There are many types of angels spoken of in scripture. There are ones that are simply messengers... such as Gabriel. There are some that wage spiritual warfare such as Michael. They are simply used to do the will of God. Guarding the garden of Eden so Adam and Eve did not return, destroying the walls of Jericho, sending answers for prayers. They have been used for many many things scripturally. Look through the bible when angels dealt with mankind. They identified themselves as being sent from God for "fill-in the blank" purpose. The bible tells us to test the spirits because not everything that PRESENTS itself as an angel really is... that's why it's important to know the purpose and motives of angels. If you think I am going to quote every verse in the bible that mentions an angelic situation, you can grab a copy of the Bible and read it for yourself.

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I am going according to the revealed Word of God for the definition of what a Christian is... not what someone THINKS it should mean

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The revealed word of God according to who?

Ask 20 Christians what a bible passage means, you'll get 20 different answers. That's why I don't adhere to the bible, because it's all in how you interpret it. It's not cut and dry.

Your interpretation isn't someone else's interpretation. So who's right? Who's wrong? If the bible is the "word of God" then wouldn't it be clear to everyone that read it? It's not. Go to the Christian forum of this site, you'll see how many interpretations each part of the bible has.

So, my question is this. Why should we take your interpretation as fact? What makes your interpretation any more valid then someone else?

Well, to be honest, anyone who says they can't believe the bible because everyone thinks it means something different is just plain lazy.

You're relying on others to make up your mind for you. Why not read it yourself... who cares what someone else THINKS it says. If you read it simply to see what it says it becomes VERY clear. In MOST cases it's because someone WANTS the Bible to mean something to fit their predetermined belief. I read the Bible to know what God has revealed to humanity... not to prove MY ideals. I get my ideals FROM the bible, not the other way around.

Do you think those hypocrites over at Westboro Baptist Church that are always in the news are following God's example of love and compassion? Just because they bend the Word of God to FIT their form of hatred, does not legitimize it. It takes SOME common sense to know when some people are right and wrong in their "version" of the bible.

I'm not pushing a special denomination or version of the bible... it means what it says and it says what it means. It's not that difficult.

I guess it's time for me to give you a bit of background on me.

I am 40 years old. I was raised Lutheran, baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran church. I went to a Catholic school from grade 2 until grade 12. That's 10 years. I've read the bible, I've studied the bible, I've done all of that. So no, I'm far from lazy.

I didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, today I think I'll be a Deist". It's something I thought about for a long time before making that choice. Why did I choose this faith, because the Christian faith makes no sense to me.

That doesn't mean that I don't respect your right to believe what you want, but please don't even try to tell me that the bible is only interpreted one way, that it says what it means and means what it says. That's not the case, not by a long shot.

Like I said, go to the Religious forum on this site. You'll see people of the same faith, same beliefs, arguing about what the bible means. So, if it says what it means, why do so many people have a different version of that meaning?

If it's not that difficult, why don't all Christians agree?

I didn't say the bible is only interpreted one way. That's the problem we're discussing. What I AM saying is that the Bible only has one meaning... it's when man gets his hands in there and messes things up that it becomes an issue. I told you, many people first believe something and then try and get the bible to fit their belief. Most problems will come from that. Just because someone says something does not mean it's correct. I am going to accept any person as a brother that confesses that Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their savior... no matter what they think about baptism or the rapture or ghosts. Some denominations are going to be more "man-made" than others and it sounds like your got a heaping spoonful of that between the Lutheran church and Catholicism. A lot of people come from those very showy and "religious" parts of Christianity hurt and confused. That will always happen if you see more of man in Christianity than of Christ.

I don't know what you encountered and I don't know your problems with Christianity... but I do know if you spend more time looking at what man has done and is doing than what God ACTUALLY said in His Word... you'll walk away feeling screwed every time.

Maybe you haven't been lazy in trying to study the Bible... but I still have to question people when they walk away from the bible and have no idea what to believe. A lot of people are saying that Christ is going to return on May 21st of this year. Does that bother me or scare me one bit? NO, because I know that the bible tells us very plainly that NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR OF HIS RETURN. Some people are just brainwashed and stupid... and I can't help that... but what I can tell you is that if you read it simply to see what God said... you'll walk away smarter than most "Christians" are.

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but I still have to question people when they walk away from the bible and have no idea what to believe.

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You're assuming that I don't know what to believe. Did you miss the part where I told you my beliefs? I'm a Deist. I know exactly what I believe, and it doesn't include the bible. I didn't walk away from anything, I found what works for me.

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Some people are just brainwashed and stupid... and I can't help that... but what I can tell you is that if you read it simply to see what God said... you'll walk away smarter than most "Christians" are.

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Now I'm brainwashed and stupid because I don't follow the bible in my beliefs? What makes you think I'm not already smarter then most "Christians"?

I don't want to turn this into a religious battle. There's never a winner, only two losers. You have a right to your beliefs, but realize that they're just that, beliefs. They're not factually based, any more then my beliefs are.

I'm not trying to change your mind about what you believe, and you won't change my mind either. Just try to respect the fact that not everyone feels the same way you do. Your beliefs come out in every one of your posts. That's fine, but stop stating them as fact, because they're far from it.

I wasn't calling YOU stupid and brainwashed... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs. I thought it was obvious I wasn't referring to you and for that I apologize.

I am VERY aware that not everybody believes the same... and even more aware not every one will have their mind changed by my beliefs... but, I'm sure you understand that for the sake of even one person I have to put those beliefs out there, because there are SOME that it might help.

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

...I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs.

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That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.

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Some are really offensive in the way they use scripture to justify their perverse actions. Others-not so much. One can say that they're all cults, but not all of them (I would say most of them even) use scripture to justify violence or hatred.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That's pretty much every christian denomination or else why would there be different denominations? Think about it.

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I don't have a pipe, so I think I will just stick to worshipping my garden and my tanned body as soon as I see some sun around here soon. Unless there is a tidal wave on Lake Ontario, then that will put a scotch to all my plans of a lovely garden this summer. I am quite close to Lake Ontario.

Bruce Nuclear Station isn't too far off either... note to self... must worry about that too.

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I wasn't calling YOU stupid and brainwashed... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs. I thought it was obvious I wasn't referring to you and for that I apologize.

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Apology accepted.

Question, you say that you're referring to sects and cults that twist scripture for their needs. I don't want to start a battle, but that includes every religious denomination I've ever studied. Like I stated before, ask 10 different Christians what a bible passage means, you'll get 10 different answers, even if they're of the same faith. So, who's wrong and who's right?

Do you realize that many religious groups will say that you're the one twisting the scriptures to suit your own needs? That's the nature of religion, they all believe they're the ones that are right.

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I am VERY aware that not everybody believes the same... and even more aware not every one will have their mind changed by my beliefs... but, I'm sure you understand that for the sake of even one person I have to put those beliefs out there, because there are SOME that it might help.

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You're right, there are some people that believe, and will feel comforted by your posts, but there are many more that do not believe in God, or the bible. I've seen you preach the bible in the paranormal forum, and the OP (original poster) has asked you to stop, because your beliefs aren't theirs. Did you stop? No. In fact, there have been times where you ridiculed them for not believing what you believe. That's not okay.

If you want to post in the paranormal forum, by all means do, but as soon as someone says that your beliefs don't work for them, accept that and move on. That's the main issue I have. To continue to post your beliefs when someone has clearly stated that they're not interested, that's no okay, not on any level.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

as soon as someone says that your beliefs don't work for them, accept that and move on. That's the main issue I have. To continue to post your beliefs when someone has clearly stated that they're not interested, that's no okay, not on any level.

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This is not on the topic of the OP, but as the OP I am going to allow myself to do this, haha...

I have had a lot of personal lessons about differences in opinions, values, principles, morals, etc etc. A friend of mine did something I was morally opposed to and when I asked her to consider not doing what she did, she simply said, "You and I have always viewed this differently." I reacted the only way I knew how, and that was by saying "I respect your rights, but I cannot talk to you about this anymore. Do what you have to do, but please accept my silence on the matter." That meant I didn't want to hear about it anymore and I couldn't advise her further. Though she didn't take it well at all and told me I abandoned her in a time of need... I can't figure out how I could have managed the situation differently to this day.

The way I see it: we all have personal beliefs, upbringings, and experiences that have formed us and almost always we enter a situation with those blinders on, assuming that *our* way IS the highway. I have a theory that we could really benefit in life if we realized two things:

1) Our views might clash with other people from time to time, and our advice might not be helpful, it might even be hurtful, if the person seeking advice views things differently. If you cannot help someone because you are just too different... then don't say anything at all.

2) If we are seeking advice and someone (especially a friend) cannot help you because they view the situation from a completely different angle... we need to accept it.

My non-confrontational approach might be too "protected", however.

I do think about it and KNOW about it. It's not really the same thing at all.

Altenweg - Yes, that happened one time... and it's something I'm not going to do again.

I have to disagree with you again on the "every Christian has their own interpretation" thing. The bible isn't as top secret as you're trying to make it sound. There are those that are just too wrapped up in themselves to see what it is really saying. There are very very FEW things that are actually hard to figure out what the bible is telling us. So what if one denomination claims you have to be baptized UNDER water while others just "sprinkle"... in the long run it doesn't matter and that kind of stuff is the MAJORITY of the denominational differences. They aren't struggling with whether Jesus was the Son of God or not... it's petty little things that don't matter... so who cares if they are wrong or right. It's not nullifying their ability to get into Heaven.

At the ascension of Christ into Heaven, an angel said to those witnesses that he would return in like manner. The bible goes onto say we will meet Him in the air when He returns for His church. Some people will read into all kinds of BS as to what it means... but what does it really say? It says He's going to return the same way he left. IT'S NOT THAT HARD... but there will always be some half-wit out there running his mouth about how he knows the REAL secret behind all of that. PLEASE! It means what it says!
The bible was meant for everyone to read and understand. It's not written for some that have a select knowledge. It's for CHILDREN to understand.

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

Altenweg - Yes, that happened one time...and it's something I'm not going to do again.

I have to disagree with you again on the "every Christian has their own interpretation" thing. The bible isn't as top secret as you're trying to make it sound. There are those that are just too wrapped up in themselves to see what it is really saying. There are very very FEW things that are actually hard to figure out what the bible is telling us. So what if one denomination claims you have to be baptized UNDER water while others just "sprinkle"...in the long run it doesn't matter and that kind of stuff is the MAJORITY of the denominational differences. They aren't struggling with whether Jesus was the Son of God or not...it's petty little things that don't matter....so who cares if they are wrong or right. It's not nullifying their ability to get into Heaven.

At the ascension of Christ into Heaven, an angel said to those witnesses that he would return in like manner. The bible goes onto say we will meet Him in the air when He returns for His church. Some people will read into all kinds of BS as to what it means...but what does it really say? It says He's going to return the same way he left. IT'S NOT THAT HARD...but there will always be some half-wit out there running his mouth about how he knows the REAL secret behind all of that. PLEASE! It means what it says!
The bible was meant for everyone to read and understand. It's not written for some that have a select knowledge. It's for CHILDREN to understand.

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I happen to agree with Altenweg on her interpitation. No the bible isn't secret. But when it comes to figure out the meanings for things even like commandments then you can have major splits. It goes way beyond sprinkling vs submersion. Christians are going to argue over method when they belong to different denominations. Also they will vary within the word. Just look at how many different versions of the bible that are out there today. It creates confusion amongst those of us that call ourself christian.

With that said. I do applaud you for taking to heart advice given to you in the paranormal thread and being less "preachy" as of late. Im glad this thread was started so we have a chance to air some things and express our differences. Thanks OP.

MY point about the whole Christian denominational differences is "so what". People are always going to argue and there is simply nothing we can do about that. But the world does need to know that not every Christian is like that and the bible CAN be simple. Don't let other people blur what the bible says. Even the different translations of the bible aren't worth saying "I just don't know what to believe". Hebrew and Greek don't translate into English so perfectly and I think the many translations have done a fine job in giving us, as a whole, a very accurate portrayal of what was written.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that it's the INTERPRETORS, not the interpretation, that are getting things wrong. When someone says something evil is haunting their home, I take great pride in knowing that Jesus Christ gave us authority over such power in His name. This was not just the 12 apostles... and some people will argue that of course... but when I have seen and felt it applied in real life... I'm not just guessing that that is what the bible meant... I now KNOW that is what it meant. So when some Catholic says that only a priest can perform such exorcisms, it's not my interpretation that says that is incorrect, it's my EXPERIENCE that says that. I'm not a priest. I'm not ordained in anything. However, I have, more than once, used said spiritual authority.

You see, once you get what the bible REALLY means down inside of you... you don't have to worry about what "so and so" from the church down the street thinks it means. When I read the bible and then see a bunch of Christians acting in a manner that defies what that bible says... it's the Christians that are wrong, not the bible. People usually end up blaming God and the bible for what some ignorant Christian said or did.

I do appreciate this thread and the OP for bringing it up. I hope nothing on here is taken personally and that we can all get a better feel for each other.

Hi W, Toronto Star reported today a tremblor occurred between Ottawa and Montreal yesterday which measured 4.5. Which made itself known in all of surrounding area. Not felt where our town is though, which is a bit west of that area.

So... be afraid, be very afraid...
Tick

Wondergirl finds this helpful : My mom is right across the lake from you, so please, no tsunmis for Lake Ontario!

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

MY point about the whole Christian denominational differences is "so what".

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a) you brought it up:

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
... I was referring to the various cults and sects that, very obviously, twist scripture for their needs.

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b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

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At least its going to happen after my son's birthday, that is very considerate.

I hope I learn how to merge posts before that.

Tick

Hello:

My religion says the end will be at 11:11 AM, on 11/11/11 - cause it just seems soooo right.

excon

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

b) you are a part of one of those since you believe that the earth will end on May 21 2011, this is told to you by a religious "scholar".

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Are you sure you have that right NK? I know "headstrongboy" was saying that stuff about May 21, 2011 in the "Seeking God" thread, but I didn't see "hauntinghelper" saying that here. I haven't read everything HH has said in other threads, but I just wanted to make sure.

HH-I like what you've said: too many people blame God when it's a human's interpretation of God's word that's wrong, not God who's wrong.

I personally am far too novice in this life to start talking about what God wants, though I tried when I was younger. I feel in my heart that, as a baby in the grand scheme of things, God doesn't have such high standards that seeking him/her/it as a member of X denomination of X religion will send me or anyone else to hell (if hell exists). Just be good in the best way you know how-and try not to step on many toes.

You're welcome for starting the thread. It's been really interesting thus far.

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I don't know if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I dunno if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

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I don't even believe in a hell. I am not so sure that God is "loving". "Love" is a corporal emotion, like hate, fear, and attraction. They help us as humans relate to one another, avoid danger, reproduce, etc. Why would an omniscient and omnipotent being have any need for human emotions? I think that God is much more distant from human-like than we (as egotistical creatures) have ever wanted to admit. If God is so much like the average joe I meet on the street... that's just plain scary!

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Originally Posted by southamerica

Are you sure you have that right NK? I know "headstrongboy" was saying that stuff about May 21, 2011 in the "Seeking God" thread, but I didn't see "hauntinghelper" saying that here. I haven't read everything HH has said in other threads, but I just wanted to make sure.

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You are absolutely correct, thanks for correcting me.

hauntinghelper: my apologies, I did indeed get you confused with HeadStrongBoy.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

My religion says the end will be at 11:11 AM, on 11/11/11 - cause it just seems soooo right.

excon

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Whew! My birthday is the 10th. I'll still be eating leftover cake.

You're correct... I do NOT believe that about May 21st 2011. I was using it as an example for what a cult is or how people twist scripture for their own needs. It's such a prime example of that because the bible so specifically says that no man will know the time of Christ's return. Funny how that doesn't stop them from saying that they know it.

Uhh... my apologies for the "red" mark. I didn't see this post until it was too late. Good thing you have quite the buffer of points.

I like to look at it this way. The bible tells us we were made in His image... let's not assume these emotions we have AS humans are strictly human in nature. There is a lot more of us that is God-like than is really taught to us. This could be more of a God attribute than a human one. Anger is not always bad... their is a righteous anger. Jealousy is not always bad... there is a righteous jealousy. Just because God displays emotions does not mean they are used in the same way ours are... very selfishly.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

I've tried to understand why this loving god would send his people to hell, or destroy them.. It never made sense to me, until a lady from the Westboro Baptist Church explained it to me. Yes, THAT Westboro Baptist Church.

She said that hell was the default, and you had to DO something to go to heaven. That makes so much more sense to me. A loving god WOULDN'T consign anybody to hell.

I dunno if this is worth anything, but I thought it clarified some stuff for me.

excon

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My dearest pal,

I'm confuzzled. I think.

Your friend was right.. God doesn't send anyone there and the ONLY thing you have to do ( according to what I understand in the Bible) is reject Christ as your savior.

A loving God wouldn't send anyone there, instead he sent his SON in your place.

You know exy.. I wouldn't keep on telling you that, if I didn't care. :)

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

uhh...my apologies for the "red" mark. I didn't see this post until it was too late. Good thing you have quite the buffer of points.

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No biggee. It's just a website.:)

HH-I can see what you're saying... and I could even accept it. The issue is so many religious people do make God selfish and human. It's when "God" throws a fit over simple human short-comings that the image of an all-knowing, all-loving creator/source and center breaks down... for me.

I could attribute love, empathy, altruism, and the like to a God. Those are rarely seen in animals the way they are in humans. The God version of all of those things is probably something that we cannot comprehend, yet. If it is-I would be disappointed :)

Well, let's look at it like this. Remember, by default humanity is born selfish and in sin. God had a plan, Jesus Christ... THE way THE truth and THE life, to redeem mankind back to himself, since sin of any kind cannot stand before this holy and perfect God. So, let's take the most "innocent" sin we can think of. Let's say someone wants to and DOES live a good life, yet does not want anything to do with Christianity. Remember, good in human terms is only relative to other humans... it still does not compare with God. No matter how peaceful and nice this person who lives this "good life" is... by not adhering to the life God called us to live so that we may have fellowship with Him (accepting Christ as our savior by dying in our place)... at the very core of this you have the rejection of God in your life. This person is saying I don't need Jesus Christ, I can make my own way to God. You see, there is really no sin that is just a "little" sin. It all has big issues at the core of it.

One can only be good according to HUMAN terms... we CANNOT be good enough to reach God on our own merit. That is the very reason Jesus Christ came. Because God loves man so much he made such a simple way to redeem them BACK to himself. John 3:16 - "For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only Son, that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

Well, let's look at it like this. Remember, by default humanity is born selfish and in sin. God had a plan, Jesus Christ...THE way THE truth and THE life, to redeem mankind back to himself, since sin of any kind cannot stand before this holy and perfect God. So, let's take the most "innocent" sin we can think of. Let's say someone wants to and DOES live a good life, yet does not want anything to do with Christianity. Remember, good in human terms is only relative to other humans...it still does not compare with God. No matter how peaceful and nice this person who lives this "good life" is...by not adhering to the life God called us to live so that we may have fellowship with Him (accepting Christ as our savior by dying in our place)...at the very core of this you have the rejection of God in your life. This person is saying I don't need Jesus Christ, I can make my own way to God. You see, there is really no sin that is just a "little" sin. It all has big issues at the core of it.

One can only be good according to HUMAN terms...we CANNOT be good enough to reach God on our own merit. That is the very reason Jesus Christ came. Because God loves man so much he made such a simple way to redeem them BACK to himself. John 3:16 - "For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only Son, that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

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Hi hauntinghelper,

Three questions.

What if someone has never encountered Christianity?

Some practices are relative but does this mean that all practices are relative?

Is a person amoral if they don't know or care about the rules?


A person is ethical if he/she is aware of certain rules they must or should follow. Does this mean that anyone who disagrees or doesn't follow these rules is unethical?

Regards

Tut

Romans 2:12-16

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.


God is a just judge. As you see people will be judged differently... according to how they lived according to His laws that ARE written on EVERY man's heart. It is a different situation altogether for someone living in a primitive part of the world who has never had the chance to hear the gospel vs. someone who does receive God's law and rejects it to serve his own ways. Not everybody will be judged the same.

Don't worry about other people... God can get through to anyone... don't use other people as an excuse not to come to terms with Him in your own life.

And to answer your last question... not knowing and not caring about the established moral law are two different things. As that above scripture states... everybody DOES have His law written on their hearts... so there really is no such thing as not knowing right from wrong. I hope you can understand how not caring is a big deal too.

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Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

...everybody DOES have His law written on their hearts...so there really is no such thing as not knowing right from wrong..

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What you miss is that my god, the Flying Spagetti Monster, has his law written into your heart, that's why you try to be good.

Please give us a break karma you don't even believe your own ethic. My God knows all sees all and at the appropriate moment rewards all, be in awe of this

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Originally Posted by paraclete

please give us a break karma you don't even believe your own ethic. My God knows all sees all and at the appropriate moment rewards all, be in awe of this

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There are several gods that people believe in, don't expect all to share yours. I am in awe of none of it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

There are several gods that people believe in, don't expect all to share yours. I am in awe of none of it.

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That's your problem no belief no reward

I'm already getting my reward - good family, good health, good friends - do you not have this as well?

I don't believe or care about eternal life if that's your planned rejoinder.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I'm already getting my reward - good family, good health, good friends - do you not have this as well?
I don't believe or care about eternal life if that's your planned rejoinder.

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Of course I have those things how do you think I can waste my time here but looking forward there is more