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Retrotia disagrees: It's love that's the greatest of these- faith, hope, & love. Why do u have it missing?

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You really don't see the contradiction in this comment do you?

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Originally Posted by poppa0777

the Bible says it was not written by any man's private intpretation, but by the Holy Ghost. The Bible is therefore completely infallible.

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The Koran says the same, so Muslim believers have exactly the same basis for claiming that it is "completely infallible". It's OK with me if you (and they) believe this for the purpose of finding your own salvation, but I do have a problem with your insistence that the rest of us MUST accept both your premise and your conclusions. It's this inability (or unwillingness) to see that your assumptions, beliefs and conclusions are valid only for yourself and those who agree with you that the rest of us find so arrogant and offensive. It would be bad enough if you just told us we were stupid and wrong, but the icing on the cake is to invoke God's wrath along with your own and threaten us with eternal torture if we don't shape up. It really shouldn't surprise you that your approach meets some resistance, even among those (like myself) who find much in the Bible to love and cherish.

Duh... charity is love... so why did you give me a disagree? If you want to deny the facts then you really are as smart as you thought. I got that straight from the bible. I was in Missionettes for 4 years and I had to memorize that passage. Even though I'm not a christian today, I still remember the things I was taught and I still remember the bible verses I memeorized. I wouldn't post something I thought was untrue. I checked to make sure I had every word currect accourding to the NKJ verson. I'd like an apology. Lol your not as samrt as you thought you were because that statement was completely dumb. You should have looked up charity in the dictionary. Duh.

1 Corinthians 13 [Click this icon to listen to an audio file of 1 Corinthians 13]
The Way of Love

13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 13:2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 13:3 If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, 1 but do not have love, I receive no benefit.

13:4 Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up. 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self-serving, it is not easily angered or resentful. 13:6 It is not glad about injustice, but rejoices in the truth. 13:7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside. 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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This is" love" in the NKJ & NIV versions. Just because both words mean 'agape' in the Greek- there is no reason for some Bible translators to substitute the word charity for love.
The word "charity" is too elusive to use also in other passages that call for the word "love" that is used.
Charity is an outworking of Love. Think about this... If charity was the greatest virtue-how does that make someone feel who has nothing & is in need of "charity?" This is one reason why the word charity is inappropriate.
Also, faith, hope, & love are cardinal virtues that we take with us to heaven. Can you even understand taking "charity" with you? No, it implies something material also.
So, sorry if I offended you- but I don't agree with the interpretation you've been given or have learned.
Love never fails.

Ok I couldn't care less what verson it is. The fact is charity means love. It's a different word for love. You are clearly not very bright. Look up the word. You think you got all the asnwers, guess what... you don't. Your wrong. I'm right. Charity is love. I had plenty of bibles and in one charity was used as love. Don't f-ing try to tell me what's what. You don't even know of what you speech. God I am so tired of talking to people who are not smart. I like converstaions with people who know about what they speech not people who think they do.

Look up this... this will prove your clearly just spitting out crap. Its in KJ duhhhh Here's from an online bible...

Bible Resources, Online Bible, Read the Bible, Search the Bible, Bible Study Plan, Passage Search, Keyword Search


Charity charity charity charity!! I could be 10 and know that charity is another word for love.


Here's the dictonarys veiw...

Charity (virtue) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Note that the King James Version uses both the words charity and love to translate the idea of caritas / ἀγάπη: sometimes it uses one, sometimes the other, for the same concept. Most other English translations, both before and since, do not; instead throughout they use the same more direct English word love, so that the unity of the teaching should not be in doubt. Love can have other meanings in English, but as used in the Bible it almost always refers to the virtue of caritas.

I don't think anyone except for "mother Teresa" could claim to possess that kind of love you are referring to------BUT do not display with your words- either love or charity towards your fellow man. That is a martyr's spirit-such perfection of the human spirit. And this perfection only wanes- starting with the believers & ending with the rest of the world's beliefs.
For me, it's "love thy neighbor as thyself" which means doing & saying no harm.
I'm not perfect. And I do believe love can mean self-sacrifice, but it must be weighed by wisdom.
I do suggest you look at your own words- because they aren't charitable or loveable.
Here's one ex.-
He who guards his mouth preserves his life(Proverbs 13:3)

To revert to your original question- If you are happy with your beliefs & that it doesn't matter about heaven or hell to you, then you should be content rather than caring what anyone else thinks or says.
Good luck to you.

I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show people a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, I disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this I know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that I say, I am not a christian at this time, however I try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When I referred to 1 Corinthians 13 I wasn't implying that I follow it word for word or that I even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something I memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that I too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that I had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As I've said in other posts, I fell away from god because I don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing I need to find myself and where I stand in this world. Til then I will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If I didn't know about christianity I would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus I question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, I have made my apology, I have cleared up what I hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at referring to love and charity. I hope that I was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that I am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, I think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.

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Originally Posted by u08dc4

Firstly "one or two bad things" was meant to be sarcastic! I most definitely don't agree with anything hitler did! and i'm fully aware that he was probably one of the most evil men in history, right up there with Stalin. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted.

But Hitler did do those things and did believe in God and that Jesus died for his sins. my interpretation of your previous words was that as long as you accept god and jesus you would go to heaven and your sins forgiven. I was just pointing out that, that probably wasn't the only way to get in or out. nothing meant personally i really do hope Hitler is in hell if there is one.

Retoria, one thing that confuses me, and i don't claim to be an expert, and my knowledge and understandings of catholicism as poppa quite rightly pointed out is limited, is that you said all Esua descendants are going to hell, does that mean even if they are good? as god gave them free will?

I also agree with poppa that the problems do arise when people start to put their own spin on things and when they interpret things differently from others, that was the point i was trying to make. i believe in some power higher than my own i do not however want that tainted by views which i can't agree with on a personal level. i have found this within the catholic church, its not the catholic persons fault, its my interpretation of how i would want people to treat me and hence how i treat them. For example i would never tell someone who was confused about their religious views that they were down right going to hell. people have questions and others have answers but i don't like scare tactics.

I've grown up around people who treat their religion terribly (protestant catholic sectarianism is very violent where i live) perhaps now you'll understand why i don't like how different groups interpret the bible in different ways.

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U08,
First of all, I will back up what Rotatia saidabout Esau's descendants, because that is the Word of God. The first thing you must understand is that NO ONE gets to heaven by "being good" as you call it. The Bible says there is none righteous, no not one. The only way a person can make it to heaven is through and by the Blood of Christ... recognizing that His substitutionary death on the cross of Calvary is the only thing that makes provision for us to be forgiven from our sins. The Bible clearly tells us that "if any man tries to get there any other way, he's like a thief and a robber". I detect that you have a good heart, and are truly seeking the right way. Keep the good attitude you have, and you'll be OK, because I believe you're sincere.
God bless you.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

First of all, i am offended to be called immature. I prooved you wrong b4 and as i recall you even said that you agreed that you were wrong, so once again you'll need to realized once again your wrong. I'm 21. I've been through more crap then a lot of ppl have. I've learned life lessons the hard way. I don't have the answers to everything. There are many things that i would like to still learn, but when i kno something that is fact, its fact weither you like it or not. I voice my opinion weither you like it or not. I'm strong enough to not let you or any other religious fanatic try to fear me into a bogus religion. If this is what you want to show ppl about your religion, then don't expect ppl to convert anytime soon. You have a lot of things wrong. I was a christian for 18 years, i kno the bible very well so when you try to qoute faulse or exaturated things im going to laugh in your face and say wrong! At least kno of what you speak, and at least follow your own religion the currect way. Would Jesus like the way you or any of you are acting? No, he'd be ashamed. You force ppl to feel bad, force ppl to conform and force ppl to feel weak. I'm not weak, im not a subject to be toyed with, im not a slave and i most certainly am not going to be a product of insanity. So..., im more mature then you are. You want to fling the the bible around and act like your high and mighty. Your just upset because i rocked the foundations of what you think, you don't want to listen to reason or reality. You'd rather live in the dark rather then free yourslef and live in the light. Get off your throne. You qoute false words, i've read the bible and you twist it Retrotia and Poppa. In my opinion you need help b/c it seems a few screws are lose. Don't try to tell me i don't kno what im talking about. I think that your seriously in need of a reality check. No one care's what you say b/c in the end we will believe what we believe. You thought i didnt kno the bbile? Well i can fling it better then you if i need to.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

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Raynefreak, the first suggestion I have for you is to discontinue with your posts. You seem to be annoyed and offended by the slightest disagreement. As to your knowledge of the Word... I can't speak to that... HOWEVER... having knowledge and applying it and living it is a far different matter. Your ramblings speak volumes as to your immaturity. I have been trying to rationalize with a very irrational person.
I do not care what you believe, but you need to exclude yourself from a grown up forum if all you know how to do is make personal attacks. You think too highly of your self-professed wisdom if you think anything have said has shaken me. I know in whom I have believed, and am confident that He will speak to me when and if I get out of line. I apologized to you in the spirit of meekness, and you don't even have the decency to acknowledge that. I pray that this rebellious spirit you have will be replaced with the spirit of God. You will never find true peace until you draw close to the Prince of Peace! You won't find Him with Wicca or any other false religion.
What you need to understand is that "religion" will get you no where. The only thing that will get ANYONE on the only road to heaven is SALVATION.. If you die in your sins it will not be because some of us have not tried to point you in the right direction. In order for this to happen, you must be teachable... not rebellious. I am praying for you, and love your soul. I pray I will see you in Heaven. God bless you.

Poppa, did you even read my last post?
I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show people a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, I disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this I know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that I say, I am not a christian at this time, however I try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When I referred to 1 Corinthians 13 I wasn't implying that I follow it word for word or that I even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something I memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that I too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that I had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As I've said in other posts, I fell away from god because I don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing I need to find myself and where I stand in this world. Til then I will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If I didn't know about christianity I would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus I question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, I have made my apology, I have cleared up what I hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at referring to love and charity. I hope that I was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that I am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, I think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.


I understand how you could think that I am immiture but I can assure you I am not. I'm 21 and sure sometimes I can have my moments. I may have disagreed with some of the things said here, however I didn't disagree with everything said. Even if I did, my last post will explain. I am hurt by you words. I am not immiture, I am an adult and I have a right to post my opinions. I'm not rebelious or confussed. I've made my mends. I disagree with you, and I will leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

Poppa, did you even read my last post?
I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show ppl a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, i disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this i know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that i say, i am not a christian at this time, however i try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When i refered to 1 Corinthians 13 i wasn't implying that i follow it word for word or that i even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something i memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that i too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that i had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As i've said in other posts, i fell away from god because i don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing i need to find myself and where i stand in this world. Til then i will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If i didn't know about christianity i would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus i question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, i have made my appology, i have cleared up what i hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at refering to love and charity. I hope that i was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that i am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, i think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.


I understand how you could think that i am immiture but i can assure you i am not. I'm 21 and sure sometimes i can have my moments. I may have disagreed with some of the things said here, however i didn't disagree with everything said. Even if i did, my last post will explain. I am hurt by you words. I am not immiture, i am an adult and i have a right to post my opinions. I'm not rebelious or confussed. I've made my mends. I disagree with you, and i will leave it at that.

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It is wonderful that we can disagree without the fear of torture or a firing squad as in some countries.
You and I will then agree to disagree. God bless you. I hope and pray you are able to work through whatever issues you have. I have a few myself. This has been very interesting. I will continue to pray for you, Raynefreak.

Thank you, I hoped I showd you that I am indeed of sound mind and not immiutre and cruel. I think you needed to know the whole story to understand me. I hope you can accept my apology. I think the bigger man is the one who admits faults and wrongs. As I've done. Thanks :-)

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Originally Posted by Raynefreak

Thankyou, i hoped i showd you that i am indeed of sound mind and not immiutre and cruel. I think you needed to know the whole story to understand me. I hope you can accept my apology. I think the bigger man is the one who admits faults and wrongs. As i've done. Thanks :-)

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Not a problem! God bless you!! :o

RAyne I can understand what you have been trying to explain to everyone about wiccan/pagan beliefs. Lets face it, I too am Wiccan. On the first or second page someone claimed to be terriefied of witches yet most of these people do not even realize that they walk past us every day, they talk to us, invite us into their homes and bbq's. They have no knowledge of what or who we reaaly are lets face it.

Rayne you will only find peace when you embrace who you are as a human before you worry about religion getting muddled all up into it. Trying to force someone to see that we believe in a god or goddess is not easy to say the least. We are what we are. I too was raised in the midst of both worlds. My mom turned anglican for along time although she ad been raised celt. I was raised with both so I can see how hard it is for those who do not understand to reallize that we will not eat their children, turn them into anything, or sacrifice. We do not let blood in Fact our number 1 COMMANDMENT is to harm none lest ye be harmed. We do not follow the line of satanic service, in fact we turn our back on the devil because it is only when you give attention to evil that it can survive.

When people come to seek out their god or goddess and realize that there is no one way to honor our belief or no one way to show how much we do love our god, goddess etc. Those who believe that much in God should step back and maybe realize that you do not have to constantly walk around trying to convince everyone to believe as they do. By doing this they are only trying to convience themselves. When they come to peace with themselves, they are able to accept others.

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Originally Posted by nanajo1

When people come to seek out their god or goddess and realize that their is no one way to honor our belief or no one way to show how much we do love our god, goddess etc. Those who belive that much in God should step back and maybe realize that you do not have to constantly walk around trying to convince everyone to beleive as they do. by doing this they are only trying to convience themselves. when they come to peace with themselves, they are able to accept others.

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Yes, yes, "no one way". This insistence on "only one way" is the source of so much conflict, both within and between people. Totally unnecessary, it seems to me.

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Originally Posted by Megg

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.

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WICCA isn't nothing to do with satan or the devil or anything santic people don't understand about it they just say that because the tails about witches and people who were in to the occult I'm in to the occult myself buti m pagan Wicca and paganism is all about kindess and working with good energys and the natural emlemts on earth we worship nature and do nice things and worship god and goddess.

If someone was satanic they would be would a chrisen witch because they would do voodoo stuff like that because they would have to believe in god and the devil so they could act agenst god you no what I'm trying to say. They use BLACK MAGIC/ but we don't we use WHITE GREEN NATURAL

Basically my take on it, besides what Fr Chuck has said, is people have the impression that Wiccan's believe the devil has more power than God and to be a Wiccan you have to believe the white magic. Magic and God do not go hand in hand. God tells us to steer clear of magic.
Also people have the impression that Wiccan's only believe in God as a force secondary to the Wiccan's beliefs when you are to put God as first in the Christian belief. The Bible says even the demons believe and shutter.
It is good to have a spiritual journey but be open to Christianity and other beliefs and come to your beliefs. I am a Christian but I like reading the ying yang teaching, the
Jewish Kabalah (not Madonna's version) and some other things that Christians shun.
I believe you can learn from everything the thing is having a good discernment.

I used to be involved in wicca and drugs. I had turned my back on God, who I thought caused all kinds of hell in my life. I am ever thankful that He never turned his back on me. He brought me to a point of realizing His love for me and my need for Him. Jesus said"John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And in Matthew 19 He tells how to get eternal life: 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[k] or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

When you say Christians are judging and not openminded, it is really Jesus who you are calling judgmental. It is His words we live by, not our own opinions.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I am a Christian but I like reading the ying yang teaching, the
Jewish Kabalah (not Madonna's version) and some other things that Christians shun.
I believe you can learn from everything the thing is having a good discernment.

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I think you're onto something fundamentally important here. Without discernment, we are unqualified to read ANY sacred text or book of wisdom, or interpret ANY dream or vision, or weigh the words of ANY preacher, prophet, or visionary. With it, no source need be shunned.

Do you share your interest in non-Christian spiritual teachings with any of your Christian friends? Since you say that "Christians shun" these subjects, I'm guessing that some of them would say that your interest in and reading of such things shows a lack of discernment. Is that stereotype warranted, in your experience?