I'm leaning toward good... but just not sure. What do y'all think?

If the boy wants to go to prison I'm sure he'll think of ways to get in when he's older.

His dad's in jail, and look at the background, doesn't look remotely well off. The kid probably thinks he's poor. I don't think humiliating him is the best way to handle that. He probably already feels humiliated because he thinks he's poor. No doubt why he's stealing, heck that's why my sister stole as a child.

If the mom wanted to teach him a lesson, she should start by setting an example. I'm guessing she should get some more income, get into a better environment, and date better men. And she could have left the authorities handle it, then make his butt get a part time job.

I think it's good. The people in the picture don't look like they are not well off. They have nice, clean clothes on. For all we know, his mother probably took her kid to the getto and had him hold the sign up there. So I don't think the background necessarily gives off any indication that they are already poor. Hopefully, the boy will be embarrassed about it and will have learned his lesson.

I think for kids of certain ages, when humiliation is a deterrant, it's a good thing. But, sometimes it depends on the kid and the reasons they committed the crime they did. If this boy stole because he was dared to, or because he was trying to impress someone, this is great. If he stole because he wanted to pawn the stuff off to get money to do more sinister things... it might be a waste of time, as there are bigger issues at hand.

And I don't think economic status makes a difference here; we have no way of knowing their financial sitation, or anything about their personal life (aside from the father being in jail). But regardless, there are good people who are in bad situations, and good kids who fall into bad crowds. If holding a sign up on the street corner teaches him his lesson, it's a good thing.

Hello Rick:

I'm more encouraged by Mom sitting right there than I am about what the sign says or what the kid did. She's running things. That's GREAT for any 13 year old.

excon

I think it a good punishment. It makes him think about his actions and realise the consequence. Too many people threaten punishments they have no intention of carrying out.
Good on the mum!

It seems strangely familiar I think I remember I pilot scheme they did with adults for things like minor distrubance of the peace and littering.

I think it is terrible. He will probably be taunted and teased. Which will cause a different set of problems.

She could have made sure that he was not in situations to steal anymore and her not trusting him and him not being allowed to go in stores etc... alone would have been better punishments than this. This was easy for her sitting on her rear having a drink, rather than making him earn "free time".
Btw I think she probably had a hand in choosing his daddy, why throw that in the child's face. I say get out of the chair and moniter your child.

I think it is 100% terrible. I have pots and pans older then this young boy. I don't even know where to begin.

He's a child, and there has to be better ways to teach a child not to steal, who is without his father, because his Dad is in jail.

The young man or really child, has to be hurting inside and adding humilation to already sadness and humilation I don't think is the cure.

I feel for that little boy.

I do feel for the Mom as well, as she may feel she exhausted everything to get him to not steal and listen to her, so I in no way judge her. She probably is freightend that her son is following the same road as his Dad.

Maybe love, a consitent talking to, taking away things he enjoys, and several visits to see Dad's new home, I think may have been better, but maybe she tried all that.

Just so painfully sad. A mother's desperate attempt to have her son turn right, and a young boy, needing his Dad, who is in jail.

I'm not a parent, and I would be at such a loss myself. As they say, toughest job there is, and hats off to all parents out there.

To be fair, since all we are going on is a photo, we don't know what the circumstances around his previous actions and punishments are. Maybe she's tried alternate punishments, and once he's got a little bit of trust, he blows it again (my brother certainly did that time and time again). Maybe he stole while under the not-so-watchful eye of another adult who was supposed to be trustworthy. Maybe if he had friends who were with him and they also got caught stealing, they are on the other corner with similar signs. Maybe he stole money from her purse while she was sleeping when he should have been tucked safely in bed.

I do think it's lousy to add the bit about his father, but again, we don't know the circumstances. But, speaking from the point of using this sort of punishment, I think it has the possibility to be a powerful deterrent. At least the mom is doing something rather than nothing.

I'm with excon. And she should make him pick up all the trash lying around too.

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Originally Posted by Depressed in MO

The people in the picture don't look like they are not well off. They have nice, clean clothes on.

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Po' people have nice clothing and washers and dryers.
If she shops at the thrift store she might have completely clothed both of them (tennies, T shirts and shorts) for under $25.
So clothing does not prove a persons being poor or not! Heck I even have a really nice midi length fur coat that I curb shopped!
Most 'poor' people I know have 42 inch screen TV's, computers and all the modern luxuries.

Any way I agree with the ones that said it depends on the circumstances and so forth.
I remember when this was first an issue a few years back. It was split some people saying the punishment fit the crime and others saying it was abuse. With those circumstances I was with the ones saying the punishment fit the crime.

Yes, one of the best things ( assuming this is the mom ) we have a parent involved in the child's life, we have a teen who is finding out that if you do something wrong there will be a punishment.

I wish most parents could be like this.

I think that this method has been used before for different people. Embarrasement is a great deterrant. Whether it be for that boy or and other people witnessing that punishment.

First off... I agree with excon... heck yeah! Mom should be right there... that speaks volumes! SHE DON'T PLAY! And this will do more for him than a stint in juvenile detention where he'd just meet more kids that have criminal behavior and network his way into a very bad situation. I think it is a very good punishment but even more so because mom is sitting right there.

Now... as for

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Originally Posted by mafiaangel180

If the mom wanted to teach him a lesson, she should start by setting an example. I'm guessing she should get some more income, get into a better environment, and date better men. And she could have left the authorities handle it, then make his butt get a part time job.

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Not to jump on your case or anything but... How easy would it be for YOU right now to just go out and get "some more income," a "better environment," and date a "better" man/woman? (Even if you don't "want" to, but "had" to... how would it be? Someone out there just waiting to hand you a few million, a palatial estate and whatever your equivalent of Brad Pitt would be?)

When people are limited by income, I don't think it is very often by choice. In times when the dollar is incredibly small and shrinking... maybe Warren Buffet and his buddies aren't too stressed... but they are hardly limited by income. There may be a terrible job market where she lives, they may HAVE money and he just did it for the thrill... we don't know this.

When people live in more impoverished neighborhoods, it may be by choice... it could be where they grew up and they feel a sense of belonging and family with the community and want to work to make it better. Usually though, it's not by choice.

And the better man thing. We know absolutely nothing about this family other than what we can see in the picture and then it is only assumptions based on what we have experienced. We have no idea what got dad in prison... we can make assumptions and, by all means, even the worst of assumptions could be quite accurate. But maybe not. Maybe she isn't even with the kid's father and she may be with a "better" man.

After working in the juvenile justice system, I've seen that the worst thing for this kid would be to get caught up in the system. Becoming institutionalized, criminalized, possibly dehumanized. The recidivism rate for juveniles is ridiculous and there is usually little or no funding for programs that would help.

The absolute BEST thing for this kid is for his parent(s) to take control and administer a consequence that is fair. Yes, this is a unique way to do it. And yes, he probably did feel humiliated. I'd rather feel a bit of humiliation and learn from it than face, say... violence/abuse, detention, possible elevation into bigger crimes that may get me killed.

I want to shake that lady's hand!

Wow,

First - the mother obviously cares what happens to her son, otherwise she might have let it go. Is this humiliation, as harsh and seemingly cruel as it is, worse than a life of crime, prison and no future?

Second - the mother is / has raised him by herself, because his father set the bad example, and she wants to teach him otherwise.

Third. - He is 13, not 5. I would bet that this mother has taught him right and wrong and told him stealing was wrong at a younger age. Maybe this lesson will stick.

Fourth - He looks well groomed, fed and clothed. If he looked emaciated and was stealing food, I can understand. This does not appear to be the case. So whether you live in a poor neighborhood or are a rich ex Enron executive, stealing is wrong.

Izannah, I wish I could give you a greenie - well said! :)

I pretty much agree with Izannah. My kids grew up in the poor 'hood that I have moved back to since they are now grown up. Living in the 'hood does not equal bad kids. Three of my kids are in the military now and all four are great kids.
We lived in a 'good' neighborhood for a few years, where most all the parents worked. The kids were bullies because parents at work they had nobody to tell them what to do so they went around stealing bikes and bullying kids. If you said something to them they just smart mouthed you. Their parents were so busy working to make sure they could buy them material things they really didn't care. They had the indignant 'NOT my kid' attitude if you did say something.
If you want to go by what the picture looks like I would agree that the mom is very concerned with the out come of the child's life and she had 'proper up bringing' and values herself and wants to put a stop to the child going down the wrong road.
And I agree with Izannah it is very hard to just move out of the poor section of town to an upper section. They all have their problems anyway. It is what you make of where you live.

I hope that I never make my children be ashamed of who they are. I hope I never say or do anything that makes the world view them with disdain, disgust or fear.

I know what it is to grow up having your fathers / his families failures thrown up in your face. Every time you do something that is negative, "your just like that bunch".

Look at this young boys face, eyes downcast, wonder how many times the fathers failures have been thrown into this child's face.

Yes, he should be punished for stealing, but I think it could have been done in a more loving way. He needs somebody to wrap their arms around him and show him that even though he did something wrong he is worth loving.

To me this picture does not show love.
I have 3 children and I would never dream of doing something like this to them, and yes we have a few skeletons in our families closet but that is for our families to know, not for the world to judge my children by.

I bet if he stole something in school and the teachers/principal made him stand with this sign (inside school or outside of school) There would be a lawsuit filed lickety split.

Bushg I am with you all the way. I feel for the Mom and young boy, but I know the injuries of humilation, and sadly they are life long wounds sometimes.

To me, they both look like beautiful healthy people. Maybe she picked that spot, because it would be the best place to be seen and maybe where he did some of his activities.

Let's just hope the best for this young man, and Mom too.

Like you say there is only a picture to go on, not knowing his back ground or home life, apart from the fact that his Dad's in jail and his Mum's sat beside him in the street it's a bit difficult to comment on the whole situation.

He doesn't look dirty or undernourished and his clothes- as does his Mum's- look perfectly acceptable, maybe it's a status thing like street cred' if he goes into jail it perhaps makes him appear hard, a man to his mates, respect from the street kids or something similar.
It could be in his eyes that his Dad commands respect for doing time when he comes out he takes no s... from anyone so he's looked up to.
Maybe the lads being bullied and feels this is what he has to do to gain that same status.

I think it's a phycological thing which you would need to be on his wave length before he opened up to you.

Prison is not the answer for this lad for I am sure that he would learn further crime ten fold, maybe patience and understanding or time out with someone other than his Mother ( no disrespect intended)

I'm on the fence.

Personally I think he's lucky that he's standing on the street with a sign and not in a jail cell. Mom could have gone about this differently, but how are we to know she didn't already try other avenues?

A picture says a thousand words, but it doesn't tell the entire tale. All we see is a 13 year old with a sign and a women in a chair having a drink. We don't know the details that led up to this action, we don't know if this was a last resort or if this was the first attempt at discipline.

Personally I would rather embarrass my kids then see them go to jail or juvy, that would be more damaging than what this mom did.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I'm on the fence.

Personally I think he's lucky that he's standing on the street with a sign and not in a jail cell. Mom could have gone about this differently, but how are we to know she didn't already try other avenues?

A picture says a thousand words, but it doesn't tell the entire tale. We don't know the details that led up to this action, we don't know if this was a last resort
or if this was the first attempt at discipline.

Personally I would rather embarrass my kids then see them go to jail or juvy, that would be more damaging than what this mom did.

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:D greenie: Exactly why I say it depends on the circumstances!

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Originally Posted by bushg

I hope that I never make my children be ashamed of who they are. I hope I never say or do anything that makes the world view them with disdain, disgust or fear.

I know what it is to grow up having your fathers / his families failures thrown up in your face. Everytime you do something that is negative, "your just like that bunch".

Look at this young boys face, eyes downcast, wonder how many times the fathers failures have been thrown into this childs face.

Yes, he should be punished for stealing, but I think it could have been done in a more loving way. He needs somebody to wrap their arms around him and show him that even though he did something wrong he is worth loving.

To me this picture does not show love.
I have 3 children and I would never dream of doing something like this to them, and yes we have a few skeletons in our families closet but that is for our families to know, not for the world to judge my children by.

I bet if he stole something in school and the teachers/principal made him stand with this sign (inside school or outside of school) There would be a lawsuit filed lickety split.

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The theme running through this thread is that, we don't know what led up to this picture, that's all we do know. Each of us is making assumptions, possibly based upon our own experiences.

So here are mine;

To take such a dramatic stand of symbolism had to hurt her also.

Maybe this is a final effort of "tough Love" on the mom's part to save her son and possibly the mom's last hope for him. I can also see this type of parent giving her son credit for the good things he accomplished and hugs and much love also. OR, he would have rebelled in a strong way against doing this. She had some control over this child and that means she started teaching him a long time ago.

I feel she wants much better for her child and she probably has a big battle on her hands against peer pressures that she can only imagine.

I say terrific, God bless her. If my scenario is half true I would be proud to call her my friend.

Stringer

His Mom is trying to save him. I respect the lady for that. So what if he is taunted and teased. Maybe that will make him stay home and do his homework instead of roaming the streets and stealing.

I think good. His mother wants to teach him a lesson. I'd my punishment for doing something was humiliation, I wouldn't make the same mistake again. And I'd much rather see parents humiliate their kids for a day to teach a lesson than to hear about how another kid was beat to death or starved for a week or something awful like that.

Interesting enough, I fell upon a show last night, " Lock down behind juvenille jail" I think it was . And I have to say, Mom doing this is far better then what goes on in those jails. The kids were babies, in my mind, but their actions, in jail, are far worse, then some of the adult prisons.

Mom, bless you for loving your son so much, to not want this for your child.

I think it is kind of good. Putting the, 'be with daddy' part could be a little emotional if he misses his father and is a little cruel. I wonder what he thought when someone came by and took a picture of him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izannah

Not to jump on your case or anything but... How easy would it be for YOU right now to just go out and get "some more income," a "better environment," and date a "better" man/woman? (Even if you don't "want" to, but "had" to...how would it be? Someone out there just waiting to hand you a few million, a palatial estate and whatever your equivalent of Brad Pitt would be?)

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I definitely don't rely on anyone to "hand me" anything good in life, I would suspect I would have to work for it. Regardless of your background, location, government, setbacks in life, etc... people have choices. People can make their lives better. You just have to want it. You don't have to be rich, have a mansion, and Brad Pitt to have a good life. Brad Pitt and a jailed father are two extremes by the way.

And if you've worked in the juvenile justice system, I would like to see the stats on the effectiveness of shame as a means of punishment. In many cases, even when corporal punishment is concerned, kids tend to be a bit more bitter, have lower self esteem, and act out more.

Say for example, that kid is standing there holding that sign... he goes to school the next day and kids start making fun of him for stealing, his jailed father, whatever... chances are the kid's going to get defensive, act out. It will no doubt hurt him mentally, his school work might take a turn for the worse, etc. It's a domino effect. There are better ways of handling it.





"Do not let the hero in your soul perish, in lonely frustration for the life you deserved, but have never been able to reach. Check your road and the nature of your battle. The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it's yours.” ~Ayn Rand

I love it! Looks like she took a tough stance, as he is in a tough place.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I love it! Looks like she took a tough stance, as he is in a tough place.

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Agreed Tal, she took a stand, good for her. So what if the kid gets embarrassed, the point is she probably did what she thought was right. AT LEAST she is doing something, unlike so many other parents.

AWESOME!! If he doesn't like being ridiculed he better not break the law again. WAY TO GO MOM!!

This kid doesn't need his mom to only be his friend, he needs her to be a parent. And that is what she is doing, again bless her. She is not physically or mentally abusing him, at 13 he wants to act like a "man", then take it like one.

Stringer

I LOVE IT!! You put a kid in Juvi and he is going to come out worst. This is great he gets to be embarrassed maybe more people should do this. I was Extremely poor growing up and I never stole a Damn thing. I got my @$$ a job when I was 12 and I have been working ever since.

Hey Rick, have you formed an opinion one way or the other as yet?

Stringer

A little embarrassment might just make him a productive citizen yet. Stealing, drug abuse, and gang-banging is just around the corner for many youths unless the parents care enough. She's a good mother for caring. Good for her!

Hi everyone
I know we're all saying best thing for him etc. etc. but there's something not quite right about this picture, I 'm not sure what it is though, it just seems a bit odd that this lad is standing in the gutter making no attempt to run for it, which lets face it most lads would have said in no uncertain terms up yours I'm off.
Mum is not exactly holding him down- now is she- in which case it's something he's decided to do on his own and she's just there for the observation of it, probably saying, "i've got to see this", or such like.

If you look at it from another angle- his Mum has forced him to do this- then lets face it he's not exactly a small lad, what could have been said to him to make him remain stood in the gutter against his will!!

Something just doesn't sit right all the lads I know around that age who I deal with daily, would have given probably a bit of sign lauguage and would not have been seen for dust...
Perhaps I'm just being to analytical

What could have been said? How about "You stand there with that sign or I'm reporting you to the police for stealing." or "Stand there and take your punishment or pack your stuff and leave!" or many other things that would work. Strong kid or not, obviously this mother is a responsible caring mother who puts her foot down, otherwise he wouldn't be standing on the sidewalk with a sign. Nope, I think this is exactly what we think it is.

Okay... for those that think that humiliation is a form of "abuse"--look at it this way:

His "friends"--the crowd of people that he's hanging out with that could get him to steal--are probably going to shun him from this point on.

That is NOT a bad thing. I've seen over and over again where the group of kids is the issue, not the individual kids in the group. The kids are great kids, and smart, for the most part--they just spend too much time trying to impress each other.

So--Mom is standing there, and if you think about it, it's not exactly NON-humilation for HER--her son is a thief and her baby-daddy is in prison. What does that say about HER?

So--she embarrasses the poor kid, and herself by extension. So what? At least she's doing SOMETHING. And she's not beating the kid, and she's not wanting to "sign her rights away because she can't control him". She hasn't given up on him, like so many of the parents we see coming here on AMHD. Just the fact that she's there, with him, to me shows that she loves him, and wants him to do better than his daddy. The fact that she hasn't washed her hands of him and called the cops and sent him to juvy is as good as a hug, in my opinion.

And I bet when the day of standing in the street is done, she DOES give him a hug, and tell him that she loves him, and that she just wants him to do better than she has, and his daddy has, because that's what parents who love their children DO--they want their kids to do better than they have.

I say ---Good for her! In the long run, this won't hurt the kid. Some of my worst punishments growing up were the most humiliating--but guess what? They were also some of the best lessons learned for life situations!

Know what the biggest problem I see with this entire thread is? The fact that ALL of us have judged this situation by one picture, one minute of this family's life. (and yes, I know that's been pointed out previously).

To those that are horrified and think that this is a form of abuse, I have a question for you: if you, personally, saw this happening, would you call CPS? Would you think this is a horrible enough punishment, that will scar the kid for life, that you would call in some form of authorities?

If so--would you try to get more info first, or would you just report what you're seeing, the way you'd (not you personally, but you in general) would call about a parent hitting a child in a shopping mall?

If not--why not? I mean you think this is horrible, awful, terrible, and scarring--why the heck Wouldn't you call the authorities? And if you wouldn't call the authorities, is it really THAT bad?

Great answer Synnen, right on the nose. I wish I could have expressed myself as well as you have. Wonderful, truly wonderful! :)