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Can I ask you a question BiWiccanAndProud?
What is it about Wicca?
People are drawn to a belief system for a reason.
What drew you to Wicca?

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The freedom. That's what drew me to Wicca, the freedom. There are no set rules that you have to follow (such as when you can start dating or when to have sex or what your sexuality should be). You make Wicca into what you want it to be. You write your own spells your own rituals and you make your own decisions. I love nature so that's another thing that drew me to it, the worship of nature, the thing that keeps us living that a lot of people take for granted. It is such a respectful, open, and beautiful belief. The other thing that drew me in was the magic (no I don't mean casting spells or pulling bunies out of hats), when I went on my spiritual journey to find my deity it was... amazing... Even though I have a great love for nature after I became Wicca everything is enlightened so much more for me. It's so hard to explain just what it's like to walk and actually feel the elements around me. It's an amazing religion and I love it and believe in it with all that's in me.

Beatlejuice I don't think I have all the answers to life and when I was in the deepest of despare there was no God there to help me and I saw no one. I have come close to suicide twice you want to know what kept me back? My brothers and sisters, the thought of them not having me there kept me back. I saw no god "he" has never revealed himself to me. Yet you say he shows himself to those who need saving and those who are "humble enough to admit they dont' ahve all the answers".

Edit:
I am not trying to disprove the existence of your god I am just saying, because he reveals himself to you in your darkest hour does not mean he does to all if they follow him.

I'd just like to point out that I, too, am Wiccan.

I've had encounters with both the Lord and Lady in my religion. I've not hit a rock bottom point in my life--it's just that a big part of my religion is the closeness one can feel to the God and Goddess, to the point where you can and do have encounters with them on a regular basis.

I'm not going to hell (I don't believe in hell). I'm certainly not ignorant and need to be taught about Christ--I was raised by Christian parents. Besides... most of the major traditions in Christianity are stolen from pagan religions like Wicca anyway. (The early Christian leaders decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em sort of thing--they incorporated pagan traditions to convert the pagans).

Unfortunately, Christians are taught as one of their fundamental beliefs that there IS no other "true" religion. "I the Lord your God am a jealous God. You shall have no other gods before me" and all that jazz. It makes them intolerant, because they simply can't believe that there is another god out there--THEIR god told them he was the ONLY god, and if you can't trust your god, then who CAN you trust?

Biwiccan, just try not to discuss religion with religious people. It only ends up in headaches and hurt feelings.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. What matters is that I don't go around saying I have the "TRUTH" and you are going to hell.

Are you seriously choosing a religion because it's the most popular? I really don't care what you choose just keep it to yourself and let others have theirs, in peace.

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No I am not a Christian because it is the most popular. I told why I am a Christian. It just so happens it is the most prominent but that's not why I believe it. But NeedKarma you sound like a very bitter person. Why are you getting so emotional and derrogative about this discussion? We are all here voicing our opinions and I think you are taking it too personally. I have not seen anyone on this forcing you to believe in Christ. We are just saying what we believe just like you are also voicing yours. Don't ask me to keep my beliefs to myself and yet you are making yours known. Because I could also say you are pushing your beliefs on others too. I can also call you an "athiest thumper" too because you are just as passionate about your beliefes. We are just having a discussion like mature adults, lets keep that way.there is not need to be hypocritycal and name calling.

I've seen you in threads before Synnen I didn't realize you were Wiccan though :). Hey mind if I ask you a few questions about Samhain? Me and my friend are celebrating but her celebrations always turn out rather dull cause she does not write her own rituals she gets them from a book (I've tried to tell her they are not as affective that way but oh well). Would you mind telling me what you do to celebrate? I really would like for this holiday to turn out better then Lunasadah did (doubt I spelled it right >.< I can't ever remember how to spell that name). Also are you into crystal healing?

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Beatlejuice you too were getting emotional early on in the conversation, you were taking it very personally earlier yourself.

Well... what tradition of Wicca are you?

Book rituals are just fine, you know. They are no more, or no less, effective than personally written rituals. Samhain is really just a REALLY BIG year-end ritual. I know that ours this year involves change (as it should every year) and I believe that one of our priestesses will be raised to 3rd level on Samhain, but I'm not sure on that. We will be facing our triumphs for the last year, and giving thanks for them. We will be looking at ourselves in the present and acknowledging what still needs improvement, and we will be looking towards the future, setting goals for ourselves for the next year.

We will be having Circle indoors, as it's really darn cold where we are, and Samhain tends to be a long ritual. No one needs to get sick from being outside barefoot that long!

In the past, as a solo Witch, I had just faced my altar and gave thanks for the past year, and asked for blessings for the new year. Ritual can be as long or as short as YOU make it. Your friend isn't wrong, you know. It's just as effective to follow a script as it is to make your own up. The Goddess doesn't care, really. What counts is that you connect with Her, and that you are sincere in your belief.

I'm really curious, though, as to what tradition you are following, and what sources you are using. Wicca isn't a nature religion (although nature is revered, it's not worshipped), though many other pagan religions ARE nature based.

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Originally Posted by BiWiccanAndProud

Beatlejuice I don't think I have all the answers to life and when I was in the deepest of despare there was no God there to help me and I saw no one. I have come close to suicide twice you want to know what kept me back? My brothers and sisters, the thought of them not having me there kept me back. I saw no god "he" has never revealed himself to me. Yet you say he shows himself to those who need saving and those who are "humble enough to admit they dont' ahve all the answers".

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I am not trying to disprove the existance of your god I am just saying, because he reveals himself to you in your darkest hour does not mean he does to all if they follow him.

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I did not say he just reveals himself to those who need to be saved. I said he reveals himseft to those who sincerely call upon him. The if you seek him you will find Him you will have so much joy in your life and he will give you peace that surpasses all understanding. You will not want to kill yourself. Because we were created to worship God and if we don't we feel a void and depression sets in. But if you get intouch with your creator and let him minister to you and have relationship with him your life will change. He will give you a new heart and new desires. I Know if there was no God the mirricle that happened with me would not have happened. There is no way I would have made it had God not showed up. I promise you if you open your heart and just put a child like trust in Him he will reveal himself to you. He love you as if you were the only person he ever made. And he desires you to have a relationship with you.

What do you mean tradition? My friend and I were working together for a while but now we do esbats on our own. We plan on celebrating Samhain together and with my boyfriend so it's just the three of us. Some told me that rituals aren't effective if you don't write them yourself. And from what my friend was teaching me it rang off as nature based and she told me it was that(several other people have too). I'm slowly studying on my own now though. The two books I use the most for info though are "The Wiccan Bible" by Ann-Marie Gallagher and "Wicca: the solitary pratctionar" by Scott Cunningham. I've found some good sites too. But I don't know what you mean by what tradition. Please explain? I've only been practicing for about 5 months so I think I'm still a bit new at it. Tonight is my first solitary esbat.

And you did say that beatlejuice

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but hey No matter what you say My God is the one and only true God and he only reveals Himself to those who are humble enough to admitt they don't have all the answers to life. Jesus said he came to save the lost. I was lost and now I am found.

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P.S. synnen do you know anything about crystal healing? I posted a while back asking if anyone knew of some really good books on it cause I'm very interested in it (I've got a few books on it but they don't have what I'm looking for, if you want to know what just check out the thread in the books section). Thanks!

Beatlejuice, I'm not going to get into a reddie-war with you.

Let's just say that every major holiday that Christianity celebrates has tones of the pagan religion that it took from. Trees, mistletoe, gifts, green boughs, holly--all Christmas traditions with pagan roots. Eggs and a bunny at Easter? Fertility symbols held over from Oestre. Halloween is when, in Christianity, the dead of the last year are able to walk for revenge (hence the whole costumes to hide from anyone who died that you may have wronged). For other pagan traditions, it's a time to acknowledge the things you did in the last year, face your faults, and vow to do better in the next year - a time to face your personal "demons", if you will.

For Christians, on December 25th, the SON is born. For ancient (pagan) customs--the SUN is born (look up the Roman Saturnalia for a LOT of the current Christmas traditions--including gift giving, feasting, singing, holding vigil - such as a midnight mass- with candles).

The idea of a god/follower walking on water was older than Christ. So was the idea of a god being born of a maiden/virgin. Look at traditions in the East and in Egypt. Look at Roman and Greek mythologies. Baptism, too, was pre-Christian - Achilles was technically "baptised"

Christianity borrowed from DOZENS of traditions and religions. I've even seen speculation that the disciples were named for other gods of the time of the Nicene convention. Matthew = Mithras, Peter = Jupiter, Mark = Mars, etc.

Please... do some research. I recognize that YOU believe in Christianity, and that it's a valid religion. I'm not trying to convert you away from it. I think that Christians that actually FOLLOW the teachings of Christ, and who love their neighbors regardless of their faults (as Jesus would do) are great people. It's the people that feel the need to tell me MY religion is wrong for ME that I detest. It's the people that truly believe the 10 commandments, but find killing people of a different religion to be okay (see the Crusades for numerous examples). It's killing people because they would not convert (um... the original missionaries to the New World, anyone?) that bothers me. It's Catholicism touting the benefits of celebate priests, then having a pedophilia issue in the church. It's burning innocent women because someone (usually someone in the church) accused them of casting a spell of lust upon the condemner. It's protesting against gay people, and denying them marriage, when God made them that way--and where does God say ANYWHERE that any kind of love is wrong? It's the selective reading of the Bible--Slavery was justified by the Bible, gay-hating is justified by the Bible, subjugation of women was justified by the Bible--and yet, incest isn't okay, even though Lot's daughters seduced him and bore him children. And how come, if it was okay in the Bible, so many people frown on polygamy? And yet you wonder how people could doubt Christianity? Christians don't even agree on what the Bible means, and you wonder how others could doubt that man-led institutions could get it completely right?

Christianity has some really great ideas! The problem is the people who think their interpretations of the Bible are the ONLY ideas, and try to force that "truth" onto others.

Synnen, thank you for your thoughts and extensive knowledge on pagan traditions. I did not know many of those things. I am curious about your Christian upbringing and how you left the Christian church. Please know that I am not here to "force" my beliefs on anyone. Read over my responses and you will see I am here for dialog between people that are seeking answers. I do have to say that I am a firm believer in the Bible. It is the True Word of God... (sorry, I BELIEVE It is the True Word of God.) When bringing up situations from the Bible, you need to be aware, that there are many stories from the bible that depict sinful acts and show that there is a cost for sin. The Old Testament is full of descriptions of sin, and how the punishment for sin is death. This is why I BELIEVE that Jesus was sent to the earth. He gave his life in replace for mine. I am not going to ever be separated from God again. I will die, but I will live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. I DO NOT CONDEMN ANYONE. I do disapprove of sinful lifestyles. Realize that we are all sinners. I have sinned in my life. I try to obstain from sin and seek out the help of the Redeemer. I also know that I have confessed my sins (not to a preist) but to my Heavenly Father, and asked him to wash me clean. I gave my life as a whole to Christ, because he is my Creator, and my Savior. I DO NOT PUSH my faith or beliefs on anyone, I tell people about my faith, just like you do with yours. Please do not lump all Christians together, just as I do not lump all Wiccans(? appropriate term? ) together. I also don't know much about Wicca, I find it more important to study my own faith, to ensure I am right where God wants me to be in my life. I pray that understand where I am coming from and that I am not here to "convert" anyone. I am here to speak the "TRUTH" as I know it and believe it. Thank You. And God Bless.

tchalien, I am sorry if I came across the wrong way. I found really no fault with your posts.

It was beatlejuice that irked me :)

I left Christianity because I had a series of religious leaders that could not answer my questions. They couldn't even give me the answer "you just have to have faith". That bothered me, so I started doing research on Christianity, which led to 3 years of trying out and researching other faiths. I settled on Wicca because it was the closest thing to what my heart felt.

I really try not to lump all Christians together. I know that there are very good people who are Christians--and that's what really counts, isn't it? That we're good people, to ourselves, and to others?

I'm sorry if my post came across that way. I meant it only to mean that Christians are not ALL good people, and Christian policies, especially in the past, were not ALL good policies. I think that some Christians forget the horrible things their own church has done in the name of God. I think people of ALL religions are at times guilty of this.

Please--don't think that I hate all Christians. I find many of them to be great people, with a great background of morals and a good understanding of what it means to help their fellow men.

I just find that some are very close-minded and feel that no other religion has validation of any sort. That sort of thinking is what leads to religious wars, and to hatred for the sake of a God--and I know of no god that promotes hate in any form.

Faith!! The Bible is Truth. Its centered around Faith and belif. "Seeing isnt beliving. Beliving is seeing."- The Santa Clause movie xD

The thing is, I believe christianity is truth.
Needkarma believes that the world is truth and that's it
Biwiccan believes wicca is truth.
Yes, there is one truth, at least two of us, maybe even all of us are wrong.
But, we can probably all agree that -neither me, karma, or biwiccan can be called a better person than the other.
Its just offensive and rude to say "i am right and you are wrong"
I believe in god, but I also know, that saying "my religion is the truth, yours is false, and you are going to hell" isn't going to convert anyone to the faith.
We have to practice religious tolerance and respect peoples views.
There was a time when us christians didn't practice religious tolerance.
And guess what happened then? Well, people like bewicca were probably burnt or killed, other faiths nations were invaded in great crusades, etc
So, we don't have to agree with them, but we do have to respect them.
I know in my heart that god is real, but I still usually say "i believe" instead, why? Because it means I get along better with other people, and offending people isn't going to convert them.

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Originally Posted by BiWiccanAndProud

Okay I am a Wiccan and I am proud, when someone asks me a question about Wicca, I calmly explain an answer (unless they are one of those people who ask me and then tell me, no matter what the answer i give, that I'm going to hell, which is pointless cause Wiccan's don't believe in hell,

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"pointless because wiccans don't believe in hell"
According to absolute truth it doesn't matter WHAT we believe or do not believe if it exists it is there regardless! Example: I can believe there is no such thing as the atmosphere or gravity because I can not see it. I can deny it ALL I want; BUT that doesn't make it non existent.

I also believe the Bible because of many things that are too deep to explain here and religion is not going to teach it they are too busy arguing over man made doctrine. I will explain things to you as time goes on.

I have an interesting thing I started thinking and learning and am just now really studying about. Energy and matter and how everything relates to everything from our decisions, inter actions, health to the spiritual realm and how traditional churches teach that many things are occultic because they do not want us to know about the how to get in tune with our inner being. How doctors use drugs to mask symptoms, the system opposes alternative healing (calling it witch dr stuff) and how we are fed dead foods and the list goes on, because they do not want us living a full quality life and they do not want us to be aware of our spiritual nature and how to develop and use positive energy to our benefit and potential.

I believe all religions are leading us astray. SOME have some truths, but it is up to us as individuals to study and discern the spirits and develop ourselves to the full potential God has for us.
I started thinking about things like why do churches say astrology and fortune telling are wrong but church prophesy is good? How and where do you know how to tell the difference and so forth. I have been starting to study developing my spiritual intuitions and abilities but I am always careful to discern the spirit since I know some are NOT meant for us and some are. Like churches say pendulums are occultic, but I have been studying herbal medicine for the past 15 years. And this past week God has been leading me into something MUCH deeper than what all to take to put cancer into remission.

I started reading Young Again by John Thomas. It is about detoxing your system and reversing the aging process and it talks about how EVERYTHING is positive and negative energy. Whole fresh natural foods are mostly positive while modern drugs, processed foods with preservatives and much more are negative energy. It says that one way of determining is use a pendulum over whatever it is you want to know. It says the more you get away from the negative energies the more open you are to freeing your spirit to your spiritual being.

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Originally Posted by BiWiccanAndProud

See!! Why can't other people be like that!! *is one of those kind of girls that wishes world peace but knows it's not gonna happen*

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Sure it will, honey. You just have to wait on the spiritual evolusion of our planet!

Eh but until everyone can accept others spirituality then a spiritual evolusion isn't going to happen

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

according to absolute truth it doesn't matter WHAT we believe or do not believe if it exists it is there regardless!

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The problem there is that everything thinks their truth is the absolute truth.

As I have said previously... the truth will be discovered when you die. Till then you can only believe in it. Like I said I don't believe in hell but if I die and it's there then I was wrong if it's not then I'm right. But till I die and find out for sure then I can just stick to my beliefs that it is non existent.

I study the bible quite extensively (among other religious texts) and one thing I've come across numerous times relates to translation errors or ambiguities. Sometimes a word is translated incorrectly, e.g. world instead of principality. Many times word meanings have changed over the centuries to the point that they would've been pretty much right at the time of translation but not today. By this I'm talking the common usage of words today oft isn't what is was back then, e.g. spirit today is meant to be something akin to a non corporeal being. Yet it's early meaning (Latin spiritus, Greek pneuma, Hebrew ruach) was something very different, i.e. relating to the rational portion of the mind. Want to see what I mean? Look to how we use many of the words in our sayings and it becomes clear the meaning is not the common one of today. When we tell someone they have the spirit we're oft telling them they have the understanding, they're in the mindset, etc

Brainwashed probably isn't the right word but somewhat correct. Indoctrinated would be the correct in my opinion. By this I mean people are taught to accept it in a certain way and never question that way. The old saying "There are none so indoctrinated as the indoctrinators" is likely very apt. You get people going to these institutions called churches, yet Jesus speaks of a very different church, i.e. anywhere 2 or more people get together to discuss his teachings. Note the word "discuss" as this is not what modern churches do sadly

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Originally Posted by tchalien

There is a lot of hate, discrimination, and prejudice in the world, because of sin. Man's sinful nature takes over, unless we surrender to the one that is perfect, the only ONE to ever walk this earth without sin, JESUS. There is sooooo much power in the just the name of Jesus. It is true there are "bad" things in this world, but God is bigger than all of that. Turn you eyes to Jesus, the author and perfector of our Faith. That is the way.

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Historically speaking the evidence is stacking up against the idea that he existed as an historical personage and stacking up in favour of the idea that he may well be a litery device used to get a spiritual (of the mind) truth across to us. Today's Christianity in my opinion has much of the Bible wrong, esp its purpose. Take a close look at the Jesus of the NT and we find that he appears to be constructed from the stories of the OT. He's the serpent in the garden, he's moses, he's lazzarus, he's noah, etc. But we've been indoctrinated into believing he is separate from them. Even the Bible tels us that man is the author of the Bible, just inspired by God

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Originally Posted by tchalien

There is a lot of hate, discrimination, and prejudice in the world, because of sin. Man's sinful nature takes over, unless we surrender to the one that is perfect, the only ONE to ever walk this earth without sin, JESUS. There is sooooo much power in the just the name of Jesus. It is true there are "bad" things in this world, but God is bigger than all of that. Turn you eyes to Jesus, the author and perfector of our Faith. That is the way.

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Yep, and Mary way her name in Christianity. Eve in Judaism

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Originally Posted by beatlejuice

the Bible was never rewriten. And if anyone attempted to rewrite then it is no longer The Bible. You can get the bible in its original text and language and so you can see the actual greek text in which it was writen. So the translations are pretty acurate. You can say you dont believe in Hell all you want but that will not change the reality. I can say i dont believe in gravity and jump off a cliff and the reallity will still hit. The Bible is the word of God and it is whole and it is truth.

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I actually disagree. I see the NT as a Hellenized rewriting of the OT using GrecoRoman symbolism instead of Hebrew. I can see the baptism symbolism in the flood tale. Can see how Jesus mirrors the serpent in the OT (He gets us to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (his teachings) for which he incurs the enmity of man (ridiculed and crucified) and is cursed above all else and has his head bruised by man (crown of thorns)... And of course many more throughout the whole thing

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Sure that's a great example, you get to see the result of your experiment immediately. If I say I don't believe in the bible then nothing, absolutely nothing, happens to me.

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Question is what is hell? If we look to the Bible re Heaven for example we are in effect told it's a place within us, i.e. a state of being. The Pharisees when asking about when the kingdom will arrive are tolds it's within them. We're also told it's already spread upon the earth and men don't see it. And yet continues the misconception that it's out there somewhere. Now if heaven is within us so to is hell as a state of being

People don't like being told that there are any questionable issues about their beliefs. After all, many things about the Christian bible have been rewritten, thrown out, translated, etc. If you ask them, they say you don't have faith. All you want to do is find out what is true. But by doing that you raise an even bigger issue to them that they don't want addressed: the possibility that none of their religion is true. So they just say "I have faith". Well, faith means believing in something for which there is no evidence.

But when you ask them for evidence of their religion (or their god's existence), they use the Bible as their proof. And when you ask for proof of the Bible's authenticity, they say that it is the word of Christian god. It's called "Circular logic". Of course the fact that other major religions have their own holy book is irrelevant to them because those people are just "wrong".

The bible was ordained by "God", which is "God's" word and gives "proof of his existence", because it was ordained by "God", which is "God's" word, and so on.

A nonbeliever or a Wiccan is simply abhorrent to them because we/you have shown them that their beliefs don't convince everyone. The fact that a person can look at their "evidence" and find flaws is very disturbing to them, and many will get defensive and angry.

A person of a different religion (Hindu, Sikh) isn't as bad because they have "faith" in "something". Atheists and "witches" are just evil. There's no incentive not to eat little children or to rob the poor and use their food stamps to buy drugs.