Eric,

I would like to add a few things here.

I think there is a major difference between being religious and being spiritual. Am I religious, no. Do I personally believe I am spiritual, yes.

I was brought up in a roman catholic faith. I was brought up in the church and now in my later life there are things that I do not agree with 100 percent but I have always believe in God, and Jesus since I was a very young boy. I have always had that truth within me. Nothing was forced and it was not chosen for me. I just always had a strong need to feel close to God. I think it also had to do with growing up without a biological father which made my strong role model God, and Jesus. If this makes any sense to you?

Joe

I was born into a muslim family...
This does not mean that I was "into" Islam as I grew up, it was just a superficial thing then.

In the past 2-3 years my outlook on religion and life changed as I started to really read up and understand my own religion.
Things started to make sense to me, the reason of my life was to live it to please the Almighty Allah swt and He created and sent me to earth as a test to see how much I remember Him,how grateful I am and to test if I would live up to being a good,noble human being.
Death seemed to make more sense as it is not the end but the beginning of eternal life.
I know I am not guaranteed Paradise, but it is Allah's swt mercy that will allow me into Paradise.
I always used to wonder about how some people in this world suffer so much while others enjoy all their life, how some are more beautiful than others, how some find their place in the world while others seem lost in the chaos.
When I started learning more about Islam I understood that in the Hereafter for those who suffered in this world in the hands of others will have justice and be rewarded for their patience.
Lifes roles as mothers,fathers,brothers,sisters etc had their exact roles mapped out and in this that mothers need not work if they did not wish to(as being a mother and helping the children attain the best in their life is hard enough work) and it is the duty of the father to help build a financially/emotionally secure home for his family.
It is also the duty of parents to educate their children in all fields as the more we learn about science etc the more we can appreciate the environment around us.
And racial differences made sense to me, that no one is different from the other accept for their level of faith.


Another thing I understood was that whatever I did in my life was done as a muslim and my whole life from sleeping to waking up,to eating to cleansing, to talking to arguing all counted as deeds good or bad.Islam a comlete way of life and this means that I should not be a muslim just when I pray.

All this and more in my religion keeps me strong when the going gets tough and thankful when all's going well!
All these things make me stronger (and it still is making me more strong) as a muslim hence "firm believer".
I have also understood that being the best muslim I can be, makes me be a better neighbour,a better friend, and a better human being over all.



Disclaimer: What I am saying is not to prove a point or start an argument with anyone who does not agree with me.This is just in answer to rondom1/erics question on faith and why we believe what we believe.:)

The answer is easy. I was raised as a Free Will Baptist, but now I am Atheist. I don't believe in God, I believe in what I can see and prove. There is no way a Bibliological being magically created the world and us as human beings. But I can explain how the world was created by astronomy, and how humans were created by "evolution".

Most people need to believe in something higher than themselves, and a lot of times religion meets that criteria.

Quote:

---

firmbeliever disagrees: I didn't know evolution of humans was a proven fact?

---

That's why it was in quotation marks, because it is a theory.

A theory is as close to the truth as we can get at the present time. That is not something to dismiss as "just a theory". A scientific theory is a very rigorous thing, it explains all the evidence. It's as close to proven fact as general relativity is, i.e. it fits all the evidence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Capuchin

A theory is as close to the truth as we can get at the present time. That is not something to dismiss as "just a theory". A scientific theory is a very rigorous thing, it explains all the evidence.

---

Until the theory of evolution can be 100% proven it is still just a theory, unless research has been updated since I last learned about it.

However, I believe in this theory, and the only reason firmbeliever got me was because I might have given the impression that it was a proven fact.

By using the term "just a theory" indicates that you don't have a full understanding of what the meaning of the word "theory" is in science. "just a theory" is pretty much an oxymoron.

Nothing in this world is 100% proven. It must be a horrible world you live in if you don't accept things that are only nearly 100% proven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Capuchin

by using the term "just a theory" indicates that you don't have a full understanding of what the meaning of the word "theory" is in science. "just a theory" is pretty much an oxymoron.

nothing in this world is 100% proven. it must be a horrible world you live in if you don't accept things that are only nearly 100% proven.

---

I do accept this theory 100%, but it Science books it is named a theory.

Yes. Theory in science is a totally different thing than the common definition of theory in common usage.

A scientific theory is one that fits all available evidence and is falsifiable.

The scientific word that you are looking for is hypothesis. That means the same thing as "theory" does in every day use. Evolution is not a hypothesis, it's a theory.

Ah okay I get it. Hypothesis. Thank you for the correction and understanding what I was trying to say.

Comments on this postfirmbeliever disagrees: I didn't know evolution of humans was a proven fact?
Disclaimer: What I am saying is not to prove a point or start an argument with anyone who does not agree with me.This is just in answer to rondom1/erics question on faith and why we believe what we believe.
First may I call your attention to the guidelines on using the Comments feature found here:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedba...ure-24951.html

I really find your negative comment hard to understand. Otto's response in this thread was to the OP, just as your's was. He stated his opnions and why he has them. No where did he indicate that evolution was fact. I found nothing different in the tone of your post and his. Your disclaimer was well put and should have applied equally as well to his post as yours. I believe you owe him an apology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by otto186

The answer is easy. I was raised as a Free Will Baptist, but now I am Atheist. I dont believe in God, I believe in what I can see and prove. There is no way a Bibliological being magically created the world and us as human beings. But I can explain how the world was created by astronomy, and how humans were created by "evolution".

Most people need to believe in something higher than themselves, and a lot of times religion meets that criteria.

---

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You see I also believe in the theory of evolution. I also believe in things I can see and prove (at least to my satisfaction). But where I differ from you is in your contention that "no way a Bibliological being magically created the world and us as human beings". Have you ever considered the possibility that some extra worldly intelligence set up the laws of physics and biology, etc. And then manipulated them to cause the creation of the universe and this planet? That such an intelligence also manipulated the laws of biology to result in homo sapiens evolving?

No I don't believe in Genesis and its stories about the Garden of Eden. But I don't discount the possibility that some intelligence created and even manipulated the scientific laws that resulted in the world as we know it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You see I also believe in the theory of evolution. I also believe in things I can see and prove (at least to my satisfaction). But where I differ from you is in your contention that "no way a Bibliological being magically created the world and us as human beings". Have you ever considered the possibility that some extra worldly intelligence set up the laws of physics and biology, etc. And then manipulated them to cause the creation of the universe and this planet? That such an intelligence also manipulated the laws of biology to result in homo sapiens evolving?

No I don't believe in Genesis and its stories about the Garden of Eden. But I don't discount the possibility that some intelligence created and even manipulated the scientific laws that resulted inthe world as we know it.

---

That is a good point I have never really thought of. I can understand your point of view, I can even say it's a possibility, as big as the universe is, the millions of galaxies and the hundreds of millions of planets, that there may be other intelligence out there.

I still favor the evolutionary theory. To me, it is more believable to have simple life forms evolve to survive until we got where we are today.

I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm only offering a potentially viable alternative that ackowledges the scientifically provable facts yet offers the belief in a higher power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oracle Monroe

Good boy ScottGem. If only I could give you another green point.

Science doesn't seem to be afraid of religion; in fact it wants to investigate it not to disprove it, but many times to help bring proofs.

Religion, on the other hand, seems to be very very very fearful of science. How come? Take a look at history and there are a million examples explaining why.

---

To put it simply, those who are religious are afraid of being proven wrong. They are afraid of God not existing, Genesis not being true, etc.

I must add, this is my opinion and not meant to start an argument.

Ok I have quite a bit to say here.

First of all, I live in a Jewish household where religion is not a priority and the three of us (myself and my parents) have gone in three different directions.

My father does not believe in organized religion. I have never understood this.

My mother attends a congregation of Jews for Jesus (Messianic Jews). I personally believe this is hypocritical because if you believe in Jesus, you are Christian.

I go to a Lutheran church. I consider myself to be a Jewish Christian. I celebrate ALL holidays. I am Jewish because that is my heritage. I am Christian because I believe that Jesus died for our sins.

You may ask why, if Jesus died for our sins, are we still sinful? God gave us free will. He gave us the freedom to make choices, both good and bad. He also made it so there would be consequences for our actions. I obviously cannot say for sure if Biblical stories such as that of Adam and Eve actually happened or not, but I believe that if they did not happen, they were written to teach their readers lessons. The lesson in that story is that, as I said, there are consquences for our actions.

I believe everything happens for a reason, and that God, with the assistance of our deceased loved ones, is watching over us to make sure we are living good, decent and honest lives. I don't believe God "created" consequences, just the concept of them. We create those.

As for the science vs religion battle:

Does anyone know how long "days" lasted at the beginning of time? No. It is entirely possible that the "days" in Genesis are not the same as our 24 hour days. I believe that each "day" covers a different prehistorical period, which accounts for the dinosaurs. I believe the creation timeline is the same as the evolutionary timeline. We KNOW scientifically that dinosaurs existed before humans, therefore, the creatures God created could easily have been dinosaurs.

I think I'm going to stop now before I get too far ahead of myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oracle Monroe

Good boy ScottGem. If only I could give you another green point.

Science doesn't seem to be afraid of religion; in fact it wants to investigate it not to disprove it, but many times to help bring proofs.

Religion, on the other hand, seems to be very very very fearful of science. How come? Take a look at history and there are a million examples explaining why.

---

Islam is not afraid of science, in fact many times in the Quran Allah(swt) asks the believers to look at the creations and seek knowledge and to ask the people who know about such things and then to verify and to know that these indeed are miracles of the Lord!

Quran chapter 002 verse 042
"And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is)."

Chapter 002 verse 164
"Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise."


We would not know about these creations until we study them...

P.S sorry Otto, my question wasn't meant as a challenge just a question as I haven't really read up on the updates of the evolution theory and didn't know it had got proven..
Was just checking to see if my facts were right!

Quote:

---

As for the science vs religion battle:

Does anyone know how long "days" lasted at the beginning of time? No. It is entirely possible that the "days" in Genesis are not the same as our 24 hour days. I believe that each "day" covers a different prehistorical period, which accounts for the dinosaurs. I believe the creation timeline is the same as the evolutionary timeline. We KNOW scientifically that dinosaurs existed before humans, therefore, the creatures God created could easily have been dinosaurs.

---

Back 150,000-200,000 years ago, the days were much shorter than they are in present day time. This is due to the distance between the Earth and the Moon during this time. Over time, the moon moved farther away from the Earth, approximately an inch and a half each year.

Second, dinosaurs could have came before humans. The earliest human was dated to be 200,000 years old, but they were not ordinary humans, they were known as Neanderthals. They were specially evolved to withstand cold, harsh climates.

For Oracle Monroe,
I found the following on the net...

"In algebra the Arabs contributed first of all the name. The word "algebra" come from the title of a text book in the subject, Hisab al-jabr w'al muqabala, written about 830 by the astronomer/mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi. This title is sometimes translated as "Restoring and Simplification" or as "Transposition and Cancellation." Our word "algorithm" in a corruption of al-Khowarizmi's name.

The algebra of the Arabs was entirely rhetorical.

They could solve quadratic equations, recognizing two solutions, possibly irrational, but usually rejected negative solutions. The poet/mathematician Omar Khayyam (1050 - 1130) made significant contributions to the solution of cubic equations by geometric methods involving the intersection of conics."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oracle Monroe

Thank you for that information. I read something about this in an ancient history class, but I could not give the scholarly references, as my books are currently all over the place.

I always like learning new things about different religions, cultures and languages.

---

For your info again...
In reference to periods in the Quran about creation in six epochs of time.

"The Arabic word singular is 'yaum' plural is 'ayyam'. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, a 'yaum', an epoch."

I am not an Arab, but a muslim from a very different cultural background :) :)