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I direct these questions to Christians, but any may answer. As a preface to your answer please tell me if you are or are not a Christian. FYI, I am a Christian.
1. Do you believe in evolution?
2. Do you believe in the "gap theory?"
3. Do you believe the 6 days of creation were 24 hour days or longer periods?
You may answer one, two, or all three of these questions if you desire. I am very interested in your answers and why you believe as you do.
Thank you,
Phil Debenham
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
1. Only to the point that things within its species evolves slightly.
2. gap, sorry not up on that one, but I believe in a young earth idea not the old earth. If the earth is that old, which I don't believe it is, the only result was adam and eve was in the garden a lot longer than I would have believed
3. Yes, God created the time, day and night, so why not
Phil Debe
I am a child of God.
1. My answer to that would be about the same as chucks.
2. What is the gap theory?
3. I guess it could have been a whole day. I wasn't there.
Fr. Chuck,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
1. While changes within the kinds is often referred to as "evolution," but that is not truly evolution in the Darwinian molecules to man sense of the term. I agree that there are changes within a kind, but not changes from one kind to another.
2. The gap theory is a theological invention which states that there is a gap of an indeterminate period between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The theory was developed to account for the so called geologic ages which set the earth as millions of years old.
3. There are many good theologians who believe that the days of creation stand for ages rather than normal days. Like you, I disagree with them.
Thanks for your reply,
Phil Debenham
PS: While you did not state it, I assume you to be a Christian.
Crankiebabie,Quote:
Originally Posted by crankiebabie
I am afraid that I do not understand what you mean by "I am a child of God."
Please see my response to Fr. Chuck on questions 1 and 2. As to question 3, I know you weren't there. My question concerned your undersanding of the word "day" in Genesis 1. Perhaps you should read it before attempting an opinion?
Thank you,
Phil Debenham
I hope I don't sound rude, as that is not my intention at all, but why do you need people to tell you whether they are a Christian or not? Just curious, because the questions you're asking about the gap theory, 6 days of creation... are based on the Judeo-Christian Bible anyhow. Orthodox Jews and I imagine many Muslims believe similar things (since their scriptures are similar), but people of faiths that don't use this Bible would believe their own creation stories rather than those of Genesis. And of course atheists wouldn't believe in any kind of divine intervention at all. But maybe I'm missing the point? I don't know, just curious... hope you aren't offended.
Well I mean just that I am a child of God. But, if I must put a lable on it then you could call me a Christian. From what I can remember being told is the days back then were not 24 hr days but I think the days were shorter or were they longer? Im really not a bible reader for certain reasons but I guess I better get to studying because I don't know too much about genesis except for some things were created and god took a lunch break on the sabbath.
LOLL! That's great, haha! I was feeling kind of blah tonight and that's really funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by crankiebabie
Genesis actually covers a LOT of ground... creation, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the story of Noah's Ark, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Esau... and a bit of Joseph and his coat of many colors I think too. But then after Exodus (which has stuff on Moses and Egypt) it gets pretty dull... all those laws in Leviticus really put me to sleep.
Anyway thanks for making me laugh. :)
This simple reason for telling me whether you are a Christian or not is so that I may understand where you are coming from prior to reading your answer. If you are not Christian (perhaps I should have included the Jewish faith as well) then I know right off the bat that you do not hold the book of Genesis as the word of God. It was not meant to judge another, but to understand ones bias and, therefore, better understand their answers. We all have biases. I am a Christian. Therefore you, knowing my faith, will know that I approach the subject of evolution from a particular bias. Consequently you will better understand my viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by orange
Questions 2 and 3 concern the bible. Knowing how one views the bible is to better understand that persons answer.
As I said at the beginning of the question, this question is directed at Christians, primarily. Christians today have been "evolutionized." That is to say that their belief systems, by and large, have been influenced by the religion of science. I am interesed in understanding those who have been "evolutionized."
I pray that I have not offended you, I certainly did not mean to.
Phil Debenham
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
1 for me. I used to be a Christian but no longer.
So what are you now?Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968
Oh no that's cool... I'm not offended. I just didn't really understand why you were asking... I thought maybe you were doing a survey or something! ;) But I get it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
To answer your question, it's a little complicated in my case. I was born to Jewish parents, but went into permanent foster care at age 4. So, I lived in a variety of different homes over the years, some Jewish, some Christian, some agnostic... some really conservative and some really liberal. Then I've tried out a few religions on my own as an adult, but never really stuck to anything. I'm 26 now, and I consider myself an agnostic, although I celebrate Jewish holidays.
I spent 2 years in an evangelical Christian home and was sent to the school that was run by my foster parent's church. We learned all about the creation story, etc, but even then (I was 9-11 at the time), I wondered if the story of how God created the world was really true or not. It didn't seem logical to me. I've always leaned towards the scientific explanations, and I really believe that the creation story is a just a story that was told in a way that would make sense to ancient / primitive people, so that they would know where they came from. Right now I don't know what I believe about God, but I do think there is some kind of Higher Being that created things, but I also believe in evolution at the same time... like, I think evolution really happened (is happening!) but that if there is a God, he/she had a hand in starting it. I don't have any trouble putting the two together like that. Actually I don't understand what's wrong with believing in both evolution and that God created the world. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, in my mind anyway...
I hadn't heard of the gap theory, but with my way of thinking, it's not really relevant, because I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve anyway. And of course I don't believe in 6 days of creation, either. Again, my belief is that it was just a way of explaining the world to ancient people.
I, also am Christian.Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
1. I believe in some of evolution - that life forms can and do adapt to their environment over time.
2 & 3. I am confident that Genesis is not all to be taken literally, but am also not confident that we can ever know what is and what is not literal.
For me, it's 95% surety that the 6 days of creation were not 24 hour periods.
Rickj,Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
Thank you for your reply. I would very much like to discuss this with you. I will tell you up front that I disagree with you nearly completely on your answer. Please do not take that to mean I am hostile toward you, I am not. However, I do desire to understand your point of view, and in the process of that I shall share mine and the reasons for it.
Your statement on question #1 I believe I agree with. If it means that there are changes within a kind, but not changes from one kind to another. That is, there is natural selection within kinds. I do not, however, believe in Dawinian or neo-Darwinian "molecules to man" evolution. Do you agree with that?
Clearly we disagree in our answers to questions 2 and 3. Would you please explain a little why you believe that Genesis is not to be taken literally? And also why you think the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1 should not be taken literally?
I look forward to your response,
Phil Debenham
I never take offense to one disagreeing with me :D
You and I are in full agreement there.Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
It's not that I believe Genesis "is not to be taken literally", it's just that I recognize that there are many different types of writings in the Bible: Poetry, Parable, History, Genealogy, Illustrations, Alliterations, Similie, Metaphor, etc... so recognize that it is not every author's attempt, in every single section, to give a historic factual account of something.Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
I am firmly convinced that God could have created the Universe in six 24-hour periods... but if I take that literally, then I should also be able to take literally the timeline from Creation to Noah, and the genealogy from Noah to Christ... and therefore put creation at only about 6000 years old.
I do believe that the laws of nature that we observe (which, yes, were "set up" by God) show that the Universe is much, much older than this.
... so if that is true, then there must be something about the creation story - or the timeline - that must not be literal.
That, really, would be the "short version" of my answer.
Am I making sense?
Let me add some Scriptural references.
1. Christ's words
"that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8; cf. Ps. 90:4)
2. light was created on the first day, but the sun was not created till the fourth day (Gen. 1:3, 16),
3. Adam was told he would die the same "day" as he ate of the tree, yet he lived to be 930 years old (Gen. 2:17, 5:5).
No, these things do not address the issue specifically, but show how difficult things would be if we took every jot and tittle literally...
Rickj, your answers are right on, and you explain them so well! This is basically what I believe too, although I'm not sure what I think about God at this point.
What do you mean "what I think about God?"
Do you mean whether there is a God or not?
I think it's much easier to believe that the Universe was created than
1. It all sprang up out of nothing, or that somehow
2. It has always been.
Anything with design has a designer.
So, in short, I think that it requires more faith to be an Atheist than it does to be a Theist.
No, I think there's a God, I'm not sure Who or What... if that makes any sense. I'm sort in a questioning stage. And I would consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. Atheists are SURE there is no God and I could never be sure of that! I agree with you totally on that point.
I guess it's more a question of what RELIGION I should belong to, rather than whether I believe in God. Actually if I was going to be Christian though, I would likely be Catholic because of the time I spent in a Catholic boarding school, which was very good for me. I admired the nuns and I was treated well. I liked the mass and the various customs, and it gives me a feeling of "nostagia" whenever I go to an RC Church (which is not often though! ). But I wouldn't feel right at this point, actually becoming a Catholic, just based on my "nice" feelings. I want to have faith, and I'm not sure it's there.
I'm sure a lot of my confusion has to do with the way I was raised... nothing was permanent for me. But hopefully I will sort it out eventually!
Let me, then, have you consider these this:
The Apostles and early Christians who risked horrible, horrible deaths to proclaim what Christ did, taught and said He was were either
1. delusional,
2. liars, or
3. telling folks about accurate events.
I believe that a logical and historical look at each of these options shows the near impossibility of the first two.
Yes I know that argument Rick and it's a good one, but I can't help thinking that there could be a number 4... that they lived a long time ago, in the days before science and technology, and believed in the supernatural / miracles a lot easier than people do now, because their world was so limited. That doesn't make them crazy or liars, but more naïve, if that's the right word? Anyway thanks for responding so quickly to my post!
I would call your option #4 the same as delusional.
I do not believe that people, in general, were more gullable - or less intellegent - then, than they are now.
Okay a question. Gods son name is Jesus but I never hear God called anything but God. What is his actual name or is that another mystery Ill have to investigate? Does it say in the bible?
Well I don't think they were more gullible or less intelligent, either... but I do think their world was a lot smaller than ours. I mean, for example, people in a primitive society might think TV was witchcraft, or if they saw an airplane in the sky they might think it was giant flying bird or a sign from God. It's not that they're stupid, they've just had a different experience than us. On the flip side of things, maybe that was good for them because they had a lot less doubt and temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
There are many "names" for God.Quote:
Originally Posted by crankiebabie
Here are two interesting articles:
http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=220
Well God apparently has a real name... YHVH... yud hey vov hey in Hebrew (there are no vowels)... but I was taught as a Jew that you're not to say it out loud. Christians do say it out loud, though... or an interpretation of it at least, adding vowels to make it "Yahweh". He's also called Jehovah, and some other things too that I can't recall right now. Hopefully Rick can help you, if he's not sick of this thread right now that is! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by crankiebabie
Oops he already answered... thanks Rick. I will check out the links too.
Cool sites. I feel for that dude. That is a lot of names. Imagine when he has to sign his name to stuff.
LMAO!! You should be a commedian, you always say such good funny things! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by crankiebabie
I am a Christian
1) I do not believe in the Darwinian evolution
2) I haven't heard any logical reason to believe the gap theory.
3)I haven't heard any other logical reason to believe in anything but the 6 days being a 24 hour period.
The reason for #2 and #3 being "heard" is because, to be honest, I don't go through the millions and millions of research it requires to figure all this out in the hebrew and poosibly in the greek. I do, like many others, have to rely on pastors and others who do this research to help me sift out all the bull and take the things that are actual truth.
I am not religious at all although I believe in God's existence as the creator of universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainForest
Tell me why?Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968
1. You cannot use the greek word for "day" to interpret the hebrew word for "day." Also, the last part of the verse cancels out the first part of the verse if you are trying to apply it to Genesis 1. This verse in no way applies.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
2. The sun is not needed for light. God spoke and there was light. God did not need the sun.
3. The Hebrew word for day can mean a longer period (but it can't mean millions of years), but it can also mean "day." In fact that is it's main meaning. After Genesis 1 every time the word day is used with the words "morning and evening" it means a 24 hour day. Every time it is used with either "moring" or "evening" it means a 24 hour day. Every time it is used with a number it means a 24 hour day. Now look back to Genesis 1. What do we see? Morning, evening, number, day; morning, evening, number, day; morning, evening, number, day... I don't think God could have mad it much clearer.
4. Why do you doubt that God means exactly what He says in Genesis 1? Is it because "science" has "proved" the cosmos is billions of years old?
Growing up, I ended up going to a Christian school and was told/taught to be one. As I grew older and studied various aspects of Christianity in earnest, I began to doubt. Then, like many others have seen before me, I saw hypocritical side of Church and churchgoers. In almost every church I went to, there have been some form of power struggle over the control of church or money or both. I've seen ministers ending up abusing children (a 45 year old married minister running away with 14 year old girl, etc). I've seen churches which became more of a social function organization than a place of worship - a money making factory rather than a place to gather and worship. It really turned me off and finally pushed me over to the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
I guess I didn't have strong faith to start with before things pushed me over.
I know what you mean, rkim... as an adult I was in a born-again Christian church for 2 years, but then our pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The charges were never proven, but the church split, with half of the people going with the pastor and the other half starting another church. I had friends on both sides of the fight, but people with very spiteful and "un-Christian" with each other after the split, and I was expected to choose a side. Some "friends" stopped speaking to me because I went to the side of the church that they disapproved. Finally I just couldn't stand all the fighting and hatred so I just left.Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968
This kind of thing happens in all religions, and with organizations in general, but it sure turns you off everything! I have no desire to go anywhere at this point.
Genesis is a history book. That is the way it is quoted numerous times, even by Jesus Himself, in the New Testament. It should be understood as Jesus understood it, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
6000 to about 1000 years old (accounting for genealogical gaps). What makes you think it is older than that?
What "laws of nature" show that the universe is much, much older than this? In truth, there are none.
I see. You are one of the walking wounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968
You went to a Christian school, but that does not make you a Christian.
You went to church, but that does not make you a Christian.
You saw a lot of garbage from those who, like you, claimed to be Christian, but claiming to be Christian does not make you (or them) a Christian.
Christianity is not between you and the church, school, or ministers. Christianity is a relationship between you and God through Jesus Christ. You have tried "churchianity." Perhaps it's time to give God a try?
In Love,
Phil Debenham
Yeah, it happens too often. Perhaps, we went to a same church. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by orange
I agree. Now if only Churchgoers believe that, we won't have too much hypocrisy associated with Christianity. (I didn't mean to sound bitter - I am not. Pardon my wording in advance.)Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
:cool:How do you account for the millions of fossils that have been found through out the world and the human skulls of extinct people,the cave drawings? These are real and they tell a story spanning millions of years.Everything I've seen points to Good Orderly Direction to get us to the point we are now.As humans we can believe anything we want,but to ignore that which is front of us just because we can't explain it, is to miss valuable information to make an informed opinion.God could have just as easily design this whole thing through methods only He could know and our human minds cannot even grasp the wonders of what has been done.I don't know how it was done but I believe He done it!?Quote:
Originally Posted by phildebenham
Fossils are deposited in layers throughout the world. Paleontologist and Geologists will tell you that these are proof that the earth is billions of years old. It is not proof. Where the Evolutionist and the Creationist will agree is with the facts. There are fossils and human skulls of dead (not extinct) people, and cave drawings. How these facts came to be back before we were around is where we disagree. The evolutionist reads these facts through evolution lensed glasses. They assume evolution to be a fact and therefore bring their bias to the facts. The creationist does the same thing with creation lensed glasses. However, the creationist model fits the facts and the evolution model does not. We have millions of dead things buried in layers deposited by water all over the earth. If there were a global flood as we find in Genesis, what would you expect to find? Answer: Millions of dead things buried in layers deposited by water all over the earth. Now you have stated that these things tell a story spanning millions of years. How do you know that? Where did you come up with "millions of years?"Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Yes, "God could have just as easily design this whole thing thru methods only He could know and our human minds cannot even grasp the wonders of what has been done," but He didn't. He has told us how He did it in Genesis and everything in Genesis fits the facts we observe in the world. How is it that you can believe that God created but could not easily communicate to us how that was done?
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