It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that there are different lines for different Gods?
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It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that there are different lines for different Gods?
That is the whole point of the question, Tal. We are NOT throwing the books away. We are reading them. The Bible & the Qur'an here. And if you insist on it - yes, there are different "lines" for different gods- exactly why Allah is not the God of the Bible. So, with your non-religious statement we're back to square one-the separating factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
There is a difference between them(Qur'an & the Bible)
I proposed that some non-Muslim leaders said that there were 17 verses in the Qur'an that were violent(and should be removed) Of course they have similarities, but even one verse promoting violence is too much.
You keep going back to that tired argument that has been squashed. And your statement about the different Gods goes against your own religion. My point that below the hard core adherence to the dogma that there are MORE similarities than differences. And no matter how you push the so called separating factor your argument falls way short or do you want to continue the dance around the obvious here, You no nothing about Islam or the Koran but can only spout misinformed ,prejudicial newspaper quotes so you can shroud yourself in self righteous ignorance of fact that not only is erroneous but has no basis in fact. That you doggedly hold on to your book which I question your understanding of, to point out irrelevant information and belief and dismiss other fact presented already destroys the whole discussion. You can't reason with a closed mind. But it will be interesting to see which line your in when you meet your maker.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
No, you keep going back to your tired, boring arguments because you disagree. We cannot have a debate when you are so inclined to poke fun at the one who you disagree with. You are closed minded because of your ego, for what that is worth. You come in on a conversation & spew absolute grade school knowledge that doesn't have any idea of the Bible or Qur'an. You like to get right in the middle & twist the words to suit your own ego. True, I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
But the Bible- I know a great deal about. Much more than you know now preppy.
Don't twist the words & don't insult me. I feel sorry for you BTW, because it is you who has to worry about "standing before God" I'm covered with the blood of Jesus. Are you?
No, I think you are counting on your own will. Ego is part of the soul. You are out of alignment. Your spirit must be first. You need Jesus first- not yourself.
If you'd be quiet for a while, we might hear more about the Qur'an/Koran. I wonder if you can control it, at least with the superego--maybe we could actually learn something.
Islam would rather be covered in the blood of Christians than the Blood of Christ.
In the name of Jesus and the blood of Christ, I pray for the misguided souls of Islam to accept Jesus Christ, the one true Son of GOD, lord and Savior! That and only that will make us brothers and allow us peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
"You know it. I know it"
One has to be uttterly conceited and deluded to tell another person what they know or to what they might agree.
I do not agree unless I say I do, and I do not know what you think I know unless I say I do. OK?
You sound just like the hard headed fundamentalist who reek terror and ignorance on an unsuspecting population in the name of God but have no clues at all That you both (Islam/Christianity) spew the same stuff that has divided man all along. So I guess you have proved my point that all of you book heads scream and holler at each other, but are not smart enough to know your screaming and hollering about the same thing. So keep pointing fingers and wrap yourself with who's ever blood you need to, but it makes me no difference. Stick your nose back in the book, where you are happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
How can anyone tell what you were thinking (in reserve) unless you tell everything and qualify your statements so that they cannot be misunderstood? It is your respionsibility to ensure that you speak plainly, to the point, on the subject, and if you must rebut, then do it with evidence and reasoned argument, and not with a flurry of unsupported opinion.
If you make a statement, you must either support it or else withdraw it, but to make increasingly extravagant claims to justify it by saying you meant something other than what you actually said gives the impression that you are merely quarrelsome.
Do you stand by your statement that the Bible contains no direction to anyone to do violence to anyone? Or do you withdraw it?
I expected the rehetoric to follow and I will tell you, your having a teaching degree does not impress me in the least. As a matter of a fact, it scares me. First of all, you won't be teaching my children evolution and secondly, I am very careful about the claims people make as to their education for the simple reason that I have know many eduated idiots in my time. And of course, an empirical wizard such as yourself will know nothing of the matters of the heart, other than heart disease of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
According to the Bible, the atonement of Jesus Christ was a universal gift. God is more generous in applying it to humanity than are some of his reputed supporters. Who speaks for God in this debate?
"Believing not" is not the same as not believing. If death was the terminal point of opportunity for men to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour, what happens to all those who lived before the birth of Jesus, and to all those who have lived and do live in parts of the world where the name of Jesus has not been heard? Are they not also the children of a loving God?
Jesus came to be an infinite atonement and, by the shedding of his blood insuring to every creature immortality, because Redemption had to be as universal as the Fall. Further, we must never forget that, whatever we are moved to believe, the ultimate judge of who will and who will not be saved is in the hands of God and Christ alone. No minister has the power to determine otherwise.
It is sobering to consider the fate of those who claim to be followers of Christ but whose example and behavior have turned away many good people from embracing Jesus Christ as their saviour and redeemer. Whether among these is heaven bound?
I really do appreciate and admire your attempt to bring a voice of reason and balance to this orgy of Muslim/Allah/Koran bashing, but surely you realize by now that you can't reason with and debate these folks. If you make a point or ask a pointed question that exposes a fallacy in their stream of blather, they will ignore it and go off on yet another unrelated tangent of hyperbole, accusation and innuendo. But in spite of the hopelessnes of making a dent in their self-imprisoning armor, your attempts do serve the admirable purpose of showing that not all Christians are so arrogant and self-deluded that they can't see that others' beliefs, though different from their own, are worthy of respect. For that, I salute and thank you most kindly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
Statements such as above are not a bit different than what Bin laden preaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
If I was the type that prayed my pray would be --O god protect me from your followers
--Savage
It was either Tweedledum or Tweedledee who said, "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to say: nothing more, nothing less!"
With that in mind, I offer the following:
Heart Pronunciation (härt) noun
1. Anatomy
a. The chambered muscular organ in vertebrates that pumps blood received from the veins into the arteries, thereby maintaining the flow of blood through the entire circulatory system.
b. A similarly functioning structure in invertebrates.
2. The area that is the approximate location of the heart in the body; the breast.
3.
a. The vital center and source of one's being, emotions, and sensibilities.
b. The repository of one's deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs: an appeal from the heart; a subject dear to her heart.
c. The seat of the intellect or imagination: the worst atrocities the human heart could devise.
4.
a. Emotional constitution, basic disposition, or character: a man after my own heart.
b. One's prevailing mood or current inclination: We were light of heart.
5.
a. Capacity for sympathy or generosity; compassion: a leader who seems to have no heart.
b. Love; affection: The child won my heart.
6.
a. Courage; resolution; fortitude: The soldiers lost heart and retreated.
b. The firmness of will or the callousness required to carry out an unpleasant task or responsibility: hadn't the heart to send them away without food.
7. A person esteemed or admired as lovable, loyal, or courageous: a dear heart.
8.
a. The central or innermost physical part of a place or region: the heart of the financial district. See Synonyms at center.
b. The core of a plant, fruit, or vegetable: hearts of palm.
9. The most important or essential part: get to the heart of the matter.
10. A conventional two-lobed representation of the heart, usually colored red or pink.
11. Games
a. A red, heart-shaped figure on certain playing cards.
b. A playing card with this figure.
c. hearts (used with a sing. Or pl. verb) The suit of cards represented by this figure.
d. A card game in which the object is either to avoid hearts when taking tricks or to take all the hearts.
tr.v. heart·ed, heart·ing, hearts
Archaic: To encourage; hearten.
Idioms:
at heart
In one's deepest feelings; fundamentally.
by heart
Learned by rote; memorized word for word.
do (one's) heart good
To lift one's spirits; make one happy.
from the bottom/depths of (one's) heart
With the deepest appreciation; most sincerely.
have (one's) heart in (one's) mouth
To be extremely frightened or anxious.
have (one's) heart in the right place
To be well-intentioned.
heart and soul
Completely; entirely.
in (one's) heart of hearts
In the seat of one's truest feelings.
lose (one's) heart to
To fall in love with.
near/close to (one's) heart
Loved by or important to one.
steal (someone's) heart
To win one's affection or love.
take to heart
To take seriously and be affected or troubled by: Don't take my criticism to heart.
to (one's) heart's content
To one's entire satisfaction, without limitation.
wear (one's) heart on (one's) sleeve
To show one's feelings clearly and openly by one's behavior.
with all (one's) heart
1. With great willingness or pleasure.
2. With the deepest feeling or devotion.
With half a heart = In a half-hearted manner.
[Middle English hert, from Old English heorte
Glad it is that I am, that none of us is heartless.
(The Barn of Avon)
:)
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It is not really difficult to discover who speaks with which voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
God and Jesus are the reconcilers, whereas Satan has been called 'the crow-bar' because he pries people apart.
QED
What would you do if all the Books had been destroyed? To what source would you turn for guidance in matters spiritual?Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
M:)RGANITE
From 31pumpkin
What if he knows less than you do? So you would follow as a sheep and repeat the rhetoric of your leader. That is exactly what is occurring in Islam so another point as to the similarity of these two religions.Quote:
I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.
So I guess all the verses Morganite has prooffered don't count?Quote:
But even one verse promoting violence is too much.
What I 'think' has no bearing on the case in point, because it is certain that some modern day murderers and child beaters take their instruction from the pages of the Bible. I have provided you with ample evidence of the fact, but you will not admit that evidence into consideration, and find what I consider to be lame and concocted excuses to bar them from the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
To clear the way for a reasoned discussion on an important matter, will you please point out which books or verses of books in the Bible you wish to 'count out' or ignore completely, so that I can either avoid them in offering examples to show where you have erred, or else join you in the denial of things that I know to be factual but am too partisan to admit to: namely, that there are passages in the Bible that direct men do violence and commit murder.
Once I have your list, I will see whether the rump of the Bible is clean enough from promoting us to commit depredations that then render it a morally superior work to al Qu'ran.
The 'accursed thing' was introduced into the camp of Israel by the Israelites themselves and not by the Aiites, and this was done in direct contravention of the command given to them by God. One of the soldiers disobeyed. He took a garment upon which the curse rested. He also took some of the silver and gold and hid them in his tent.
If the Book of Joshua is accurate, it makes it appear that God commanded Joshua's army to slaughter civilian non-combatants, including old men, women, and children as a punishment for somehting that the Israelites had done. Doesn't that cause you at least one moment of disquiet?
When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they [are] hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it. So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, [it was] hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
What wrong had Achan's sons, daughters, oxen, asses, sheep, and tent done that they should be stoned and burnt?
M:)RGANITE
As a point of clarification, isn't changing slowly over billions of years the same as evolving?Quote:
Originally Posted by teacherman
I don't wish to be too picky here, but science is about finding out. Inferences are not as strong as what can be proven, and scientists might use inferences only as points of departure to lead them to discover what is and what is not true. Perhaps you will agree to omit semantic digs (unless they are essential), rather than use them to score points from the opposition, and address the issue at hand as a priority.
Yes?
M:)
"31pumpkin agrees: Right. They don't count. He took everything out of context to what I meant."
Is it me or is that the standard response everytime you offer up a bible quote that counters their argument? It's always "taken out of context".
First, it wasn't I that offered up all those Bible quotes if you look. Morganite is countering with verses from the Bible. Except there is no comparison when a Christian looks at entire scripture in relation to the Bible's verses. Instead I am countering the Koran.
The Koran takes the "7th century warrior"-Mohammed & canonizes him as the supreme example of human behavior. So instead of being a 7th century warfare pattern that we ought not follow,( Mohammed) becomes the model for how we should always behave. So this is the defect, and the difficulty.
Islam-Terrorism, Inc.
31pumpkinFirst, it wasn't I that offered up all those Bible quotes if you look. Morganite is countering with verses from the Bible. Except there is no comparison when a Christian looks at entire scripture in relation to the Bible's verses. Instead I am countering the Koran.
By your own admission you know nothing of the KORAN, except what some Christian leader has told you, and offer the violent scriptures of the Koran as proof that it must be wrong. Yet when you are presented with facts that the bible does the same thing as the Koran, have violent passages, you pass over that as if it was justified (the same dribble comes from Islam) That is bias, unfair, and illogical. I submit to you that the sheep of the bible and the sheep of Islam are doing the same thing.
The Koran takes the "7th century warrior"-Mohammed & canonizes him as the supreme example of human behavior. So instead of being a 7th century warfare pattern that we ought not follow,( Mohammed) becomes the model for how we should always behave. So this is the defect, and the difficulty.
Islam-Terrorism, Inc.
Without knowing more about the subject instead of telling us what is false, as Mohammad is portrayed as much more than a warrior, get to know the whole truth and not just pick out a part of the story to use to denigrate some one else. That is your defect. Your difficulty is either you don't see it or won't admit it. A closed mind can learn nothing.
By the way the site you refer to is propaganda and false if you need legitamate sites let me know when your mind is open to learn the truth as defined by history.
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