The Bible can never be used to support that it is the only authority for Christians. It's just not there. It is over and over again affirmed to be Sacred and we today believe it to be God inspired and without error - but not the sole authority for God's people.

If "Bible Only", then "Nothing Christ or his Apostles said or did is important unless it is recorded in the books of the NT"

Christ founded a Teaching Church. The earliest teachers of His Church wrote very important things that the Church later "officially" deemed worthy of adding to Scripture.

If writings that Christians were to use as their only authority was the goal, then why didn't Christ write? Any why didn't he command his disciples to write? And why didn't the Apostles command their disciples to write?

If "Bible Only", then the Christians of the first 3 centuries were just... what, lost? Winging it? Of course they weren't. They were doing just like the Christians of the Apostles age did it. They were relying on the designated leaders of Christ's Church to teach, feed and correct them.

By adhering to Sola Scripture, Christians reject or ignore the richness of the history of our faith; the early years of our Church.

We have the writings of dozens of Church leaders from the 1st to 4th Century... and we don't find Sola Scriptura.

The origin of Sola Scriptura is about 1500 years after Christ. Was the Church lost until this point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Since the word of God says that The Church is" the pillar and foundation of the truth" (NIV) The Church also is an authority on what is the truth.

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Hmm. "An authority" is not the same as "equal or greater authority." Perhaps I don't understand your position clearly. Is it your position that The Church (which I assume means the Catholic Church) has the authority to promote a teaching that is not supported by scripture?

How about this: what if another church claims the same authority and starts to teach something contrary to what your church teaches? How do we decide which teachings (and which church) are acceptable to God?

This dangerous line of thought is foretold in the scriptures at 2 Tim 4:3-4:

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (NIV)

2 Tim 3:16 and John 17:17 tell us the source of "sound doctrine." I accept what Jesus and Paul said in this matter. The Bible must be the highest authority.

Chris

Seeing that SS is not held to by the writers of the Bible, nor the Church in general for so many centuries, limiting the teachings of the Christian faith to the words of the Bible just does not jive.

Sola Scriptura was not a practice that either Christ or His Apostles, or their disciples taught.

It is a doctrine of man.

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)

"You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:1-2).

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

"‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12).

Where is Sola Scriptura?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

The Bible can never be used to support that it is the only authority for Christians. It's just not there.

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What authority can there be for the Christian congregation if not the inspired words of the God whom they profess to obey and worship?

I want to be clear on your position. Answer this question, please: if the teachings of a church conflict with the Bible, are we to follow the church or the Bible?

Chris

1. The authority of the Church is affirmed by Christ himself - i.e.. Gods words.

MT 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter,[Rock] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

"I will build my Church"

Not "I will write my book" or "I will give you more Scripture"

2. Your 2nd question is a non-issue. We (Catholic Christians) affirm that Scripture is God Inspired and without error. No teaching of our Faith can or does contradict Scripture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

The authority of the Church is affirmed by Christ himself - i.e.. Gods words.

MT 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter,[Rock] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

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To my mind, such a position is a logical fallacy known as "Special Pleading." It appeals to scriptural authority in some cases (ie, to establish the authority of the Church), but denies it in others (ie, to establish the teachings of the Church). What if someone comes along and uses your earlier argument against you, saying, "Jesus never said to write down MT 16:18, so it has no authority--and therefore you have no authority"? Now you must start deciding which passages are authoritative and which are not. Quite a slippery slope...

Surely we cannot pick and choose like that. Scriptural authority is all or nothing. I firmly believe it is "all".

Quote:

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We (Catholic Christians) affirm that Scripture is God Inspired and without error. No teaching of our Faith can or does contradict Scripture.

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Thanks for stating your position clearly. I absolutely agree with the former and absolutely disagree with the latter, but clearly your mind is made up and I respect your right to hold to your beliefs.

Anyway, if you and I cannot appeal to the scriptures as the final authority, there is no basis on which to agree or reason. All that remains is arguing over opinion and I'm not interested in that!

Final thought--give prayerful consideration to the principle found in these Bible texts:

Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the LORD. -- Lamentations 3:40

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? -- 2 Corinthians 13:5

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. -- 1 John 4:1

Test everything. Hold on to the good. -- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Chris

You say my argument
"appeals to scriptural authority in some cases but denies it in others"

This is incorrect. Anything spoken of in scripture is infallible. In other words, I do not deny the authority of scripture in any case.

I do not know the formal names for fallacious or false arguments, but I think there is something very wrong about saying
"Even though "the Bible is the sole authority" is not taught in the Bible - and was not taught by members of the Church until many hundreds of years after the founding of Christianity - it is none-the-less a valid Christian Doctrine".

While the last 4 citations you quote are certainly good and without error, none of them defend Sola Scriptura.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree on the point of Sola Scriptura.

And while we can agree that Scripture is without error, we will have to disagree as to whom to rely on for interpretation of them. I will rely on the Church that Christ built and Sola Scriptura adherants will rely on either themselves or leaders of sects.

Rick's argument makes sense and has church history back it up.
Even the Bible mentions that not all the Jesus said and did are recorded therein.
But the Apostles and disciples Jesus taught did know and that is why the writings of the early Church Fathers are so important.
Chrisl's argument does not make sense because it ignores that and the fact that Jesus gave His authority to His Church to carry on His work.
That is why He called it His bride and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)

Please; am I alone in thinking that Hope throws gasoline onto the fire and then skedaddles?

Why does she not revisit her questions?

Is she one of them darned argent prevaricators?

MORGANITE

:eek:

She's just looking for a place to preach and ask rhetorical questions.

I got tired of seeing them, and finally jumped in - and look where it got me :p

Peace and Blessings to all,

Have a nice weekend everyone!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Is she one of them darned argent prevaricators?

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'agent provocateur' - it's French.

I can't believe you fell into that whole.

Best rearguards.

MORGANITE

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morganite

I can't believe you fell into that whole.

Best rearguards.

MORGANITE

:)

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Stay in School. Drink the koolaid your priest tells you to drink. And yes, he only fondles you because God told him to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Stay in School. Drink the koolaid your priest tells you to drink. And yes, he only fondles you because God told him to.

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This is ridiculous. I can't believe anyone would post this.
fredg

Hi,
Jesus is the Son of God.
John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son...."

Best wishes,
fredg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

This is ridiculous. I can't believe anyone would post this.
fredg

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http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...p-report_x.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...525/cover.html
http://www.natcath.com/crisis/010888.htm

Freud had a word for people who jumped to conclusions that were based on too little information. I can't remember what it was.

A little well intended correction:

I am not in school
I do not drink Kool-ade
I do not have a priest
Anyone who fondles me without permission, physically or intellectually, will regret it.

Either lighten up, or turn out the light when you leave.

:mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hope12

Hello,


Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus God? What does the Bible say?

Take care,
Hope12

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I ASK YOU TO EXAMINE MAT.3:17 FOR YOUR ANSWER... 17:5
MARK 1:11, LUKE 3:22, 2 PT. 1:17

I have not just posted and left, I have been helping those in NO and Mississippi.
I am sorry if some here feel I just posted and ran because I was preaching. Not true.

By the way, I had asked this question:" Is Jesus the son of God or is Jesus God? What does the Bible say?"

I must say how bold so as to say as acura did "that the Church has the finale say".

We all can only have authority that God grants us, and God has granted authority only to those following Jesus Christ, his sons, commands and also only those who honor his Father, and God Almighty. Here are what the scriptures say about Jesus being the Son of God. First allow me to share with you who I personally feel Jesus is:

The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by AGod the father h alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom God the father, sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth.


Scriptures taken from the NWT:

John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”

John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”

Acura, was part of the Authority you speak of given to the Catholic Church, also authority to change the scriptures. No where in the scriptures to my knowledge does it state the Jesus and God are the same being.

Where exactly and what scritpture says the Jesus and God are the same being? Tell me scripture Acura, not what the Catholic church says. I want scriptures and then we can go from there. Show me where in the Bible that Jesus is God, I really want to see that for myself.

Waiting to hear from you.

Take care,
Hope12
BTW: I am going back to Mississippi the end of the month to help build new houses for those that lost their homes from Katrina. I am telling you all this so you don't think I post and then run. I am not like that.


:)