I really think God knows how dumb us humans are and tells us only what our little minds can grasp.Do you tell a five year old what you were doing to his mommy last night?HE understans wrestling with her, not procreating!Do you not believe in carbon14 testing,How come nobody has seen any of those dinosaur fossils walking around in the flesh?Our limited perceptions only allow us a very narrow view of the reality of the world we live in.Question-If Adam and Eve where first and they had kids who did their kids mate with to produce mankind?You can probably tell I don't hold the bible or any other book to be of any devine origin.:cool:

What about dinosaur fossils?

Oops you already said that talaniman, sorry! :p

Also, I'm interested in what creationists think about DNA? Like for example, how do you explain that chimpanzees and humans share over 97% of the same DNA, if we don't have a common ancestor?

Science and Bible just don't mix and I didn't have strong faith to explain away scientific facts vs what Bible says. But that didn't stop me from liking the song below in late 1970s. :)

By Bob Dylan...

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal that liked to growl,
Big furry paws and he liked to howl,
Great big furry back and furry hair.
"ah, think i'll call it a bear."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal up on a hill
Chewing up so much grass until she was filled.
He saw milk comin' out but he didn't know how.
"ah, think i'll call it a cow."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal that liked to snort,
Horns on his head and they weren't too short.
It looked like there wasn't nothing that he couldn't pull.
"ah, think i'll call it a bull."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal leavin' a muddy trail,
Real dirty face and a curly tail.
He wasn't too small and he wasn't too big.
"ah, think i'll call it a pig."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

Next animal that he did meet
Had wool on his back and hooves on his feet,
Eating grass on a mountainside so steep.
"ah, think i'll call it a sheep."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal as smooth as glass
Slithering his way through the grass.
Saw him disappear by a tree near a lake.. .

That was from Slow Train Coming, wasn't it?

Yes, for a time, Bob Dylan had an interest in telling the world about his newfound Christian faith... but I wonder; is he is still an adherant?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I really think God knows how dumb us humans are and tells us only what our little minds can grasp.Do you tell a five year old what you were doing to his mommy last night?HE understans wrestling with her, not procreating!Do you not believe in carbon14 testing,How come nobody has seen any of those dinosaur fossils walking around in the flesh?Our limited perceptions only allow us a very narrow view of the reality of the world we live in.Question-If Adam and Eve where first and they had kids who did their kids mate with to produce mankind?You can probably tell I don't hold the bible or any other book to be of any devine origin.:cool:

---

The same God who made our minds and created language has used plain language to explain what He has done. He did so in simple to understand language so that even a child could understand it. That is what one might expect of a loving God.

Do I believe in carbon 14 testing? No, not really. There are actually hundreds of methods used for dating materials. Carbon dating is only one of them and all of them are based on presuppositions. Many of the methods produce dates which coincide with the biblical account. Carbon 14 is a dating system that cannot date anything to billions of years. It is not the method that can do that. Potassium Argon is a method for dating to millions of years, but, did you know that if a volcano errupts in Hiawaii and you test the lava using Potassium Argon Dating the lava would test billions of years old even though it was only a day old?

No one today has seen large dinosaurs because they are extinct. In the time of Job people did see them and the book of Job mentions two of them.

Yes, Adam and Eve had many children (Gen. 5:4), and yes they married each other and continued to produce. God did not tell man that he could not marry a close relative until after the flood.

The bible is the Word of God and that is why it fits the facts we see around us while the molecules to man evolutionary theory does not.

What would you believe in if there was no bible?Do you believe in science?:cool:After the flood who did Noahs children mate with? :rolleyes: Who did their children mate with?:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phildebenham

Potassium Argon is a method for dating to millions of years, but, did you know that if a volcano errupts in Hiawaii and you test the lava using Potassium Argon Dating the lava would test billions of years old even though it was only a day old?

---

Actually that makes a lot of sense since lava is nothing but melted rock that has moved form below the earth to above the mantle. Nothing is a day old because nothing was created, simply moved from point A to point B.

But why is it that you do not 'believe' in carbon14 dating? It really isn't a matter of belief since you could replicate the scientific experiments that show its properties... over and over again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

That was from Slow Train Coming, wasn't it?

Yes, for a time, Bob Dylan had an interest in telling the world about his newfound Christian faith...but I wonder; is he is still an adherant?

---

I think he went back to being Jewish...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Actually that makes a lot of sense since lava is nothing but melted rock that has moved form below the earth to above the mantle. Nothing is a day old because nothing was created, simply moved from point A to point B.

---

Yes exactly... rocks, water, any elements you can think of... are as old as the earth, in no matter what form / state they appear. Fossils aren't rocks though. They're remains... and so when you use cadmium dating (or carbon) you are comparing the age of the fossil remains to the age of the rocks. And as NeedKarma says, it's not a matter of belief. It's been scientifically proven over and over again.

Again, I go back to my point of, why does it matter? Why can't people just believe in God and evolution at the same time? Like that evolution was engineered by God? No one is answering my question about that...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

That was from Slow Train Coming, wasn't it?

---

Yes, it was.

"Slow Train Coming" is an album by Bob Dylan? I should try to look for it and listen to it as Bob Dylan was my mother's favorite singer. I don't think I've ever heard it!

Yes. It was music written with a Christian message.

Music-wise, I thought it only fair to middlin, but the message was great.

Who is bob dylan?

Oh my, you make me feel old! :p

Bob Dylan was one of the major music movers and shakers of the 60s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orange

Why can't people just believe in God and evolution at the same time? Like that evolution was engineered by God?

---

That would contradict Bible and it would be too much for Christians to accept?

What Christians would need is a new Bible (Newer Testement) which can explain the relationship between science and their religion in modern way. If bunch of faithfuls can get together 1700 years ago and draft a Bible (doing quite a bit of editing), why not come up with another book to complement the Bible? As is, it is hard to accept a book written a few thousand years ago FOR the people who lived then to make sense for many of us now. Anyway, my 2 cents and a food for thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

Oh my, you make me feel old! :p

---

You and me both. :o

For others, Bob Dylan had bunch of "Christian Rock" albums at the time. IMO, Slow Train is the best one and actually has a song that climbed to #1 or #2 on the pop chart. The song was "Gotta serve somebody." The entire album is beautifully recorded. Even if you are not a Christian, it's worth a listen.

Is he in anyway related to matt dylan? You guys shouldn't feel old. You should feel lucky that you lived in such an awesome era.

My whole point is that the God I understand created all there is using His methods that I know nothing about, I just believe.As I have seen enough evidence to support the theory that the Earth is millions of years old and has supported many different types of life,and this does not contradict any of my beliefs.God and evolution is not a conflict as it makes perfect sense both from a religious stand point and a scientific one.What doesn't make sense is the Genesis story of Adam and Eve or the notion that Noah repopulated the earth after the great flood, but my mind is open to new information or facts:cool:

I believe in God and evolution at the same time... to a point, but not all of it (formal Evolution).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crankiebabie

Is he in anyway related to matt dylan?

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I don't think so (which means I am right until someone comes up with a definitive proof that I was wrong. ;) ).

BTW, Bob Dylan's real last name is Zimmermen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rkim291968

I don't think so (which means I am right until someone comes up with a definitive proof that I was wrong. ;) ).

BTW, Bob Dylan's real last name is Zimmermen.

---

Bob Dylan's given name was indeed Robert Zimmerman. He came to the Lord after counseling with 2 of the then Valley Vineyard Christian Fellowship pastors (one of whom is a very close friend of mine.) I have personally not seen Bob since those Vineyard days, but Chuck Girard says that he believes Bob's faith is still real and fully expects to see him in heaven.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Actually that makes a lot of sense since lava is nothing but melted rock that has moved form below the earth to above the mantle. Nothing is a day old because nothing was created, simply moved from point A to point B.

But why is it that you do not 'believe' in carbon14 dating? It really isn't a matter of belief since you could replicate the scientific experiments that show its properties... over and over again.

---

Lava is the formation of new rock, but it does not date as new rock using Potassium Argon dating. It date incorrectly.

Carbon Dating, like all dating systems, is based on presuppositions which may or may not be correct. As I have said earlier, there are literally hundreds of dating methods used by science, and they don't always agree. That alone poses a problem. Did you know that 90% of the dates given by all of these methods produce dates younger than evolution requires? You are asking me to accept the 10% that support the evolutionist theory of millions of years and ignore the 90% that do not. You accept it because you have been taught to accept it, not because it is true. When Carbon Dating was introduced and old things were dated a great furor ensued and a Pulitzer Prize awarded. However, when it was discovered that the dating system was in error, the system was corrected and things redated by the corrected method. Suddenly the dates came back much younger and fit within the creation model. No furor ensued. Instead new methods began to be used. Again, Carbon Dating is not the method that is used to dated things old enough to support evolution, so whether I believe in the total accuracy of the method or not is moot to our discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rkim291968

Science and Bible just don't mix and I didn't have strong faith to explain away scientific facts vs what Bible says. But that didn't stop me from liking the song below in late 1970s. :)

By Bob Dylan ...

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal that liked to growl,
Big furry paws and he liked to howl,
Great big furry back and furry hair.
"ah, think i'll call it a bear."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal up on a hill
Chewing up so much grass until she was filled.
He saw milk comin' out but he didn't know how.
"ah, think i'll call it a cow."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal that liked to snort,
Horns on his head and they weren't too short.
It looked like there wasn't nothin' that he couldn't pull.
"ah, think i'll call it a bull."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal leavin' a muddy trail,
Real dirty face and a curly tail.
He wasn't too small and he wasn't too big.
"ah, think i'll call it a pig."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

Next animal that he did meet
Had wool on his back and hooves on his feet,
Eating grass on a mountainside so steep.
"ah, think i'll call it a sheep."

Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, in the beginning.
Man gave names to all the animals
In the beginning, long time ago.

He saw an animal as smooth as glass
Slithering his way through the grass.
Saw him disappear by a tree near a lake . . .

---

Show me one scientific fact that contridicts the bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phildebenham

Chuck Girard says that he believes Bob's faith is still real and fully expects to see him in heaven.

---

Isn't it incredibly arrogant for someone to say that they know whether someone is going to heaven? It's a positive thought in this case, but it would be just as easy for Chuck Girard to say he thought Bob Dylan was going to hell. Like, I'm not God and therefore I can't know what's in a person's heart or judge whether they're "saved".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talaniman

What would you believe in if there was no bible?Do you believe in science?:cool:After the flood who did Noahs children mate with? :rolleyes: Who did their children mate with?:cool:

---

There is a bible so the question is moot.

I do believe in science. Science is the study of what we see. Creationist believe in natural selection. We believe in mutation. We believe because it is what we see. Where Evolutionist and Creationist part isn't with science, it is with understanding how the things we see came to be when we weren't there to study them! That is not science. Actually both evolution and creationism contain parts of science and religion. Again, we agree on what we observe... and that is science.

After the flood Ham, Shem, and Nepheth's children married and had children. Earlier I said that close relation marriage was not prohibited until after the flood. I misspoke. It was actually prohibited at the time of Moses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orange

Isn't it incredibly arrogant for someone to say that they know whether or not someone is going to heaven? It's a positive thought in this case, but it would be just as easy for Chuck Girard to say he thought Bob Dylan was going to hell. Like, I'm not God and therefore I can't know what's in a person's heart or judge whether or not they're "saved".

---

No, it's not arrogant. The bible says "you shall know them by their fruits." Based upon that, Chuck has formed an opinion.

But the Bible also says "judge not, lest ye be judged". Anyway I guess it's pointless to argue about it... I think it's wrong to put that kind of judgement on a person, but lots of evangelical Christians seem to think it's perfectly fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orange

But the Bible also says "judge not, lest ye be judged". Anyways I guess it's pointless to argue about it... I think it's wrong to put that kind of judgement on a person, but lots of evangelical Christians seem to think it's perfectly fine.

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There is no judgement involved.

Phil, may I ask what your original intent was for this thread? I am not trying to judge or criticize but just trying to get a sense ofthis thread. There are people who might have an honest question about faith in God but are afraid to post because this seemed to have turned into a debate as to whether God can be proved or not. God can be proved by ones who either already believe or who are ready to believe. The bible and God is foolishness to those who do not believe (that is a paraphrase right from the bible). Before anyone jumps on that it means exactly what is going on here in this thread is that the ones who don't accept think the biblle is foolishness.

If your main intent was to debate these matters then I apologize for sticking my nose in this. I would like to have one christian thread started that doesn't get bombarded with debate. Thank you. Carry on as you were. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orange

Isn't it incredibly arrogant for someone to say that they know whether or not someone is going to heaven? It's a positive thought in this case, but it would be just as easy for Chuck Girard to say he thought Bob Dylan was going to hell. Like, I'm not God and therefore I can't know what's in a person's heart or judge whether or not they're "saved".

---

Sometimes we do get a sense of how someone is by their fruits as Phil said. Sometimes Christians do judge and it is not right, we are only human. I wouldn't necessarily tell someone they are going to hell because as you said, we are not God and don't know their hearts. I don't think it is necessarily wrong to state whether you think someone is going to Heaven because you are basing it on their actions. Anyway, like you said, it doesn't matter. I wanted to put my 2 cents in for what it is worth.

Jduke, your response about the judgement thing makes sense to me... and yeah I don't think Christians are judgemental in general, but I do worry when I hear someone (of any faith) saying they know the fate of another. I mean that could get dangerous... in some religious sects it's considered okay to kill someone who you think is not of the right faith! Even if you think a person is doomed to hell or whatever, you can still be kind to them and try to help them, instead of saying "you're going to hell" or "you're full of demons" or something.

And yeah I agree this thread has a weird vibe to it. I'm not sure what the purpose is either. That's why I asked at the beginning why you were supposed to say if you were a Christian or not. I was wondering that if I admitted that I wasn't, would I get judged for that... and I do kind of feel judged here.

Anyway as always I'm just sincerely searching, not trying to cause trouble or anything. I really appreciated your explanation. Thanks.

Quote:

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but I do worry when I hear someone (of any faith) saying they know the fate of another. I mean that could get dangerous... in some religious sects it's considered okay to kill someone who you think is not of the right faith! Even if you think a person is doomed to hell or whatever, you can still be kind to them and try to help them, instead of saying "you're going to hell" or "you're full of demons" or something.

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I am careful of this myself, however, if I know the character of the person saying this to another, I could better discern as to whether he might be given a direct revalation from God (Yes this does happen and nothing to be scared of). However, the approach to this person would be the most critical point as to whether that person understands what the man of faith is saying.

Quote:

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And yeah I agree this thread has a weird vibe to it. I'm not sure what the purpose is either. That's why I asked at the beginning why you were supposed to say if you were a Christian or not. I was wondering that if I admitted that I wasn't, would I get judged for that... and I do kind of feel judged here.

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No need ot wierded out by Phil's question, I would have done the same thing. My intent was not to question why Phil had asked whether you are a Christian or not. I agree with why he asked and I am glad (and I am sure he is also) you made him clarify that. I am concerned about all the other garbage overwhelming the actual intent of the thread. I don't mind threads being sidetracked but every thread on religion ends up with the same them over and over about the creation vs. evolution.

BTW, if you have honest questions about this whole thing, you can always pm me. I am usually on m-f anywhere from 3-10:30. I try to answer questions w/o judging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phildebenham

You accept it because you have been taught to accept it, not because it is true.

---

Couldn't one say the same of the bible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jduke44

I am concerned about all the other garbage overwhelming the actual intent of the thread. I don't mind threads being sidetracked but every thread on religion ends up with the same them over and over about the creation vs. evolution.

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Yeah I was going to say that too, but I was scared to haha. So thanks for saying it for me. You're right, I've not read any revelations about creation / evolution in this thread, on either side of the argument... more just "I'm right", "No I'm right", "NO I AM!!!", etc. Everything is just being rehashed. And I really would like to hear something new and intelligent. That would make this thread really worthwhile.

Quote:

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BTW, if you have honest questions about this whole thing, you can always pm me. I am usually on m-f anywhere from 3-10:30. I try to answer questions w/o judging.

---

Thanks a lot, maybe I will sometime! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Couldn't one say the same of the bible?

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Not totally. If one doesn't go to a Sunday school class or anything like that. Everyone has to go to school so this theory is beat into every kids mind and they have no way of knowing if it si the truth or not unless they ask a parent -- who has had it beat into their minds. They even have to teach it in private schools but differenced is there, the teacher can give the biblical view also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jduke44

Not totally. If one doesn't go to a Sunday school class or anything like that. Everyone has to go to school so this theory is beat into every kids mind and they have no way of knowing if it si the truth or not unless they ask a parent -- who has had it beat into their minds. They even have to teach it in private schools but differenced is there, the teacher can give the biblical view also.

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You don't have catholic schools where you are? Anyway the argument goes both ways except that if little Johnny wasn't sure about the results of carbon dating he could study it and conduct experiments that can be reproduced. The bible has to be taken on faith.

I would like to say first that anything I say is not a personally attack on you (if it seems like an attack that is), because I respect you and all the posters on this thread.

Yes, they have catholic schools in my area. Matter of fact, I grew up going to one. That is not where my faith originated. I don't consider myself a catholic. I believe in God because it made sense to me. Why, I don't know, I cannot PROVE this. I tell people about my faith, if it makes sense to them they may accept it. If it doesn't, I go on my merry way. I am not brainwashed into thinking this way, no one beat me over the head with it, my spirit jumped alive when it was presented to me. True Christinity is hard to explain sometimes in our human minds. This is why we hve the bible to explain these things.

I understand your point about being able to prove carbon dating. As I said in my previous post, faith is without seeing. For those who don't need to see proof this faith is for them. For those who need proof, may never believe this.

Jesus said to Thomas "you believe with seeing, blessed are those who believe without seeing".



Disclaimer: views expressed in my post may or may not expressed those that believe the same things as I do

Fair enough, I respect the way you express yourself.
Have a great day!

I am a Christian.

1. I believe in evolution to a point. I do not believe that people came from monkeys that were previously tadpoles, however I do believe that over time our bodies do adapt to it's surronding and the mind become adjusted to the society in which one is ontinuously surrounded by. In that sense, I do believe in evolution.

2. The Gap Theory... not quite sure I know exactly what that is.

3. As far as the time of creation... Time is a man made concept that is used to keep things in a certain order. So as far as creation being completed in a set 24 hour period... I do think it is possible however, but then again it could very well have taken more or even less time then that.

I think you will understand what I am just by my username, also by the way I answer this question.

First - God created all things great and small.

Second - Never heard of the gap theory, although it must just be a theory.

Third - Gods time and our time, are definatley different and many try to explain the difference, as the 1 day is like 1,000 for God. For all we know God exists outside of time.

What do you think?