Does Truth Exist?

My belief is that the truth varies with each individual.

There is no truth, there is only what each person perceives to be the truth.

If we are in conflict with someone regarding truth, the best thing to do would be to accept that everyone sees what they want to see and believes what they want to believe.

Sometimes a frank discussion can help two people understand each other better.

But we can never demand the truth because it would only be their truth, not ours and not -

THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TREUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.

Why?

Because there is no such thing.

When we learn that, we learn to trust other people's character and their actions rather than their words - actions speak louder than words.

I welcome your views...

There is truth that is verifiable - mathematics, chemistry, physics, etc. Confucius stated that "absolute Truth is indestructible. Being indestructible, it is eternal. Being eternal, it is self-existent. Being self-existent, it is infinite. Being infinite, it is vast and deep. Being vast and deep, it is transcendental and intelligent." Plato said, "truth is the beginning of every good thing, both in heaven and on earth; and he who would be blessed and happy should be from the first a partaker of truth, for then he can be trusted." John Locke said, about truth, "to love truth is the principal part of human perfection in this world, and the seed-plot of all other virtues."

When something is said to be true, it is then conformable to fact, thereby free from being false.

What you talking about appears to be called "personal truth". That truth is based on your perceptions, values, experiences, and self image. Some call it what you think of yourself when no one else is around (Dr. Phil McGraw's theory). When dealing with other people, you want to trust them, want them to be truthful, want them to accept you as you accept them. It is not all possible at times, is it?

But I do believe there is truth in people. Something's are verifiable, uncontested and qualified. You can test it. I also believe each person has their own personal truth and in relationships, that is evident when people have misunderstandings, different expectations, and ways of looking at things. Talking can mediate those differences. As you state, actions speak louder than words. So their behavior will be the telling tale of truth.

Does that make any sense?

I believe Truth exists. I believe I have my truth and you have your truth and while these will never match, they can be close or far apart. I also believe that the purpose of life is a journey about making each of our personal truth closer to Truth. Whenever I have moved my truth closer to Truth, that specific trouble evaporates and bliss takes its place. When two small truths have trouble with each other, its an invitation to look at who is closer to Truth and the one who isn't needs to orchestrate a shift. Most people I meet believe there is no such thing as Truth or worse yet, that their truth is Truth! Too many people are also pretty close to static, which is not good. They live as if they are made of wood and call that "stability". Even trees are more flexible and changeable than that -- wood is dead. Being wildly distanced from Truth is what others call evil. Many remarkable people all through history have lived lives very close to Truth. And lastly I believe the Truth is written everywhere in the universe but never in human handwriting or by a manmade product -- those are only capable of bits and glimpses of Truth if they are lucky or someone's truth being passed off as Truth. I believe we all recognize Truth when we encounter it, even though we may not be fully conscious of what occurred.

Great question Yagita!

shygrneyzs,

Yes it does make sense. But...

Ultimately truth is really just something we agree upon.

shygrneyzs,

I think you may be confusing truth with fact. A fact can be the result of a scientific experiment but the result may have nothing to do with the truth. A similar experiment may reveal more facts, different facts.

Truth implies assigning a certainty to an action. As certainty does not exist, truth cannot exist.

Two people could look at the same occurrence and they would interpret it in different ways, because their own experiences as individuals will affect their interpretation.

Five of us are looking at an orange. What colour is the orange? Orange. But are all five seeing an orange orange? How can we know?

In real life there is no truth - because we humans are designed to bend the truth for reasons of survival and procreation.

There are shades of truth, and some of us are more truthful than others.

Nor does it mean that a court of law is pointless. In fact the jury system is designed to get as close to the truth as is humanly possible by using a jury of twelve men and women.

Nor does it mean that it is impossible to describe your emotions effectively. This is more to do with being honest about yourself and your feelings and emotions than speaking the absolute truth.

Being honest needn't mean being truthful. You can give your honest opinion, it doesn't mean it is the truth.


"The truth is irrelevant, it's all a pile of lies and historical revisionism, there is nothing close to the truth, it's all in your mind" William Burroughs

I am not confusing truth with fact. 2+2=4. That is truth and that is fact. You can prove that beyond a doubt. Salt dissolves in water. Truth and fact.

As I said there is the truth that can be verified such as in the sciences. There is the personal truth, which I believe you are talking about here.

What you see and what I see are true to us - but maybe not to each other.
I know what you are saying, I am not confused with what you are trying to prove. In part, I agree with you.

Certainty's exist, truths exist, facts exist. There is the certainty that the Earth turns on it's axis. If it did not, we would all be flying through the unvierse. That is true and that is fact.

But you can choose to believe that - that is your truth.

You said that honesty is not truth - I disagree. You can verify the person's honesty, if you choose to go that path. That does not mean all the honesty expressed is truth - a person can say something they believe to be honest or their perception of the event (or whatever) makes it honest to them. But you can verify that.

shygrneyzs,

First and foremost let me say that I enjoy a good debate/discussion so lets not fall out over this. Okay? It's just a forum. If you only knew some of the weird and wonderful thoughts that go through my head - it would keep you in smiles for a month.

I'm not trying to prove anything... I am saying there is no absolute truth... If I were to prove that... That would mean that it was true... And there is no truth!

You can't verify someone's honesty. People are not always honest. You can only try to verify what you are being told. You make a decision whether to believe it or not - this doesn't make it the truth.

And yes a person can say something they believe to be honest but that doesn't make it the truth. It only makes it what they think it is. Truth does not exist - we simply choose what to believe.

The fact that salt dissolves in water is, for me, a fact. There is nothing else for me to do about that except accept it. On the other hand, something someone tells me (and we are more into fiction here than fact) has nothing to do with truth - I simply decide whether to believe them.


By the way, it isn't true that 2+2=4. It's simply a mathematical fact! It's beyond truth. Lol

Truth is relative to the person that is expressing it and the motives that shape their truth. Like the car salesman that tells you this Hugo really is a great car. If you buy it, he can then make another payment on his BMW. Or people that tell you there is not enough proof for Jesus Christ. They have reasons of their own to make their personal reality fit their own truth. Truth is Truth. It is the laws of the universe that hangs the planets in their orbit and underlies everything that lives and grows and has the slightest vibration and exists. The rest is merely speculation, much of which is purely HOGWASH! Ego is the part of self that allows us to bend the truth to fit the reality we like best.

I agree about ego, Maggie... but I don't think just because ego forever traps us in small truth doesn't mean that big Truth not worth acknowledging or pursuing. What Mulder said about it is true. The Truth is out there -- its just much much bigger than he ever imagined LOL. Discovering Truth has benefited many very well in terms of bringing success of all kinds and satisfaction on many levels.

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Originally Posted by Yagita

Does Truth Exist?

My belief is that the truth varies with each individual.
There is no truth, there is only what each person perceives to be the truth.
If we are in conflict with someone regarding truth, the best thing to do would be to accept that everyone sees what they want to see and believes what they want to believe.
Sometimes a frank discussion can help two people understand each other better.
But we can never demand the truth because it would only be their truth, not ours and not -
THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
Why? Because there is no such thing. When we learn that, we learn to trust other people's character and their actions rather than their words - actions speak louder than words.

I welcome your views............

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Your system works only if everyone has a different and idiosyncratic idea of exactly what constitutes 'truth.'

One dictionary defines truth as:

1. Conformity to fact or actuality.
2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3. Sincerity; integrity.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard.

By that definition truth not only exists but is demonstrable. Scientific truth, to which you appeal in your arguments, requires that an experiment carried out in the same environment using the same tools, conditions, processes, and materials, etc. produces the same results every time without variation. Any deviation from standard results do not change or nullify the findings of previous experiments, but strongly suggest that one of the standards has either not been applied or else it has been substituted.

The whole point of truth is that it is unvarying. If you had said that different people perceive truth as being different, then you would find general agreement. But because someone believes something to be true that is not true does not change the nature of that which is true, nor can it.

There is a difference between what is and what is perceived to be, but that which is true is always true unless any of the accidents or variants is removed, augmented, or substituted. And you can take that to the bank!

However, if you decide - idiosyncratically and independently - to define truth as "Whatever is believed by anyone," then language can no longer serve as a vehicle for understanding each others' thoughts.




M:)RGANITE



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Originally Posted by magprob

Truth is relative to the person that is expressing it and the motives that shape their truth. Like the car salesman that tells you this Hugo really is a great car. If you buy it, he can then make another payment on his BMW. Or people that tell you there is not enough proof for Jesus Christ. They have reasons of their own to make their personal reality fit their own truth. Truth is Truth. It is the laws of the universe that hangs the planets in their orbit and underlies everything that lives and grows and has the slightest vibration and exists. The rest is merely speculation, much of which is purely HOGWASH! Ego is the part of self that allows us to bend the truth to fit the reality we like best.

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1. You can have my car when I am raptured, but my doggies are coming with me!

2. Truth is Truth and always is. It is never relative. We might not always know what it is, and w emight have our own idea of it, but believing that the moon is made of green cheese will not make it so any more than believing the earth is flat will deoblate it. Truth is absoloute or else it is not truth.

3. It is not the ego that distorts truth so much as the id. The ego might lie, but only to defend itself against destruction, but the id has no conscience and is interested only in instant gratification and will unashamedly lie to get it.

4. Better to overcome both id and ego and operate under the aegis of the super-ego, which is altruistic. Christianity encourages people to do this.




M:)RGANITE


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Originally Posted by Yagita

shygrneyzs,

First and foremost let me say that I enjoy a good debate/discussion so lets not fall out over this. Okay? It's just a forum. If you only knew some of the weird and wonderful thoughts that go through my head - it would keep you in smiles for a month.

I'm not trying to prove anything...... I am saying there is no absolute truth...... If I were to prove that....... That would mean that it was true....... And there is no truth!

You can't verify someone's honesty. people are not always honest. You can only try to verify what you are being told. You make a decision whether to believe it or not - this doesn't make it the truth.

And yes a person can say something they believe to be honest but that doesn't make it the truth. It only makes it what they think it is. Truth does not exist - we simply choose what to believe.

The fact that salt dissolves in water is, for me, a fact. There is nothing else for me to do about that except accept it. On the other hand, something someone tells me (and we are more into fiction here than fact) has nothing to do with truth - I simply decide whether or not to believe them.


By the way, it isn’t true that 2+2=4. It’s simply a mathematical fact! It’s beyond truth. lol

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If it gets dark at night at the equator, then that is true. Why are you unable to accept that?

If I have two dollars and then put another two dollars with the first two, how many dollars do I have together in that little group? What! You don't know? I'll give you a clue. It is a number between three and five exclusive of both 3 and 5. Try it for yourself. If it works, it's true.


LOL


M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by shygrneyzs

I am not confusing truth with fact. 2+2=4. That is truth and that is fact. You can prove that beyond a doubt. Salt dissolves in water. Truth and fact.

As I said there is the truth that can be verified such as in the sciences. There is the personal truth, which I believe you are talking about here.

What you see and what I see are true to us - but maybe not to each other.
I know what you are saying, I am not confused with what you are trying to prove. In part, I agree with you.

Certainty's exist, truths exist, facts exist. There is the certainty that the Earth turns on it's axis. If it did not, we would all be flying through the unvierse. That is true and that is fact.

But you can choose to believe that - that is your truth.

You said that honesty is not truth - I disagree. You can verify the person's honesty, if you choose to go that path. That does not mean all the honesty expressed is truth - a person can say something they believe to be honest or their perception of the event (or whatever) makes it honest to them. But you can verify that.

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The best and most reliable facts are true facts, and that's a fact!

I really think this is

I am starting to think this splitting a hair. We can agree that we view truth in different lights.

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Originally Posted by shygrneyzs

I am starting to think this splitting a hair. We can agree that we view truth in different lights.

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I don't see anyone arguing with that. But the premise is that truth does not exist. If we approach the same subject from different perspectives and reach different conclusions, then one or both of us has not grasped the truth.

Truth does not depend for its existece on anyone knowing what it is. What went up came down before Newton formulated the law of gravity. If he had not believed in it, then he would have been wrong, but the truth of the principle he defined remains true.

There have to be absolute truths, for if there were not there would be nothing but chaos and flux.

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Your system works only if everyone has a different and idiosyncratic idea of exactly what constitutes 'truth.'

However, if you decide - idiosyncratically and independently - to define truth as "Whatever is believed by anyone," then language can no longer serve as a vehicle for understanding each others' thoughts.

M:)RGANITE

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My point exactly, after all, here we go again. I believe part of what you say to be true, it's just the other part I'm not sure about. Ego, ID, whatever. Frued was a strange ol fart with a serious cocain habit.

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Originally Posted by magprob

My point exactly, afterall, here we go again. I believe part of what you say to be true, it's just the other part I'm not sure about. Ego, ID, whatever. Frued was a strange ol fart with a serious cocain habit.

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Freud suffered from cancer of the jaw that destroyed much of his lower jaw. He wore a wooden prosthesis and was in constant pain. He used cocaine as an analgaesic, not as a recreational drug.

WOW! The thought just occurred to me. You are really Starman, are you not. Starman never posts when you do and visa versa. I know you are in two different states but, could starman travel a lot? You sound just like starman. Tell me the truth. Are you Starmans Alter Ego or Alter ID or what ever? Tell the truth Morganite!

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Originally Posted by Yagita

Does Truth Exist?

My belief is that the truth varies with each individual.

There is no truth, there is only what each person perceives to be the truth.

If we are in conflict with someone regarding truth, the best thing to do would be to accept that everyone sees what they want to see and believes what they want to believe.

Sometimes a frank discussion can help two people understand each other better.

But we can never demand the truth because it would only be their truth, not ours and not -

THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TREUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.

Why?

Because there is no such thing.

When we learn that, we learn to trust other people's character and their actions rather than their words - actions speak louder than words.

I welcome your views............

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If truth does not exist, then any staement that it does is untrue. However, if truth does exist, then any statement that it does not is untrue.

What foolproof method do you advocate for discovering whether truth exists or does not exist?

M:)

"Truth does not depend for it's existence on anyone knowing what it is. What went up came down before Newton formulated the law of gravity. If he had not believed in it, then he would have been wrong, but the truth of the principle he defined remains true."

We have faith until we believe and we believe until we know - then the thing is created... It becomes a reality.

Newton had faith in his idea of there being something which he would call 'gravity' until he believed it and he believed it until he knew, then he shared that fact with the rest of us and we accepted it as fact. Not truth.

"There have to be absolute truths, for if there were not there would be nothing but chaos and flux."

Nothing is absolute. The world and everything in it is forever changing - even when we are unaware of it. Nothing stays the same.

A fact is something we are all agreed upon - like 2+2=4.

Truth is not fact. Truth is variable. Truth varies with each individual's perception of the world and everything in it.

And if you look around you... You will see that there is much chaos in this world of ours and men are dying for something that does not exist.

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Originally Posted by bluerose

Truth is not fact. Truth is variable. Truth varies with each individual's perception of the world and everything in it.

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I agree and facts can be "arranged" to make many different small-t truths. However that is why a big picture point of view is necessary to protect against such distortion. The one of which you speak is particularly terrible - "reasons" for war. Thanks to certain things beginning to happen now in the world, acquiring a really big point of view is becoming more and more possible, accessible. This is the dawn of the Age of Information (or misinformation if we aren't discerning enough LOL). Facts that tell big-t Truth are totally universal and timeless. It is our own prejudices (nationally, religiously, culturally, racially, from gender, etc etc) that get in the way of acknowledging and implementing them. Humans have a great deal of trouble giving up a small truth for a larger Turth. I believe we will learn or we will perish failing to -- that this (meaning all reality for all of us) is set up that way.

All things in the universe are on both continuums and cycles here -- change is not as random as we tend to think. When we began to see some of that by adding each of our points of view together to get a really really big one, it revealed that some of the chaos is not chaos at all. Its more like a piece of a fractal you didn't realise was connected to a much much much larger part. Viewed in only segments, fractals looks like chaos, viewed in its entirely is not possible since they are infinity, but a big point of view will certainly change what you see and what you would call it. This is why while it's a goal we can never attain (at least not in our present state of being or evolution unless you are a Buddhist of course LOL) attempting to adjust our small-t truth closer to Truth is a very very worthy goal.

And welcome back Rose!

"And welcome back Rose!"

Thanks - I found my lost password lol


I agree with the above. There is so much more to the bigger picture. We will never know what it is all about. We will never know the real story. We will never know the truth.

It is all speculation... My belief that we create our own reality from the thoughts we entertain, that the world we live in is but one world, we each live in a world of our own making... So on and so on.

And now…… I have a headache... lol lol lol

Who started this thread anyway? Lol

I still think that the truth is that Morganite is the alter id or ego of Starman! My request for the truth in this matter has been passed over to make it appear as a nontruth or non issue.
AND, who is that movie star pictured there. I can't remember his name.

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Originally Posted by magprob

I still think that the truth is that Morganite is the alter id or ego of Starman! My request for the truth in this matter has been passed over to make it appear as a nontruth or non issue.
AND, who is that movie star pictured there. I can't remember his name.

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I am sure that Starman will be flattered. A little research will show that Starman and I hold discrete opinions on a variety of subjects although we are both extremely well mannered.

What request for truth, and made to whom? Did you send a private message to me? If not, then you are at the mercy of the time I have available to scour through the many posts as I do not read everything that is posted. My life is much too interesting and sltimulating for that. I am also goping to be absent from the board for some little time, so if you have asked something of me that I have not seen, I might never see it unless it comes in a private message, even then it will be something over two weeks before aI can sit at my keyboard again.

But whatever the situation is - do you see that I am at a complete loss to know what it is? - then you really ought not to take it so personally. My neglect of you - if indeed I have neglected you - is a sin of omission rather than a deliberate act of ignoration.

Now, what is it you want of me?


M:)RGANITE who is NOT the stellar expert STARMAN

PS - It has been remarked that I look singularly like Jeffrey "Jeff" Chandler.

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Originally Posted by bluerose

"And welcome back Rose!"

Thanks - I found my lost password lol


I agree with the above. There is so much more to the bigger picture. We will never know what it is all about. We will never know the real story. We will never know the truth.

It is all speculation......... My belief that we create our own reality from the thoughts we entertain, that the world we live in is but one world, we each live in a world of our own making..... So on and so on.

And now…… I have a headache.......... lol lol lol

Who started this thread anyway? lol

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How depressing for you. Are you uncertain of everything? Can you, by creating your own reality, make it so that being hit in the head by a .45 magnum bullet does you no harm, or are you subject to the certain truth that it will hurt you whether you believe it will do so or not?

Now I have a headache! Stop it!

M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by bluerose

"Truth does not depend for it's existence on anyone knowing what it is. What went up came down before Newton formulated the law of gravity. If he had not believed in it, then he would have been wrong, but the truth of the principle he defined remains true."

We have faith until we believe and we believe until we know - then the thing is created... It becomes a reality.

Newton had faith in his idea of there being something which he would call 'gravity' until he believed it and he believed it until he knew, then he shared that fact with the rest of us and we accepted it as fact. Not truth.

"There have to be absolute truths, for if there were not there would be nothing but chaos and flux."

Nothing is absolute. The world and everything in it is forever changing - even when we are unaware of it. Nothing stays the same.

A fact is something we are all agreed upon - like 2+2=4.

Truth is not fact. Truth is variable. Truth varies with each individual's perception of the world and everything in it.

And if you look around you... You will see that there is much chaos in this world of ours and men are dying for something that does not exist.

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Truth is never variable. What a person believes to be truth may be variable, because they may waver and prevaricate, but what a person believes or does not believe does not affect truth, because truth is what is, whether it is believed to be so or not.

Remember the chant: "Red China does not exist!" That was the foreign policy attitude of the US during the fifties and sixties. Was it true? Was it true then? Is it true now?

BTW - these questions - like nmost of the questions here - are strictly rhetorical. I do not expect an answer. But if you do answer, I will not be disappointed.

M:) - who might or might not exist.

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Originally Posted by magprob

WOW! The thought just occured to me. You are really Starman, are you not. Starman never posts when you do and visa versa. I know you are in two different states but, could starman travel a lot? You sound just like starman. Tell me the truth. Are you Starmans Alter Ego or Alter ID or what ever? Tell the truth Morganite!

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You insist that I tell the truth. But you also hold that there is no truth!

I am not Starman. I have noticed that Rush Limbaugh never posts when you post. Are you...

You do not know what I sound like because this is a graphic not a sonic medium. However, I will tell you this. Were you to hear me speak, you would not know where I came from. Guaranteed. Wots ta thenk abooaht that, eh?

M:) of a different religious persuasion that SM. - Look for ideas, concepts, notions, rather than garmmatical constructions. Yours, Sherlock Holmes (Or am I?)

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Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow

I agree about ego, Maggie... but I don't think just because ego forever traps us in small truth doesn't mean that big Truth not worth acknowledging or pursuing. What Mulder said about it is true. The Truth is out there -- its just much much bigger than he ever imagined LOL. Discovering Truth has benefited many very well in terms of bringing success of all kinds and satisfaction on many levels.

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There is no Mulder. He is a fictional character!

Well thank you for clearing that up Starman... I mean Morganite. So, is that a picture of you or Jeff Chandler? By the way, I don't want anything, I'm just curious.

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Originally Posted by Morganite

There is no Mulder. He is a fictional character!

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Well even a fictional character can speak the Truth... that's how mavelously transcendent Truth is! LOL Besides a fictional character is really just an alias for who creates him. Shhh I won't tell, Puppetmasters, that there is a real person pulling the strings. :rolleyes:

Well, you see, it happened like this, the puppet came to life all on its own. It pulled out a machete and hacked loose from its strings then just went to hackin everyone in the place. Hack, hack, hack! Then, out the door it ran, hack, hack, hack.

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Originally Posted by magprob

Well thank you for clearing that up Starman...I mean Morganite. So, is that a picture of you or Jeff Chandler? By the way, I don't want anything, I'm just curious.

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I have been told that I bear a striking resemblance to Jeff. :)

I am still not the delightful Starman, and I never was. Ask Starman. We disagree on some points so we cannot be the same person.

Second after second the universal clock has been ticking since the beginning. There is only one way we got here one moment after another and that is truth.
You can have an opinion on many things but the truth is the way it happened.

Two people in a traffic accident have two different sides of truth, however it happened the way it happened.

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How depressing for you. Are you uncertain of everything? Can you, by creating your own reality, make it so that being hit in the head by a .45 magnum bullet does you no harm, or are you subject to the certain truth that it will hurt you whether you believe it will do so or not?

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Better late than never.

You misunderstand what is meant by creating our own reality. I don’t have a lot of time just now but it’s more to do with cause and effect. Action follows thought. We think about the things we want, the things we should be doing and then we take action…..

I'm sorry, if you say that truth is subjective, you are taking a relativist view... however, by saying that 'objective truth does not exist', you are being absolutist, and what you have just said is a truth because it is absolute and you have just said it. Thus, truth must exist because denying it forms a cyclical argument that only proves that it does indeed exist. An example of a truth that everyone will hold is that, 'all spinsters are female'. There is no way to possibly say that this statement is not true, and nobody holds a different perception on this truth... haha just read Kantian ethics, all is explained :)

The Truth exists... problem is some people so delude themselves with their own rejudices they refuse to accept it when its presented to them.