Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

Is there any proof that saddam wasn't supporting osama

---

Logistically you don't try to prove that something did not happen. For instance: Is there any proof that George Bush is not a devil worshipper? See? It doesn't work that way. The Saddam/Osama link was presented to us by the top echelon of the US military, unfortunately they seem to be wrong. Saddam is indeed a tyrant but his involvement in Osama's nefarious plans has yet to be conclusely proven. If you can offer some concrete proof it would be interesting to see.

Thank you NEEDKARMA... you hit the nail right on the head! Where's the proof. THe facts are there is NONE! That was just a smokescreen for the real reason we are fighting this war. GREED. OIL. MORE GREED. And now our gas prices are going up again to an all new record high. Yea, Bush is great... hah!

So let me ask.
What would you have done.
They have proof he was on his way to becoming the next hitler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

So let me ask.
What would you have done.
They have proof he was on his way to becoming the next hitler.

---

I would have taken a step back and wondered: "what do they hate us so much that they would want to take such drastic measures to hurt us? what policies of ours incite so much hatred?"

BTW Hitler had charisma and a whole nation following him, Osama did not nor does he have a huge army and the proper technology to overun the world.

Any time a U.S. president goes into war with our troops for his own reasons we become a Dictatorship and not a Democracy. We the people should have the last say as to whose *** we want to kick. Not a group of billionaire globalist with a hidden agenda. I am sorry my fellow Americans but our country and our freedom is slipping away from us... and fast. I am to the point I do not trust anyone! They are all out for their own gain by promoting their own agenda. That is what an elected position has become.:mad:

Aw shucks, stopped by the spread rule:

I AGREE!! Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq: Should've never gone there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

Is there any proof that saddam wasn't supporting osama

---

The question is not whether there is proof that he wasn't but whether there is proof that he was. And no proof has been uncovered to support that he was. That was just another piece of information put forward by the Bush Administration to justify this war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

So let me ask.
What would you have done.
They have proof he was on his way to becoming the next hitler.

---

What proof? There was the Iraq-Iran border war that ended in a draw. Then Hussein got his nose blooded in an ill considered and ill fated incursion into Kuwait. Since he got creamed by the elder Bush in a war justified by Iraq's aggression, Hussein has done nothing but saber rattling. Everything else he did (and there were atrocities. That's why he's being tried for war crimes) was done within his own borders. If he was such a tyrant, then why didn't the oppressed subjects rise up against him. If they had done so during Desert Storm, the elder Bush might have had the backing to finish the job.

What would I have done? I would have continued exactly what we were doing. Using boycotts and economic sanctions to keep him confined to his own borders. I would have heightened our prepardedness so that we could strike back decisively and swiftly if he attacked.

I firmly believe that Hussein was playing with us. He made us believe that he had more weaponry then he did. He was thumbing his nose at us and enjoying his ability to jerk America's chain. His big mistake was underestimating Dubya's pride and stupidity. I don't think he ever believed that Dubya would be stupid enough to invade.

If you look at the facts, these conclusions become almost inescapable.

Edit:
What does the mass graves have to do with anything? As I said, that's why he is being tried. There was no question about his attacks against the Kurds. But that was internal. How do you think America would have reacted if another country interferred with us because of what we did to Native Americans?

Here is what I think we need. A place to post and communicate with people from Iran, Iraq and everywhere. The software should translate to any lanuage you want to communicate in. All the people of the world are my brothers and sisters and I send them a mental message of love every day. I want to tell them that I do not want to fight with them. I want their Children and Grand children to live peaceful, abundant lifes along with mine. When we the people begin to communicate instead of just hearing and reacting the rhetoric of these greedy, self serving fools that are controlling things now, I bet you things will start to change. Tell me true, do any of you really want to kill anyone because of oil or any other material thing. GOD has always provided me with everything I have ever needed, not this boondoggle we call government. Is there any software that has been developed to provide such a forum? Is there such a forum? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magprob

Here is what I think we need. A place to post and communicate with people from Iran, Iraq and everywhere.

---

Actually the Internet has provided such a venue. The Internet had a direct impact on the collapse of the Soviet Union. The ability of people within the Soviet Union to see what was really going on in Western countries and to communicate with Western peoples showed them that their leaders had lied to them.

Unfortunately, the communications facilities in MidEast countries are not as good as in other areas. And they are more tightly controlled by government.

Quote:

---

They have proof he was on his way to becoming the next hitler.

---

If that's true, then the troops should have invaded Rwanda, where one of the worst genocides since the Holocaust recently took place. But the world turned a blind eye to the devastation there. Why? Because Rwanda is not a rich country, no oil or any other exploitable resources.

Edit: Yes you're right magprob, they are African, and the African continent is being almost completely ignored right now.

OK... then this is what we need... underground internet cafes! :} Yes, I understand, why, Google has designed the software to allow the tyrants running China to keep a tight grip on the free speech on the internet. Anything for a buck! Guess I'll just have to go back to my original plan. Rent an airplane and start dropping flyers! How many people live in that region anyway? Hope this old HP printer is up to it.
I am being bombarded with the mess Bush has us in. I just received this:

This was originally sent by a retired Coca Cola
executive It's worth a try.

Join the resistance!! I hear we are going to hit
close to $4.00 a gallon by next summer and it might
go higher! Want gasoline prices to come down? We
need to take some intelligent, united action.

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy gas on a certain
day" campaign! It was more of an inconvenience
to us than it was a problem for them.

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have
conditioned us to think that the cost of a gallon of gas is
CHEAP at $1.75, we need to take aggressive action to
teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace.. not
sellers.

Since we all rely on our cars, we can't just stop
buying gas. But we CAN have an impact on gas prices if
we all act together to force a price war

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase
ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies
(which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL. If they are
not selling gas, they will be forced to reduce prices.

It's well worth the effort because this has potential to work.
Send Exxon-Mobil a message. Their profits for last year were
off the map - only because we bought their gas. Therefore,
we are just as much to blame if we continue to increase
their profit margins. If we don't buy their gas, they will
lower prices. This is the American spirit that made this country
so great. Let's work together and show these fat cats that
"we, the people" are the heart and soul of this country.

To have an impact, we need to reach literally millions
of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do! Now,
don't wimp out at this point...

I'm sending this to 30 people.
If each of us send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and
those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 =
3,000)... and so on, by the time the message reaches
the sixth group of people, we will have reached over
THREE MILLION consumers.

If those three million get excited and pass this on to
ten friends each, then 30 million people will have
been contacted! If it goes one level further, you
guessed it... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!

Let's do it!!
Things are getting out of hand folks!

How many of the worlds tyrants have started as a small potato?
Then gotten bigger?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

How many of the worlds tyrants have started out as a small potato?
Then gotten bigger?

---

Yes, that's it - let's murder them early if they show signs of being bad. Why hasn't the US taken out Kim Jong-Il?

I am talking about the history of the world.
Maybe we got this one before he got to big.

As I said earlier, we need to focus on our country... and the wars that are going on within this nation... like drugs and poverty. Katrina was a perfect example of how we have failed to do this. It is very sad that there are so many countries out there that have horrible poverty levels and terrible things happening to them. But Bush doesn't REALLY care about that. He only cares about what he can REAP from other countries, and make it look like he is the BIG hero of the day. HAH!

Now Bush says that the oil companies "may" be price gouging. If the price of gas drops soon, due to Bush looking into it, will he be our hero once again?

"MAY"?? On New Years Eve, one gas station near me ( pass it going to and from the highway) started the day with a price of $2.59. On my way home it had risen to $2.65. On the way home from our New Years festivities it was up to $2.75!

Does anyone believe they got a delivery between 8PM (when I left for the party) and 1AM (when I returned) on New Years Eve?

Gas stations and gas companies should be made to charge what they PAY for gas. Not what their supplier tells them the next delivery will cost. When they get the delivery, they can raise the price even though their may still be cheaper gas in the tank. That's reasonable. But to raise prices based on the cost of their NEXT delivery??

And the stations are not totally at fault. Their suppliers are raising the prices based on anticpated increases, not real ones. When the price goes up on the commodities market, prices are raised and passed down the line. Even though they are selling stockpiles that were made from lower priced crude. That's why the oil companies posted huge windfall profits after Katrina.

So one might think they would temper their price raises to compensate. But obviously not. And why not? Because they they have a friend in the White House who won't do anything about it.

Here in Northern IL it is supposed to go up to $3.00 by memorial day and not go down from $3.00 all summer long, or at least that is what they are predicting. That is ridiculous! And now since the news reported this, you better believe those gas station owners are thinking they can raise them now, since everyone is expecting it, not because they need to.

Well yes! I say to ScottGem first and foremost! Bush is spoiled. But in a good way. Did you not think that that can happen to Christian men too? Or are you just a tad bit jealous..


~ I didn't vote at all this time around. I moved and the rush for me to register was a pain. I wasn't so happy with the war, & the Democrats couldn't even take advantage of the "deficit thing" Instead they offered that clown Kerry. But now I'm glad God was in control and put Bush in. My husband had no problem voting, and for Bush. Forget about it!

Now in regards to your post- Cgirl - When you say "we" should concentrate on this country's needs more. Don't you mean the Politicians and Bush?
Last I checked... I wasn't getting paid for rebuilding New Orleans. In fact, the Army Corp of Engineers are trying to do a better job building up the levies this time. Bush has given plenty of tax cuts to those affected by Katrina.
Private citizens donated mucho dinero to the casualty funds.
The rest is up to God and a few thousand truckloads of good people.

Have a lovely day!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Well yes! I say to ScottGem first and foremost! Bush is spoiled. But in a good way. Did you not think that that can happen to Christian men too? Or are you just a tad bit jealous............?

---

Huh? I haven't a clue what you refer to. Not even sure how someone can be spoiled "in a good way". The word spolied means to turn rotten. And what would I be jealous of?

Try dealing with the real points I made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crazytrain

I am talking about the history of the world.
Maybe we got this one before he got to big.

---

The fact is that Hussein DID get too big. That was when he invaded Kuwait. What happened then was the proper reaction. He was condemned for his aggression by the just about every nation. They banded together to throw him out of Kuwait. He was contained at that time. There was no proof he was going to try such an act of aggression again.

AMEN ScottGem!

And as for Katrina, yea, now Bush has his tail between his legs and is fixing things now, but TO LITTLE TOO LATE. What about all of the poverty that was ignored before Katrina happened? What about all of the people that were forgotten when Katrina struck? THe Levie's would have held up better if they had been updated to begin with, and not after the fact. No, this is not all Bush's fault, but once again, it just goes to show you that he should worry about what is happening here in the US, and not what is good for his pocketbook. Period.

Try reading your former posts in this section! And YOU try getting your own points!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Try reading your former posts in this section! And YOU try getting your own points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

I don't have to read my former posts. I know what I said. Try explaining yourself instead of posting cryptic remarks. I refer back to specific statements when necessary. If you show me what you are referring to, I will respond. But I haven't a clue.

I did go back reread my previous answer to you. I still haven't a clue what you refer to. As for my not showing respect. As I said respect has to be earned. Dubya has not show himself worthy of my respect.

As for my girlfriend, I've been happily married for 32 years.

Our dear Heavenly Father, please plant the seeds of truth into the minds of the thinking impared. Amen

Mag, it seems like you have done your research already. So whay ask what you have already come to terms with? To see if others see and believe? it is still hard for folks to come to terms with the idea of illuminati, Icke theory and such. Im glad you brought this up but even if Bush isnt the "Antichrist" he sure is an evil, ignorant, self serving person that most can agree is not a good president but an ignorant one. And there will be those who adore him because they truly believe in his lies and have some form of hope.
Woe to those who live within the illusion and never question reality. For it is they who will breathe the smoke while their leaders point the mirrors.

Hypatia

What I don't understand is, I hear some Americans talking about respecting the president, respecting the government, etc. But how is criticizing the president's actions disrespect? Isn't it just a right as part of freedom of speech? If you threw a pie in the president's face as he was greeting people THAT would be disrespect (actually that happened to one of our prime ministers a few years back!). But when disagreeing with government policies is labeled "disrespect", that scares me. Do you want to live in a country where people are not allowed to disagree with the president??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by orange

What I don't understand is, I hear some Americans talking about respecting the president, respecting the government, etc. But how is criticizing the president's actions disrespect?

---

Perfect Chava!! Got stymied by the spread feature. But your whole comment here was absolutely perfect.

Originally Posted by orange
What I don't understand is, I hear some Americans talking about respecting the president, respecting the government, etc. But how is criticizing the president's actions disrespect?


I agree, Orange. What once again it goes back to Freedom of Speech, not criticism of the president.

Cgirl, I realize Bush hasn't made the best decisions, but then again, what president has in the last 20 years? New Orleans? It is funny how no one has blamed the Mayor and the Governor who in my opinion did a horrible job in the whole evacuation.

Although everyone does make valid points. I am not sure who should be believed and who I shouldn't. You have the liberal media and a conservative media. Everyone will tell their side and what they think is right. This is almost as bad a thread on religion. I don't think anyone can make an assessment on whether the right decisions are being made unless you are 1) in the government 2) real close to people who work in government. It is the same as where you work. The higher ups are making decisions that the lower end people are shaking their heads as to why things are being done this way. I am not saying this is all right, I am just saying that this is the way of politics. I think because it is Bush people are aware of the decisions that are being made.
magprob -- you mentioned the iluminata. Don't they control all the nations leaders anyway? I am not quite sure Bush is totally conforming to their demands. I know Bush Sr. didn't.

It was pretty funny how Osama was endorcing Kerry. Why? I think because Osama thought he could control Kerry better than Bush.

We need to get independent on oil. I heard awhile back the Senator from Alaska did a favor for 2 other Senators and set aside 19 million acres for wild life so later they could set aside 1 million for oil. Now those Sneators aren't in office anymore and we cannot get our oil drilled there. I remember Bush trying to get that pushed through but the other Senators wouldn't allow it.

Anyway, that is the end of my rant. I probably will only read the rest of the posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickj

2. If it is a person, then we are fairly sure of one thing: Christians will not identify him prior to his coming to world power.

---

Im jumping in really late and haven't read through the whole thread as of yet... but I wanted to comment on this.

The thing about this is that, in this day and age, do you really think that ANYONE could come CLOSE to world power, without everyone saying "ANTICHRIST, ANTICHRIST!!" I mean, I know that what the Bible tells us but how could someone rise so high without everyone seeing it coming, without ANYONE screaming "ANTICHRIST!"?

I must say this about Bush though. I look at him, even just a picture of him, and it gives me the creeps. Something about him just does that. He definitely does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. There is just something not right about that man. I don't think he is the "anti-christ" but I do think he is out for himself. Does this make him evil? You tell me?

EDIT: Jduke44, he gave me the creeps to, but just on his moral standings

Wow... now that I have read on, this really turned into a steaming political debate... how boring! I like the Anti-Christ discussion much better! Lol

Gosh I better stop posting things about the government, someone might bust me via the "Patriot ACT"... they might think I am a traitor. The fact is, I LOVE my country, wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I love my freedom, I just want those freedoms to remain protected, for me, my children, my grandchildren, etc. I am just afraid that they won't be much longer. But I am trying to think "good thoughts" for my son's sake. I just hope that I can raise him to love his country too, and not hate it because of all of the bad events taking place.

Some very thoguhtful comments, JD. But I do have some counterpoint.

No one is perfect, including presidents. They have all made bad or just unpopular decisions. But Bush's record is one of the worst. There have been so many mistakes and bad decisions.

As to Bin Laden endorsing Kerry, I have an alternative theory. Do you believe that Bin Laden's endorsement would induce any American to vote for him? So maybe Bin Laden endorsed Kerry because he was afraid of him, figuring that his endorsement would be the kiss of death.

While its true that the media is slanted, certain facts have been presented and I'm making my judgments not on what the media has said but on the facts that have been presented.

Well, at least y'all got your sense of humor back!

As A REBORN Christian I'm NOT going to worry about Armeggedon. No one with THIS FAITH concerns themselves with the end because WE will be caught up in the Rapture anyway.

Sometimes I do have to fake it for the sake of the younger ones here & there. So hopefully they don't see my post, BUT, Take a look @ Iran. Sen. John McCain stated last night on a program that Iran is developing their nuclear weapons with the sole interest in destroying Israel! I'd say the leaders (what is it they have, president or whoever) I'd say he or she could be your beast. Whatcha think?

Well, not many folks think that G.W. Bush is the Antichrist. I really don't either. I don't think he is a very good president and I don't think the American people come first with him. I agree with rickj, our superfearlessmoderator, do we really know what the Antichrist is? Anyway, I see this thread going in circles and I need to rest my brain. I'm going back to the home and garden section! Goodnight and Goodluck!:p

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —


From the: IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

This statement is valid today.

If Bush was doing something which the American people disagreed strongly with, why did they reelect him for a second term?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starman

If Bush was doing something which the American people disagreed strongly with, why did they reelect him for a second term?

---

That's a very good question. Its got no cut and dried answer. But there are several factors involved.

One reason is the American party system. Many people (on both sides) vote blindly along party lines. Another reason was the lack of a strong opposition candidate. Bush was also still riding the 9/11 tragedy. He gained a lot of favor (for reasons not totally logical) over his handling of the attacks. His first term was not as obviously bad as his second term has been. A lot of the problems and mistakes are first coming out now. Since he gained a clear victory the last time, and since he's a lame duck, he's free to do what his handlers want him to do. So the excesses have now become more obvious. These are just some of the factors.