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Alcohol was iliogal in the 1930's in the US, proabition was deemed a bad idear as the trade of alcohol went to the black market and was run by gangsters.
Is drugs being illigal like proabition. Some people decide to take drugs but if they were legal there could be controle over quality.
Or do you think it would be worse for sociatey?
National alcohol prohibition (1920-1933) was far from our first attempt. Beginning in 1851 Maine imposed statewide prohibition and by 1856 13 other states followed. In fact, prohibition can be traced to the Colony of Georgia, 1735-1742.
In each of these instances the result was the same. Where one regulated tavern existed 10 illegal replaced them. Price went up, potency was increased, crime increased, public corruption was prevalent and most importantly supply/availability of the prohibited substance was greatly increased.
The effect of prohibition is well documented in relation to alcohol and illicit drugs. As example the writing of Levine and Reinerman is a good starting point. Levine does a good job of describing the inevitable socio-medico-legal consequences that follow.
I believe it is safe to say that the act of prohibiting drugs of all types was ill advised. Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as legalizing, or de-criminalizing at this point.
Substance prohibition is richly documented see also (H. G. Levine, 1978, 1984; Ian Tyrell, 1979; Jos. Gusfield, 1986; Rumbarger 1989; Blocker 1989).
Hello d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dronit
NOTHING could equal the damage to society that the drug war has caused.
excon
Does this mean you think it should be legal as it cost a lot on the 'war on drugs' which is clearly a losing battle.
That is true. The freedoms lost, given up to ill conceived drug-directed statutes, i.e. seizure laws (criminal and civil), no knock searches, etc. These won't be considered as part of drug reform. Possession laws have criminalized a very large segment of society (that didn't exist with alcohol prohibition). That is irreversible.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
You can be arrested for having too much money on your person. Then the money can be seized by the arresting agency even if they don't file charges. Your car, or someone else's car you are driving, can be seized for a misdemeanor violation, whether you are convicted. These all emerged from the "war on drugs" and were generalized to apply to other circumstances.
Hello d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dronit
That's EXACTLY what I mean.
excon
Hello excon:
If we LEGALIZED drugs, what kind of message would that send?
excon
Hello again, excon:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I don't think there IS a message... After all, I don't get a message when I buy safety pins. Do you? I just buy them because I WANT them. I certainly don't believe I can buy them because the government APPROVES.
But, if there IS a message to be had, it would be, that the policy the government pursued over the years was WRONG, and they're FIXING it. Isn't that what we WANT government to do - to FIX problems??
excon
I agree with excon.
I think all drugs should be legal. I think it would be better for society not worse.
We talk about freedom so what's the harm if some one wants to take drugs it doesn't effect any one else, just like it's a choice to drink alcohol or smoke, we know the dangers some choose to do it any way others choose not to. Why can't this be the same for drugs. It would make drug useres not criminals and would save the government money on the redicculas amount they spend on the 'war on drugs' Its very rare they get the people at the top, they just get addicts who need medical help instead of jail.
I'm all for legalizing marijuana, but would it be okay to legalize drugs like Ketamine (yes it's being used by the population now), and LSD, how about PCP? Hey, why not GHB while we're at it!
Hello J:Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Why not?
Keep in mind, of course, that I'm not talking about DRIVING or operating heavy equipment. I'm not talking about CHILDREN, and I'm not talking about robbing your local 7/Eleven.
I'm talking about adults who want to get high.
excon
Yed I think those drugs should be legal. LSD is not harmful to the body it has less toxic value then alcohol. The effects change your perception while you are on it. But it is not an adictive substance like alohol.
As for ketermin, it does't have any really bad effects, it can be adictive but not phisicaly adictive.
GHB brakes down in the body very quickly and has a very lox toxic value. It's not harmful if you are careful, don't mix it with alcohol that's when it could become dangerous. But if it were legal it could be sold as doses and guide lines to make it safe for the user.
PCP is in the same drug family as ketermine, it lasts much longer and is sronger, but yes if you want to take it it should be your choice and you shouldn't be a criminal for taking them.
Nothing could be more true .Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
In places where it has been legalized the addiction rate and crime rate both drop dramatically .
We could possibly put a large number of "law enforcement" people out of work... which I feel would not be a bad thing.
Ex is absolutely right , correct , spot on, and speaks a great truth.
If he were not a man of honor I'd say elect him president.
Agreed. Lets hope one day that probition of drugs ends and we can look back and see that that it was a great mistake to make them ileagal in the first place. We all know that alcohol is just a drug like any other, people should choose to use or abuse drugs. LSD is much more fun then getting drunk, and I can't see any one wanting to fight on drugs like LSD, MDMA, KETERMIN, WEED.
Why not, I think it is that simple? State why?
Should there be prescriptions or should we eliminate that "prohibition " too ?
Hello tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
If prohibition is the problem, and it is, then why keep banging ourselves in the head with a hammer? You certainly don't believe prescription drug prohibition is keeping them out of the hands of their abusers, do you? In fact, I believe they are the most abused drugs these days...
I suspect you believe that's so, because we haven't really CRACKED DOWN yet.
Drug abuse is a health issue - not a legal issue.
excon
Maybe we should make them free also ? On Long Island recently there was a mass murder at a pharmacy so an addict could get her hit of prescription pain killers she abused .
What should we do about OTC ? Ephdrine based products were once widely available until the authorities realized how easy they could be turned into meth in a kitchen lab.
This is one of those questions that makes me ask, where have you been? People have been fighting this fight for as long as I can remember, and I'm 64. Marijuana is slowly but SURELY getting decriminalized or even legalized little by little, and when the tobacco companies and organized crime feel that they are ready to jump their fences, they will stop lining the pockets of the legislators who keep it illegal.
Just one tiny part of the whole equation. Rather than getting sidetracked with different drugs, concentrate on one type of drug at a time. Weed first!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dronit
5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results: Scientific American
There's a lot of art. Like this.
Sure let's make all drugs (medications are drugs) over-the-counter now. HA HA HA!!
Drug prohibition is world-wide phenomenon enforced by international treaty(ies). The US cannot act unilaterally to legalize drugs or to lift national prohibition. Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs is the foundation of American drug policy right down to the Scheduling I-IV of drugs. Even that cannot be modified except by petitioning the UN, Narcotics Control Board (INCB), which in turn must obtain an agreement through the World Health Organization (WHO).Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
In addition, the most potent political forces in the US are opposed not only to legalization but even to de-criminalization: Pharmaceutical industry, American Medical Association, American Bankers Association are but three examples that would be financially devastated by even decriminalization.
Excon notes that drug abuse is a health issue. Indeed it is. But prohibition is and always has been an economic issue. If those two factors bump into one another it is an accidental meeting. No where is that more apparent than in the passage of the Marijuana Tax Act (1937) through the efforts of Harry Anslinger (Dir of FBN) on behalf of the Mellon (banking) family and William Randolph Hurst the publishing magnate. These records are now public and paint a very dark picture of American politics and regulatory practices.
I see that parttime has already provided information on Portugal's decriminalization. That is an example, now 10 years old, that provides the basis for a more realistic approach to Drug Control (your government doesn't like the word prohibition) while working within the boundaries of the UN mandate. Following is another link in relation to Portugal: DRUG DECRIMINALIZATION IN PORTUGAL
Sorry I haven't read back but I think marijuana should definitely be legalized.
My mum has a medical condition that marijuana has been proven to help with, pharmaceutical drugs were ineffective in managing both pain and symptoms.
It's not addictive like nicotine and has no lasting side effects, I do more stupid things when I'm drunk than when I'm high so that's not a reason either.
I also haven't really read back, but I agree with Shaz. I think Marijuana should be legalized too. Maybe not leagalized, but just decriminilized. I also agree with the medical treatment. A family member of mine is retired military and his knee's are badly damaged from "jumping out of planes, trains and automobiles" as he puts it. He says the only relief he gets is when he smoked a joint.
I also feel that if there were the same restrictions as alcohol (no driving under the influence etc... ), then there would be nothing wrong or more harmful then say smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol. I never hear about a high domestic dispute... etc.
On June 21, 2011 the DEA issued a ruling refusing to reclassify marijuana to a less restrictive category, stating that it has no medical use. See DEA ruling.
You should take great pride and confidence in the fact that these are the folks regulating the drugs you take, supervising the pharmaceutical industry, looking out for your benefit.
The drug my mum was on she had to go in every 8 weeks and be re-evaluated by the government to see if it is 'worth' giving to her because it's so expensive.
If she only improved a little bit, or had a bad month then they would cut her off.
Yeah, they're really looking out for us.
Long story short, she had to go off the drug anyway as it causes infections.
Now she is on a new drug that causes migraines, suicidal tendencies, hallucinations, mood swings... how is that better than a whiff of Mary Jane?
I sometimes forget that in brief written comments in this format can be interpreted literally... my final comment was entirely ironic.Quote:
Originally Posted by shazamataz
The banishment of cannabis in 1937 was entirely economic, a political act to further private financial interests. It remains so to this day. Unfortunately, at this point, the US government now has an enormous financial interest in maintaining the façade. That is apparent in the recent ruling.
Perhaps a case can be made for weed. But the op and some other commenters have floated the idea of a blanket end to the ban on all illegal ,and if I read it correctly, deregulation of controlled substances ;including prescriptions.
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
IF the PURPOSE of the law is to KEEP these drugs out of the hands of abusers, then it isn't working... If you can come up with ANOTHER solution, OTHER than doubling down on what doesn't work, HASN'T worked, and doesn't look like it ever WILL work, I'll be happy to consider it.
excon
Got to love the internet for that, sorry I took it the wrong way.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
In terms of harder, more damaging drugs I don't think lifting a ban will help, if anything it will make it worse.
How many kids think about taking drugs just to "see what it's like"? And how many get hooked and continue to take it?
Not to mention accessibility, how would the new legalized heroin be distributed? Just pop down to your local pharmacy for a gram or two?
I think all drugs should be legal. When I was a kid I smoked pot before I ever sipped alcohol and the reason for this. Drug Dealers don't care how old you are they will sell it to anyone. Now if it was legal I wouldn't have been able to get it in home room at my high school.
Hello shaz:Quote:
Originally Posted by shazamataz
You bring up two excellent points. I think I can handle them with ONE argument... There's NO disagreement about kids and drugs and the damage addiction causes. You're right too, accessibility IS the problem...
However, the drug laws haven't reduced availability. Kids know where to get it.. It's EASY. At the VERY least, popping down to the local pharmacy, as you put it, will at LEAST require the production of an ID saying the user is 21. Will kids cheat?? Of course, they will.. But, at least there's a LAYER between your kids and dangerous drugs, where there isn't one now...
Let me also tell you about WHY kids think that dangerous drugs aren't really that dangerous... Clearly, they SEE that the government is LYING about the dangers of marijuana, so they're probably LYING about the dangers of heroine too... Isn't there a story about that? Something about a wolf??
Let me also mention that along with legalization we should provide treatment ON DEMAND for drug addiction... Today, even IF an addict wanted to get off drugs, there's no place for him to go.
Finally, if drugs are legalized, the manufacture can be regulated where there won't be any ugly stuff in the drugs people take... And I suppose I should mention that clean needles would be available, and that's got to cut down on aids and hepatitis..
Sorry. I guess I used more than one argument...
excon
I think we as a society focus too much on how illegal these drugs are (the illegal ones, that is) and on making sure those who use drugs illegally and especially those who use illegal drugs get punished.
Drug abuse is dangerous and people die from the effects of drugs all the time. Compound that with people who die from the effects of this drug war (I'm thinking of the 15 year old girl in Juarez who was shot in the head on her quinceañera, as collateral damage, during a fire-fight over drugs).
I feel that arresting drug users is only treating a symptom of the problem. I think that we're uneducated as to the effects of drugs and people who are suffering from addictions have little resources.
Decriminalizing drug use and abuse is a good step. Educating ourselves on what an addiction (OF ANY KIND) looks like and how to help our loved ones suffering from an addiction is another good step. I agree with ex that if a working adult wants to get high... whatever. Let their punishment be social, not costly imprisonment.
Take the power away from the black market and cartels. Legalizing and regulating weed is a great idea. It has medical benefits, it's far less dangerous than alcohol, and it's a huge source of revenue for gangsters when it's illegal.
I don't have ideas for how to take cocaine, meth, heroin, et al, away from gangsters... but I would love to see it happen.
Greenie for you. Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Ex... bravo! You made every argument I did (and more), only before I was able to and much more effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
We need to stop lying about drugs to ourselves and especially our kids. It's obviously doing no one any good.
I agree! I think legalizing them and having some sort of control over distribution and age is where the problem could be fixed. Kind of like the prostitution in Amsterdam. It's just way too accessible for kids to get their hands on these drugs.
I also don't compare pot heads to crack heads, it's like comparing apples to oranges. When I volunteered at an addictions foundation program there were horror stories of crack or meth users robbing their grandparents and other family members for the drugs, they would kill to get the money to buy this stuff, and then there were the few pot heads who were caught with a gram or two smoking behind the local 7-11 (only because it was convenient to get their munchies and DVD's in one stop) and were on their way home, and caught and forced to do an addictions program. Or how about some of the American laws like the 3 strike policy where a person gets caught with marijuana and is stuck doing a life sentence, when there are mother killing their daughters and walking free.
Whether it's legal or not, drugs will not go away. Why not legalize and have more control over it?
Hello again, sa:Quote:
Originally Posted by southamerica
Nahhh... We had a simultaneous conclusion... Got a cigarette?
excon
Hello again:
I've got one more argument, then I'll shut up..
Some say there's LOTS of people, who are chomping at the bit, but WAITING on the sidelines for drugs to become legal...
Do YOU know anybody like that? I don't. Everybody I know who WANTS to use drugs, is using drugs.
That's not to say that there won't be a few people who will try drugs for the first time... However, IF we provide treatment on demand, I believe there will be MORE people getting OFF drugs than are getting ON. Yes, addiction IS as bad as we think it is.
excon
Hahaha. It was certainly a pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Very good points Exy, you've made me think.
I don't think it's easily accessible where I live, but I only live in a relatively small town. And that's not to say it doesn't exist here, but if I wanted to try something, I would have a helluva time finding it.
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