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Originally Posted by Starman

Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.

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... and you believe her?



M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by Morganite

... and you believe her?



M:)RGANITE

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I will assume you are making a joke.

BTW
Please read the info I added to the original question.

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."


That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)

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Er... I hesitate to say this, but Rev. John R Cash was not singing about Hell, he was singing about lurve! If you have never been in lurve you will not undertand.



M:DRGANITE

Look who's in a critical mood today!

If you didn't get the humor of it . Oh well! And no, poor me I only have a 2 yr. college degree, so no I have no clue what lurve is. I didn't like J.Cash much anyway.

I preferred good old soft rock like Dincan Duncan by Paul Simon or Our Spirits in the Material World by Sting or the Police.

Anyway, it's how you use that education. Use your talents I think! That's in the Bible. I don't think lurve is.

You are probably more aware of Tina Turner's "What's lurve got to do with it"?

Johnny Cash's song begins, "Lurve is a burning thing... "

Miss the humour?

M:(RGANITE

Can I help it if your singer can't pronounce love right?

And do you mean, "get the humor?" Saying " MISS the humor?" implies that I never got it in the first place.


:D

Ok, I'll tell you what I believe to be true. First, God cannot dwell with any unclean thing. He will not be in the presence of anything unperfect. He does not create anything evil, nothing evil can come from Him. He has given us all the freedom of choice. We are all responsible for our own actions only.

This brings me to my second point. God has not created a place of torture to send people. It is our own actions that gets us to where we are going in the end. He doesn't "send" us anywhere. It's like our own children. There are consequences to everything they do, as there are consequences with everything that we do. Therefore it is ultimately up to us. I think we will only be judged according to what we actually know to be right or wrong. If a person doesn't know then it is not fair of God to judge them on that, and I don't think He would.

Third, God did not create hell (or whatever you want to call it). I think whatever the place is was created when Satan was cast out with his followers. I don't believe in a hell exactly like with burning fires or anything. I do believe there is more than the two options, heaven or hell. Hell might be seeing what you could have had. Now that would be torture, having known better while on earth and choosing not to do better, then having to answer for it. I believe that we all have choices and we will end up where we truly belong. I think it will be very black and white, wrong is wrong and right is right. If you know it, you have to answer for it. For all of the inbetweens, they will be clear and only God and Jesus will be able to judge that. Whew. Thank goodness God is kind, gentle, merciful, loving and forgiving.

We will create our own future, even the eternal one.

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Can I help it if your singer can't pronounce love right?

And do you mean, "get the humor?" Saying " MISS the humor?" implies that I never got it in the first place.


:D

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Yes. You didn't get it!


M:pRGANITE

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Yes. You didn't get it!


M:pRGANITE

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Oh yeah? Well it was me who posted the joke in the 1st place!

But it doesn't matter. I'll forgive you for that!!

:p

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Originally Posted by aqua@home

Ok, I'll tell you what I believe to be true. First, God cannot dwell with any unclean thing. He will not be in the presence of anything unperfect. He does not create anything evil, nothing evil can come from Him. He has given us all the freedom of choice. We are all responsible for our own actions only.

This brings me to my second point. God has not created a place of torture to send people. It is our own actions that gets us to where we are going in the end. He doesn't "send" us anywhere. It's like our own children. There are consequences to everything they do, as there are consequences with everything that we do. Therefore it is ultimately up to us. I think we will only be judged according to what we actually know to be right or wrong. If a person doesn't know then it is not fair of God to judge them on that, and I don't think He would.

Third, God did not create hell (or whatever you want to call it). I think whatever the place is was created when Satan was cast out with his followers. I don't believe in a hell exactly like with burning fires or anything. I do believe there is more than the two options, heaven or hell. Hell might be seeing what you could have had. Now that would be torture, having known better while on earth and choosing not to do better, then having to answer for it. I believe that we all have choices and we will end up where we truly belong. I think it will be very black and white, wrong is wrong and right is right. If you know it, you have to answer for it. For all of the inbetweens, they will be clear and only God and Jesus will be able to judge that. Whew. Thank goodness God is kind, gentle, merciful, loving and forgiving.

We will create our own future, even the eternal one.

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I agree that what a man is sowing that too he shall reap as Jesus said.
My quandary is concerning those mentalities that glibly say God condemns people to be tortured forever and then turn around and say torture is immoral.

Now, the Greeks had no such problems since their gods went about behaving in immoral ways and they imitated them. Warfare, rape, envy, murder, theft, were all part of their gods' behavior and was accepted with no problem whatsoever. The problem emerges among certain groups of Christians who claim that God is just in condemning humans to eternal torture while simultaneously claiming that torture is a heinous crime if humans do it. That is the crux of the matter I am seeking an answer to.

As for creating a place for torture, if indeed such a place exists, it would have to be with God's consent. Otherwise we would have to say that God is not responsible any afterlife experience experienced by his intelligent sentient creatures-something that is completely alien to the Bible and Christianity.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on those certain groups of Christians you are talking about. I have know idea how they justify their beliefs.

I am not saying that God is not responsible for us after this life here on earth. To the extent of his consent in allowing us to be tortured or live with our consequences, I believe that He has told us what He expects of us. I believe He will give us every opportunity to right our wrongs. When we have full knowledge and choose to repent or not, is when judgement comes. If He did not allow us to live with our consequences, well, He would be a liar. He must do as He says or how could anyone have any faith in anything He said. He is bound to his word.

Back to your question. My apologies for veering so far off topic. I really don't know how what's good for God would not be good for us. He is the ultimate example. I too would be interested to hear how people justify this. I don't know of a time when the God I believe in has ever tortured anyone. I only believe in one God. No, pardon me, I only worship one God.

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Originally Posted by aqua@home

Unfortunately I cannot comment on those certain groups of Christians you are talking about. I have know idea how they justify their beliefs.

I am not saying that God is not responsible for us after this life here on earth. To the extent of his consent in allowing us to be tortured or live with our consequences, I believe that He has told us what He expects of us. I believe He will give us every opportunity to right our wrongs. When we have full knowledge and choose to repent or not, is when judgement comes. If He did not allow us to live with our consequences, well, He would be a liar. He must do as He says or how could anyone have any faith in anything He said. He is bound to his word.

Back to your question. My apologies for veering so far off topic. I really don't know how what's good for God would not be good for us. He is the ultimate example. I too would be interested to hear how people justify this. I don't know of a time when the God I believe in has ever tortured anyone. I only believe in one God. No, pardon me, I only worship one God.

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God is the universal judge and determines what the consequence of sin is. Adam was told that if he sinned he would die. Adam knew the meaning of death since he was told he would return to his former condition of being dust. Since Adam knew nothing and felt nothing in the condition of dust, he expected that to be his punishment if he sinned. At no time did God tell Adam that he would wind up at the mercy of demons who would be allowed to torture him for eternity. If indeed God had intended such a consequence for sin, then fairness required that Adam be informed. But he wasn't informed because God had not set eternal torture up as a consequence for sin nor allowed anyone else to set up a torture chamber to torture sinners. That idea was introduced later and echoes the lie that Satan told Eve, that she would not die.

BTW
Would you tell your kids that they will be punished in a certain way if they disobey and then later have them realize that you had something much worse in mind?

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Originally Posted by Starman

If punishing crime via torture is wrong for humans how can it be thought to be right for God?

Addendum:

Let me say that the only reason I posted it was to get an honest opinion to this seeming paradox of people condemning humans who torture and praising a God they feel sends people to be tortured. I also posted it because a defamation of God's character should be defended against by anyone who claims to be a Christian or anyone else who loves God. I consider the accusation that God created a place of torture to send the disobedient an insult to God. An idea which depicts him as sadistic. Now, to remain silent in the face of such a depiction is to cooperate with the defamation via silence. Therefore, when I posted this thread, I assumed that those who say they love God would take it as an opportunity to come out in his defense by disproving the accusation either scripturally or via logic.

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That seems like a bit of a trap. If you had explained it that way in your original question you would probably have had different response because experts would understand where you were going with the question.

Any perecived paradox might disappear if you consider that God is just and, therefore, cannot act in any manner that is unjust.

I'd be interested in hearing your idea about what happens to the wilfully disobedient in the eternities.



M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by Morganite

That seems like a bit of a trap. If you had explained it that way in your original question you would probably have had different response because experts would understand where you were going with the question.

Any perecived paradox might disappear if you consider that God is just and, therefore, cannot act in any manner that is unjust.

I'd be interested in hearing your idea about what happens to the wilfully disobedient in the eternities.





M:)RGANITE

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A trap leading to my own frustration as I sought to clarify what I really meant? LOL

Believe me, if I had known that the original way I expressed the question was going to lead to a misunderstanding of what I meant I would have phrased it differently. But once the misunderstanding took root it seemed virtually impossible to clarify for some mysterious reason .

About the truly willfully disobedient, which can only be determined by God and not man, God said that the punishment is nonexistence, the returning to dust.


BTW

There is no way that I can consider eternal torture as just regardless of who is commanding it to be done. Are you familiar with the reason of why torture is considered a crime?



Torture and Punishment in Elizabethan Times.
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Torture and Punishment


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Hi
I am a christain and when you mean how can it be right for God to torture while it is wrong for humans, I don't know in the bible if God comanded anyone to do such act? So if you know any please shed a light. But you may mean how God commands people to be killed i.e the cananities then the response would be that God is not under any obligation to extend life to anyone whether adults or children. It is His progative if he wants and sees fit that someone should lose their life then he is within his right to take that life. As he is the giver of life and thus that life belong to Him and he can take whenever He wants.