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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

The word fundamentalist as been used by the media is a biased term and it is used only in reference to muslims, whereas there are orthodox Jews and fundamental Christians too.

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Don't worry, no one likes the fundie Christians either, what with their book burning and such! :) Seriously though, you have a point about "fundamentalist" being applied in a negative way to Muslims, whereas to Orthodox Jews it's not considered negative. To Christians, however, it can be negative, as a "fundie" is thought of as a book burner, Harry Potter hater, etc. The Amish are very fundamentalist, and no one thinks bad of them. I think part of the reason "fundamentalist Muslims" have a negative thought associated with them is because the media talks about terrorists and "America haters" as fundamentalist. So en masse, we think Muslims are gun-toting beheading monsters, when that's just not the case. Too often the only time the news reports on Muslims is when they've done something bad; roadside bombings, honor killings and the like. To a western society those things seem "backward" and when people don't take the time to know anything about the actual teachings of Islam and just go off the negative media reports, its no wonder Muslims are hated in America. Then we have national leaders saying things like, "They hate us for our freedom!" and that doesn't help either.

One thing I do wonder, is in the Islamic countries where women's rights are less than they are in other nations (women can't drive, be in the company of men they are not related to etc), is there justification for this in the Qu'ran? As I mentioned earlier, honor killings or jailing women when they are raped, where do these principles come from? From what I understand these things take place in Islamic nations which claim to follow the Qu'ran, so where is it in the Qu'ran that it's acceptable to do such things?

Oh, and I nominate firmbeliever as our resident "Islam Expert" :)

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

....One thing I do wonder, is in the Islamic countries where women's rights are less than they are in other nations (women can't drive, be in the company of men they are not related to etc), is there justification for this in the Qu'ran? As I mentioned earlier, honor killings or jailing women when they are raped, where do these principles come from? From what I understand these things take place in Islamic nations which claim to follow the Qu'ran, so where is it in the Qu'ran that it's acceptable to do such things?Oh, and I nominate firmbeliever as our resident "Islam Expert" :)

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Hi Jillian,
Thanks for the nomination,
But I would rather not be called an expert(too much responsibilty;) ), as I do refer to many books,websites etc in my answers and I cannot take credit for them.

Women not being able to drive is not really in the Quran and Sunnah,but women driving alone maybe... Hope the following shows you what the position of women in Islam really is...
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http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam...nceptions.html
Misconception 3
In Islam, women are inferior to men because:
A man can marry up to 4 wives, a woman can marry only one man
A man's share of inheritance is bigger than a woman's
A man can marry a non-Muslim, a woman cannot
Women must wear the veil

This widely held misconception does not remotely follow from the reasons given. The first and most important observation to make about the popular question "Are men and women equal?" is that it is a badly-formed, unanswerable question. The problem which many people conveniently ignore is that "equal" is not defined. This is a very critical point: the equality must be specified with respect to some measurable property. For example, women on average are superior to men if we ask who is shorter in height than the other ("Growth and Development", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1992). Women are also superior on average if we ask whom do children bond to deeper, mothers or fathers. Women are also superior on average if we ask who has a tendency to socialize more. On the other hand, men are superior on average if we ask who is taller in height than the other. And so on: every question can be turned around, and more importantly these are properties which are irrelevant.

What then, is the really important property which we are worried about in terms of gender equality? Naturally, from the point of view of the Qur'an and Sunnah, the obvious important property is who is dearer to Allah, men or women? This question is emphatically answered in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:124] If any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
[33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

The Qur'an and Sunnah repeat over and over again that Allah only favors one person over another based on that person's awareness, consciousness, fear, love, and hope of Allah (the Arabic word is difficult to translate: Taqwa). All other criteria are excluded: gender, ethnic group, country, ancestry, etc.

Given that Allah does not favor one gender over the other in His attention to us (and it helps to remember that Allah is neither male nor female), we can now address the differences between the genders in Islam. First, men and women are not the same as we know. The Creator states in the Qur'an (translation),
[3:36]... and the male is not like the female...

Men and women are different in their composition, and in their responsibilities under Islam. However, both are bound by obligations to one another, especially the following important one which must be understood in any discussion on men and women. From the Qur'an (translation),
[24:32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

In this verse, the Creator emphasizes that marriage is to be vigorously pursued by the Muslims: the state of being single is not to be maintained. With this in mind, we can begin to understand the four reasons cited above for the nonetheless erroneous conclusion.

Men and women are different in their responsibilities towards the families that they are strongly encouraged to set up. Women are not obligated to work, whereas men are obligated. The man must provide for the family, but the woman does not have to spend out of her money for it, though she gets a reward for doing so. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:
[2:24:545] Narrated `Amr bin Al-Harith: Zainab, the wife of `Abdullah said, "I was in the Mosque and saw the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saying, `O women ! Give alms even from your ornaments.' " Zainab used to provide for `Abdullah and those orphans who were under her protection. So she said to `Abdullah, "Will you ask Allah's Apostle whether it will be sufficient for me to spend part of the Zakat on you and the orphans who are under my protection?" He replied "Will you yourself ask Allah's Apostle ?" (Zainab added): So I went to the Prophet and I saw there an Ansari woman who was standing at the door (of the Prophet ) with a similar problem as mine. Bilal passed by us and we asked him, `Ask the Prophet whether it is permissible for me to spend (the Zakat) on my husband and the orphans under my protection.' And we requested Bilal not to inform the Prophet about us. So Bilal went inside and asked the Prophet regarding our problem. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked, "Who are those two?" Bilal replied that she was Zainab. The Prophet said, "Which Zainab?" Bilal said, "The wife of `Adullah (bin Masud)." The Prophet said, "Yes, (it is sufficient for her) and she will receive a double rewards (for that): One for helping relatives, and the other for giving Zakat."

Given that husbands are obligated to provide for wives, and that marriage is a highly recommended goal of Islam, it is easy to see why women's inheritance share is half that of men. We note also that men are obligated to provide a suitable dowry to women on marriage. In fact, it is preferable at this point to speak in terms of husbands and wives instead of men and women. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:4] And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.

Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[2:228]... And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them...

This one degree in no way affects the position of the Creator in which He has stated that He does not hold women dearer to him than men, or vice versa. Rather it is simply a way of partitioning responsibilities in a household of two adults: someone must make the final decision on daily matters. As will be shown below in a section on a different misconception, though the final decision rests with the husband, it is through mutual consultation that decisions are best reached at.

While men are allowed to marry up to four wives, they are also commanded to meet the preconditions of being able to financially support them. They must also deal with each wife justly and fairly with respect to marital and economic obligations. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

.... to prevent you from doing injustice.

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Continued from above post-

Moreover, women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal. While it is irrelevant to Islam, it is worthwhile to note that both Judaism and Christianity allow polygamy. The idea is not as foreign to the non-Muslims as is often claimed.

Finally, the wearing of the veil by women is also an illogical premise to claim that women are inferior to men. It is more appropriate to indict a society of female exploitation if it tolerates pornography rather than if it enforces the veil. Given that Allah is neither male nor female, given that He does not endear people to Himself based on their gender, given that the Creator cares about all of us male or female, given that the sexual and violent drive of men is stronger than that of women... given all this, it is illogical to cast a negative light on the following injunctions contained in the Qur'an (translation),
[33:59] O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not be annoyed...
[24:30-31] Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands...

On this misconception, there is a great deal more to write, most of it showing how current practices in many Muslim lands go against what the Qur'an and Sunnah have ordained, lands in which women are treated as property (unIslamic), are not educated (unIslamic), are forbidden their economic rights (unIslamic), and more. On this point in particular, we encourage everyone to consult the Qur'an and Sunnah before incriminating Islam. Always remember that Islam is a complete way of life from the Creator, and that Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong.
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I would also like to mention that in Islam,mothers are recommended to be held in higher regard than the father.
Quran 46:15
And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years, he says: "My Lord! Grant me the power and ability that I may be grateful for Your Favour which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds, such as please You, and make my off-spring good. Truly, I have turned to You in repentance, and truly, I am one of the Muslims (submitting to Your Will)."

Quran 17:23
"And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour."
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Hadith /saying of the Prophet (pbuh)
Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “A man came to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said,

'O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is most deserving of my good companionship?' He said, 'Your mother.' The man asked, 'Then who?' He said, 'Your mother.' He asked, then who?' He said, 'Your mother.' He asked, 'Then who?' He said, 'Your father.'”
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Thanks for the response, firmbeliever. I was actually pretty familiar with the role of women in Islam; I did a short paper for a course a few months ago on the social impact Islam has on Saudi Arabia and Turkey (an Islamic state versus a secular state). Despite what I read about the teachings of the Qu'ran (and what you have posted), Islamic states seem to suppress women's rights with regards to voting and education. Saudi Arabia, at the time of my research didn't even have national suffrage, but had recently allowed citizens (men) to vote in powerless local elections. This seems to go against my interpretation of what the Qu'ran says, so it makes me wonder where the states who suppress women find their justification. It seems that Islamic states have trouble moving toward a democracy, whereas more secular nations like Turkey are slightly progressing. I suppose it's all in the difference of interpretation and who is in power.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Thanks for the response, firmbeliever. I was actually pretty familiar with the role of women in Islam; I did a short paper for a course a few months ago on the social impact Islam has on Saudi Arabia and Turkey (an Islamic state versus a secular state). Despite what I read about the teachings of the Qu'ran (and what you have posted), Islamic states seem to suppress women's rights with regards to voting and education. Saudi Arabia, at the time of my research didn't even have national suffrage, but had recently allowed citizens (men) to vote in powerless local elections. This seems to go against my interpretation of what the Qu'ran says, so it makes me wonder where the states who suppress women find their justification. It seems that Islamic states have trouble moving toward a democracy, whereas more secular nations like Turkey are slightly progressing. I suppose it's all in the difference of interpretation and who is in power.

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I didn't know you knew... :)

About the denial of human rights in currently established Islamic nations-

Misconception 2
In Islam, denial of human rights is OK because:
Islam is against pure democracy
Islam tolerates slavery

The misconception does not follow from the reasons given, and the reasons ignore a great deal of information.

As stated earlier, Islam is a complete way of life. Given this, it is not surprising that the Creator is concerned with the method which we choose to govern ourselves. The preeminent rule which the Islamic state must observe is stated in the Qur'an (translation follows):
[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

From this verse, it is clear that the state's obligation of obedience to the Creator is as important as the obedience of the individual. Hence, the Islamic state must derive its law from the Qur'an and Sunnah. This principle excludes certain choices from the Islamic state's options for political and economic systems, such as a pure democracy, unrestricted capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. For example, a pure democracy places the people above the Qur'an and Sunnah, and this is disobedience to the Creator. However, the best alternative to a pure democracy is a democracy that implements and enforces the Shari'ah (Islamic Law).

The Creator also states in the Qur'an (translated):
[42:36-38] So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord, and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive, and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

Allah orders us in this verse to conduct our matters by taking counsel among ourselves, or by consulting each other. This is the methodology of the Islamic state, to consult one another, but to always keep the Qur'an and Sunnah paramount. Any law which contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah is unlawful. This broad principle of consultation is certainly wide enough to encompass a form of government where all are heard - in fact, encouraged to be heard. The early Islamic states were of this form. The petty governments of many `Muslim countries' today do not apply this principle and in fact commit many crimes against the people.

As for slavery, Islam is unique among the `religions' in its close attention to the peaceful removal of this practice. Before the advent of Islam, slavery was widespread all over the world. The Messenger of Islam taught us that freeing slaves was a great deed in the sight of Allah. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:...
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
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About the oppression of women in many Islamic states are not really following the Islamic principles but more of cultural heritage where women were considered second class citizens or even punished for not obeying the husband.
Sometimes in such cultures older women in the community even withhold younger generation women/girls from getting an education which is a must in Islam, hence the boys grow up with the same views that women are lower and to be degraded.

For example in Pakistan, honour killings and such is more from Tribalism than Islam.
This also comes from some practices in Hinduism in India from the time when Pakistan was a part of the Indian Nation.
Even to this day the Indian government is trying to prevent female infanticide and women jumping into the funeral pyre of their husbands. I do not cite this example out of ignorance, I have studied Indian society during my school years and I have done sociology in India for 2 years in college. This same practice of keeping women under the man's control (not just in words,but punished,beaten,burned etc) is practiced in Pakistan in the name of Islam.

About Saudi Arabia, the same thing is happening as it was happening in the days of ignorance before the Quran was revealed.In those days female babies were killed and women were considered inferior and slavery was prominent.
Islam stopped such baby killings and brought the women out and gave them their rights as mothers and part of the community and a right to education, Islam also freed many slaves and is considered one of the most rewarded good deeds.

Here is a thread on how muslim women came to be in this state written by muslim women.It is a good read to put things into perspective from the women of these countries.
O My Muslim Sisters! How did you get here? - www.TurnToIslam.Com

Thanks for the additional information, and the info in your first post about women and Islam is a lot more detailed than what I recalled. My paper didn't focus on women specifically, but I recalled some of the reading I did while doing general research. That's where I learned Muslim women are not to be considered inferior to men, etc.

After you pointed it out, I remembered that Islam and a full democracy don't really fit together, since, as you said, a democracy places the importance of the people over religious teachings.

I didn't know the mistreatment of women (honor killings and the like) were a result of tribalism. I figured it had to be something other than the teachings of the Qu'ran, because I never saw any indication of that sort of thing being accepted. I had a feeling those sorts of behaviors were not supported by the governments of the nations where it takes place, but based on what I've read in news reports (which I take with a grain of salt) it seems the individuals committing the acts aren't always punished. So it might not be a direct endorsement of the behavior, but if no one in the community bothers to pursue the perpetrators and punish them accordingly, it makes the government's position weaker. I didn't mean to imply Saudi Arabia didn't educate their women, my research indicated they have done so since 1961, but it was met with opposition from much of the public. School is not compulsory, however (or wasn't based on what I read), and my research indicated the literacy rates are very low and school enrollment (for all genders) is quite low as well.

I haven't had a chance to read the link you posted, but I will. It's been my understanding most Muslim women are quite happy with their role in society and in their families, it's the western world that has a problem with it. To me, if someone is happy doing what they are doing, who am I to tell them to change, you know?

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Thanks for the additional information, and the info in your first post about women and Islam is a lot more detailed than what I recalled. My paper didn't focus on women specifically, but I recalled some of the reading I did while doing general research. That's where I learned Muslim women are not to be considered inferior to men, etc.

After you pointed it out, I remembered that Islam and a full democracy don't really fit together, since, as you said, a democracy places the importance of the people over religious teachings.

I didn't know the mistreatment of women (honor killings and the like) were a result of tribalism. I figured it had to be something other than the teachings of the Qu'ran, because I never saw any indication of that sort of thing being accepted. I had a feeling those sorts of behaviors were not supported by the governments of the nations where it takes place, but based on what I've read in news reports (which I take with a grain of salt) it seems the individuals committing the acts aren't always punished. So it might not be a direct endorsement of the behavior, but if no one in the community bothers to pursue the perpetrators and punish them accordingly, it makes the government's position weaker. I didn't mean to imply Saudi Arabia didn't educate their women, my research indicated they have done so since 1961, but it was met with opposition from much of the public. School is not compulsory, however (or wasn't based on what I read), and my research indicated the literacy rates are very low and school enrollment (for all genders) is quite low as well.

I haven't had a chance to read the link you posted, but I will. It's been my understanding most Muslim women are quite happy with their role in society and in their families, it's the western world that has a problem with it. To me, if someone is happy doing what they are doing, who am I to tell them to change, you know?

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About the governments of Islamic countries, some of them have their own political agenda and not the state of the nation in their goals hence the problem arises when the perpetrators are left on their own as this creates internal conflict and which in turn lets the government rule by itself while the people are too busy fighting.

I agree even if you do not say so, that some Islamic countries do not make education for women a priority just because they are stay at home mothers, but Allah ordered all of us to read,learn and understand from the time we are born until death.
It is an obligation of the husband also to educate the wives and the daughters under his care as they are the real builders of the bigger community as each little baby born grows up to be a member of the larger society/nation. Mothers being the first teachers, we have to be well educated to build educated little minds.

About the West being worried about the state of muslim women, it is true, but I also think that some western women are pressured to be super moms,working mothers and great wives all at the same time.
I think there are some women who like to settle down with a husband,kids and build a home life, but the western society sort of degrades a woman who stays at home without working or rising on the status ladder of success, that some women just give up on a home life instead to work so hard in their offices and are too tired to look after home and family.
I am not generalising,but I think this pressure has led many kids astray as two working parents and no supervision has left the kids on their own.
Sometimes women in the West are so busy working(in their offices) that they wait until in their 40's to have children and doctors say that before 30 is a better time to conceive as later first pregnancies are sometimes harder to bear and risky.This in turn leads to fertility treatments which may or may not be successful and leaves some women feeling the lack of children as they age.I am not saying all women face this, but it does happen.

And I also think that the competition to be more beautiful than the next women in the West has made many women depressed and unsatisfied with their bodies, that so many are looking at plastic surgery(which sometimes may turn into a disastrous chain of unsatisfaction after unsatisfaction).
In the true Islamic household the women are free from the above mentioned pressures as it would be the men of the households duty to provide.
I have met women who wear the face veil yet go to work and look after their home,but this is sometimes out of neccessity or because the woman likes to work.

And I do know some women in muslim communities still think that all women in the west are immoral, so I guess sometimes the misunderstanding is mutual.You just do not get to hear the muslims side,but we get to hear your side as it is all over the International news.:D

After all that has been said, I would like to say that some muslims actions do not really show the teachings of Islam(as you already said).Even in our own muslim communities we have those who follow the religion as it should be (and these are among the best of human beings in everyway),but there are those who follow some and leave some guidelines and then there are those who are muslim in name only...

There certainly are misconceptions about women and family roles on both sides. I read recently about a Chinese man who was being sent to America for work, and was terrified of it because he had heard Americans die and leave their estates to the pets instead of their children, that they all carry guns, etc. He thought what a strange country this is, until he got here and realized everything he had heard was wrong.

Some Islamic states don't make education a priority, at least not a formal, schooled education (which explains why it isn't compulsory and enrollment is low), but certainly this isn't the norm. It's also important to note than many of these countries lack the government funding to build schools and hire teachers and provide books and so on to increase enrollment and provide a schooled education. Also, what a westerner might consider education could be very different than individuals in other countries.

Does it anger you that the Muslims who make the news are the ones who are committing terrorist acts or violating women's rights, which leads other people in the world to have such misconceptions of Islam? I remember in the days and weeks after 9/11, Muslims were attacked and beaten "because they were A-rab". There were news reports of discrimination and of US Muslims being afraid to leave their homes because they might be targeted. Then of course we hear about Muslims who hold those who commit terrorist activities as martyrs and do not condemn their behaviors, but support it, because they are "killing the infidels".

One of the things to remember that Islam is about the same age as the Christian church was in the dark ages. I hope as I am sure Firmbeliever is that is does not take as long for Islam to get out of their dark age.

Stay in peace

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

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Does it anger you that the Muslims who make the news are the ones who are committing terrorist acts or violating women's rights, which leads other people in the world to have such misconceptions of Islam? I remember in the days and weeks after 9/11, Muslims were attacked and beaten "because they were A-rab". There were news reports of discrimination and of US Muslims being afraid to leave their homes because they might be targeted. Then of course we hear about Muslims who hold those who commit terrorist activities as martyrs and do not condemn their behaviors, but support it, because they are "killing the infidels".

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It frustrates me more than anger because many do not see the true Islamic faith but instead see violent man/men killing unnecessarily in the name of Islam especially in countries where there is no war.Some muslims who support such people are those who are themselves suppressed by the authorities/other countries and they see no way out from the dilemma,hence they have nothing but support for those who are courageous enough to do something/anything about the situation they are in.

About 9/11, I have read of some people who actually reverted/converted to Islam after 9/11 as they tried to find out what Islam was/is.

I have heard of Indian sikhs (they too wear turbans and do not shave their beards) being targeted because some assumed they were muslims.
If people were to really think and see clearly Jesus,Moses(alaihi salaam), both of them are depicted with full beards and wearing a robe like attire and if you really look at a muslim who follows the Prophet (pbuh), you see the identical image.
Martyrs are those who fight defending Islam. There had been women martyrs in the Prophets time who had been tortured and killed because of their faith in Allah and till their last breath they held to their faith.
Martyrs are only known to Allah as He alone knows what is in ones heart.

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USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
Qudsi Hadith on Martyrs
Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.
Hadith Qudsi 6:
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) say:

The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [ The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Quran. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Quran for Your sake. He will say: You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: He is learned. And you recited the Quran that it might be said [of you]: He is a reciter. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I left no path [untrodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake. He will say: You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: He is open-handed. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.

It was related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and an-Nasa'i).
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Originally Posted by carbonite

One of the things to remember that Islam is about the same age as the Christian church was in the dark ages. I hope as I am sure Firmbeliever is that is does not take as long for Islam to get out of their dark age.

Stay in peace

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From what I have read and understood Islam will prevail during the time of Jesus(alaihi salaam).Until then there will always be those who adhere to the original teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) and stay on the right path.

May peace be with you too.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

It frustrates me more than anger because many do not see the true Islamic faith but instead see violent man/men killing unneccessarily in the name of Islam especially in countries where there is no war.Some muslims who support such people are those who are themselves suppressed by the authorities/other countries and they see no way out from the dilemma,hence they have nothing but support for those who are courageous enough to do something/anything about the situation they are in.

About 9/11, I have read of some people who actually reverted/converted to Islam after 9/11 as they tried to find out what Islam was/is.

I have heard of Indian sikhs (they too wear turbans and do not shave their beards) being targetted because some assumed they were muslims.
If people were to really think and see clearly Jesus,Moses(alaihi salaam), both of them are depicted with full beards and wearing a robe like attire and if you really look at a muslim who follows the Prophet (pbuh), you see the identical image.
Martyrs are those who fight defending Islam. There had been women martyrs in the Prophets time who had been tortured and killed because of their faith in Allah and till their last breath they held to their faith.
Martyrs are only known to Allah as He alone knows what is in ones heart.

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I think the fact that people only see the violence is what causes so much misperception about Islam. There's a phrase tossed around for news stories; "If it bleeds, it leads" which is certainly true. No one wants to hear about Muslims (or anyone for that matter) doing something good, it only makes the news and captures public interest if there is danger or death involved in the story. I think you're right about the terrorist supporters and suppression; government suppression and violation of basic human rights leads people to extreme behavior and makes them more susceptible to believing rhetoric. Look at North Korea - people are literally starving to death, but they celebrate "the leader" and are resistant to western ways. There is also evidence of this in other less developed nations where access to unbiased and unedited global news is restricted.

I also had heard of non-Muslims being targeted after 9/11. It was a scary time in this country and people were looking for a way to vent their anger. Suddenly we were afraid of almost anyone who was middle-eastern looking. To this day, Middle Eastern men are viewed with suspicion at airports; I read an article recently about a group of young Middle Eastern men (I don't remember where they were from) who while waiting to board their flight were in a corner by themselves, praying. Someone threw a hissy fit about it and the men were investigated, the flight was delayed, blah blah blah. And guess what? They were just a group of men praying before their flight. No bombs strapped to their chests, no box cutters, nothing. Just a few guys joined in prayer. I understand Americans are paranoid, but that sort of thing angers me; learn something about the religion and customs before you go pointing fingers at people, indicting they are going to blow up your plane. To contrast that, I had a flight to the US mid-west the day after the big liquids ban here, where no one was allowed to carry any liquid of any type beyond the security checkpoint. My husband and I got on our flight, and I noticed an Asian man with a mason jar of brown liquid with a piece of tape on it that said, "Hot water, please". The man didn't speak English, and finally flagged down a flight attendant and got her to fill his jar with hot water (I assume it was tea). She didn't blink an eye - just took his jar, filled it up and brought it back to him. No one else on the flight cared that this man had smuggled an unknown liquid past security, and that was that. I hate to think of what would have happened had the man been of Middle Eastern descent, instead of Asian. I'd probably STILL be waiting for my flight!! :)

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

.............. I read an article recently about a group of young Middle Eastern men (I don't remember where they were from) who while waiting to board their flight were in a corner by themselves, praying. Someone threw a hissy fit about it and the men were investigated, the flight was delayed, blah blah blah. And guess what? They were just a group of men praying before their flight. No bombs strapped to their chests, no box cutters, nothing. Just a few guys joined in prayer. I understand Americans are paranoid, but that sort of thing angers me; learn something about the religion and customs before you go pointing fingers at people, indicting they are going to blow up your plane. To contrast that, I had a flight to the US mid-west the day after the big liquids ban here, where no one was allowed to carry any liquid of any type beyond the security checkpoint. My husband and I got on our flight, and I noticed an Asian man with a mason jar of brown liquid with a piece of tape on it that said, "Hot water, please". The man didn't speak English, and finally flagged down a flight attendant and got her to fill his jar with hot water (I assume it was tea). She didn't blink an eye - just took his jar, filled it up and brought it back to him. No one else on the flight cared that this man had smuggled an unknown liquid past security, and that was that. I hate to think of what would have happened had the man been of Middle Eastern descent, instead of Asian. I'd probably STILL be waiting for my flight!!! :)

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About the praying, for those of us who wish to follow the right path of Islam,we asked to attend to the call to prayer as it is a call to turn to Allah, and most who are used to praying on time will do it anywhere possible (cleanliness is a must). That is true faith in my idea because the call to the Almighty is what we should obey and not the criticism of other humans.

I am so glad you are one of those who see what most others don't, at least you are keeping an open mind about muslims/Islam.:)

You know the funny thing is the most high muslim populated nation at the moment is in Asia and not in the Middle East.

And the poor chap on your flight maybe taking a herbal medication for all we know (see keep an open mind... :) )

Yes, if I remember correctly, the men said they were praying for a safe flight, or something to that effect. I don't know what the man with the liquid had, but at that point, security was supposed to stop any and ALL liquids from coming past security, and drinks bought after the checkpoint had to be thrown away before getting on the plane. I forgot you aren't in the US, so you might not recall the liquid ban; apparently the British foiled some alleged terror plot involving liquid explosives, so liquids of all kinds were banned from flights in carry on luggage for a period. At the time I flew, it was tough to get prescription medications like insulin through unless the passenger had a written prescription from their doctor. Now there are silly 3oz restrictions, but that's beside the point! I think the man getting his beverage through the day after the ban took effect speaks more to the effectiveness of our security agents than anything else...

I do know about the liquid ban:), its effects were far reaching...
We get international flights to and from here and it effected all travellers,but it started a few weeks later than the American and UK ban.

I look to the *fruits of Islam* and my opinion of Islam is very poor religion and system of government. I have discussed this many times on the Internet, so I will just hit a couple of highlights.

The countries are overwhelmingly ruled by dictators and tyrants. There are a few rich rulers and clerics with power, the masses and masses of Muslims are poor and uneducated.

Islamic countries have contirbuted NOTHING WORTHWHILE to the fields of literature, fine arts, science, political science, social sciences, architecture, landscaping, philosophy, on and on in HUNDREDS OF YEARS. The Koran is the end all and be all, hence most of their their cultures are dying and going violent as a result. The majority of the masses, 76% of Muslims are poor, have no hope. Their goal is to die and perhaps there is an afterlife.


And so on...


Cordially,

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Originally Posted by Choux

I look to the *fruits of Islam* and my opinion of Islam is very poor religion and system of goverment. I have discussed this many times on the Internet, so I will just hit a couple of highlights.

The countries are overwhelmingly ruled by dictators and tyrants. There are a few rich rulers and clerics with power, the masses and masses of Muslims are poor and uneducated.

Islamic countries have contirbuted NOTHING WORTHWHILE to the fields of literature, fine arts, science, political science, social sciences, architecture, landscaping, philosophy, on and on in HUNDREDS OF YEARS. The Koran is the end all and be all, hence most of their their cultures are dying and going violent as a result. The majority of the masses, 76% of Muslims are poor, have no hope. Their goal is to die and perhaps there is an afterlife.

And so on.......

Cordially,

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Choux,
What you see currently being practiced in most countries is not Islam in its true form.
If it was the true Islamic teachings being followed, these people would be among the best fathers,mothers,teachers,leaders etc.

Allah in Islam asks each individual to stand for justice even if it is against his own family.


"literature, fine arts, science, political science, social sciences, architecture, landscaping, philosophy, on and on in HUNDREDS OF YEARS. "

Islam contributed to all the above mentioned fields when it was being practiced as it should be, even today Islam continues to contribute,but in a smaller scale than it was during the Dark ages of the West/Europe.

Islam being a way of life cannot be taken in bits and pieces, it is to be practiced as a total guideline for an individual from the time he/she is born until death and everything in between.
Some of the practices in many Islamic countries go against the very basic teachings of Islam,hence what the world sees is the highlighted mistakes made in the name of Islam.

As in every cullture there are those who use the name of Islam for their own gains and profits,but if one were to understand the true religion of Islam, one must look at the basics,principles,pillars and the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and the life of his companions (May Allah be pleased with them).

The Quran and the teachings/sayings of the Prophet (pbuh)is what we depend on and if you really look into it, in the Quran are guidelines for so many things and the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)is the living example of the Quran.
Muhammad (pbuh)was a son,father,husband,leader of the community,commanded his troops,freed slaves,gave women the respect they deserved,stopped female infanticide (common practice in those days in Saudi Arabia),migrated for Allah's sake,forgave his enemies,made peace treaties etc and as he was a living example of the Quran, a true muslim will be a very good human being.

Jazaakallah khairen carbonite for the confirmation of my answer... :)

Just putting down what history shows. A lot of science came out of the middle east before the crusades not sure why it stopped.

Stay in peace

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Originally Posted by carbonite

Just putting down what history shows. A lot of science came out of the middle east before the crusades not sure why it stopped.

Stay in peace

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Assalaam alaikum,

I think the reason the advancement stopped is when many muslims started to leave the right and true path of Islam.
And many started interpreting Islam as they saw fit and choosing only parts of the religion they wishes and leaving the other bits.

Another factor is I think the worldly greed and the belief that we are masters of our fate and that it is our own greatness that made us excel in the sciences while it is a mercy from Allah that we are able to understand things even in the scientific field.

Insha Allah, more muslims will seek out education and learn the true religion of Islam instead of making it seem/sound like the most backward religion the world has ever seen.

Wa salaam

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

And many started interpreting Islam as they saw fit and choosing only parts of the religion they wishes and leaving the other bits.

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I think that is true of pretty much all religions on this earth. That is a reason many are leaving religion altogether.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

... and the belief that we are masters of our fate

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I truly do believe that we ARE the masters of our own fate. That feeling is very empowering. I know we'll always differ there but I just wanted to give you my opinion.