Ideally, I would have loved to stay at home, have six children, and help them develop into beautiful adults, but it did not work out that way.

The provider (husband) was a spouse abuser, college educated - but couldn't hold a job.

The nurturer (wife) had to take on both jobs and raise a child (the only one she could have due to medical problems).

This is a circle - as my child is now facing the job of single parent who has to do it all.

Honestly, we both wish with all our hearts it could have been different.

But you know what - from statistics throughout the world - we belong to a majority.. isn't that ironic?

If my wife made our combined salaries I would surely stay home with the kids and be the primary caregiver. I've already had good experience doing that with parental leave (4 months) and the dot-com bust layoff :( that lasted a while.

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Do you believe God really intended for women to carry attache cases and drive BMWs to work? Are they fulfilling the mission God designed them for by doing this?

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I think God intended man and woman to work together to make this a better place to live. That is why he gave us free will to evolve in a changing world and not be stuck in the past!

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Do you believe God really intended for women to carry attache cases and drive BMWs to work? Are they fulfilling the mission God designed them for by doing this?

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Yes. 100%. If God did not intend it, He would not have made it possible. God made certain things possible and certain things not. He gave us the freewill to go about Life in such a way to encounter and explore all things possible. God intended for Satan to rule this Earth... God intended for Adam to eat the fruit... God intended abuse, disease, and rape. God intended for evil to be brought about this Earth. However, God also intended Good... God also intended Love... God also intended Faith... God also intended laughter, joyousness, and peace.

God intended all these things and He intended us to decide for ourselves what is right.

I think women actually have something special and unique to contribute to the work force. Not all women workers are in the corporate world or working solely for their own benefit. They are doctors, judges, teachers, ministers, politicians, activists... I am friends with the first woman judge in our province, who is now over 80 years old. She had a husband and children, but she still became one of the most respected judges in Canada. She was one of the founders of our province's human rights commission, and an advocate for the poor, the indigenous peoples, and women. If she had simply been a housewife all her life, think of all the good our province would have missed out on.

I have a daughter. Although I am a stay at home mom right now, there is no way I would ever expect my daughter to do the same thing. I want her to do whatever she wants, be successful and be the best person she can. If that's being a wife and mother, fine. But I don't ever want her to feel obligated to subjugate herself to a man.

I believe in women being independent, able to take care of themselves. I've heard too many stories of women staying with abusive men because they don't have the money or the education to support themselves and their children. I used to work in a women's shelter, and this was the number one reason women went back to their abusers. They didn't have the means to be independent.

If you have a wonderful husband like I do, that's great. ;) But I'm not so naïve as to think that all women are as lucky.

The last post was interesting and true. But in addition to the cultural perspective, I believe God's word clearly doesn't forbid wives working. In fact this is all news to me, as I thought some people were just old-fashioned. Maybe that's where old-fashionedness comes from.
But I read a few ministries articles on the subject and the only thing that's frowned upon is when a woman's job obligations cause her to neglect her husband and family.
So in our culture it comes down to money and thankfulness. Money, because one cannot take anything/one for granted. Thankfulness that one does have a job (whatever it is) and has the opportunity and talent(a gift from God) to do the job well and earn a living. A woman,imo, should remain employable at all times(or have a big bank account in her name) ;)
The bigger problem seems to be when people are in love with $$$ and their greed overtakes them. And of course the Bible says that the love of $$$ is the root of all evil.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Yes. 100%. If God did not intend it, He would not have made it possible. God made certain things possible and certain things not. He gave us the freewill to go about Life in such a way to encounter and explore all things possible. God intended for Satan to rule this Earth... God intended for Adam to eat the fruit... God intended abuse, disease, and rape. God intended for evil to be brought about this Earth. However, God also intended Good.... God also intended Love... God also intended Faith... God also intended laughter, joyousness, and peace.

God intended all these things and He intended us to decide for ourselves what is right.

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I think you are getting God's intentions mixed up with something else. I don't think he intended for all of this to happen, but he did know it would happen. He gave us all the free will to choose our own path. If we choose to abuse someone or choose to stay in an abusive relationship that is our choice. God did not intend for us to be hurt. I think you are simplifying too much. Intention implies He had something to do with it, when I don't believe He did. He allows consequences to occur. (Like when teaching your child to walk. Your intent is not for your child to fall down and cry, it is just the consequence of learning to walk.) Yes sin may be required for us to grow and mature but I honestly don't believe it is His intention for anyone to be hurt. I believe God can step in if there is a need, but I'm not sure he does. (I do however believe in miracles.)

We all have to make our own decisions and learn from them. God gave us these possibilities to allow us freedom. If He didn't allow us to make choices what would the point be. Just because something is possible doesn't make it from God. If He interfered, that would be wrong. I know there are times that because of our decisions we get answers as to if we are doing good or bad. Example: your dog isn't obedient and doesn't know how to sit, heel or act around people. The dog may even end up biting someone if they are mistreated or not reared properly. That would be your responsibility. Have you taken the time to teach the dog this? The simple fact that your dog doesn't do what it's told is an answer enough to show that you are not doing your part. With children, can we afford to wait for the consequences?

God has told us how to raise our children and it is your responsibility to do it to the best of your ability.

I think that women are free to work and should if the children's physical needs aren't being met. I think there is plenty of time for the woman to contribute financially. It should be based on their own family situation.

Quote [QUOTE]"I think that women are free to work and should if the children's physical needs aren't being met. I think there is plenty of time for the woman to contribute financially. It should be based on their own family situation..."
I agree that a woman who is taking care of a family should not be in any rush to contribute financially to her family... for her duties (since she chose to take that responsibility) is the family. This opinion is based on the man making enough money that such a sacrifice can be possible. The issues are giving the love and attention to the new entries to life. Now is that what you are trying to say? Hope so!

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

It begins one family at a time! Personally, I have a hard time imagining Boaz allowing Ruth to be an F-15 fighter pilot, family lawyer, or CEO. Yes, many husbands have abdicated their role as spiritual leader of the household and have failed to treat their wives with love and respect. It's time for men and women to assume their proper roles and to start anew.

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Ruth could not have been a pilot because Pontius had that job!

M:)

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Do you believe God really intended for women to carry attache cases and drive BMWs to work? Are they fulfilling the mission God designed them for by doing this?

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What do you suppose a woman's divine mission is?

M:)

When both parents work, the children largely have two "fathers." The silent message to the kids is that money and the "world's" values are what's most important. The nurturing role of the mother is devalued and family relationships suffer. Greed (idolatry) takes over, resulting in a disfunctional family where selfishness prevails. Ultimately, the strains become so great that the family "flys apart."

Yes this can happen,and does but there are a lot of families that balance the two jobs and still raise well balanced kids. They tend to work together to keep the home a home and share in the nurturing. It depends on the man and woman.

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

When both parents work, the children largely have two "fathers." The silent message to the kids is that money and the "world's" values are what's most important. The nurturing role of the mother is devalued and family relationships suffer. Greed (idolatry) takes over, resulting in a disfunctional family where selfishness prevails. Ultimately, the strains become so great that the family "flys apart."

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The working mother that would drop her maternal instincts just because she works didn't have those instincts in the first place. While I don't disagree that many are chasing the almighty dollar I certainly disagree with your categorizing all working couples as bearers of disfunctional families. Many families will be dysfunctional regardless of how many parents work. These days it's tough to get by on one salary.

What people forget is when man and woman sit down and make their plan as to the kind of life they will lead and the way they will raise their children it is their decision, right or wrong they are the ones to make the plan and make it work. Their choice. They're way.

Yes, and I think it is a very important decision to be made. Are women really included in this decision? I know many couples where it is just assumed, women work. Even my own mother and mother-in-law felt pressure from their husbands to stay at home. You are right, they and their families have to love with whatever decisions are made and no one else should have an opinion in it.

I understand God intends both men and women to evolve (as is the whole planet, I take notice) and that frequently we collectively take three steps forward and one back on our journey. Beyond that isn't important on a public scale. What is important to me is my relationship to all of it: God, my fellow humanity, even civilization... and as a woman I have worked out the specifics of that well enough to suit me and my creator. But out of a sense of humility I wouldn't dare to stick my nose in the specifics of yours, nor would I welcome yours in mine. It is a personal, private matter that doesn't really lend itself to open debate well. It is as varied an answer, I would guess, as would be the question about the role of man too-- if asked in a world-wide public forum. What I think isn't going to have much bearing on anything here as it can only really matter to me in the long run, I think?

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Originally Posted by aqua@home

Yes, and I think it is a very important decision to be made. Are women really included in this decision? I know many couples where it is just assumed, women work. Even my own mother and mother-in-law felt pressure from their husbands to stay at home. You are right, they and their families have to love with whatever decisions are made and no one else should have an opinion in it.

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You have pointed out a glitch in my thinking I haven't considered in that as couples sit and talk unfortunately the man has the final say in most decisions. I admit to having seen this scenario in a lot of couples and I really don't agree with it, but it was none of my business. So I assume that the role of women is defined many times by how much power the woman is GIVEN by the man. How often this arrangement works or leads to a happy life I'm not sure of, but I can see where men can get the idea as head of the household they must dominate everyone in it. Personally I'd like a more equitable relationship built on more than my spouse just obeying whatever orders I give.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Personally I'd like a more equitable relationship built on more than my spouse just obeying whatever orders I give.

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See that's what we have and it works great. I was an independent person before I met my wife, I cooked, cleaned, sew, etc. She do all those things as well as help out with the "guy stuff" once in a while (mow the lawn, take out the trash, etc.). The best part is that we are on the same wavelength as it comes to our parenting/disciplining and that makes life a lot easier.

We make about the same money, have our own cars and our own bank accounts. There is nothing forcing us to stay together except for the fact that we love and respect each other and want to be together. In a relationship where the woman has never worked you often find that the woman will put up with quite bit of abuse because she would not know what to do if she ever left.

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We make about the same money, have our own cars and our own bank accounts. There is nothing forcing us to stay together except for the fact that we love and respect each other and want to be together. In a relationship where the woman has never worked you often find that the woman will put up with quite bit of abuse because she would not know what to do if she ever left.

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Your point is well taken Need, Its hard to work together when the man uses abusive means to run his house. Not a good way to treat a fellow human.

Solomon, under God's inspiration, records the character of a noble wife in Proverbs 31. A wise man and woman would do well to read it over and over again.

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Solomon, under God's inspiration, records the character of a noble wife in Proverbs 31. A wise man and woman would do well to read it over and over again.

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It looks like we have agreement and have put to bed a myth, that the bible gives man subjugation over women when the truth is more like man and woman should work together for the greater good of the family. I suspect that most of the holy books of other religions say the same thing but a lot is lost or interpreted for the sake of another's agenda. Thanks TEX.