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Please, let's not sidetrack a perfectly good discussion about religious intolerance with other topics like who is or isn't the devil or how a passage from a holy book ought to be interpretted -- that is rightly so a whole other thread, isn't it?
We were all doing so good too!
I was referring to ANY deity. But lets look at your quote. Who created the thief? Who allowed the thief to exist? Are we sheep that we need to be led?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
How can a deity that will save a child from choking allows hundreds of children to die in hurricanes and tsunamis? How can a god that will answer the prayers of some ignore the prayers of so many?
If you want to believe in such a deity, that I am happy for you that you can find comfort in such a belief. But I ask that you respect my right to believe in concrete facts.
Sees my discussion of religious tolerance and its growing significance in this country being drowned out by the old "my diety or lack thereof is better than your diety or lack thereof" argument and smiles over the irony of that! :eek:
I give up! LOL
You are right, Val. We need another thread on where the devil came from and why. Should generate a lot of interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Based on what evidence? You are guessing, and guessing very badly. By way of contrast, look and see what INTOLERANCE has produced in the way of a lawless society.
Does your argument extend to every sphere of endeavour?
Politics?
Diet?
Entertainment?
Hair color?
Must everyone be like you or else all is lost?
M:)RGANITE
The Devil came down from Georgia. Didn't you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
M:)
I thought it was "the devil went down to Georgia" which would mean he was from the Carolina's (one of Jesse's or Strom's folk). Unless the reference is to Yankees... but I can't imagine that. (unless it's the team)
I just watched a documentary last night about the Amish. It went into great detail about Rumspringa - a period where teens are allowed to experiement with the world at large so if they choose to join the church, they do so with a complete understanding of all that is involved... talk about tolerance, religious or otherwise... WOW!
The documentary concluded with the statement that 90% of the young adults choose, at the end of Rumspringa, to return to the Amish way of life and join the church. That impressed me.
That is impressive. I applaud them.
The Amish also suffer from too much inbreeding. They have a genetic disorder that many are choosing to go against the elders to seek treatment in hospitals. Sorry to rain on the parade.
Well, I wasn't wholesale endorsing them Tal, lol, just pointing out one practice that I thought was pretty admirable... :p that's all! But I wasn't aware that they were opposed to seeking medical help from "english" sources?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Yes I thought it was a testament to their beliefs that the young people where given that choice, truly enlightened on their behalf. But their closed society has brought them problems genetically similar to what American Indians faced. Only Indians raided other tribes for women (and men) to renew the bloodlines. Not to take away from the Amish though. Don't understand the english reference though, but they have been adverse to outsiders coming in with the necessary medicines and forbid anyone going outside for treatment either. Boy am I off thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
To an Amish - who are derived from Germans/Hutterites, etc - the 'English' are ordinary non-Amish Americans. Like you, Tal.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
M:)
Pumpkin, I believe K_3 said contradiction not contraction. If you say you would not have a friend of another religion, that means you are intorlerant of that persons religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by K_3
In thinking it over for a while now, I also see looking back that intolerance may be somewhat tied to insecurity too. It seems to me that those who really believe have little cause to require others to, and those who stand on thinner faith ice are often the first in line trying to jam it down someone else's viewpoint -- as if it would bolster their own if someone else would just believe too, you know?
A strong personal belief in one's own faith should not be confused with a person's ability to criticize another person's faith -- they are two very different and separate things that sometimes get all tangled together. I like to try to keep the debate to the topic.
Like Tal, I have friends of all kinds of faiths. I mentally "reviewed" every strong faith person I know and almost all are like Rick-- they are quietly demonstrating their conviction without the need to ruffle one feather about anyone else's beliefs. They practice either being respectful when they speak of other religions or not saying anything at all, from what I have witnessed. The only exception I personally know is a friend who is in trouble on a lot of levels and very hypocritical, even illogical, so its easy to imagine his faith might not be the strong version he claims it to be. Its as if his excessive prostelizing is a means of denial for him -- those who are so busy looking at others don't have time to look at self --this is an action people in the recovery community are more than familiar with. LOL
So while I applaud and even admire those of strong faith, I don't care for any practice of religious intolerance-- however I would have either type of person as a friend and do, actually!
!Quote:
31pumpkin agrees: oops,meant to put the comment here. So why are you attacking my beliefs? Good ol fashioned jealousy Mom would say
I really don't think anyone is attacking your beliefs but you have to admit you sound so intolerant at times that people have to comment on it. Can't you love us the same way we love you without any strings attached? I really doubt if Mom would go along with the jealousy thing though.
I think there is some confusion. To be certain, not believing as you do is not the same as attacking beliefs Pumpkin-- yours or anyone's -- its just disagreement of beliefs. Please quote me directly where you think I have been attacking anyone's religious belief and I will do my best to clear up any misunderstanding. Without a direct quote of mine, its honestly hard to understand where you think it went wrong. And if I have done any attacking-- I would like the opportunity to make amends for it here... to you or to anyone that I have attacked. To deal in generalities is simply not fair so please, lets get specific. I value being tactful just like it says on my profile and I think I am pretty consistent in defending everyone's right to have their own religious beliefs too-- yours included. Besides, what is there to be jealous of, I am thoroughly confused there?
Pumpkin, I think you have a problem reading other people's posts. For some reason you are ready to jump at the conclusion that they are against you for some reason. In my post you disagreed with me and agreed with Cassie when we said the same thing. Val in no way put your religion down. She has not put anyone's down. I have not put anyone's down. I have certainly not put your religion down. Do you even know what faith I am? Do not take it so personally that this only is a discussion. I wonder if you are not comfortable in your faith when you feel you have to defend it so. I would like you to reread my post and tell me what is so wrong with befriending an unbeliever with the possibility of that person seeing what a beautiful life you lead to want to lead one also. Therefore becoming a believer. Again, I say, why is that so wrong?
I hope I have not strayed off the tolerance intolerance too much.
K 3 maybe you've hit on something we should all consider. In the zeal to affirm our faiths could it be possible we are all saying the same thing. Could we be just hearing what we want and are blinded by the fact we all say the same thing over and over. I don't know but it starting to sound that way to me and its hard to even see what the controversy is all about, until some one says " no your wrong" . Just me sometimes I loose it and don't always know it.
Not all refusal to comply with certain behavior or condemn it it either tacitly or overtly is wrong. Neither is intolerance per sey evil. It depends on what we are willing or unwilling to tolerate. In fact, tolerance under certain situations might be evil while intolerance might be morally correct. Amorality is not a virtue. Many people tolerated Hitler's views.
What were the results?
BTW
Being tolerant of other people's beliefs doesn't mean that we are obligated to make them our friends or to associate with them. It merely means that we grant them their right to their opinions.
Is Intolerance Of Sin Wrong Blog
... Is Intolerance Of Sin Wrong. If I refuse to condone a 45 year old man living with and... that make me intolerant? Is intolerance wrong?
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1127831309.htm
Of course you are correct here but that wasn't the case we were discussing. Someone mentioned that here and in another thread that christian should not associate with non-christians. They were not saying that they are not obligated to be friends with them, they are saying they they are obligated NOT to be friends with them. Big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
It is all in the approach. Somebody tries to force their religion down somebodys throat. That they are right and your wrong. That does not win anybody over. That pushes them away and keeps them farther away. You Pumpkin whether you realize that or not. You do that. So in fact you are pushing people away from God by the way you approach others. You need to be open to others beliefs, opinions, and be friend all people no matter what. That will bring you closer to God and bring others closer to God. That is what I believe.
Joe
I understand that right is granted by the God of my understanding, its called free will. So it is simply not yours to grant, Starman. The problem with some people is how they do not respect that gift from our Creator when other people use it. The US Constitution allows for religious freedom, which was defined then and now to mean any and all beliefs or lack thereof are to be respected in all aspects of life. While it protects religious expressions of all kinds in personal and commercial life, it also wisely restricts expression of any religious views in public life (schools, governemnt, etc) since it would cause a problem selecting WHICH view (a whole other thread here too btw). It is not the atheist view being expressed there, its no view -- there is a gigantic difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
So you see that religious intolerance is against the wishes of God and the laws of the US-- makes it kind of hard to have any compelling argument for it now, doesn't it?
If you want to make a claim that God granted free will but expected some of the overly enthusiastic people to become special-priviledged spiritual squads enforcing faith where faith is needed regardless of free will, then you haven't learned much from the lessons of Hitler. As for the people who supported him--it was because they weren't thinking it through AND they were buying into the idea of some terrible kind of "them and us" , the VERY idea overly zealous religious people often have -- by the way. Let's look closer and see how to amend that: what do you suppose counters "not thinking it through"? Free Will! And what counters that old "them and us" thinking? Understanding that all people are God's children which would require respecting all of them.
I will defend to my death your right to be Christian, Starman, even though I will likely never be. And that is because I believe in freeedom, equality, and I got the message loud and clear from my Creator about you being just like me, a human being seeking spiritual growth and I respect that. But that means I am too. And you need to afford me the same privilege.
Now if all you Christians need to start a thread to debate who you might befriend and all the other theological conflicts Christianity is rife with, feel free. But please consider acknowledging that you do so largely because you are excersizing religious tolerance within Christianity itself! LOL
Have to spread it aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Totally my point, in order to debate an issue, each has to listen to the words and not think they know what the person is going to say and start formulating an answer before the post has been read.
Religious Tolerance -
Allowing people the freedom to have their own beliefs & related actions, without necessarily validating those beliefs.
"The only way one can start to reconcile the different religions is to take the god out of the religion, and reduce them to a bunch of feel good moral teachings about loving one another and "can't we all just get along" sentiments. You reconcile the religions by making them non-religious."
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Ephesians 2:1-7
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. And God raises us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
Unity in the Body of Christ-
Ephesians 4:3-7 - Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one Spirit- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one(or God) God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
Thank you Lord. Anything else would be lying to myself & settling for less.
God is in other religions, some may not believe in Jesus, they believe in God. I am such a frim believer in my faith that I am not threatened by others who do not have the same faith, therefore I am tolerant of them. As I said before, others have come to believe as I because of my tolerance of others. Jesus walked among nonbelievers to show them the way.
So much for seeing direct quotes of what I said.
And oddly enough, I agree:
So how did reconciling get in the mix? I only see one person proposing that and its definitely not me. I think the pendulum is being swung too far the other way now. I am not proposing a homogenized mix of all religions to be embraced by everyone! Ugh to that...Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Yes K3, I have witnessed to dozens of people. Their hearts were willing though.
Yes, that is the Great Commission also. Except, I am not hearing anyone on this forum "wanting to be shown the way" It's quite obvious. And it may be too late for certain happenings before unbelievers come to see the light.
And for those in the faith, I suggest they go back to the Bible or Church or Seminary school before they try to say some pitiful words like"pathological" to another believer. Don't be so sure that I am Morganite. Check it out thoughly about having close friends that are unbelievers. We are only "friends" to bring them to Christ. And if that is unfruitful, we are to part company. You commit a grand faux paux(and possibly a sin), Morganite, by going against the believers!
The good thing about this is that we can be assured that your like will stay within your own self-defined small-minded boundaries. I personally would rather befriend the likes of Rickj and Tal who feels strongly about their religious beliefs and could care less about the beliefs of other good people.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Pumpkin, realize that your strict beliefs that include needing to convert non-believers put you in a minority: those who believe that those who are not like them are somewhat lost and inferior. You can't possibly begin to understand how annoying that is to those of us who are very comfortable in their life and who dislike all the preaching and conversion attempt. It would be different if I walked into your church/synagogue/temple/etc looking for answers but you shove it down people's throat's at every turn.
I still contend that religion is to spirituality what regional cooking is to food --- and its all good!
And now... I'm out of here cos' I need some lunch! :p
So Needkarma - Does your creed entail the need to feel superior by belittling others? That's your choice. A friend is measured in other ways too. So if your belief system makes you have to be politically correct all the time, then you can keep it. You're the one who believes in the "flying spaghetti monster" And good luck with praying to him/her.
One thing I noticed where you could ponder is: You said, " You've got to keep in mind your god put you there. My god would never put me in such a perilous place". Now, do you know how unrealistic that belief is? You are going to be in a dangerous place if that is what God desires. How you make it out will have a lot to do with your faith in the one true God.
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Now, I have to go also. Driving lessons for my 2nd daughter. This is hard in a way. Anyone with a minute- All prayers will be appreciated! Help! :confused:
Very true, but:Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkin31
In the context of AMHD we are not asking anyone to validate anothers beliefs just respect that they differ from our own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
As this is a PRIVATE web site, you have to register to become a member and post, we expect a certain degree of lalitude from our members.
Extremist views from any stand point are neither welcomed nor encouraged.
The highlighted parts I believe are the most appropriate in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReligiousTolerence.org
For further information Here's the site
I hope I have made my views clear !
Sin or not, religious intolerance is definitely a basis for an infraction at AMHD. Thanks for making that crystal Ben. This has been a good topic too Joe-- thanks!
I don't see any inidcation that NK belittled you. He made some factual statements cased on what you have posted. He disagreed with the actions that we have seen on your part. But he didn't belittle you.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
This illustrates anothert thing I have noticed about you. You tend to take offense very quickly. In many cases where it was neither stated or implied.
Let me get this straight. You believe in a god who can intervene to answer your prayers. Yet this same god doesn't control the situations he puts you into? In my opinion, to believe that, requires a suspension of logic and a degree of blind faith that comes from refusing to accept facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
ScottGem - I'm sorry but I really can't understand what you are describing. If it was offensive to you then I'm sorry even if I can't wrack my brain to figure it out. Also, I think you mistook the quote to be mine, not N.K's. Either way I'm not going to argue because I like quiet. Not a type A personality. Let N.Karma defend his own whatever you are referring to. Thank you!
I would greatly appreciate that you please stop attributing crazy ideas to me based on snap interpretations. Do you really believe that I believe human rights find their source in me? The word "grant" is used within the context and the context clearly indicates what meaning is intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
You say respect everyone?
Sorry but I don't respect serial killers, child molesters, rapists, murderers, and people of that sort. Neither does God require that I respect these people. Neither does God require that I be their friend and associate with them on a companionship basis. I do acknowledge that they have certain rights-of course and would never try to deprive them of such rights. That would be following their example of depriving people of property, life, happiness, good health, peace of mind, and free will. An example that is not Christian.
You speak of free will. But unrestrained free will isn't granted by any government on earth and for very good reasons. Neither did God grant it. The reason he didn't is because it leads to social chaos and pandemonium. We have freedom within the parameters of his laws and regulations and it's for our own good. It helps to
Prevent, the abuse of the weaker by the stronger and courses of action leading to self injury or self destruction due to lack of wisdom.
About claiming one thing or the other, I derive my beliefs from the Bible. So they are not MY personal claims as you seem to imply. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter. But to imply that they are merely my beliefs is a misrepresentation.
About Christiians telling others about the Good News of God's kingdom
That's an assignment that Jesus gave. It isn't meant as harassment or disrespect for anyone else's beliefs. It is merely a sharing of something valuable with others.
Also, the comparison between Hitler's insane policies and those of Christians who are teaching God's Word and trying to live by biblical principles is unjustified. People within the churches are free to leave whenever they wish. Those who are members of churches who are stricter were taught what was expected of them and voluntarily agreed to abide by the rules. No one twisted their arm or otherwise forced them into membership. So it is a totally voluntary thing. A concept totally
Alien to Hitler.
BTW
Christianity has no conflicts. People do. Neither does God consider all humans his children.
Some, based on their behavior, he views as children of the devil.
Not that this is an excuse to persecute them, so please don't jump to that conclusion. Only that he doesn't quite see things in the way you are describing them.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV
Starman,
That bible quote implies some strange stuff. If one's father was an alcoholic or a wife-beater then that bible quote seems to imply that the children of this man are doomed to be branded as such regardless of how they really are as people. This doesn't seem to have any basis in real life. It would be horrible to imagine a world where children of defective parents cannot break the cycle and become better people.
What was offensive to me was your accusation that NK was belittling you when I saw no evidence of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
As for the quote, it was from your note. The first part (in quotes) was your quoting NK. But the second part was your response to what he said. That's what I was responding to.
We may be more in agreement than not here Starman.
I thought I detected a tone of superiority or even arrogance in the use of that word and addressed it by speaking of principles instead of personalities-- as so not to make it personal. Forgive me if I was incorrect but I may not be the only one who was. So this may also be a hint to you to use more gentle words in some places too? Just a thought...Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Honoring their rights is a form of respect. So we agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I agree here too only I wouldn't call it "restrained" as much as "affected". We all indeed have total free will, we can do anything we please at anytime with anyone for any reason-- but what it comes with is a consequence. All actions have consequences, that is inescapable. Laws impose negative consequences for certain actions. And I believe (contrary to some beliefs) that God set this all up so that there are both negative and positive consequences to every single action we take and expects us to pay attention to that. But that does not diminish free will one atom's worth-- it only encourages us to learn and obey spiritual and secular laws. Each of us makes the decisions which to obey and which not to -- we are responsible for that just as the Creator intended. We each modify our own free will as we see fit just as the Creator intended. It's a marvelous plan, frankly. We agree, Starman, that gaining wisdom is good; we just have minor differences as to the details of that wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Factually they are your beliefs based on what you have learned from one of the holy books found on earth. They are still just your beliefs regardless of the significance of that book in particular. As are all our beliefs. No one is able to express more than that, which is kind of cool as it levels the playing field - another marvelous design by our Creator. Each of us has a belief. Please bear in mind that only Chistians believe the bible to be the word of God. Your deriving your beliefs from it is good for you and significant to me only in that its one of several holy books I like to consider. You may claim your source is greater than mine but I can do the very same thing back atcha-- another mexican stand off there! How can you express anything more than your personal belief when no one else can either?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Trust me, its harassment if its uninvited. Its disrespectful if it contains a cloaked put-down of another's religion. I am not alone in supporting those definitions either-- as you can plainly see on this thread. There is a way to talk about it that does neither and those folks who has mastered that could be easily modelled. Fortunately, there have been many examples of it posted on this thread too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Tsk tsk--You are changing the comparison! It certainly was not "those of Christians who are teaching God's Word and trying to live by biblical principles" that I was referencing in my comparison and you know it too. I realise it was subtle so let me make it plain who I was comparing -- the overly zealous Christians (or any other religious extremists) who do some really ungodly things in the name of God. I agree with you here about its unjustified but you are the one who made this comparison so get a better argument Starman, this one doesn't behoove you! LOL And I should like to add that support of Hitler started completely voluntary in a besotted Germany desperate for answers. (and I am not sticking up for him or those times either here, okay? LOL)Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Again we don't disagree. I know that Christians believe this and its one of two basic reasons I won't ever be a Christian. Where we do disagree is what God considers and I understand from a source I trust (just as much as you trust your bible, btw) that God made us all and therefore we are all God's children, albeit some are more sick than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I enjoy discussions with you Starman, thank you.
Val,
In all fairness to christians I truly believe that Starman and Pumpkin represent a very small minority of christians in their very specific views. The vast majority of christians do indeed believe that we are all God children and 'love the sinner but not the sin'. I'd hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Thank you NeedKarma, snatches the baby back just in time!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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