don't down right tell people that they are wrong and that evolution is a definite process (which I believe it is) I listen I understand and I agree to disagree. The extreme christians that I know basically look at me in a very patronising way and say that I'm wrong, what I don't understand is why can't they just agree that either one of us could be right about it? Because no one alive can prove either way.

I would believe in an omnipresent god who judged you on who you were rather than what you believe, I think its rather spiteful not to.

Ok my question is poppa do you believe in dinosaurs? Where they in the bible? I've read the bible and they weren't in the one I read lol. So that must mean there is no such thing as a dinosaur... wrong. There is proof that dino's walked the earth and that they evolved into bigger and more dangerous beasts. The world split into two different continents and the dino's on each had to addapt to there new environment. Same as the cave men. They had to addapt. There is so much proof of these things that just because it may go against your religion oh well. In my opinion your religion is wrong then. You can't deny fact. Point is evolution is real. Our bodies change every hundred year or so. Just take a look at the proof.
On another note, you say ''one of us is wrong''. Well what if you're the one who is wrong poppa? Then you've wasted life believing and worshiping a nonesistant god. Dc4 if you were wrong, who cares, you've lived life without service to a god, you wasted nothing. Poppa I've gotten a feel of what people are like on this site. Who they are. I can't tell who you are though. All your words are bible this bible that. God this god that. You need to learn that sure you can be a christian, but you need to have an identity also. You're a thumper that's all. What do you think about life, what do you like, what's your goals? My goodness you don't even act like you have self. You act like you're the voice of god. You need to have a healthy balance of religion and independence. Jesus didn't talk about religion and qoute the bible 100% all the time. He tried to relate to people and to talk to them as man to man friend to friend. Maybe if you'd lighten up a bit and realize not all people will be saved, let the fact that you are and that you've tried confort you. I'm not going to live life wondering if god is going to dislike me if I do this or that. What kind of messed up life is that. You have the right to make good and bad choices, to enjoy life. I fail to see how any christian who is like my gram actually enjoys life. Crazy. My gram thinks I shouldn't be with my fiancé because he's not christian. Who cares? You love who you love. So if your married to someone god doesn't like your stuck being sad for it? My gram thinks that sex should be after marriage. Nah, if you do it out of love then I say do it. Gram says that if you have friends who aren't christian you shouldn't be there friend. No I say befriend everyone. Gram gets in everyone's business and tells them weither or not they are going to hell, weither or not they are living right and buggs them until you want to kill her. I say stfu and let people alone. If you want to be a thumper you don't deserve me as a friend. Trust me your missing out too because I'm a cool person. Stop thinking your superior and that we are lost puppies. Dc4 are you lost? Nope, me neither. I'll stick up for myself. I perosnally think anyone who thinks like my gram is a moron and needs to be spanked. Maybe what religions need is to be treated as we are. Sometime's maybe even tormented. Like we are. You think you know your gods, ha please. They know you, you don't know them. I'm sick of being judged, sick of being mocked, sick of being tormented by people who think they are god. Spare us the pity, spare us the words we don't listen. We've grown numb to the sound of your voice. Numb to your pain. If you want to be a fisherman of man, learn more about Jesus. At this point I feel like I could be a better fisherman. At least I don't lack conversational skills and personality. Kindness, love, conpassion. Bull, if you think you have it.

I'm addressing whomever thinks I'm addressing them. Free country free voice of opinion. Don't like it fine, but I say what I feel and I speak for many who don't speak up or are too chicken. I've gotten this far in life and I think I'm a good person. FU to whomever thinks differently. I will offend if need be. Were offended everyday. It's time we had a voice and speak up.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

Ok my question is poppa do u believe in dinosaurs? Where they in the bible? I've read the bible and they weren't in the one i read lol. So that must mean there is no such thing as a dinosaur.....wrong. There is proof that dino's walked the earth and that they evolved into bigger and more dangerous beasts. The world split into two different continents and the dino's on each had to addapt to there new environment. Same as the cave men. They had to addapt. There is so much proof of these things that just because it may go against your religion oh well. In my opinion your religion is wrong then. You can't deny fact. Point is evolution is real. Our bodies change every hundred year or so. Just take a look at the proof.
On another note, you say ''one of us is wrong''. Well what if your the one who is wrong poppa? Then you've wasted life believing and worshiping a nonesistant god. Dc4 if you were wrong, who cares, you've lived life without service to a god, you wasted nothing. Poppa i've gotten a feel of what ppl are like on this site. Who they are. I can't tell who you are though. All your words are bible this bible that. God this god that. You need to learn that sure you can be a christian, but you need to have an identity also. Your a thumper thats all. What do you think about life, what do you like, what's your goals? My goodness you don't even act like you have self. You act like your the voice of god. You need to have a healthy balence of religion and independance. Jesus didn't talk about religion and qoute the bible 100% all the time. He tried to relate to ppl and to talk to them as man to man friend to friend. Maybe if you'd lighten up a bit and realize not all ppl will be saved, let the fact that you are and that you've tried confort you. I'm not going to live life wondering if god is going to dislike me if i do this or that. What kind of messed up life is that. You have the right to make good and bad choices, to enjoy life. I fail to see how any christian who is like my gram actually enjoys life. Crazy. My gram thinks i shouldnt be with my fiance b/c he's not christian. Who cares? You love who you love. So if your married to someone god doesnt like your stuck being sad for it? My gram thinks that sex should be after marriage. Nah, if you do it out of love then i say do it. Gram says that if you have friends who aren't christian you shouldnt be there friend. No i say befriend everyone. Gram gets in everyone's business and tells them weither or not they are going to hell, weither or not they are living right and buggs them til you want to kill her. I say stfu and let ppl alone. If you want to be a thumper you dont deserve me as a friend. Trust me your missing out too because im a cool person. Stop thinking your superior and that we are lost puppies. Dc4 are you lost? Nope, me neither. I'll stick up for myself. I perosnally think anyone who thinks like my gram is a moron and needs to be spanked. Maybe what religions need is to be treated as we are. Sometime's maybe even tormented. Like we are. You think you know your gods, ha please. They know you, you don't know them. I'm sick of being judged, sick of being mocked, sick of being tormented by ppl who think they are god. Spare us the pity, spare us the words we don't listen. We've grown numb to the sound of your voice. Numb to your pain. If you want to be a fisherman of man, learn more about Jesus. At this point i feel like i could be a better fisherman. At least i dont lack conversational skills and personality. Kindness, love, conpassion. Bull, if u think you have it.

I'm addressing whomever thinks im addressing them. Free country free voice of opinion. Dont like it fine, but i say what i feel and i speak for many who don't speak up or are too chicken. I've gotten this far in life and i think im a good person. FU to whomever thinks differently. I will offend if need be. Were offended everyday. It's time we had a voice and speak up.

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I pray you will mature enough to realize just how immature you are. It's sad and very scary. You think you have it all figured out, don't you? Write me back in about 30 years and you'll have a different point of view, rather than the rebellious one you have now. I am praying for you.
THE BIBLE IS THE ABSOLUTE FINAL AUTHORITY. WHAT YOU OR ME THINK ABOUT WHAT IS SAYS DOESN'T CHANGE IT A BIT. I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, BELIEVE, AND AM DOING MY BEST TO LIVE IT. YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT DOESN'T CHANGE IT. GODS WAYS ARE NOT MAN'S WAYS. THE SOONER PEOPLE ACCEPT THAT, THE SOONER THEY WILL BA ABLE TO GET ALONG IN THIS LIFE.
WHEN I QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE A PART OF ME. I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT I DIDN'T WRITE THEM, I JUST QUOTE THEM. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.
IF THAT SOUNDS HARD, THEN SO BE IT. THE BIBLE DOESN'T "PLAY FAVORITES" OR "TAKE SIDES". IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO APOLOGY FOR THAT. THE BIBLE EVEN TELLS US THAT "PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE".
As for your "Gram", it sounds like she's only to point you in the Bible way.. how can you fault her for that? If she didn't love you, she wouldn't put herself in that position to start with. The Bible says that if we fail to warn people, and they go to hell; then their blood will be on our hands, BUT if we do our part to warn them and they die in their sins, their blood will not be on our hands.
From your writings, it is apparent that you are in fact rebellious. Am I condemning you for that? NO! I love you because you too were created by God, and He wants all of us to be happy. If you find fault with me for that... then I'm truly sorry for you, but never sorry for quoting the Word of God. God bless you.

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Originally Posted by poppa0777

I pray you will mature enough to realize just how immature you are. It's sad and very scary. You think you have it all figured out, don't you? Write me back in about 30 years and you'll have a different point of view, rather than the rebellious one you have now. I am praying for you.
THE BIBLE IS THE ABSOLUTE FINAL AUTHORITY. WHAT YOU OR ME THINK ABOUT WHAT IS SAYS DOESN'T CHANGE IT A BIT. I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, BELIEVE, AND AM DOING MY BEST TO LIVE IT. YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT DOESN'T CHANGE IT. GODS WAYS ARE NOT MAN'S WAYS. THE SOONER PEOPLE ACCEPT THAT, THE SOONER THEY WILL BA ABLE TO GET ALONG IN THIS LIFE.
WHEN I QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE A PART OF ME. I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT I DIDN'T WRITE THEM, I JUST QUOTE THEM. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.
IF THAT SOUNDS HARD, THEN SO BE IT. THE BIBLE DOESN'T "PLAY FAVORITES" OR "TAKE SIDES". IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO APOLOGY FOR THAT. THE BIBLE EVEN TELLS US THAT "PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE".
As for your "Gram", it sounds like she's only to point you in the Bible way...,how can you fault her for that? If she didn't love you, she wouldn't put herself in that position to start with. The Bible says that if we fail to warn people, and they go to hell; then their blood will be on our hands, BUT if we do our part to warn them and they die in their sins, their blood will not be on our hands.
From your writings, it is apparent that you are in fact rebellious. Am I condemning you for that?? NO! I love you because you too were created by God, and He wants all of us to be happy. If you find fault with me for that......then I'm truly sorry for you, but never sorry for quoting the Word of God. God bless you.

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by the way... you must have skjipped over the scripture about the dino's. It's IN THERE!

I'm going to go on the assumption that poppa thinks I'm a misinformed teenager and a boy, which I'm not (I'm not even a teenager). The bible was written by man not god. It may be gods words but it is still man's interperatation of those words, therefore it is fallible. I studied evolutionary biology and I took a church youth group as the youth leader so I have seen things from both sides.

The bible tries makes things black and white but it is full of contradictions, some christians take the word of only christ ignoring all before him, the old testament, but other pick at what they believe and what they don't. God said an eye for an eye, jesus said forgiveness, OK most christians go for new over old there, but what about only eating fish on a Friday, or not eating shellfish these things are just impractical nowadays.

I believe in being a good person and treating others as I would like them to treat me and I go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. At least I know I'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

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Originally Posted by u08dc4

I'm going to go on the assumption that poppa thinks i'm a misinformed teenager and a boy, which i'm not (I'm not even a teenager). The bible was written by man not god. it may be gods words but it is still man's interperatation of those words, therefore it is fallible. i studied evolutionary biology and i took a church youth group as the youth leader so i have seen things from both sides.

the bible tries makes things black and white but it is full of contradictions, some christians take the word of only christ ignoring all before him, the old testament, but other pick and choose at what they believe and what they don't. god said an eye for an eye, jesus said forgiveness, ok most christians go for new over old there, but what about only eating fish on a friday, or not eating shellfish these things are just impractical nowadays.

I believe in being a good person and treating others as i would like them to treat me and i go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. at least i know i'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

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First, I assume nothing about you. The only insight I have was given by your own words, not mine.Secondly, the Bible says it was not written by any man's private intpretation, but by the Holy Ghost. The Bible is therefore completely infallible. The problems start when men interpret the Scriptures "with their own spin" on things. Your very limited studies certainly don't make you an expert if you've already started incorrectly.Thirdly,the Bible does NOT say anything about eating or not eating fish on Fridays. These concepts come from man's religious ideas (the Roman Catholic church to be exact. They are not the authority either. Fourthly, you are confused about the Old and New Testament. Fifthly, as to you being a good person. That's wonderful that you are trying to be a good person, however, Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Bible clearly tells us that "there is none righteous, no not one." If "good intentions" would get us to heaven, then what did Jesus die for? Next, if you don't make it to heaven, it won't be because God doesn't let you in... it will be because of your decision to NOT believe the Bible and obey the Scriptures. Next, where in the world did you get the impression that Hitler was saved? Saved people don't exterminate millions of people. A careful study of his own words prove that he did far more evil and harm to mankind than "one or two bad things in his life" (your words, not mine.
I hope you find the truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. God bless you.

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Originally Posted by u08dc4

I believe in being a good person and treating others as i would like them to treat me and i go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. at least i know i'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

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I'm sorry I just had to interject. Hitler is in Hell. He went to Catholic school & he was part Jewish. He was a distant descendant of Esau.God promised to be at war with Esau & Amalek forever, until their remembrance was stricken from under heaven(see Exodus 17:8-16)
God said, Jacob I have loved , but Esau I have hated(Romans 9:13) (Malachi 1:2-3)
Did 1 0r 2 things bad? Try 6 million! I just don't see your reasoning. Anti-semitism is a sin, & will be judged in the time of "the judgment of nations."
The Judgment of the Living Nations. At the end of the Tribulation Period, after Israel has been judged, the nations of earth will be judged by Christ and His Church. This judgment will not be against individuals but against nations for their treatment of the Jewish people.

First of all, I am offended to be called immature. I proved you wrong before and as I recall you even said that you agreed that you were wrong, so once again you'll need to realized once again your wrong. I'm 21. I've been through more crap then a lot of people have. I've learned life lessons the hard way. I don't have the answers to everything. There are many things that I would like to still learn, but when I know something that is fact, its fact weither you like it or not. I voice my opinion weither you like it or not. I'm strong enough to not let you or any other religious fanatic try to fear me into a bogus religion. If this is what you want to show people about your religion, then don't expect people to convert anytime soon. You have a lot of things wrong. I was a christian for 18 years, I know the bible very well so when you try to qoute faulse or exaturated things I'm going to laugh in your face and say wrong! At least know of what you speak, and at least follow your own religion the currect way. Would Jesus like the way you or any of you are acting? No, he'd be ashamed. You force people to feel bad, force people to conform and force people to feel weak. I'm not weak, I'm not a subject to be toyed with, I'm not a slave and I most certainly am not going to be a product of insanity. So.. I'm more mature then you are. You want to fling the bible around and act like your high and mighty. Your just upset because I rocked the foundations of what you think, you don't want to listen to reason or reality. You'd rather live in the dark rather then free yourslef and live in the light. Get off your throne. You qoute false words, I've read the bible and you twist it Retrotia and Poppa. In my opinion you need help because it seems a few screws are lose. Don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I think that your seriously in need of a reality check. No one care's what you say because in the end we will believe what we believe. You thought I didn't know the bbile? Well I can fling it better then you if I need to.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Firstly "one or two bad things" was meant to be sarcastic! I most definitely don't agree with anything hitler did! And I'm fully aware that he was probably one of the most evil men in history, right up there with Stalin. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted.

But Hitler did do those things and did believe in God and that Jesus died for his sins. My interpretation of your previous words was that as long as you accept god and jesus you would go to heaven and your sins forgiven. I was just pointing out that, that probably wasn't the only way to get in or out. Nothing meant personally I really do hope Hitler is in hell if there is one.

Retoria, one thing that confuses me, and I don't claim to be an expert, and my knowledge and understandings of catholicism as poppa quite rightly pointed out is limited, is that you said all Esua descendants are going to hell, does that mean even if they are good? As god gave them free will?

I also agree with poppa that the problems do arise when people start to put their own spin on things and when they interpret things differently from others, that was the point I was trying to make. I believe in some power higher than my own I do not however want that tainted by views which I can't agree with on a personal level. I have found this within the catholic church, its not the catholic persons fault, its my interpretation of how I would want people to treat me and hence how I treat them. For example I would never tell someone who was confused about their religious views that they were down right going to hell. People have questions and others have answers but I don't like scare tactics.

I've grown up around people who treat their religion terribly (protestant catholic sectarianism is very violent where I live) perhaps now you'll understand why I don't like how different groups interpret the bible in different ways.