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Originally Posted by chrisl

I don't quite understand your position on the scriptures. The Quran clearly indicates that the Bible, as the earlier book, provides reliable guidance as the word of God. For example, Al Imram [3]:3 says that the Quran confirms, or verifies "... that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat [Torah] and the Injeel [Gospels] aforetime, a guidance for the people... "

Furthermore, Yanus [10]:94 says "But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers" (M.H. Shakir Translation--underlines are mine)

So, do you accept the Bible as truth or do you exclude certain parts? If so, which? And are you willing to reason on what the Bible says?

Chris

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Why are you asking me? :)
How does my post bring you to that conclusion?
Where did I excluded anything from the Torah and the Gospel?
Religion is for one God, the God of Abraham, the rest is what people kept swerving to favor there own sects, the Koran does say that they did that, Jesus said it, Moses warned them not too and Abraham told them never to change his covenant.

Anything other then this is pure conjecture by peoples hands.

People corupt all 3 religions and mix up there faith with paganism or idoltery, there are many also who do not and fallow Abrahams ways.

I can post pages of Corruption in the bible from translations to translations that even Scholars agree with them been corrupted and all but Islam since its still purely arabic and the problems are also evidance for you and I due to translations. The Gospel and Torah was abused by perverts.

Take the former Pope who past away, he was the only Pope who looked into any evidance that Jesus was put on the cross, and what does he do next?

http://www.politicalinformation.net/.../Jp2koran2.jpg

He said it's the word of God because in the Koran Jesus was never crusified, they faked it to fool his fallowers for political reasons to prove that he was not the masiah and they they, the jews had the powers over him, BUT DID THEY?

Semitic means afro asiatic languages, basically arabic, you will see hebrew or jewish next to this in the dictionary, ask yourself why the U.S. wants to do the same thing Hitler did by calling the jews a ethnic minority add acting like they are the only ones semitic on the planet, this is the only reason it's there in the dictionary, but are the christians and Muslims a ethnic minority too? Racist thinking there no?

Hebrew was not a spoken language until 1945, it was only written without vowels, and abraham spoke chaldean not hebrew, many think he spoke hebrew because Moses wrote it in Hebrew many many Generations later.

So translations took place of the bibles you read which corrupt it for the favor of certain people, and THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DENY GODS REVELATIONS and ABUSED THIS, its in the bible too.

As far as the Koran goes. look at what the Koran says: ( searched online http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html )
Says Abraham has founded the one true religion, God only answers the righteous,this is why sinners always see mysteries and want to solve them, they cant, God only controls these worlds and permits who he wills, all you need to do is his will.

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[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous
[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[3.72] And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.
[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.
[3.95] Say: Allah has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not one of the polytheists.
[5.77] Say: O followers of the Book! Be not unduly immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path.

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The bible seems pretty corrupted, I prefre the King James version over all;

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DAVID'S SON WITH HIS SISTER

[2.Sam. 13:1] Amnon the son of David fell in love with his sister Ta'-mar. "Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Ta'-mar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her. Amnon had a friend who said to him, "Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill, and when [your father] the king comes to see you, you say to him: let my sister Ta'-mar come and give bread to eat from her hand. David sent Ta'-mar to her brother and ordered her to feed her brother by her hand.
Ta'-mar took the cakes she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon, but when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her, and said to her, "Come, lie with me, my sister", she said, "No my brother, do not force me." But he would not listen to her; and being stronger than she, he forced her, and lay with her.

GET FOR YOURSELF A HARLOT!!

[Hos. 1:2] When the Lord first spoke to Hose'a he said to him, "GO TAKE TO YOURSELF A WIFE OF HARLOTRY and have children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by forsaking the Lord."
[Gen. 35:22] Rueben the son of Jacob lay with Bilhah his father's concubine.
[Gen. 49:4] His father blamed him and said, "Because you went up to your father's bed, then you defiled it, you went up to my couch.

PAGAN PROPHETS!!

[1 King 11:3] Solomon had seven hundred wives princesses and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned his heart after other Gods... the Goddess of the Sido'nians.

GOD MAKES PEOPLE FALL IN ADULTERY

[Amos 7:16] God said to Am-a-zi'ah "You say, prophesy not against Israel and drop not your word against the house of Isaac? Thus the Lord says: YOUR WIFE SHALL BE AN HARLOT in the city and your sons and your daughters shall fall by the sword."
[Jer. 8:9] They have rejected the word of the Lord. Therefore I WILL GIVE THEIR WIVES UNTO OTHERS.
[Isiah 3:16] The Lord says "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and THE LORD WILL DISCOVER THEIR SECRET PARTS.
[Jer. 13:22] "For the greatness of your iniquity are your skirts discovered, AND YOUR HEELS MADE BARE. I will discover your skirts upon your face, that your shame may appear I have seen your adulteries, and your neighings the lewdness of your whoredoms."
[Nah 3:4] Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well favoured harlot the mistress of witchcrafts, and the seller nations through her whoredoms.. I will discover your skirts upon your face, and I WILL SHOW THE NATIONS YOUR NAKEDNESS and the kingdoms your shame.
[hos 2:2] God said, "Plead with your mother, plead: For she is not my wife neither I am her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from BETWEEN HER BREASTS, LEST I STRIP HER NAKED... I will not have mercy upon her children, for they be the children of whoredoms. And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers."

I can go on...

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No need to wonder why there are wars today.

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Originally Posted by G4-450

I can post pages of Corruption in the bible from translations to translations that even Scholars agree with them been corrupted and all but Islam since its still purely arabic and the problems are also evidance for you and i due to translations., The Gospel and Torah was abused by perverts...the bible seems pretty corrupted, i prefre the King James version over all;

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OK, here's my last attempt to see if you're honest and open-minded.

The idea that the Bible has been corrupted simply isn't true. Yes, you can find scholars and scientists who will support just about any theory or opinion about the integrity of the Bible. But consider this:

You obviously respect the Quran and accept what it says as the truth. If the Bible were corrupt at the time the Quran was written, would the Quran call it "truth" and recommend it be used for "guidance"? Of course not. This could only be said if the text were reliable at that time, which it was. The portions of the Bible found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of which have been dated to the 2nd century BCE, confirm this. It's common knowledge.

And it is a simple matter to confirm that the Bible text has not been corrupted since the Quran was written. There are many, many extant portions, fragments and manuscripts that predate the Quran that show the text has not been corrupted. You can research it yourself but why bother? It's a fact.

So if the Quran says the Bible is trustworthy and Biblical scholarship and archaeology confirm it, why do you say otherwise?

And the KJV is not a particularly fine version of the Bible. The language is archaic and the translators were obviously biased in many respects. If you're going to be critical of the Bible, you should at the very least use a few translations to make sure of the facts! Get a parallel Bible with footnotes to see the many refinements that modern scholarship has brought to the Bible texts.

Most of your argument with the Bible is misdirected. Your argument should be with the translators and the interpretation by the churches of Christendom. They have grossly misrepresented the true teachings of the Bible.

Also, I have no interest in Middle East or any other kind of politics. Intense feelings about politics and race relations does not allow one to reason clearly about spiritual things. True religion stays out of such worldly issues because they truly are demonic.

Chris

I researched the scriptures you cited and you have all of them misapplied. I'm beginning to think you're just an accuser, not someone interested in truth...

For example, I'm not sure what you are claiming about the account of Amnon and Tamar, but the Bible is very clear that this act was wrong. In verse 21, it says "But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth." The same is true with the account of Reuben and Bilhah in Genesis.

The account of Solomon in 1 Kings is also a warning to us. He fell away because of the false worship of his wives. 1 Kings 11:4 says "...his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." The Bible condemns Solomon for his actions!

Surely you don't claim that the Bible can't point out bad behavior? How else can we be told what NOT to do?

In Amos 7, Jehovah is simply foretelling the terrible violence of the Babylonian exile, which was a consequence of the Israelite's unfaithfulness. They could have avoided it had they stayed faithful.

Hosea 1:2 does not mean that Gomer continued on as a prostitute once she was married. The Bible teaches that people can turn from their wicked ways and become acceptable to God. Is it not reasonable to assume that this is what Gomer did?

Jeremiah 8:9 appears to be the wrong scripture--it doesn't say what you wrote.

Isaiah 3:17 refers to exposing their heads to shame, not exposing their genitals! Put down the KJV and look at some other better translations to read this scripture right.

Sheesh! I'm going to stop here. It's like you are flinging as much mud as you can, hoping some of it will stick. If you are purposely doing this, it puts you on the same level as those who you are criticizing as being corrupt! Anyone can make a bunch of accusations based on misapplying words and their meanings. If you care about truth, verify your claims first.

Chris

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Originally Posted by chrisl

OK, here's my last attempt to see if you're honest and open-minded.

The idea that the Bible has been corrupted simply isn't true. Yes, you can find scholars and scientists who will support just about any theory or opinion about the integrity of the Bible. But consider this:

Chris

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You are trying to see if I am honest and open minded by denying the Bible is corrupted?
Did you know that there where originally 24,000 books?

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Originally Posted by chrisl

You obviously respect the Quran and accept what it says as the truth. If the Bible were corrupt at the time the Quran was written, would the Quran call it "truth" and recommend it be used for "guidance"? Of course not. This could only be said if the text were reliable at that time, which it was. The portions of the Bible found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of which have been dated to the 2nd century BCE, confirm this. It's common knowledge.
Chris

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24,000 books where laying around? Why not add the Gospals of Thomas and others which clearly claim Jesus was never crucified?

The koran was not written at the time of Mohammed's revelations from what I just found out. Mohammed died 2 years after all believers took the Ka'baa from those who committed idolatry around it. his own uncle and his tribe (quar' eesh) tried to kill him as well.

The Jews and Christians who knew the prior books and understood what Abraham was about helped Mohammed take the Ka'Baa, but they never had a Koran in there hands. they simply compared the surahs verbally to the Torah and Gospels in greek to match the universal messages again from peoples handwritten ones. something many people do not do today still...

And the fact that no one at the time of Mohammed heard Jesus was crucified, Gods Son, or the trinity back then, and that these ideas where later implied by jews who translated the gospels in greek themselves years later and who where Jesus' own enemies (evidence in the Talmud) says there that something stinks.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

And it is a simple matter to confirm that the Bible text has not been corrupted since the Quran was written. There are many, many extant portions, fragments and manuscripts that predate the Quran that show the text has not been corrupted. You can research it yourself but why bother? It's a fact.

So if the Quran says the Bible is trustworthy and Biblical scholarship and archaeology confirm it, why do you say otherwise?
Chris

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The Koran says that these people killed prophets from abroad because after the earth expanded they did not recognize them.. sounds like demonic racism still exists today.

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[2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize , they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
[2.90] Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases ; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
...
[2.101] And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

[2.77] Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
[2.80] And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?
[2.81] Yeal whoever earns evil and his sins beset him on every side, these are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.
[2.82] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

1-And the KJV is not a particularly fine version of the Bible. The language is archaic and the translators were obviously biased in many respects. If you're going to be critical of the Bible,
2-you should at the very least use a few translations to make sure of the facts! Get a parallel Bible with footnotes to see the many refinements that modern scholarship has brought to the Bible texts.
3-Most of your argument with the Bible is misdirected. Your argument should be with the translators and the interpretation by the churches of Christendom. They have grossly misrepresented the true teachings of the Bible. Chris

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1-KJB is the closest to the original texts.. every scholar agrees with the KJV unless they have a agenda.
2-You need to read the Gospels in greek to understand things better.
3-there is no argument, even the Koran clearly states that:

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[2.145] And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.
[2.146] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).
[2.147] The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters.
[2.148] And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

1-Also, I have no interest in Middle East or any other kind of politics.
2-Intense feelings about politics and race relations does not allow one to reason clearly about spiritual things.
3-True religion stays out of such worldly issues because they truly are demonic.

Chris

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1-Well you need to separate the politics from the message then.
2-How can one who believes in one God take things personal?
If they do then they do not believe in the same one God right?
3a-True religion is the one God religion and not broken into sects.
3b-de·mon·ic
1-Befitting a demon; fiendish.
2-Motivated by a spiritual force or genius; inspired.

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[2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[2.125] And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.
[2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.
[2.127] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! Accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:
[2.128] Our Lord! And make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[2.129] Our Lord! And raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
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Matt.3
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matt.8
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

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Originally Posted by chrisl

I researched the scriptures you cited and you have all of them misapplied. I'm beginning to think you're just an accuser, not someone interested in truth...
Chris

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Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you, since when did translations seem true to the originals, can you read hebrew, arabic or greek?

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Originally Posted by chrisl

For example, I'm not sure what you are claiming about the account of Amnon and Tamar, but the Bible is very clear that this act was wrong. In verse 21, it says "But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth." The same is true with the account of Reuben and Bilhah in Genesis.

The account of Solomon in 1 Kings is also a warning to us. He fell away because of the false worship of his wives. 1 Kings 11:4 says "...his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." The Bible condemns Solomon for his actions!

Surely you don't claim that the Bible can't point out bad behavior? How else can we be told what NOT to do?
Chris

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The bible teaches faith not just right from wrong, that faith was to be in God for all your affairs not been jewish alone by birth.

But so many translations lead to sects and blood cults, are you saying that they are right of doing so?

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Originally Posted by chrisl

In Amos 7, Jehovah is simply foretelling the terrible violence of the Babylonian exile, which was a consequence of the Israelite's unfaithfulness. They could have avoided it had they stayed faithful.
Chris

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And did they avoid it or did they loose there nation?

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Originally Posted by chrisl

Hosea 1:2 does not mean that Gomer continued on as a prostitute once she was married. The Bible teaches that people can turn from their wicked ways and become acceptable to God. Is it not reasonable to assume that this is what Gomer did?
Chris

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So you still agree with the translations you like, how about the fact that they do not all agree with each other or the origionals?

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Originally Posted by chrisl

Jeremiah 8:9 appears to be the wrong scripture--it doesn't say what you wrote.
Chris

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He says now that the wise were ashamed, and astonished, and ensnared. By which words he means, that the Jews gained nothing by their craftiness, while they arrogated to themselves wisdom, and under this pretense rejected all admonitions, and sought to be spared.

What parts did you find in error? Again the jews lost there nation, the so called chosen ones started mis applying it all.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

Isaiah 3:17 refers to exposing their heads to shame, not exposing their genitals! Put down the KJV and look at some other better translations to read this scripture right.

Chris

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Many Christian and Jews disagree with you and me on that.. again because of the fact of the corrupted translations, same with korans, you can not make words up, learn another language like Hebrew, arabic or greek, even Aramaic and then you can see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

Sheesh! I'm going to stop here. It's like you are flinging as much mud as you can, hoping some of it will stick. If you are purposely doing this, it puts you on the same level as those who you are criticizing as being corrupt! Anyone can make a bunch of accusations based on misapplying words and their meanings. If you care about truth, verify your claims first.
Chris

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You should, arguing shows a lack of faith in God, although you have the right to if your just simply trying to solve anything here like I am and I have faith.

While my point is that the bible is corrupted and you need a koran to understand it because it is closest to its truth, from what you post- you reject the koran, which means to reject a universal God.

God is one, the human race is one, no one has the right to been called the chosen, God chooses who he wills, and he chooses the righteous, those are the parts I agree with the bible, the rest which I posted are facts of how corrupted the jewish scribes where whether they where forgiven or not.

Get it?

So we either agree that God controls the laws of the universe and knows everything we do not, or one of us has been siding with a single part of a book, all 3 faiths come from Abraham, so that means the Torah, Gospel and Koran are one book. and I know I never took sides.

And why would I reject Abraham when he is the founder of all 3 faiths?

You want to make it seem like I reject parts of the bible when I demonstrated to you the same points from a universal view, not mine...

While you say your not interested in politics you play them well, if its was true that your not interested in politics then why reject the koran if truth of one God is proclaimed for all mankind and it holds the same promise to the faithful who keep all Gods Commandments, and yes the same 10 + Commandments?

OK, I give up. This is the kind of circular arguing that gets nowhere. You make so many false assumptions and commit so many logical falacies that I don't know where to begin! Many of your claims are baseless and I don't have the time or energy to refute them. If you were open-minded, I would be willing to keep on. But your mind is obviously made up.

Last word: you CANNOT judge the Bible by the actions of Judaism or Christendom anymore than you can judge the Quran by the actions of apostate Islamic sects.

Chris

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.

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Originally Posted by chrisl

OK, I give up. This is the kind of circular arguing that gets nowhere. You make so many false assumptions and commit so many logical falacies that I don't know where to begin! Many of your claims are baseless and I don't have the time or energy to refute them. If you were open-minded, I would be willing to keep on. But your mind is obviously made up.

Last word: you CANNOT judge the Bible by the actions of Judaism or Christendom anymore than you can judge the Quran by the actions of apostate Islamic sects.

Chris

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My mind is made up? :) you really did miss the message, I isn't the one to blame for it either.

How am I not been open minded here when I understand what you posted very clearly, did you want me to agree with the translated Torah and the Gospel apart from the Koran, why so if you yourself admitted to many false version you personally disliked?

The fact that hypocrites judge Islam by muslims contradicts your point in who judges a book by its cover, and hypocrites do NOT judge by a persons character and virtues, they judge by there own standards,

Jesus was judged by his appearance, it was said that he was a nazerian, and nothing good comes out of there because they where ethnic jews, ethnic cleansing is all the crusades did to people and the minds of many westerners. why don't you take a look at who is really brainwashed by asking some people why its so important what color Jesus was and how it makes a difference if God creates all life?

I think this is where your problem is in understanding the God of Abraham.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.

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There you go :)

This is why I bring up all these issues, they can not bare the idea that there God can be wrong about anything, they actually never realized that God can only be something a individual can perceive by there capacity, so when they hear something sounding wrong they jump.

You want religion, Be muslim and cut every thing off from the world,
You want other, be nothing, because the other religions hate islam, only islam had kept them in peace under there administration, something I was in the dark about for years myself.

And believe me, I could not stand muslims before, I swallowed all the media hype until I worked in news rooms and realized that its all true, religion is abused by the west for economical profit, they want you to think God is money and never be happy from it so you can keep spending it.
And when I say muslims I mean in a sense of the verb, so you can be jewish or christian as a muslim, meaning you DO GOD's Will and nothing other.

So you choose, because if isreal was such a demacracy then why is it that only if your jewish gives you a passport and citizenship?

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Originally Posted by G4-450

DO GOD's Will and nothing other

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OK, next to last word.

So what is God's will, then? Where can it be found? If it can be found in the Quran, then you must respect the Bible too.

But because you invalidate the Bible, you invalidate the Quran, and then where do you claim to find God's will?

Chris

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.

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NeedKarma's response is the fruitage of false religion. Jesus said you would know the tree by it's fruits, so what does this tell us? Hypocritical religions have turned thinking people away from their creator and encouraged them to ignore his word by misrepresenting what it says. That is why we see such desperate conditions in the world today.

But if you want peace and genuine Bible-based teachings right now, go to a Kingdom Hall or better still, an international convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, where people sincerely try to practice what the Bible teaches and where no one judges by race, engages in politics, or glorifies war and nationalism.

Then you'll see something you've never seen before--true peace among people from all nations, in fulfillment of the words of Isaiah:

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
Many people shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Isaiah 2:2-4

(And before you get all bent out of shape, G4-450, in our day that is a "spritual" Jerusalem, not literal Jerusalem.)

Eventually, this will be earthwide. Read Psalm 37 for a wonderful prophecy about this time.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisl

NeedKarma's response is the fruitage of false religion.
Chris

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Wrong, it's based on NO religion. That way there are no hypocrites, no jihads, no crusades, etc. Nice eh? Simply apply the golden rule as your morality base and Bob's your uncle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Wrong, it's based on NO religion. That way there are no hypocrites, no jihads, no crusades, etc. Nice eh? Simply apply the golden rule as your morality base and Bob's your uncle.

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What I meant was that your response to religion is a common one because people are so disgusted with the hypocrites, jihads, crusades, etc. found in false religion.

It's good that you do at least recognize the wisdom of the Bible's guidance with the "Golden Rule." If everyone practiced the golden rule, wouldn't the world be just swell? Well, the Bible says it WILL be like that on the earth in the (near) future. Then Bob will be everyone's uncle.

The question then is, will you and those you care about be there to enjoy it?

You need to figure out for yourself if the Bible is the truth or not because the stakes are high. But like I keep saying, don't dismiss the Bible as wishful thinking just because of the track record of the hypocrites who claim to obey it.

Here's the thing: false religion may teach the golden rule, but only true religion practices it. Look around and judge for yourself who is who.

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.

www.watchtower.org

Chris

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Originally Posted by chrisl

OK, next to last word.

1-So what is God's will, then? Where can it be found? If it can be found in the Quran, then you must respect the Bible too.

But because you invalidate the Bible, you invalidate the Quran, and then where do you claim to find God's will?

Chris

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Hey Chris,

Why is it that you assume that whenever someone reads the Koran they reject the bible??

And you never answered any of my questions...

Here are my answers as usual:
1-the commandments found in the Bible given to Moses during pre judaic times (before the children of Isreal formed 12 tribes) are the same for the children of Ishmael (muslims). that means both Jews and Muslims. And they are in the Koran.. same laws for not eating pork and all.

2-Jesus ministered the same commandments, only he is clear evidence for you to who and why he claimed corrupted the Torah with there hands.

I agree with 1 & 2.

So I never disrespected the bible ever, I said there is so much corruption in it that you need to dig through years like I did until you finally realized that God is one and his message is to fallow his commandments in order to obtain his grace, just like Jesus and everyone before him said and got killed for it too.

Most people who fallow the conjecture and fall short into Islam-phobia and lie usually have it in there heads that Muslims hate jews and its all in the Koran.

Jesus

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Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord...

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*

Matthew. 5:17-19
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.
*

John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 15:19
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed...
Also Joshua 5:15, 1 Kings 18:42, Numbers 20:6, Genesis 17:3
*

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Simple googeling around helps get quick results.
http://www.submission.org/quran/ten.html

The Ten Commandments
(Exodus 20: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21) Confirmation in the Quran

Bible
1Thou shall not take any god except one God.

Koran "There is no other god beside GOD,"(47:19)
He is the one God; there is no other god beside Him.. . (28:70)

2 Thou shall make no image of God.

Koran
2 There is nothing that equals (like) Him. (42:11)
No visions can encompass Him, but He
Encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.[6:103]

"My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols. (14:35)

Bible
3 Thou shall not use God's name in vain.

Koran 3 Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious,
or to attain credibility among the people. (2:224)

Bible
4 Thou shall honor thy mother and father.

Koran
4 . ....and your parents shall be
honored. As long as one or
both of them live, you shall
never say to them, "Uff"
(the slightest gesture of annoyance),
Nor shall you shout at them; you
Shall treat them amicably. (17:23)

Bible
5 Thou shall not steal.

Koran
5 The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and
To serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. (5:38 - 39)

Bible
6 Thou shall not lie or give false testimony.

Koran
6 ... incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying. (24:7)
Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds
A testimony is sinful at heart. (2:283)

O you who believe, you shall be absolutely
Equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of
Everything you do.[4:135]


Bible
7 Thou shall not kill.

Koran
7 ... anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)
"You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped."(17:33)

Bible
8 Thou shall not commit adultery.

Koran
8 You shall not commit adultery;
It is a gross sin, and an evil behavior.
(17:32)

Bible
9 Thou shall not covet thy neighbors
Wife or possessions.

Koran
9 You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. (4:36)
And do not covet what we bestowed
Upon any other people. Such are temporary
Ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to
The test. What your Lord provides for you is far
Better, and everlasting.[20:131]


Bible
10 Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.

Koran
10 *the Sabbath was relinquished with the
Revelation of the Quran. We are told in
The Quran that the Sabbath was only
Decreed for the Jews. (16:124)
God, however ,ordered us to make every
Effort and drop all businesses to attend the
Congregational (Friday)prayer. The Submitters
May tend to their business during the rest of
The day.

O you who believe, when the
Congregational Prayer (Salat
Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday,
You shall hasten to the commemoration
Of GOD, and drop all business. . (62:9)

You seem to be constantly trying to use the Koran as a tool to state that the Koran favours the bible, but at the same time you reject anything in the Koran that is universal, this is where its not open minded here...

Both Islam and Judaism claim to be orthodox and Abrahamic, but one of them does not practice praying like Abraham daily like they used too.
And to pray is also a comamandment;

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Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"
Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"
Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."
Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"
Ezekiel 11:13 "And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"
Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisl

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.


Chris

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No thank you. I was a Big Brother to a little boy whose mom was a JW and I really wanted to celebrate his birthday but alas...

Plus I have kids and a blood transfusion would absolutely be allowed to save their precious lives. Plus I ain't going door to door my friend - I don't want others trying to convert me and I don't try to convert others.

Have a great day!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G4-450

Why is it that you assume that whenever someone reads the Koran they reject the bible?

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I'm sorry if I gave that impression but I don't assume that. I assume that students of the Quran accept what it says, including its view of the Bible. But it doesn't appear that you do and that's why I asked in the first place!

Quote:

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I never disrespected the bible ever, I said there is so much corruption in it that you need to dig through years

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You say you respect it but then you say it is corrupt! :confused:

Either you respect it or it is corrupt, but not both. Who can respect a corrupt book? And why would the Quran say to do so? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't. It says to respect the Bible because it is the uncorrupted truth.

But never mind. This has become a pointless argument and I don't want that. You are certainly free to believe whatever you want.

The Bible says that motive and heart condition is what decides whether someone will understand and accept its teachings. I tried but it must be left in God's hands.

Chris

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I really wanted to celebrate his birthday but alas

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People act like you're depriving your kids if you don't have birthday parties! Says who? I've done my share and while the kids loved to get goodies, I also saw a lot of jealousy, selfishness and "me-me-me." I don't miss that at all, and neither do my kids. I don't wait for a special day anymore--I show my kids they are special every day.

Quote:

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Plus I have kids and a blood transfusion would absolutely be allowed to save their precious lives.

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I have precious children too, who God has entrusted to me, and I love them so much that I would never jeopardize their eternal lives by violating God's laws on the sacredness of blood. The Bible's promises of eternal life--even if we should die now--are so sure that I will obey God and trust him implicitly, like Abraham did with Isaac.

For those who say there is no God and no hope of eternal life, it is understandable if they cling to this imperfect life no matter what. Christians, however, have a higher obligation.

Quote:

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I ain't going door to door my friend... I don't want others trying to convert me and I don't try to convert others.

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If you learned something that would greatly benefit others, like how to make their lives better or maybe even cure a serious illness, would you keep it to yourself? Or would you try to share it with your family, friends and neighbors, even if at first they said they didn't believe you or they weren't interested? How much effort would you make? Wouldn't it show genuine concern for them to at least try?

Anyway, you have freewill and can choose. Just be aware of the stakes.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisl

I'm sorry if I gave that impression but I don't assume that. I assume that students of the Quran accept what it says, including its view of the Bible. But it doesn't appear that you do and that's why I asked in the first place!

You say you respect it but then you say it is corrupt! :confused:

Either you respect it or it is corrupt, but not both. Who can respect a corrupt book? And why would the Quran say to do so? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't. It says to respect the Bible because it is the uncorrupted truth.

But never mind. This has become a pointless argument and I don't want that. You are certainly free to believe whatever you want.

The Bible says that motive and heart condition is what decides whether someone will understand and accept its teachings. I tried but it must be left in God's hands.

Chris

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Well I agree with you to trust in God, if you will do anything that is what you should do,
I can say its corrupt and still respect what is in it, that does not mean there are versions in the original language floating around..

There are many people who use the bible to propagate there beliefs from it, and they only use parts that agree with there agendas, YET...
The bible has evidence against itself that people tampered with it way back before Jesus, just understand the reasons and you will agree and still practice what you should in the bible.

But again, one who believes in God fallows God's commandments, he or she does not just think that there is something out there, they show a real symbol called Faith by sticking it all out like Job did.

So I respect God's words been they are universal for both of our benefit, you will find many arguing that there God is not your God, well I think we both agree that it's a false God they worship and a false way to do it if its god they are talking about.

But the bible is corrupt and you need to be a rightious practitionare to understand it, true, with a heart not the mind to decieve people.

I agree with you but not that it was never tampered. look;

Quote:

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ACTS
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel

7 There is not another. But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

----------------------------
Written by inspired followers of PAUL. The authors of the gospels are not the disciples. Any authentic website will tell you that.

You have proof in Acts that James and thousands of true followers obeyed the letter of the Law. And they got their orders from Jesus first hand.

If you read the last remaining letter of James you'll see that he's warning against Paul. Didn't Martin Luther won't even that letter deleted from the Protestant bible because it was in direct conflict with Paul?

Example;
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This is a refutation of Paul' belief system and today's christianity.

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think Jesus here makes it clear that you will be saved ONLY if your righteousness will exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise! YOU SHALL IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, and I'm asking how this will happen if you are not keeping the old laws ?

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Koran

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64:14. O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allâh as said Eisa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to Al¬Hawârîûn (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allâh?" Al¬Hawârîeen (the disciples) said: "We are Allâh's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.

7:169. Then after them succeeded an (evil) generation, which inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the goods of this low life (evil pleasures of this world) saying (as an excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven to us." And if (again) the offer of the like (evil pleasures of this world) came their way, they would (again) seize them (would commit those sins). Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they would not say about Allâh anything but the truth? And they have studied what is in it (the Book). And the home of the Hereafter is better for those who are Al-Muttaqûn Do not you then understand?

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Again, you can study the Bible and find Gods words in it, but people have tampered with it allot in translation and by religious setcs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisl

You need to figure out for yourself if the Bible is the truth or not because the stakes are high. But like I keep saying, don't dismiss the Bible as wishful thinking just because of the track record of the hypocrites who claim to obey it.

Here's the thing: false religion may teach the golden rule, but only true religion practices it. Look around and judge for yourself who is who.

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.

www.watchtower.org

Chris

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Again you insist on a religion after Abraham's covenant which has already been the foundation of all 3 one god religions out there.

Islam has been the only religion to administer all 3 faiths and protect them, as long as they do not do what you do, which is propagate your beliefs on others, there is no compulsion in religion, people turn to God to be thankfull after reconizing the blessings they have or they do it as there last resort like many because they did sin upon sin when they realize they wronged there souls.

The golden Rule are the commandments in the Torah. Jesus ministered this, Mohammed Ministered this as well and was willing to risk his life because polytheists stood against him and other faiths when he took Mecca.

I can tell you that Jihad is in the Bible first but crusades and there faith has nothing to do with it but religious fanaticism, if it did they would have remembered that JEsus was upset at the scribes who practiced literacy instead of worship to the Abraham and Mosaic Laws. something muslims do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G4-450

The golden Rule are the commandments in the Torah.,

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Nope, wrong: http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

And religious fanatacism will never go away as long as people are willing to use religion as a means to an end.