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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Talaniman, I don't think you will ever get it. You can't keep accomodating culture. The cause of many divorces is because men and women are not fulfilling their proper role in society.

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I thought I asked some very valid questions to which I have not received answers as I would like to get it, if you can explain it. And the thing about not fulfilling proper roles being the main cause of divorce, I agree some what because I know for a fact no one wants to be told what to do with their life or be confined to some one else's idea of what is proper. I agree with NeedKarma when he says that we must change with the world as it changes. Your rigid thinking is okay in your house, but not in mine!

Obvously post #17 had some real good questions that one poster was unable to give answers to. For someone who has all the answers just came up with this reply ''Talaniman, I don't think you will ever get it. You can't keep accommodating culture. The cause of many divorces is because men and women are not fulfilling their proper role in society.'' Why could this poster not answer these questions?

What roles do you assign to single parent households with the divorce rate at 50%?
Can a man not be a helpmate or a nurturer?
Can a woman be a provider or spiritual leader?
If a woman has skills and talent and wanted to use them shouldn't a man support her?
What happens to these roles when the children leave the nest?
What happens to these roles when the man dies, or is disabled?
What happens to these roles if there are no children?
Should the woman's opinion be considered when these roles are defined ?
What should a man do if a woman wants to be more than just a helpmate?
In today's world what is it the man is defending his family against?

Maybe if they are repeated, the poster will relook at the questions really look through them and actually give an answer to them.

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Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Role of men:
. Spiritual leader
. Provider
. Defender

Moses, Daniel, Caleb, Joshua, King David, and, of course, Jesus are good examples for men.

Role of women:
. Helpmates
. Nurturers

Sarah, Naomi, Ruth, Esther, and Proverbs 31 are good examples for women.

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This is a very traditional view, but you can't honestly believe these roles are exclusive?

Txgreasemonkey -

Your question IS Bible-based. And any attempts to answer it, that is not Biblical is not answering the question!

I had a daily devotional a few weeks. Ago from my pastor's liveprayer.com. I didn't store it, but I remember the gist of it.


God didn't want for a woman, specifically a married woman with children to be the breadwinner in the family. However, there were MANY exceptions where it was proper for the woman to work(outside of the home)

A single woman. A divorced or widowed woman and an extremely talented woman. These exceptions allow leeway in our present society for women to fulfill their needs to earn money even if they are married... and it is not outside of God's plan.

So I guess (even personally) the key words are " the main breadwinner" This way hopefully babies do not have to be in a nursery when they are newborns. We were able to wait till they were 18 months old each to put them in the general care of nurseries & babysitters. (had problems then too, but mostly minor ones.)

There you have it - my wife is extremely talented so it's OK for her to work. Whew, that's a load off my mind.

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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

txgreasemonkey -

Your question IS Bible-based. And any attempts to answer it, that is not Biblical is not answering the question!

I had a daily devotional a few wks. ago from my pastor's liveprayer.com. I didn't store it, but I remember the gist of it.


God didn't want for a woman, specifically a married woman with children to be the breadwinner in the family. However, there were MANY exceptions where it was proper for the woman to work(outside of the home)

A single woman. A divorced or widowed woman and an extremely talented woman. These exceptions allow leeway in our present society for women to fulfill their needs to earn money even if they are married...and it is not outside of God's plan.

So I guess (even personally) the key words are " the main breadwinner" This way hopefully babies do not have to be in a nursery when they are newborns. We were able to wait till they were 18 months old each to put them in the general care of nurseries & babysitters. (had problems then too, but mostly minor ones.)

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I appreciate your answer 31pumpkin, and if I may ask does GODS plan prevent a man from being a nurturer, or a helpmate to his working wife?

Tal, I know you didn't ask me but I would like to answer your question anyway. Yes I think some men can be nurturers but no I don't think men were meant to be. I would like to add that not every woman is necessarily a nurturer either.

As far as the question at hand, I do think that men and women have specific roles that God had set up for them. Like everything else, I think there are exceptions to this rule. I think if it is possible women should stay at home with their children. I don't like the term "times have changed" because it lends to a lot of excuses but I do agree that between society and the price of things in genera, it may not always be practical. My wife and I chose to have her stay home but that was a personal one. We have contemplated many times of her working part time but figured it wouldn't be the right time.

I am not quite sure why the divorce rate is the way it is but there are many reasons that I don't think anyone can put their finger on just one. If there is one reason it is probably pride between the partners of not wanting to give up their rights. I will leave it at that.

By jduke44

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Tal, I know you didn't ask me but I would like to answer your question anyway. Yes I think some men can be nurturers but no I don't think men were meant to be. I would like to add that not every woman is necessarily a nurturer either.

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I agree with you there. We may have to be though for the sake of a healthy family.

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As far as the question at hand, I do think that men and women have specific roles that God had set up for them. Like everything else, I think there are exceptions to this rule. I think if it is possible women should stay at home with their children. I don't like the term "times have changed" because it lends to a lot of excuses but I do agree that between society and the price of things in genera, it may not always be practical. My wife and I chose to have her stay home but that was a personal one. We have contemplated many times of her working part time but figured it wouldn't be the right time

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Again I agree as it is a personal choice between husband and wife.

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I am not quite sure why the divorce rate is the way it is but there are many reasons that I don't think anyone can put their finger on just one. If there is one reason it is probably pride between the partners of not wanting to give up their rights. I will leave it at that

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Now this maybe another thread!!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I appreciate your answer 31pumpkin, and if I may ask does GODS plan prevent a man from being a nurturer, or a helpmate to his working wife?

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Nurturer? Aren't men nurturers when they raise a family?

Or a helpmate to his working wife? It doesn't say a very talented working wife is supposed to have a "bum" for a husband either. It isn't like "anything goes".

I think the more the maturity of Christian ( and maybe other religions as well)
The closer they follow God's principles

Well. That's all I know. :D cya

The problem stems from a misundersatanding about what the Bible tell us about headship. Some women understand it as a license for a husband to abuse his wife so they consider it unjust. But a careful study of this principle of headship shows that it demands respect for the wife and a loving of her as one's own body.

Ephesians 5:28
So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

Social factors have also contributed viewing of man's role as head of the household as negative. The article at the site below clarifies issues in relation to this.


Women's Liberation and the Bible
http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1975v10n3.htm

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Originally Posted by Starman

The problem stems from a misundersatanding about what the Bible tell us about headship. Some women understand it as a license for a husband to abuse his wife so they consider it unjust. But a careful study of this principle of headship shows that it demands respect for the wife and a loving of her as one's own body.

Ephesians 5:28
So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

Social factors have also contributed viewing of man's role as head of the household as negative. The article at the site below clarifies issues in relation to this.


Women's Liberation and the Bible
http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1975v10n3.htm

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I don't always agree with scripture but what you have presented is so right on. Not only has it survived the test of time but is a statement that we as men need to look at and define ourselves by it!

I do wish that the religious believers in our little community -- instead of lecturing us - would get on the politicians and law makers and tell them the errors of their ways.

If they made businesses pay a (family) living wage to the main breadwinner, the other partner would then have the choice of being a house-wife/husband during the childrens' formative years, a role which has been under-rated and undermined for far too long...

... and may your god go with you.

That is an excellent idea Jonegy. That is the only way things would change. By people standing up for the change and going to government and pressuring government for the change. That is the only way things will change if everybody that knows how important a parent staying home is. People have to fight for that. Yes, Christians do need to be more assertive.

Joe

I agree whole-heartedly that children should have their parents care for them. In my opinion what has happened has been like a domino effect. For one thing to work, the step in front of it has to be there.

1.
-a couple should be married (committed to eachother)
-realize that this is long-term and divorce is not an option (with the exception of abuse)
-have eachothers' best interests in mind always
-they should be in the same place in their lives, have similar goals, ideas, etc. and they need to be faithful to each other
-don't give up so easy, no marriage is perfect, the honeymoon is short and takes a lot of work
-we need to work together. If you don't have each other, who do you have?

2.
-when you have a family, realize that this is a job
-kids are work
-it's not about having a baby, it's about having a person
-know what your priorities are and have them straight.
-if you have this the rest is easy

I think it's important to put people first. I know a lot of people want things, and forget that is not what is important. We don't get to take that with us. We get our mind and our heart.

I don't know about women not working. I think that if your family needs more income then so be it. That is, money to meet your needs, not your wants. YOU have to answer for the way you have lived, no one else!


About this thing with the government offering some sort of assistance. I have the perfect idea. Maybe other countries have this, but I know they don't in Canada. The government should offer income-splitting. If my husband makes $65,000 a year he will pay more tax than if we both made $32,500. Now tell me that's not ridiculous. Families with one income should be able to split their income so they could keep more of the money they earn. I worked it out and if my husband and I were able to split, he would have got almost $10,000 more back on his income tax. WOW!

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the role God intended for them to perform

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Did God intend men to play around with virgins and leave them... Did God intend on men to cheat and abuse?

Did God intend for society to make it impossible to stay at home with a 'family' unit untact so that the children can be fed and nurtured??

Don't put is all on us women, please. We did not make life what it is all on our own!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_9_18.gif
In England, in the 1600, women were rated and treated on the same level as aminals, with no rights - and not even allowed to read the Bible - reading was a man's thing. Women, who at that time were caught reading were burned at the stake. I don't think we can afford to go back to those 'good ole days'.

I agree that it should not be left up to any one person in the relationship. Each member has to give their 100%. I don't think it should be a situation where if you give, then I will give. We have to pull our own, there is no score, life is not fair. Be the best you can be and hopefully your partner will be too. Example: My husband has not changed a diaper in 10 years. We have had 4 children in that time. Some people have a very hard time with that. I do not. Vice versa, I hate making the top bunk bed up, so he takes that so I don't have to. I don't know if it evens out and I don't care. We help each other and what we help each other with changes depending on our needs. I notice people keeping score and people who count how much each spends. I do not agree with this. I know a lot of women who work so they don't have to ask to spend money. "His pay cheque, my pay cheque". Instead of "we are partners, everything is ours."

For what we are talking about to work you have to have spouses willing to support one another at home and at work.

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Originally Posted by Chery

Did God intend men to play around with virgins and leave them... Did God intend on men to cheat and abuse?

Did God intend for society to make it impossible to stay at home with a 'family' unit untact so that the children can be fed and nurtured???

Don't put is all on us women, please. We did not make life what it is all on our own!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_9_18.gif
In England, in the 1600, women were rated and treated on the same level as aminals, with no rights - and not even allowed to read the Bible - reading was a man's thing. Women, who at that time were caught reading were burned at the stake. I don't think we can afford to go back to those 'good ole days'.

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Chery, I agree we should not go back to a time when women where subjugated by their so-called husbands to serve them. The fact is that women are the heads of a lot of single households especially here in America. Not only do they work but have to raise children on their own. So if females MUST define their own roles I suggest that the Men who are offended by this do-something about it and stop putting women down for working outside the home and taking jobs that men should be doing! This argument fails to be valid given the female has been the one keeping family together and raising the kids, in many cases ALONE!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Chery, I agree we should not go back to a time when women where subjugated by their so-called husbands to serve them. The fact is that women are the heads of a lot of single households especially here in America. Not only do they work but have to raise children on their own. So if females MUST define their own roles I suggest that the Men who are offended by this do-something about it and stop putting women down for working outside the home and taking jobs that men should be doing! This argument fails to be valid given the female has been the one keeping family together and raising the kids, in many cases ALONE!!

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Exactly! Well done!
And its not only in America, its just the same in Europe.
Its everywhere.
Culture is changing, people are changing.

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Originally Posted by jduke44

Yes I think some men can be nurturers but no I don't think men were meant to be. I would like to add that not every woman is necessarily a nurturer either.

As far as the question at hand, I do think that men and women have specific roles that God had set up for them. Like everything else, I think there are exceptions to this rule. I think if it is possible women should stay at home wih their children.

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I agree that men can be nurturers and women aren't necessarily a nurturer. However if you look at the insticts in men and women (overall), you would see that they do fit into these roles.

I do think this is what God wanted for us. I think it helps to bring order into our household and less chaos... as long as there is support and both parties are giving 100%.

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Originally Posted by aqua@home

I agree that men can be nurturers and women aren't necessarily a nurturer. However if you look at the insticts in men and women (overall), you would see that they do fit into these roles.

I do think this is what God wanted for us. I think it helps to bring order into our household and less chaos...as long as there is support and both parties are giving 100%.

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I agree on both points but couldn't comment.