Pilgrims perform last hajj ritual in Mecca - Yahoo! News

Muslim haj pilgrims perform devil-stoning ritual - Yahoo! News

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war"... Ann Coulter, Top Leading Christian Worldwide speaker.

"I don’t believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion. When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim." "The Islamic faith is wicked, violent, and not of the same God. It is a very evil and wicked religion."... Rev. Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham)

"To see Americans become followers of, quote, Islam, is nothing short of insanity. Terry, you know, I've been in Africa many, many, many, many times, and you see people over here learning Swahili, for example. Swahili was the language of the slave traders. The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would people in America want to embrace the religion of the slavers, and the language of the slavers?"... Pat Robertson Founder and President of The 700 Club

"Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12
wives - and his last one was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah
is not Jehovah either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist
that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands
of people."... Pastor Jerry Vines Pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Florida and former President of Southern Baptist Convention.

"Mohammed was a terrorist. I read enough if the history of his life written by both Muslims and non-Muslims (to know) that he was a violent man, a man of war. In my opinion, Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example.".. Pastor Jerry Falwell, President of The Moral Majority, and Old-Time Gospel Hour

There has never been a bigger threat to Christianity, then the cult known as Islam. Yes, Islam is a cult, and a satanic cult at that. September 11, 2001 sounded the alarm and proved to Christian civilization what the true agenda of Islam is, and that is the total destruction of Christianity, as well as Judaism, by killing those who practice these beliefs, whom the Muslims refer to as infidels. We are in a war against terrorism, and this is a fight for survival. Christians and Jews represent Godliness, while Islam represents Satan. Muslims have become agents of Satan, and they will stop at nothing, including suicide to destroy Christians and Jews.

ISLAM

A free Holy Bible for the poor, oppressed and imprisoned

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hadi88

yeah sorry, was too late, 'll be careful next time, sorry about that again.

---

Naik says that he does not know Osama and cannot judge his actions. However, Naik adds that if Osama is "terrorizing the terrorist, America", then he supports Osama bin Laden.

Zakir Naik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DON'T GET IT TWISTED... The name of God, Jehova God is not Allah. JESUS is His name. Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV) states:

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord

Jesus is Lord, Lord is God, Jesus is God... END OF DISCUSSION

Allah is dead, Buddha is dead, Mohamed is dead, BUT JESUS IS ALIVE AND WELL... DON'T GET IT TWISTED...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singing_cs

Jesus is Lord, Lord is God, Jesus is God.....END OF DISCUSSION

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There can never be an end to a discussion where the subject is reliant on faith. No one person has the last word in this case, not even yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singing_cs
Jesus is Lord, Lord is God, Jesus is God.....END OF DISCUSSION

---

Thank you for your quote from your book.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magprob

Pilgrims perform last hajj ritual in Mecca - Yahoo! News

Muslim haj pilgrims perform devil-stoning ritual - Yahoo! News

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war"... Ann Coulter, Top Leading Christian Worldwide speaker.

"I don’t believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion. When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim." "The Islamic faith is wicked, violent, and not of the same God. It is a very evil and wicked religion."... Rev. Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham)

"To see Americans become followers of, quote, Islam, is nothing short of insanity. Terry, you know, I've been in Africa many, many, many, many times, and you see people over here learning Swahili, for example. Swahili was the language of the slave traders. The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would people in America want to embrace the religion of the slavers, and the language of the slavers?"... Pat Robertson Founder and President of The 700 Club

"Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12
wives - and his last one was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah
is not Jehovah either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist
that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands
of people."... Pastor Jerry Vines Pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Florida and former President of Southern Baptist Convention.

"Mohammed was a terrorist. I read enough if the history of his life written by both Muslims and non-Muslims (to know) that he was a violent man, a man of war. In my opinion, Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example.".. Pastor Jerry Falwell, President of The Moral Majority, and Old-Time Gospel Hour

There has never been a bigger threat to Christianity, then the cult known as Islam. Yes, Islam is a cult, and a satanic cult at that. September 11, 2001 sounded the alarm and proved to Christian civilization what the true agenda of Islam is, and that is the total destruction of Christianity, as well as Judaism, by killing those who practice these beliefs, whom the Muslims refer to as infidels. We are in a war against terrorism, and this is a fight for survival. Christians and Jews represent Godliness, while Islam represents Satan. Muslims have become agents of Satan, and they will stop at nothing, including suicide to destroy Christians and Jews.

ISLAM

A free Holy Bible for the poor, oppressed and imprisoned



Naik says that he does not know Osama and cannot judge his actions. However, Naik adds that if Osama is "terrorizing the terrorist, America", then he supports Osama bin Laden.

Zakir Naik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---

Fundamental extremist are alive and well all over the world.

Yes Tal, there are extremeist in all sorts of things, that's why we need to be careful.

Oh my, the earth is shaking at its very foundation. I'm gnashing my teeth.

Jesus made a statement that any one with a minimal understanding of agriculture can understand:
Matt 7:16-18
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(KJV)

The fruit are the followers of any teaching. When those followers are violent and evil, the tree they fell from cannot be good. Common sense tells us that Christianity (as taught by Christ) comes from a different tree than any religion that makes its ideology known by saying "convert or die".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singing_cs

I BEG TO DIFFER....GOD IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA...BEGINNING AND THE ENDING...AND THIS IS THE ENDING OF THE CONVERSATION...

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If you do not wish to continue this discussion, then you should not continue to contribute to the tread. However, not everyone agrees with your detemrination, and unless you are a terrorist you will readily recognise the right of others to hold to their own opinions, and acknowledge their God-given freedom to express them.

In a person's need to silence all opinions but there own there lurks the spirit of the evil one who will force men to hold to his own opinions, whereas God has said, " ... choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

No one can take from mankind the free moral agency that God - 'el - has given. If man was not free to hoose, then all a human being did or did not do would be imposed from wihtout. If that were the case, then God wopuld have no need to give commandments, unless he was magnificently capricious. Since God is not capricious, and since he does give commandments, then, ergo, man has the freedom of choice to conform or rebel.

Into this framework it beghooves no one to insist that any debate is final because the person insisting, even in capital letters, may be wrong. Ambrose Bierce defines being 'positive' as being wrong at the top of one's voice!

The provision of one - or two or more - proof-texts does not constitute reliable theological basis for deciding any issue, especially since there are many names and titles of God used in the Bible alone. When the Bible is translated into Arabic, then the name of God - 'el - is rendered 'allah'.

To insist that an English rendering of a Greek rendering of an Hebrew word is the only proper answer to the question "what is the proper name of God" is to make a nonsense of every name by which God is known in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

There is no mention of 'Jehovah' in the Bible. That name is a term coined in ignorance of correct Henrew pronunciation, and if God's name is, for example, 'ya-ho-vah' then you could call on jee-ho-vah for an eternity and not be answered.

One name by which God ['el] is called in the Bible is 'el-shaddai' [god-almighty], and he is variously called by other names and titles that refer to his characteristics just as this one does. He is Lord of Armies, and so many other names and titles that it beggars belief that anyone would insist that he is referred to by only one of them.

Jesus' name is jehoshuah [yehoshooah], which means 'yah saves' and is rendered in the English of the AV as Joshua, and in the Greek scriptures as Jesus from the Greek 'iesus' [i-yey-soos] as the Spanish pronounce Jesus.

When Mary was told she was to conceive and bear the Son of the Highest, she was instructed to call the child Joshua: hence the name of the Son of God is Jesus [in English], and whatever it turns out to be in other languages.

The name of Jesus was not later changed to 'Alpha and Omega,' but he referred to himself as 'The First and the Last', and what that means should open a profound Theological and Christilogical discussion, but he did not thereby signify that he was to be no more called Jesus, but by two letters of the Greek Alphabet. Jesus spoke in Armaic and would not have used those Greek letters, but John took the Aramaic words of Jesus and used Greek equivalents.

The scriptures warn against darkening counsel by words without knowledge, and we ought to be careful when we make pronopuncements as if we had it directly into our ears from the very mouth of God, lest we come across as out of step with the spirit of religion and the spirit of love that Jesus was at pains to inculcate into those who were to be his true disciples.

When we speak of God's name, we rarely speak or intend to speak of one exclusive proper noun, but keep in mind all the attributory names by which God is recognised, and in whatever language is appropriate to the speaker.

For a Christian to insist that God's true name is Jehovah, when the record says that the name of Jesus is the only name that will lead men to salvation, then that Christian has some explanation to make to reconcile what seem superficially at least to be contradictory. If they are contradictory, then we need also to recognise that the book says that God is not the author of confusion, ansd so we know that our difficulty has not been made by God, and must look elsewhere for its source.

My point is that there is no one who has the authority to stamp on this or any other discussion in imperious terms without offering a full and detailed explanation and justification for doing so. If you have means of vindicating your self without simply hurling mean-spirited proof-texts in our faces, then I am confidant that you will get a fair hearing. I can guarantee that on my own part, and I know of others who will do the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

Jesus made a statement that any one with a minimal understanding of agriculture can understand:
Matt 7:16-18
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(KJV)

The fruit are the followers of any teaching. When those followers are violent and evil, the tree they fell from cannot be good. Common sense tells us that Christianity (as taught by Christ) comes from a different tree than any religion that makes its idealogy known by saying "convert or die".

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Have Christian ministers ever extended that invitation to a heathen population?

Stephanie Gonzalez on December 13th, 2006 at 5:57 pm AST

'Convert or Die' is a computer video game set after the rapture, the players objective is to either convert non-Christians or kill them off if they refuse. Religion is a touchy subject and there are many radicals truly willing to commit such audacities. This game should be taken off the shelves; it gives teens the wrong impression of how to deal with non-Christians. If they are not taken off shelves they should at least be rated M for Mature to prevent teens from buying it. Even though some people may see this game as ‘right’ it’s completely hypocritical, Jesus did not at any point say in his teachings “Kill those who are different”. Instead of developing a video game that makes the player change who people are, create a game that will mend the rift between religions. We may have our differences but our job in this world right now is to look past those differences in belief systems and put in our effort to bring a little peace in troubles times. The game ‘Convert or Die’ isn’t helping with the tension; it’s only adding fuel to the fire.

Have heathens/pagans ever been faced with this choice by Christians, and, if so, how are Christians better than Muslims?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by singing_cs

DON'T GET IT TWISTED...The name of God, Jehova God is not Allah. JESUS is His name. Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV) states:

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him(who?) , and given him (Who?) a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord

Jesus is Lord, Lord is God, Jesus is God.....END OF DISCUSSION

Allah is dead, Buddah is dead, Mohamed is dead, BUT JESUS IS ALIVE AND WELL...DON'T GET IT TWISTED....

---

Can you detect the obvious contradictions in your quote?

Morganite-
From what you have said, I can agree that blatantly objecting to the Muslim's "Allah" in a harsh way may be very counterproductive in these times.
I have no problem with(or ever have) with moderate Muslims who truly believe that Allah is God, God of the Bible, and therefore a good God.

However, 9/11 woke us up to a new reality. One doesn't have to be a Christian, but Christians are the ones standing up now to hopefully deter the growth of this religion. Why?
Because the Qur'an has too many violent verses in it.
This is the case of one town here in the U.S. where a pastor is standing up(along with protestors) and bringing it to the Mayor's attention that they do not want a Mosque being built in this particular area. They are aware of the "freedom of Religion" right, but they are still battling for the legal ownership of the land, hoping to stop the building of the Mosque. The Pastor would like all 17 verses(I think that was the # he said) that are violent in the Qur'an removed, before he will drop his case. He feels that in this inner-city town the youths will be too vulnerable, will convert to this religion which as it stands has a great propensity to produce violence. I hope he succeeds.

There is another place in London where they are going to construct a mega Mosque. Christian leaders again voicing their disagreement saying they have no problem with thee regular size mosques, but this is a Centre. The faiths deserve equality. Most importantly, the funding of the mega mosque is from a group that is confirmed aL-queda. But I cannot say what goes on in Europe or England, except that it is a shame that Tony Blair is leaving.

All's OK with living amongst Muslims if they remove the violent passages from their holy books. Until then, all are not safe and must be on guard. That's what the Lord tells us to do in the end times. How long "the end times" will take till the Lord's reappearance is unknown, but "we" must be on guard and hold firmly onto the Faith we have learned,and not doubt. For doubt tries to neutralize the love and power of God. And "we" know where THAT comes from.

May we all work towards peaceful coexistence!

It is easier to take over from the inside. That is a well practiced ploy in Utah and the surrounding states, in a lot of different, larger businesses. As they move up the ranks, only their "kind" get hired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-
From what you have said, I can agree that blatantly objecting to the Muslim's "Allah" in a harsh way may be very counterproductive in these times.
I have no problem with(or ever have) with moderate Muslims who truly believe that Allah is God, God of the Bible, and therefore a good God.

However, 9/11 woke us up to a new reality. One doesn't have to be a Christian, but Christians are the ones standing up now to hopefully deter the growth of this religion. Why?
Because the Qur'an has too many violent verses in it.
This is the case of one town here in the U.S. where a pastor is standing up(along with protestors) and bringing it to the Mayor's attention that they do not want a Mosque being built in this particular area. They are aware of the "freedom of Religion" right, but they are still battling for the legal ownership of the land, hoping to stop the building of the Mosque. The Pastor would like all 17 verses(I think that was the # he said) that are violent in the Qur'an removed, before he will drop his case. He feels that in this inner-city town the youths will be too vulnerable, will convert to this religion which as it stands has a great propensity to produce violence. I hope he succeeds.

There is another place in London where they are going to construct a mega Mosque. Christian leaders again voicing their disagreement saying they have no problem with thee regular size mosques, but this is a Centre. The faiths deserve equality. Most importantly, the funding of the mega mosque is from a group that is confirmed aL-queda. But I cannot say what goes on in Europe or England, except that it is a shame that Tony Blair is leaving.

All's ok with living amongst Muslims if they remove the violent passages from their holy books. Until then, all are not safe and must be on guard. That's what the Lord tells us to do in the end times. How long "the end times" will take till the Lord's reappearance is unknown, but "we" must be on guard and hold firmly onto the Faith we have learned,and not doubt. For doubt tries to neutralize the love and power of God. And "we" know where THAT comes from.

May we all work towards peaceful coexistence!

---

Punkin,

I have a real problem with those who want other groups to do what they, themselves, are unwilling to do.
I note your objection to verses (I will take your word for the number of verses) in al Qu'ran that are 'violent,' and note that you require them to be removed.

If you really mean that, do you make the same demand of Jews and Christians to remove all the verses in the Bible that encourage violence in the name of God? I will not suggest that you are unaware of these passages, but if you are a Christian, than you, perhaps (I will put it no stronger than that), should be at least as aware of 'violent' passages in your own scriptures as you are of those in the book sof those with whom you find fault.

Will you give your solemn assurance that you will remove yourself from the midst of Christian, Jews, and Muslims until all three remove all the violent passages in their respective scriptures?

Peaceful co-existence can only become possible when the playing field is levelled and no demands are made of 'others' than those which we willingly impose upon ourselves, so that we treat all equally and not some as foul and others as flesh.


'By this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.'


M:)RGANITE

Morganite-

That defense does not ring true with me. Since when does any of the Bible promote hatred and violence ? Is it not God himself that avenges?

It has always been, in the Bible, to seek peace & pursue it. However, when it is called for, fighting is done for defensive purposes. "Blessed are the peacemakers". We cannot always peacekeepers(espec. Our leaders) Peace sometimes comes because of war.

Just look at Genesis 6- How God destroyed all people and the earth (except for Noah & the arkof course) because the earth had become corrupt and filled with violence.

Does the Bible say "go kill the infidels who do not convert?" No! It says pray for the unbeliever.

It is God who avenges against evil and violence. The Qur'an states that man should instigate violence. So yes, the removing of one man's version of justice from the Qur'an actually SHOULD be done. Especially now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-

That defense does not ring true with me. Since when does any of the Bible promote hatred and violence ? Is it not God himself that avenges?

It has always been, in the Bible, to seek peace & pursue it. However, when it is called for, fighting is done for defensive purposes. "Blessed are the peacemakers". We cannot always peacekeepers(espec. our leaders) Peace sometimes comes because of war.

Just look at Genesis 6- How God destroyed all people and the earth (except for Noah & the arkof course) because the earth had become corrupt and filled with violence.

Does the Bible say "go kill the infidels who do not convert?" No! it says pray for the unbeliever.

It is God who avenges against evil and violence. The Qur'an states that man should instigate violence. So yes, the removing of one man's version of justice from the Qur'an actually SHOULD be done. Especially now.

---

I have made no defence of anything or anyyone. I have pointed out what could easily be mistaken for hypocrrisy through someone insisting that someone else do something to their holy book that the insister is unwilling to do to their own holy writings. That is all.

Even a cursory reading of the Bible reveals a God who is bloodthirsty and vengeful. I will provide some examples, and then you can find others for yourself.

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor [a false god]: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

Now ask your question, "Does the Bible say "go kill the infidels who do not convert?" YES!

"And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts." (Exodus 11:4-5)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 2.34; 3:6-7)

"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and , with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)

These are but a small percentage of similar passages in which God directes his people to murder, slaughter, and rape. How then can you even suggest that they are not in the Bible (unless you have a special, expurgated, edition for Christians and Jews with weak stomachs), and yet be so caustic against Muslims for what you describe as seventeen passages inciting to violence against unbelievers when your own scriptures have far more in the same vein? How do you advise Christians to deal with the following?

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:19-22

Since when does any of the Bible promote hatred and violence ? Is it not God himself that avenges? It has always been, in the Bible, to seek peace & pursue it. However, when it is called for, fighting is done for defensive purposes. "Blessed are the peacemakers". We cannot always peacekeepers(espec. our leaders) Peace sometimes comes because of war.

You will see that your position cannot be defended.



M:)RGANITE



.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this the view of all different religions (not just Christianity and Islam)? That all others are false?

---

Not exactly. It is true that there are irreconcileable differences. However, if we look for differences rather than search for and stand together on common ground, we do all our gods a grave dishonour.

I heard a wise holy man say: "When you die God will not ask you which church you went to, but he will ask you how much good you have done."

I stand on that. Bad cess to those who invent theological tests for faith and entrance into God's kingdom. If to enter heaven we needed to be able to explain the ifinitesimal niceties and nuances of Byzantine Christology, then who would gain entrance into the blessed place?

Live and let live: believe and let believe, love and let love, and God will be the final arbiter of all these things. Until then, wait on him, and do good to all the people you can, in all the places you can, and in all the ways you can. This do and God will in no wise cast you out.

M:)RGANITE




.

Morganite-

No way! All your examples are applied to Ancient times, before laws were established.

Trouble is that from the Qur'an, violent acts are happening in modern times. Or can you not see the difference?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-

No way! All your examples are applied to Ancient times, before laws were established.

Trouble is that from the Qur'an, violent acts are happening in modern times. Or can you not see the difference?

---

A little off the original subject but how do you justify the few who do wrong with the many who are not violent in modern times and your reference to ancient man before the laws where established is not relevant to others who are non-christian, which is 75% of the world by the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-

No way! All your examples are applied to Ancient times, before laws were established.

Trouble is that from the Qur'an, violent acts are happening in modern times. Or can you not see the difference?

---

From the Bible, violent acts are happening in modern times. That is unless you do not consider hanging children from beams, naked, and whipping them with canes is violent.

~ The Rev. Arthur Allen Jr. 70, and four church members were found guilty of aggravated assault and cruelty to children for whipping two boys in front of the (Christian) congregation in February 2001.

~ After a 7- year-old boy complained to his teacher in February about welts on his back, Georgia child welfare authorities were surprised to discover that the beating had taken place not at his home but at services in his church

~ Welfare authorities said nearly 60 children had been seriously beaten by their parents and by church leaders, under the supervision of the Rev. Arthur Allen Jr. the pastor. Several children had open wounds, large bruises and welts, investigators said.

~ On Wednesday, in an Atlanta juvenile court, Chief Judge Sanford Jones reluctantly decided not to release 41 children of church families from foster care. Judge Jones said the children could go home if their parents agreed to spank them only with their hands, and by themselves at home, and not to allow girls younger than 16 to marry. The parents refused. "We're going to raise our children according to the Bible," said one parent.

~ Mr. Allen was jailed in 1999 for 30 days after ordering a 16-year-old girl whipped with belts, a beating that he acknowledged may have lasted half an hour.

~ Tanyaneeka Barnett, 25, a former church member, testified yesterday that teenage girls who had sex were frequently whipped during church services, after removal of their skirts or dresses.

~ Specialized pastors or prophets from “churches of revival” perform ceremonies to rid children of their sorcery. In many such churches, dozens of children can be held for days at a time, with food and water denied. In the worst cases, children are whipped, beaten or given purgatives until they confess to sorcery. Even after the process is concluded, however, children can be subjected to further abuse at home, and ultimately abandonment.

~ “We were not allowed to eat or drink for three days [either at church or at home]. On the fourth day, the pastor held our hands over a candle, to get us to confess.”
Brian, aged 12.

~ “Child sorcerers have the power to transmit any disease, including AIDS, to their family members. AIDS is a mysterious disease that is used as a weapon by those who practice witchcraft.”
A Christian Minister who specializes in child sorcery at a revival church.

~ Phil Williamson, headmaster of the Christian Fellowship School in Liverpool is leading a movement to restore the right of religious private schools to hit children. He regards spanking as part of the Judeo-Christian heritage. "If it's done in the right context, then children know that for somebody who loves them to smack them, something must have gone really wrong." His school hits girls with a strap and beats boys with a paddle.

~ Poll by Best of the Christian Web, a conservative Christian web site. It conducted a poll of its visitors. It introduced the question by stating that: "The American Academy of Pediatrics has condemned spanking saying it causes children to become violent. But Proverbs 29:15 says 'The rod and reproof give wisdom; but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.' " It asked the question: "Do you believe that spanking is an appropriate form of punishment for children?"
The first option: "Yes - Spare the rod, spoil the child" received 174 votes; the second option: "No - Spanking is abusive," received 11.

That is violence against the most vulnerable - some as young as three! Justified from the Bible in today's modern world in the belief that God orders them to do it. So no one can say that it does not happen today. It does!

~~~~

Abortion clinics, providers and workers often live in fear of Christian activists. Only recently captured, Eric Rudolph has been charged with a deadly bombing at the Olympics and with two other blasts in Atlanta at abortion clinics. Although the choice of the Olympics as a target may sound strange, it must be remembered that many far-right Christians regard anything which smacks of internationalism - the UN, the IMF, and the Olympics - as tools of Satan. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms regards the other recent attempted bombings and attempted arson attacks at Alabama abortion clinics to represent a heightened threat to life and property.

Government officials in both Canada and the United States have issued warnings to abortion doctors to take extra precautions. Anti-abortion extremists in Britain have warned the public that there "will be casualties" in the coming war, and that they did not intend to "turn the other cheek." As the anti-abortion rhetoric has increased over the years, so has the anti-abortion violence - property is destroyed, people are killed, and women are denied access to medical care.

When Muslim extremists place a bomb at a bus station in Israel, it is justifiably regarded as an act committed by "Muslim Terrorists." When are we going to wake up and recognize that similar acts here are being committed by "Christian Terrorists?"

Unfortunately, that label won't be used by anyone prominent any time soon. Conservative Christian groups are very quick to jump all over anyone who even so much as hints that Christians, as Christians, are responsible for any act of violence. It's one massive attempt at clinical denial, and the media and government rarely disturbs the fantasy.

Two recent examples show how dangerous such a disturbance can be. In one case the FBI and the Justice Department suggested that Eric Rudolph might be receiving aid or even a hiding place from any one of a number of anti-abortion groups in America. The reaction to this suggestion was swift and brutal as it was labeled "irresponsible, biased, and scurrilous."

Anti-abortion activists are quick to take offense at the idea that their movement might have anything whatsoever to do with helping an accused murderer - of course, this is the same movement which has produced "hit lists" of abortion doctors. We have also seen the widespread use of violent, war-like language on the part of major figures in the anti-abortion movement, and anyone who thinks that such rhetoric cannot have a negative impact is themselves in serious denial.

In another example, Katie Couric of the Today Show questioned whether or not the murder of Matthew Shepard might be linked with the increasingly hostile displays of intolerance on the part of various right-wing Christian groups like Focus on the Family. The reaction from members of such organizations was quick and massive - so massive, in fact, that NBC had to ask Focus on the Family to cease and desist with the phone calls. James Dobson, president of the organization, has also asked for an official apology from NBC.

Apparently, he is free to accuse homosexuals of whatever he wants - linking them to crime and drug use, if that is his whim - but any suggestion that his rhetoric encourages a climate of hate and violence is to be considered libelous. Brent Bozell of the Media Research Center considers it "one of the most insidious and bigoted attacks against Christians ever seen" for someone to suggest that Christians bear any responsibility for the Matthew Shepard's death. Somehow, I doubt he takes the suggestion that Christians are exhibiting any bigotry towards homosexuality very seriously.

~~~

Your grasp of history is as tenuous as is your grasp of the Bible. Just to illustrate with one example: the Code of Hammurabi was, according to historians, codified in writing sometime between 1792 BCE to 1750 BCE. His Legal Code consisted of 282 statutes.

The Exodus from Israel that Moses led, has been dated to 1250 BCE, so was had been written down long before the laws I quoted from the Bible.

It is really too bad of you to attempt to shift the grounds by introducing a qualification - and a patently false one at that! - to try to wriggle out from under your sweeping statements that the God of the Bible never commanded any acts of violence. I have shown you from your own Bible that me host certainly did. Live with it.

You might be unaware that much of the legislation contained in Al Qu'ran is lifted wholesale from the Old Testament. You don't get figs from thistles.

If you are saying that God changed, then you will have an interesting theological discussion on your hands as to whether God can fundamentally change his character.

There are times in our lives when our errors are pointed out to us that it is gracious simply to accept that we were mistaken, and not try to bluff and bluster our way out of it by insisting that we were getting at or meaning something else.

Besides which you asked: "SINCE WHEN DOES ANY OF THE BIBLE PROMOTE HATRED AND VIOLENCE?" Therefore, my answer stands and your objection falls. Suck it up like an adult.


M:)RGANITE




..

You misunderstood my answer. By" laws" I was referring to something like murder, kidnapping, or battery to say the least. Laws against crimes,punishable as in modern times.
Not anything to do with the Bible. It's government.
How do I explain - how many of Exremist Islam followers to moderate Muslims? Perhaps their numbers are the same. Just like all those CHRISTIAN names you gave. What was it, 25?
Don't count the ABORTION CLINIC violence! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 murders either.

25?

Morganite- tell that to Mohanir!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

You misunderstood my answer. By" laws" I was referring to something like murder, kidnapping, or battery to say the least. Laws against crimes,punishable as in modern times.
Not anything to do with the Bible. It's government.
How do I explain - how many of Exremist Islam followers to moderate Muslims? Perhaps their numbers are the same. Just like all those CHRISTIAN names you gave. What was it, 25?
Don't count the ABORTION CLINIC violence! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 murders either.

25?

Morganite- tell that to Mohanir!

---

Come on, can we stick to facts and not opinion? And why not count Abortion clinic violence? Fact- 75 mullahs rule Iran and set policy and control who has the money and everything else. The population has no voice in anything and no power to make policy let alone bombs and we all know it takes money to make bombs and raise armies and pay terrorists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

You misunderstood my answer. By" laws" I was referring to something like murder, kidnapping, or battery to say the least. Laws against crimes,punishable as in modern times.
Not anything to do with the Bible. It's government.
How do I explain - how many of Exremist Islam followers to moderate Muslims? Perhaps their numbers are the same. Just like all those CHRISTIAN names you gave. What was it, 25?
Don't count the ABORTION CLINIC violence! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 murders either.

25?

Morganite- tell that to Mohanir!

---

I abhor the use of dishonest tricks in debate. Murder is murder whether it is a pro-life activist militant Christian or an anti USA militant fundamentalist Muslim.

One murder is one murder too many, so any attempt to make numericality the foundation of a debate that started with a simple but patently false statement will not gain weight, ground, or acceptance by trimming a bit of sail here and there to try to make it fit. If only one Christian murders as a reuklt of their reading the, Bible and one Muslim does the same after reading thal Qu'ran, then your case falls just as heavily and completely as if thousands were moved to act by similar passages.

It doesn't fit and no matter how many contortions and slitherings are applied to this case your statement that THE BIBLE NEVER PROMOTES HATRED AND VIOLENCE is wrong and has been demonstrated to be wrong to the satisfaction of all reasonable people.

Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.


Is this passage or is it not an example of the Bible promoting hatred and violence? It does not matter when it took place, because you did not make time an element in your statement that the BIBLE NEVER PROMOTES HATRED OR VIOLENCE. As you can see with your own eyes it clearly does.

Suck it up and move on, for there is little point in beating the same old drum once the skin of its argument is destroyed..


M:)RGANITE





.

Morganite-

After the walls of Jericho fell, the Lord commanded Joshua & the Israelites not to covet the plunder. Joshua 7:1-But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things. Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger burned against Israel.
And so the Lord told Joshua to destroy" whatever among you is devoted to destruction."
Agreed? OK. Now do you think in present times someone reading the O.T.(Jew or not) would
Stone someone's son to death for grand larceny?
No, because, and even in a RELIGIOUS sense,not to mention the laws of the land today, the Lord doesn't say go"go kill him", it's the devil that does that. You know it. I know it . And Jesus came as the great Intercessor for all. Again, God just doesn't say that anymore. He may say " go fight, I'm with you " but that is a completely different scenario.

Now, do you understand my point? You do not have to agree and that's fine.

It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that there are different lines for different Gods?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that their are different lines for different Gods?

---

That is the whole point of the question, Tal. We are NOT throwing the books away. We are reading them. The Bible & the Qur'an here. And if you insist on it - yes, there are different "lines" for different gods- exactly why Allah is not the God of the Bible. So, with your non-religious statement we're back to square one-the separating factor.
There is a difference between them(Qur'an & the Bible)
I proposed that some non-Muslim leaders said that there were 17 verses in the Qur'an that were violent(and should be removed) Of course they have similarities, but even one verse promoting violence is too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

That is the whole point of the question, Tal. We are NOT throwing the books away. We are reading them. The Bible & the Qur'an here. And if you insist on it - yes, there are different "lines" for different gods- exactly why Allah is not the God of the Bible. So, with your non-religious statement we're back to square one-the separating factor.
There is a difference between them(Qur'an & the Bible)
I proposed that some non-Muslim leaders said that there were 17 verses in the Qur'an that were violent(and should be removed) Of course they have similarities, but even one verse promoting violence is too much.

---

You keep going back to that tired argument that has been squashed. And your statement about the different Gods goes against your own religion. My point that below the hard core adherence to the dogma that there are MORE similarities than differences. And no matter how you push the so called separating factor your argument falls way short or do you want to continue the dance around the obvious here, You no nothing about Islam or the Koran but can only spout misinformed ,prejudicial newspaper quotes so you can shroud yourself in self righteous ignorance of fact that not only is erroneous but has no basis in fact. That you doggedly hold on to your book which I question your understanding of, to point out irrelevant information and belief and dismiss other fact presented already destroys the whole discussion. You can't reason with a closed mind. But it will be interesting to see which line your in when you meet your maker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

You keep going back to that tired argument that has been squashed. And your statement about the different Gods goes against your own religion. My point that below the hard core adherence to the dogma that there are MORE similarities than differences. And no matter how you push the so called separating factor your argument falls way short or do you want to continue the dance around the obvious here, You no nothing about Islam or the Koran but can only spout misinformed ,prejudicial newspaper quotes so you can shroud your self in self righteous ignorance of fact that not only is erroneous but has no basis in fact. That you doggedly hold on to your book which I question your understanding of, to point out irrelevant information and belief and dismiss other fact presented already destroys the whole discussion. You can't reason with a closed mind. But it will be interesting to see which line your in when you meet your maker.

---

No, you keep going back to your tired, boring arguments because you disagree. We cannot have a debate when you are so inclined to poke fun at the one who you disagree with. You are closed minded because of your ego, for what that is worth. You come in on a conversation & spew absolute grade school knowledge that doesn't have any idea of the Bible or Qur'an. You like to get right in the middle & twist the words to suit your own ego. True, I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.
But the Bible- I know a great deal about. Much more than you know now preppy.

Don't twist the words & don't insult me. I feel sorry for you BTW, because it is you who has to worry about "standing before God" I'm covered with the blood of Jesus. Are you?
No, I think you are counting on your own will. Ego is part of the soul. You are out of alignment. Your spirit must be first. You need Jesus first- not yourself.

If you'd be quiet for a while, we might hear more about the Qur'an/Koran. I wonder if you can control it, at least with the superego--maybe we could actually learn something.

Islam would rather be covered in the blood of Christians than the Blood of Christ.
In the name of Jesus and the blood of Christ, I pray for the misguided souls of Islam to accept Jesus Christ, the one true Son of GOD, lord and Savior! That and only that will make us brothers and allow us peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-

After the walls of Jericho fell, the Lord commanded Joshua & the Israelites not to covet the plunder. Joshua 7:1-But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things. Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger burned against Israel.
And so the Lord told Joshua to destroy" whatever among you is devoted to destruction."
Agreed? OK. Now do you think in present times someone reading the O.T.(Jew or not) would
stone someone's son to death for grand larceny?
No, because, and even in a RELIGIOUS sense,not to mention the laws of the land today, the Lord doesn't say go"go kill him", it's the devil that does that. You know it. I know it . And Jesus came as the great Intercessor for all. Again, God just doesn't say that anymore. He may say " go fight, I'm with you " but that is a completely different scenario.

Now, do you understand my point? You do not have to agree and that's fine.

---

"You know it. I know it"


One has to be uttterly conceited and deluded to tell another person what they know or to what they might agree.

I do not agree unless I say I do, and I do not know what you think I know unless I say I do. OK?

You sound just like the hard headed fundamentalist who reek terror and ignorance on an unsuspecting population in the name of God but have no clues at all That you both (Islam/Christianity) spew the same stuff that has divided man all along. So I guess you have proved my point that all of you book heads scream and holler at each other, but are not smart enough to know your screaming and hollering about the same thing. So keep pointing fingers and wrap yourself with who's ever blood you need to, but it makes me no difference. Stick your nose back in the book, where you are happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

You misunderstood my answer. By" laws" I was referring to something like murder, kidnapping, or battery to say the least. Laws against crimes,punishable as in modern times.
Not anything to do with the Bible. It's government.
How do I explain - how many of Exremist Islam followers to moderate Muslims? Perhaps their numbers are the same. Just like all those CHRISTIAN names you gave. What was it, 25?
Don't count the ABORTION CLINIC violence! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 murders either.

25?

Morganite- tell that to Mohanir!

---

How can anyone tell what you were thinking (in reserve) unless you tell everything and qualify your statements so that they cannot be misunderstood? It is your respionsibility to ensure that you speak plainly, to the point, on the subject, and if you must rebut, then do it with evidence and reasoned argument, and not with a flurry of unsupported opinion.


If you make a statement, you must either support it or else withdraw it, but to make increasingly extravagant claims to justify it by saying you meant something other than what you actually said gives the impression that you are merely quarrelsome.

Do you stand by your statement that the Bible contains no direction to anyone to do violence to anyone? Or do you withdraw it?

I expected the rehetoric to follow and I will tell you, your having a teaching degree does not impress me in the least. As a matter of a fact, it scares me. First of all, you won't be teaching my children evolution and secondly, I am very careful about the claims people make as to their education for the simple reason that I have know many eduated idiots in my time. And of course, an empirical wizard such as yourself will know nothing of the matters of the heart, other than heart disease of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

No, you keep going back to your tired, boring arguments b/c you disagree. We cannot have a debate when you are so inclined to poke fun at the one who you disagree with. You are closed minded b/c of your ego, for what that is worth. You come in on a conversation & spew absolute grade school knowledge that doesn't have any idea of the Bible or Qur'an. You like to get right in the middle & twist the words to suit your own ego. True, I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.
But the Bible- I know a great deal about. Much more than you know now preppy.

Don't twist the words & don't insult me. I feel sorry for you BTW, b/c it is you who has to worry about "standing before God" I'm covered with the blood of Jesus. Are you?
No, I think you are counting on your own will. Ego is part of the soul. You are out of alignment. Your spirit must be first. You need Jesus first- not yourself.

If you'd be quiet for a while, we might hear more about the Qur'an/Koran. I wonder if you can control it, at least with the superego--maybe we could actually learn something.

---

According to the Bible, the atonement of Jesus Christ was a universal gift. God is more generous in applying it to humanity than are some of his reputed supporters. Who speaks for God in this debate?

"Believing not" is not the same as not believing. If death was the terminal point of opportunity for men to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour, what happens to all those who lived before the birth of Jesus, and to all those who have lived and do live in parts of the world where the name of Jesus has not been heard? Are they not also the children of a loving God?

Jesus came to be an infinite atonement and, by the shedding of his blood insuring to every creature immortality, because Redemption had to be as universal as the Fall. Further, we must never forget that, whatever we are moved to believe, the ultimate judge of who will and who will not be saved is in the hands of God and Christ alone. No minister has the power to determine otherwise.

It is sobering to consider the fate of those who claim to be followers of Christ but whose example and behavior have turned away many good people from embracing Jesus Christ as their saviour and redeemer. Whether among these is heaven bound?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morganite

If you make a statement, you must either support it or else withdraw it, but to make increasingly extravagant claims to justify it by saying you meant something other than what you actually said gives the impression that you are merely quarrelsome.

---

I really do appreciate and admire your attempt to bring a voice of reason and balance to this orgy of Muslim/Allah/Koran bashing, but surely you realize by now that you can't reason with and debate these folks. If you make a point or ask a pointed question that exposes a fallacy in their stream of blather, they will ignore it and go off on yet another unrelated tangent of hyperbole, accusation and innuendo. But in spite of the hopelessnes of making a dent in their self-imprisoning armor, your attempts do serve the admirable purpose of showing that not all Christians are so arrogant and self-deluded that they can't see that others' beliefs, though different from their own, are worthy of respect. For that, I salute and thank you most kindly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magprob

Pilgrims perform last hajj ritual in Mecca - Yahoo! News

Muslim haj pilgrims perform devil-stoning ritual - Yahoo! News

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war"...Ann Coulter, Top Leading Christian Worldwide speaker.

"I don’t believe this is a wonderful, peaceful religion. When you read the Koran and you read the verses from the Koran, it instructs the killing of the infidel, for those that are non-Muslim." "The Islamic faith is wicked, violent, and not of the same God. It is a very evil and wicked religion."...Rev. Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham)

"To see Americans become followers of, quote, Islam, is nothing short of insanity. Terry, you know, I've been in Africa many, many, many, many times, and you see people over here learning Swahili, for example. Swahili was the language of the slave traders. The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would people in America want to embrace the religion of the slavers, and the language of the slavers?"...Pat Robertson Founder and President of The 700 Club

"Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12
wives - and his last one was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah
is not Jehovah either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist
that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands
of people."....Pastor Jerry Vines Pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Florida and former President of Southern Baptist Convention.

"Mohammed was a terrorist. I read enough if the history of his life written by both Muslims and non-Muslims (to know) that he was a violent man, a man of war. In my opinion, Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example."..Pastor Jerry Falwell, President of The Moral Majority, and Old-Time Gospel Hour

There has never been a bigger threat to Christianity, then the cult known as Islam. Yes, Islam is a cult, and a satanic cult at that. September 11, 2001 sounded the alarm and proved to Christian civilization what the true agenda of Islam is, and that is the total destruction of Christianity, as well as Judaism, by killing those who practice these beliefs, whom the Muslims refer to as infidels. We are in a war against terrorism, and this is a fight for survival. Christians and Jews represent Godliness, while Islam represents Satan. Muslims have become agents of Satan, and they will stop at nothing, including suicide to destroy Christians and Jews.

ISLAM

A free Holy Bible for the poor, oppressed and imprisoned



Naik says that he does not know Osama and cannot judge his actions. However, Naik adds that if Osama is "terrorizing the terrorist, America", then he supports Osama bin Laden.

Zakir Naik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---

Statements such as above are not a bit different than what Bin laden preaches.
If I was the type that prayed my pray would be --O god protect me from your followers
--Savage

It was either Tweedledum or Tweedledee who said, "When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to say: nothing more, nothing less!"

With that in mind, I offer the following:

Heart Pronunciation (härt) noun

1. Anatomy
a. The chambered muscular organ in vertebrates that pumps blood received from the veins into the arteries, thereby maintaining the flow of blood through the entire circulatory system.
b. A similarly functioning structure in invertebrates.

2. The area that is the approximate location of the heart in the body; the breast.

3.
a. The vital center and source of one's being, emotions, and sensibilities.
b. The repository of one's deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs: an appeal from the heart; a subject dear to her heart.
c. The seat of the intellect or imagination: the worst atrocities the human heart could devise.

4.
a. Emotional constitution, basic disposition, or character: a man after my own heart.
b. One's prevailing mood or current inclination: We were light of heart.

5.
a. Capacity for sympathy or generosity; compassion: a leader who seems to have no heart.
b. Love; affection: The child won my heart.

6.
a. Courage; resolution; fortitude: The soldiers lost heart and retreated.
b. The firmness of will or the callousness required to carry out an unpleasant task or responsibility: hadn't the heart to send them away without food.

7. A person esteemed or admired as lovable, loyal, or courageous: a dear heart.

8.
a. The central or innermost physical part of a place or region: the heart of the financial district. See Synonyms at center.
b. The core of a plant, fruit, or vegetable: hearts of palm.

9. The most important or essential part: get to the heart of the matter.

10. A conventional two-lobed representation of the heart, usually colored red or pink.

11. Games
a. A red, heart-shaped figure on certain playing cards.
b. A playing card with this figure.
c. hearts (used with a sing. Or pl. verb) The suit of cards represented by this figure.
d. A card game in which the object is either to avoid hearts when taking tricks or to take all the hearts.
tr.v. heart·ed, heart·ing, hearts

Archaic: To encourage; hearten.

Idioms:

at heart

In one's deepest feelings; fundamentally.

by heart

Learned by rote; memorized word for word.

do (one's) heart good

To lift one's spirits; make one happy.

from the bottom/depths of (one's) heart

With the deepest appreciation; most sincerely.

have (one's) heart in (one's) mouth

To be extremely frightened or anxious.

have (one's) heart in the right place

To be well-intentioned.

heart and soul

Completely; entirely.

in (one's) heart of hearts

In the seat of one's truest feelings.

lose (one's) heart to

To fall in love with.

near/close to (one's) heart

Loved by or important to one.

steal (someone's) heart

To win one's affection or love.

take to heart

To take seriously and be affected or troubled by: Don't take my criticism to heart.

to (one's) heart's content

To one's entire satisfaction, without limitation.

wear (one's) heart on (one's) sleeve

To show one's feelings clearly and openly by one's behavior.

with all (one's) heart

1. With great willingness or pleasure.
2. With the deepest feeling or devotion.

With half a heart = In a half-hearted manner.

[Middle English hert, from Old English heorte

Glad it is that I am, that none of us is heartless.
(The Barn of Avon)

:)



.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

It seems like it is easier to separate the differences than looking honestly at the similarities. When you throw the books away, and stand naked and alone before the Creator do you honestly think that their are different lines for different Gods?

---

It is not really difficult to discover who speaks with which voice.

God and Jesus are the reconcilers, whereas Satan has been called 'the crow-bar' because he pries people apart.


QED

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

That is the whole point of the question, Tal. We are NOT throwing the books away. We are reading them. The Bible & the Qur'an here. And if you insist on it - yes, there are different "lines" for different gods- exactly why Allah is not the God of the Bible. So, with your non-religious statement we're back to square one-the separating factor.
There is a difference between them(Qur'an & the Bible)
I proposed that some non-Muslim leaders said that there were 17 verses in the Qur'an that were violent(and should be removed) Of course they have similarities, but even one verse promoting violence is too much.

---

What would you do if all the Books had been destroyed? To what source would you turn for guidance in matters spiritual?


M:)RGANITE

From 31pumpkin

Quote:

---

I don't know a lot about the Qur'an and I'm taking some Christian leaders word for it.

---

What if he knows less than you do? So you would follow as a sheep and repeat the rhetoric of your leader. That is exactly what is occurring in Islam so another point as to the similarity of these two religions.

Quote:

---

But even one verse promoting violence is too much.

---

So I guess all the verses Morganite has prooffered don't count?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Morganite-

After the walls of Jericho fell, the Lord commanded Joshua & the Israelites not to covet the plunder. Joshua 7:1-But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things. Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger burned against Israel.
And so the Lord told Joshua to destroy" whatever among you is devoted to destruction."
Agreed? OK. Now do you think in present times someone reading the O.T.(Jew or not) would
stone someone's son to death for grand larceny?
No, because, and even in a RELIGIOUS sense,not to mention the laws of the land today, the Lord doesn't say go"go kill him", it's the devil that does that. You know it. I know it . And Jesus came as the great Intercessor for all. Again, God just doesn't say that anymore. He may say " go fight, I'm with you " but that is a completely different scenario.

Now, do you understand my point? You do not have to agree and that's fine.

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What I 'think' has no bearing on the case in point, because it is certain that some modern day murderers and child beaters take their instruction from the pages of the Bible. I have provided you with ample evidence of the fact, but you will not admit that evidence into consideration, and find what I consider to be lame and concocted excuses to bar them from the equation.

To clear the way for a reasoned discussion on an important matter, will you please point out which books or verses of books in the Bible you wish to 'count out' or ignore completely, so that I can either avoid them in offering examples to show where you have erred, or else join you in the denial of things that I know to be factual but am too partisan to admit to: namely, that there are passages in the Bible that direct men do violence and commit murder.

Once I have your list, I will see whether the rump of the Bible is clean enough from promoting us to commit depredations that then render it a morally superior work to al Qu'ran.

The 'accursed thing' was introduced into the camp of Israel by the Israelites themselves and not by the Aiites, and this was done in direct contravention of the command given to them by God. One of the soldiers disobeyed. He took a garment upon which the curse rested. He also took some of the silver and gold and hid them in his tent.

If the Book of Joshua is accurate, it makes it appear that God commanded Joshua's army to slaughter civilian non-combatants, including old men, women, and children as a punishment for somehting that the Israelites had done. Doesn't that cause you at least one moment of disquiet?

When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they [are] hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it. So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, [it was] hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

What wrong had Achan's sons, daughters, oxen, asses, sheep, and tent done that they should be stoned and burnt?



M:)RGANITE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teacherman

Believe or accept
“Do you believe in evolution?” is a question often asked of biology teachers by their puzzled students. The answer is, “No, I accept the fact that the Earth is very old and life has changed over billions of years because that is what the evidence tells us.” Science is not about belief—it is about making inferences based on evidence.

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As a point of clarification, isn't changing slowly over billions of years the same as evolving?

I don't wish to be too picky here, but science is about finding out. Inferences are not as strong as what can be proven, and scientists might use inferences only as points of departure to lead them to discover what is and what is not true. Perhaps you will agree to omit semantic digs (unless they are essential), rather than use them to score points from the opposition, and address the issue at hand as a priority.

Yes?

M:)

"31pumpkin agrees: Right. They don't count. He took everything out of context to what I meant."

Is it me or is that the standard response everytime you offer up a bible quote that counters their argument? It's always "taken out of context".

First, it wasn't I that offered up all those Bible quotes if you look. Morganite is countering with verses from the Bible. Except there is no comparison when a Christian looks at entire scripture in relation to the Bible's verses. Instead I am countering the Koran.

The Koran takes the "7th century warrior"-Mohammed & canonizes him as the supreme example of human behavior. So instead of being a 7th century warfare pattern that we ought not follow,( Mohammed) becomes the model for how we should always behave. So this is the defect, and the difficulty.
Islam-Terrorism, Inc.

31pumpkinFirst, it wasn't I that offered up all those Bible quotes if you look. Morganite is countering with verses from the Bible. Except there is no comparison when a Christian looks at entire scripture in relation to the Bible's verses. Instead I am countering the Koran.
By your own admission you know nothing of the KORAN, except what some Christian leader has told you, and offer the violent scriptures of the Koran as proof that it must be wrong. Yet when you are presented with facts that the bible does the same thing as the Koran, have violent passages, you pass over that as if it was justified (the same dribble comes from Islam) That is bias, unfair, and illogical. I submit to you that the sheep of the bible and the sheep of Islam are doing the same thing.

The Koran takes the "7th century warrior"-Mohammed & canonizes him as the supreme example of human behavior. So instead of being a 7th century warfare pattern that we ought not follow,( Mohammed) becomes the model for how we should always behave. So this is the defect, and the difficulty.
Islam-Terrorism, Inc.
Without knowing more about the subject instead of telling us what is false, as Mohammad is portrayed as much more than a warrior, get to know the whole truth and not just pick out a part of the story to use to denigrate some one else. That is your defect. Your difficulty is either you don't see it or won't admit it. A closed mind can learn nothing.

By the way the site you refer to is propaganda and false if you need legitamate sites let me know when your mind is open to learn the truth as defined by history.