Ask Me Help Desk - Cult or religion

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighterrr

the bible is a code that needs to be deciphered their is only one correct meaning to the code of the bible, just like a combination lock only one set of numbers will open it.

Paul said that the gospel is simple:

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Paul said that the gospel is simple:

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

Ohh yes lets talk about christ and his simplicity it lies within all of us.:) and you don't need the bible to find something that's en-ate and part of your basic human nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I gave an example, and all that others could do is complicate and obscure the meaning by interpretation. Whereas the meaning without interpretation is so clear that any child who can read will understand it.

You say that all written work needs interpretation. I disagree.

I will add, that with the Bible, though you will disagree, there is an interpreter give by God to believers and that is the Holy Spirit.

You gave an example yes, a very basic easily understood sentence, what you are missing is the fact that everyone, even a child, will read that sentence and view it differently.

Is the sky really blue? What if you're color blind and don't know what the color blue looks like? How can you be sure that the blue you see is the same color as the blue I see? What if you live somewhere that has winter 99% of the time, the sky won't look blue, it will look white (trust me, I live in Canada, I know).

What happens when you say that same sentence in another language, does that change the meaning of the sentence? You bet it does.

Are you starting to understand what I'm saying?

Yes, it's a simple sentence, and yet there are so many ways to interpret it. So, how can a mortal man such as yourself hope to interpret correctly the "word of God"? You can't.

But, once again, we've gotten off topic, and for once I didn't start it (yeah me!)

The topic is about religion and whether it is viewed as a cult.

I still don't understand why the fanatics have such a problem with that word, after all it's only a word, a very basic word, one that even a child can understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighterrr

ohh yes lets talk about christ and his simplicity it lies within all of us.:) and you don't need the bible to find something thats en-ate and part of your basic human nature.

Scripture is clear that it is only those who believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour who receive the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

You gave an example yes, a very basic easily understood sentence, what you are missing is the fact that everyone, even a child, will read that sentence and view it differently.

Grab 10-15 kids off the street, show them the sentence, ask them what it means, and check out your theory.

I never said that people could not complicate things if they wanted to.

Well, there aren't that many kids in my neighborhood, but I'll ask my 6 year old daughter.

Okay, I asked her to read the sentence.

She said and I quote "Mommy, there are also clouds in the sky, so it's not all blue, it's also white, but not always, sometimes it's all blue like today, but tomorrow it's supposed to rain so the clouds will be grey and the sky won't be as blue".

Happy, or should I ask my 10 year old when he gets home?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Paul said that the gospel is simple:

2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

Yes, but I thought I pointed out that I think Paul is a misogynistic little beast with very little thought in his head other than empowering the church, therefore empowering himself.

THEREFORE--my interpretation is that Paul was pointing out that men are better than women (the serpent deceived EVE, not that Adam didn't just go "Okay George--can I pet him and love him and squeeze him after I have the apple?"), and that MEN find simplicity in Christ because Paul's directives give them power over the women in their lives, and help them to overthrow the matriarchal societies that were in existence at the time.

See how my "interpretation" is different than yours, simply because I think Paul is a jerk and you don't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture is clear that it is only those who believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour who receive the Holy Spirit.

And there you go being superior again based on a book written by men.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well, there aren't that many kids in my neighborhood, but I'll ask my 6 year old daughter.

Okay, I asked her to read the sentence.

She said and I quote "Mommy, there are also clouds in the sky, so it's not all blue, it's also white, but not always, sometimes it's all blue like today, but tomorrow it's supposed to rain so the clouds will be grey and the sky won't be as blue".

Happy, or should I ask my 10 year old when he gets home?

Got to spread the rep, Alty, but kisses right back atcha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well, there aren't that many kids in my neighborhood, but I'll ask my 6 year old daughter.

Okay, I asked her to read the sentence.

She said and I quote "Mommy, there are also clouds in the sky, so it's not all blue, it's also white, but not always, sometimes it's all blue like today, but tomorrow it's supposed to rain so the clouds will be grey and the sky won't be as blue".

Happy, or should I ask my 10 year old when he gets home?

You must have taught her how to interpret :confused::D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

Yes, but I thought I pointed out that I think Paul is a misogynistic little beast with very little thought in his head other than empowering the church, therefore empowering himself.

Since he is now in heaven with God, I suspect that he is not too concerned about your demeaning comments concerning him.

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See how my "interpretation" is different than yours, simply because I think Paul is a jerk and you don't?

Since your interpretation is not found in scripture and since I go solely by what scripture does say, it is not an issue of interpretations.

I get a chuckle out of those who don't like me allowing the Bible to speak for itself and absolutely demanding that I interpret it:D.

Many people who say this no doubt would be terribly upset at anyone who told them what they must believe. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Since he is now in heaven with God, I suspect that he is not too concerned about your demeaning comments concerning him.

Since your interpretation is not found in scripture and since I go solely by what scripture does say, it is not an issue of interpretations.

So your problem with the whole thing is that the BIBLE doesn't define Christianity as a cult, so therefore it can't be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

So your problem with the whole thing is that the BIBLE doesn't define Christianity as a cult, so therefore it can't be?

Biblical Christianity does not meet the criteria for a cult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

You must have taught her how to interpret :confused::D

As your parents taught you. :D

She's a smart little girl, takes nothing at face value, so yes, I've taught her well. She's growing up learning to ask questions and demand answers, answers I never got in the Catholic school I attended. I found those answers on my own, but not in the bible that I grew up learning.

My only hope for my children is that they find their own path, not conform to what others say. I'm not raising sheep, I'm raising wolves. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Biblical Christianity does not meet the criteria for a cult.

I thought that I had just shown, on the last page, that Christianity DOES meet the criteria for a cult.

If nothing else, your stubborn refusal to believe ANYTHING but what the Bible says reinforces that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

I thought that I had just shown, on the last page, that Christianity DOES meet the criteria for a cult.

If nothing else, your stubborn refusal to believe ANYTHING but what the Bible says reinforces that.

And I have to spread the rep. Darnit!

Something tells me that Tom didn't even read your list, or he interpreted it incorrectly. :)

Cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

As your parents taught you. :D

My parents taught me to think for myself. That is why when someone demands that I do thing their way by adding interpretations, I do not feel obligated to defy what scripture says.

I wonder why people are so insistent that other must do things the way that they think that it must be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture is clear that it is only those who believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour who receive the Holy Spirit.

OK that's is your opinion & your interpretation, but it's certainly not mine

To the OP, here read this and tell me what you think...
Cult:
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. A group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

Religion:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. Religious rites.
8. Archaic. Strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

—Idiom9. Get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

Cult, religion as defined in the, religion definition | Dictionary.com , site.

Huh, so our own interpretation of the word, and the stigmas we associated to it are now folding in on us and proving us to be liers. How so you ask?

Think about it... You'll realise that every word that is said is nothing, and only the meaning behind it matters. Stop arguing pointless facts that are niether true nor false, and start opening your own eyes to that wisdom that we all share. The wisdom that is GOD, Spirituallity, LIfe, Life stream, Gia (is that it? ), The source, The force, or other wise. Any thing you say these to be is both true, and false. I've never ever met any one who cold convince me other wise and that I feel is because, "There is more to truth than just the facts."- Unknown

"There are many things in this world I do not understand, but it seems to me that there are many things in this world that do not understand me. So rationality is as fleeting as the thoughts that make it so..."- Nestorian, Benism.

"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."
Socrates

So believe what you will, but the moment you think you are right, is the moment you are wrong. “It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance.”
-Thomas Huxley

May peace and kindness be with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

I thought that I had just shown, on the last page, that Christianity DOES meet the criteria for a cult.

As someone else said, you have shown that is your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighterrr

ok thats is your opinion & your interpretation, but it's certainly not mine

Not my interpretation. Scripture says it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

My parents taught me to think for myself. That is why when someone demands that I do thing their way by adding interpretations, I do not feel obligated to defy what scripture says.

I wonder why people are so insistent that other must do things the way that they think that it must be done.

But Tom, you're the one insisting that we do things the way you think it must be done.

You can't have it both ways, it's give and take, not take, take, take.

You don't have to defy your interpretation of scripture, it's your right to believe what you want, as it is our right to believe what we want.

You see, I too think for myself, that seems to bother you. Why is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not my interpretation. Scripture says it.

It is your interpretation of what you think a specific scripture says. It is fact that different people will read the same scripture and each person will take something different from it. Or sees it in a different way then somebody else.

Joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not my interpretation. Scripture says it.

SCRIPTURE is an opinion!

GAH!

Seriously--I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than the religious OPINIONS of a bunch of guys that sat down together over some supper with bread and wine!

So--MY opinion is equal to the opinion of the BIBLE, since all OPINIONS are equal.

THAT is what you don't get--scripture is nothing more than an opinion from Joe Schmoe for those who do not follow the cult of Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

As your parents taught you. :D

She's a smart little girl, takes nothing at face value, so yes, I've taught her well. She's growing up learning to ask questions and demand answers, answers I never got in the Catholic school I attended. I found those answers on my own, but not in the bible that I grew up learning.

My only hope for my children is that they find their own path, not conform to what others say. I'm not raising sheep, I'm raising wolves. :D

Alti I tried to give you a greenie :mad: but I have to spread the love. Anyhow I agree from one catholic girl who attended catholic school from age 4-18, I came out off high school completely lost and confused:confused: I also found the answers I needed on my own and will not under any circumstances step into a church again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

But Tom, you're the one insisting that we do things the way you think it must be done.

Not at all. Anyone is welcome to interpret the Bible if they wish. It is the Bible that says that we should not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

S

So--MY opinion is equal to the opinion of the BIBLE, since all OPINIONS are equal.

I would suggest that God's opinion carries more weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not at all. Anyone is welcome to interpret the Bible if they wish. It is the Bible that says that we should not.

Where exactly in the bible does it say that it is not up to interpretation? People who read it on a daily basis including you interpret what it says. If we were not allowed to interpret the bible we would not be able to read it.

Synn, I still have to spread the rep, apparently I'm not loving enough other people, only you. ;)

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So--MY opinion is equal to the opinion of the BIBLE, since all OPINIONS are equal.

This says it all!

Tom, what you don't understand is that there is no absolute proof that the bible is anything more then an interesting read. You cannot prove that God wrote it, or inspired it or that God even exists.

You're basing your entire belief on a book that you believe is "Gods word" and, like everyone else, you are interpreting that book to suit your beliefs. That's fine, it's your right, but it is also our right to follow a different belief, to state that the bible is not the "word of God" because there is no proof that it is.

You can sit on your high horse all day and state that scripture speaks for itself, but it doesn't. If it did then there wouldn't be all this arguing even amongst fellow Christians. None of you seem to agree, why is that? Is it perhaps because you all interpret it differently?

You won't accept the fact that you do indeed interpret what you read, just like every other fallible human being on this planet. Unless of course you are going to tell us that you're God and that's why your interpretation is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, what you don't understand is that there is no absolute proof that the bible is anything more then an interesting read. You cannot prove that God wrote it, or inspired it or that God even exists.

We've been through that. At one time you refused to consider evidence if it supported the Bible being divinely inspired. There is a great deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I would suggest that God's opinion carries more weight.

My goddess was around way before your god. HER opinion carries more weight with me than an upstart book written by a bunch of men in a cult.

Do you GET it yet? The Bible is nothing more than a book to me. An interesting book, sure. But it was written by MEN, not GOD, and therefore is flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

We've been through that. At one time you refused to consider evidence if it supported the Bible being divinely inspired. There is a great deal.

Are we going backwards again?

Tom, evidence from the bible isn't evidence because I believe that the bible was written by man, not God.

Also, you're forgetting, I believe in God, I don't need you to prove God to me, I just don't believe that the bible is the "word of God" and I don't believe in organized religion.

I've said it before, I'm not a sheep, never will be. You see, I have a brain, yes, a brain, and I intend to use it, not follow someone else's line of thought simply because they say I have to.

Tom, we've already been here, and we didn't get anywhere. Heck, there is no getting anywhere with you, and I guess there's no getting anywhere with me either. Are you German? ;)

So why are we arguing, We'll never convince each other that the other is right. I just wish that once, just once, you'd listen instead of criticize everything that doesn't follow your strict guidelines and beliefs.

You've proven time and time again that an equal conversation, where you actually listen to what I say without judging, isn't possible. I really don't know why I even bother. Maybe I hope that one day you'll actually read what I say, get off your high horse and admit that my opinion holds merit. That won't happen though, so why are we here?

I honestly think that you love arguing, heck, maybe I do too, after all you sure do get my knickers in a bunch. But you see, there's a difference between the two of us. If you actually said something I agreed with, I'd be big enough to admit it. You never will.

I'll be watching, but now I have to go. My head hurts, I've had enough.

Peace.

Cowboyfriendly,

Forget about all this Religious BS, or Cult stuff. Every one's got their opinions, which have been poisoned by social conditioning.

Think for yourself,

"Believe nothing no matter where you read it, no matter who said it, no matter if I said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense.

First rely on the spirit and meaning of the teachings not on the words.

Second rely on the teachings not on the personality of the teacher.

Third rely on real wisdom not superficial interpretation.

Fourth rely on the essence of your pure wisdom mind not on judgmental perceptions."- Buddha

It's your life, so live it. Look with in yourself and dig deep as deep as you can, past the fancy cloths, makeup/spray on sent, the hair style, past the skin/muscle/bone and right on into your inner soul.

“Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.” ~Andre Gide

“Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow.” ~Aesop

“Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying.” ~Baba Ram Dass

“Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth.” ~Ludwig Börne

May peace and kindness be with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Are we going backwards again?

Tom, evidence from the bible isn't evidence because I believe that the bible was written by man, not God.

Let's assume for a moment that you are right.

So books written by man are not acceptable as evidence?

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Also, you're forgetting, I believe in God, I don't need you to prove God to me, I just don't believe that the bible is the "word of God" and I don't believe in organized religion.

So it would not matter what evidence was brought forward.

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Tom, we've already been here, and we didn't get anywhere. Heck, there is no getting anywhere with you, and I guess there's no getting anywhere with me either. Are you German? ;)

No, not German.

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So why are we arguing, We'll never convince each other that the other is right. I just wish that once, just once, you'd listen instead of criticize everything that doesn't follow your strict guidelines and beliefs.

I do listen, apparently more than you realize. But that does not mean that I am required to agree, anymore than you are required to agree with me.

Tj3 she means why do you need to comment and argue against her comments when they do not agree with you.

I just wish that once, just once, you'd listen instead of criticize everything that doesn't follow your strict guidelines and beliefs.

Listen and be still. Whne it comes to some things that she says, or others, that you disagree with.

However, she'd have to do the same. Or ignore one another's posts.

Does that make more sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestorian

Tj3 she means why do you need to comment and argue against her comments when they do not agree with you.

Interesting approach. She original directed her comments to me, and I responded. Maybe you should ask why does she need to comment and argue against my comments when they do not agree with her. On the other hand why bother? Everyone, myself included, has the right to disagree and comment. Or do you think that that right does not extend to me?

That's just it Tom, you did respond, but in a belittling holier then thou manner.

If what you had to say was just your opinion then I'd be fine with that, but you state your opinions as fact, and they aren't.

Opinions I can accept, your "I'm right you're wrong" attitude is the problem.

You even said it, you claim to have proof that God exists, that proof is in the bible that you believe was inspired by God. When I state that I don't believe that the bible was inspired by God then you claim that I'm unwilling to see the truth. The truth according to who? You?

You even deny that you interpret the bible. Apparently you are the only human being on the face of this earth that does not interpret things, you see the truth, and only the truth. Once again, holier then thou.

You constantly talk down to others, you won't get your point across that way, it doesn't work.

The sad thing is, if you and I both agreed to just talk, listen, discuss, I think that we could actually have a very interesting conversation. But, until you are actually willing to listen, that's not going to happen.

I'm guilty too, but I'm not alone in that guilt Tom. I'm big enough to admit it, are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting approach. She original directed her comments to me, and I responded. Maybe you should ask why does she need to comment and argue against my comments when they do not agree with her. On the other hand why bother? Everyone, myself included, has the right to disagree and comment. Or do you think that that right does not extend to me?

I actaully believe that rights are as fleeting as a thought. They don't excist unless everyone agrees upon them. Thus majority rules. So nope, you me, Alt, and all the rest have no right to do anything. Perhaps this is on account that we are all irresponsible with what we "think" we "know".

Even if you are considered wrong by one, doesn't mean that you are indeed wrong. When some one says, "this is how it is, there are no other possibilities." or something as such, they leave no room for the other people who believe or think other wise. This "implies" to them that they are insignificant in your eyes, thus they feel the need to prove other wise. As I have warned many be for, "Don't under estimate the value of one, for one may very well be more valuable than any combined..." - Nestorian

We will not know the truth until we become one with the truth. When that happens it won't matter what others think, or that we were right or wrong; all that will matter is that we accept it and embrace it. No?

So let us be still with our disagreeing and fear of being less than to some one else, and focus on why we are hear. To give those who ask us for information the best information we can. Should we disagree, then simply state so, and move on. Only explain why if you intend to give a Red mark for some one's "inaccurate" answer. Please provide evidence/proof before giving red marks, as to my knowledge no one has yet, but it's misleading to others if we careless, reckless, and angerly start bashing one another. We are not here to convert others, we are here to give information in what I understand is s'pose to be a neuteral way, and yes our opinions do often get pulled into this.

"Nobodies right if everybodies worng."-Buffalo springfield (I think that's how it goes, I may be wrong. Relatively speaking. ;))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

That's just it Tom, you did respond, but in a belittling holier then thou manner.

Judging again?

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If what you had to say was just your opinion then I'd be fine with that, but you state your opinions as fact, and they aren't.

No, I state opinions as opinions.

But I see that every discussion with you ends up with you going after me personally. Why not just stick to the topic?

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Opinions I can accept, your "I'm right you're wrong" attitude is the problem.

You mean like when you telll me that I am wrong that I must interpret the Bible because that is your opinion?

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You even said it, you claim to have proof that God exists, that proof is in the bible that you believe was inspired by God. When I state that I don't believe that the bible was inspired by God then you claim that I'm unwilling to see the truth. The truth according to who? You?

I said that when you said that you would reject any evidence that supported the Bible as inspired. In that case, it is true that the person who rejects evidence because it disagrees with what they want to believe has rejected truth.

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You even deny that you interpret the bible. Apparently you are the only human being on the face of this earth that does not interpret things, you see the truth, and only the truth. Once again, holier then thou.

I know many people who don't interpret the Bible - or are you telling me that you are right and I am wrong? Have you spoken to every person on earth?

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You constantly talk down to others, you won't get your point across that way, it doesn't work.

You are welcome to your opinion.

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The sad thing is, if you and I both agreed to just talk, listen, discuss, I think that we could actually have a very interesting conversation. But, until you are actually willing to listen, that's not going to happen.

Why must you always attacj the person when they disagree with you?

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I'm guilty too, but I'm not alone in that guilt Tom. I'm big enough to admit it, are you?

Then why do you do it every time? Why don't you bury the hatchet and discuss. Or if yolu cannot bring yourself to do so, why not just ignore those who you cannot tolerate discussing things with?