Hi,
I have an interesting question for your consideration and opinions. But first, here is a little history of the Boy Scouts of America.

Scouting began in England in 1907-08, created by General Robert Baden-Powell. B-P, a 50-year old bachelor at the time, and was one of the few heroes to come out of Britain's Boer War.
The Boy Scouts of America (which also uses the name Scouting/USA) was founded by Chicago publisher William Boyce on February 8, 1910.

The Boy Scout Oath is:
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

"A federal judge ruled that the Pentagon can no longer spend money to prepare a Virginia military base for use by a national quadrennial Boy Scout jamboree that attracts 40,000 Scouts and leaders, plus 300,000 parents and spectators. Although the jamboree is a 25-year-old institution, the ACLU persuaded an activist judge to ban it in the future because the Boy Scouts pledge to do their duty to God and country."

The above quoted from: http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2005/s...psrsept05.html

This is just one of many examples of the work of the ACLU.
Do you agree, or disagree, that the Boy Scouts not be allowed to have their National Jamboree on a military base because they pledge to do their duty to "God"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

"A federal judge ruled that the Pentagon can no longer spend money to prepare a Virginia military base for use by a national quadrennial Boy Scout jamboree that attracts 40,000 Scouts and leaders, plus 300,000 parents and spectators. Although the jamboree is a 25-year-old institution, the ACLU persuaded an activist judge to ban it in the future because the Boy Scouts pledge to do their duty to God and country."

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This quote shows the spin that was used to demonize the court's actions. The judge said ONLY that the military budget could not be used. This is consistent with Separation of Church and State. But the article goes on to claim that the ACLU got it banned in the future. That is spewing misinformation. There is no ban on the jamborees, just a ban against having it on a military base and using military funds to support it.

By the way, I am a former scout and scoutleader. However, I am disgusted with the BSA's intolerance toward certain life styles. In my view, the BSA is paying the price for that intolerance.

Scott<>

It is so important that the scouts keep the moral values and ethics that they are so well known for. They are a great group.

And the real problem is that most soldiers hold the same concepts.
Now perhaps a military budget should not be used for the event, but I am sure the scouts and/or the military personal privately could raise the funds.

But you are right, this is a very good case of extreme activist judges not ruling on law, but ruling on personal prejustices and bias. Because of the scouts moral values and faith, they are a target for thoses that dispise such values.

I would say that those who just don't like the group, and wish to have a group that would be accepting of lower values and morals, should start their own groups. There are within certain churches, groups of youth based on similar systems but working outside the scouts because they are even more strict on teachings and values.

But too many people ( often without chidren or even an interst in the scouts) merely prefer to attack a group that has been effective as they are for years. They don't want to work at making a group better, or work within a groups guildelines, but prefer to destroy. If they would start a group and it is really that much better, guess what they would take over all the kids over time. Guess destroying something good is just easier.

HI,
Thank you for your opinions.
The one about being "disgusted" with the Boy Scouts due to intolerance toward certain lifestyles is indicative of some's feelings. I applaud the Boy Scouts of America for "sticking to their guns", of sticking with their morals and beliefs. Certain lifestyles are trying to become the "norm", by allowing actions that have never been allowed before.
Changing American morals and values because of any minority groups will, as I have often stated, be closely examined by the majority of the American public. Hats off to the Boy Scouts.
Destroying "something good" is the goal of most of this, meaning destroying traditional beliefs. Not allowing the word "God" to be used in an oath on public property (such as a military base) is the work of these minorities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But you are right, this is a very good case of extreme activist judges not ruling on law, but ruling on personal prejustices and bias.

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Nope, wrong again. The doctrine of separation of church and state is sufficient legal justification for this ruling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fredg

I applaud the Boy Scouts of America for "sticking to their guns", of sticking with their morals and beliefs. Certain lifestyles are trying to become the "norm", by allowing actions that have never been allowed before.

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The paradox here is that the values that the Scouts have promoted all these years are what they themselves are turning their backs on. As a scout I was taught brotherhood, I was taught to respect other people's beliefs and to applaud diversity. I was taught tolerance of people who were different then I.

Yet when a scout who clearly embodied all these values they promote, a scout who had attained the highest honors offered by the organization acknowleged his biological imperative and admitted his homosexuality, this organization turned intolerant and expelled him. For no other reason then his sexuality. That was what turned many people against the organization. That's when schools and other public places started refusing to provide space for them. Note, that the Girl Scouts, an organization with similar values, morals and ethics was not treated similarly.

I won't get into a debate about homsexuality.

Scott<>

I find it quite sad that the ACLU is doing that. I see why they are but the scouts promote the development of good skills and values in children. My kid will probably get involved in the scouts and fake the allegiance to God - just like the majority of part-time christians.

Hi,
Thank you, NeedKarma, for your post.
I do wish your child the very best in the Boy Scouts. Who knows? Maybe he will get to know what the oath really means, including the beliefs in all of it.

You're welcome. We 're open to all sorts of things. If he decides that he wants to be a regular church goer then I'm behind him all the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

I do wish your child the very best in the Boy Scouts. Who knows? Maybe he will get to know what the oath really means, including the beliefs in all of it.

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What the oath really means:
The Meaning of the Boy Scout Oath
Excerpted from page 45-46, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th ed,
(#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2
and from page 420-421, Webelos Scout Book, 1998 edition,
(#33108), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3108-7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before you pledge yourself to any oath or promise, you must know what it means. The paragraphs that follow will help you understand the meaning of the Scout Oath.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On my honor.. .
By giving your word, you are promising to be guided by the ideals of the Scout Oath.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . I will do my best.. .
Try hard to live up to the points of the Scout Oath. Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . To do my duty to God.. .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . And my country.. .
Help keep the United States a strong and fair nation by learning about our system of government and your responsibilities as a citizen and future voter.

America is made up of countless families and communities. When you work to improve your community and your home, you are serving your country. Natural resources are another important part of America's heritage worthy of your efforts to understand, protect, and use wisely. What you do can make a real difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . And to obey the Scout Law;.. .
The twelve points of the Scout Law are guidelines that can lead you toward wise choices. When you obey the Scout Law, other people will respect you for the way you live, and you will respect yourself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . To help other people at all times;.. .
There are many people who need you. Your cheerful smile and helping hand will ease the burden of many who need assistance. By helping out whenever possible, you are doing your part to make this a better world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . To keep myself physically strong,
Take care of your body so that it will serve you well for an entire lifetime. That means eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep, and exercising regularly to build strength and endurance. It also means avoiding harmful drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and anything else that can harm your health.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . Mentally awake,
Develop your mind both in the classroom and outside of school. Be curious about everything around you, and work hard to make the most of your abilities. With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. . And morally straight.
To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets take a look at some of the points here:
-Measure your achievements against your own high standards and don't be influenced by peer pressure or what other people do.
-by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
-With an inquiring attitude and the willingness to ask questions, you can learn much about the exciting world around you and your role in it.
-You should respect and defend the rights of all people.

I believe in what this oath says. And it sickens me that, as I pointed out, the organization has corrupted this oath by their own intolerance.

Scott<>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I find it quite sad that the ACLU is doing that. I see why they are but the scouts promote the development of good skills and values in children. My kid will probably get involved in the scouts and fake the allegiance to God - just like the majority of part-time christians.

---

I don't see a need to "fake" an allegiance to God unless one is an atheist or maybe an agnostic. Anyone else would seem to have a belief in some god. Of course, there might be someone who may believe in a god but doesn't want to pledge allegiance to them. I guess they would have to fake it.

::taking tongue out of cheek::

Scott<>

Hi,
ScottGem has made many, many posts to this thread.
Bigotry?
I guess that's a word he uses after someone stands up for the rights of the majority, the Boy Scout's decision to ban a scout of a particular practice, and society's minorities' views.
I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.
ScottGem does have some good points, as usual, but some are also completely "far fetched", describing what he feels is a "bigot". Using his thinking, many, many Americans are "bigots", because their feelings and opinions are different from his!
I object to being called a "bigot".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.

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Have you ever been the minority anywhere or do you stay close to home?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
ScottGem has made many, many posts to this thread.
Bigotry?
I guess that's a word he uses after someone stands up for the rights of the majority, the Boy Scout's decision to ban a scout of a particular pratice, and society's minorities' views.
I do not agree with minorities changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority, and especially of a majority group that has deep-rooted traditions.
ScottGem does have some good points, as usual, but some are also completely "far fetched", describing what he feels is a "bigot". Using his thinking, many, many Americans are "bigots", becuase their feelings and opinions are different from his!
I object to being called a "bigot".

---

If you object to being called a bigot then stop acting like one. According to Merriam Webster:

Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

I can point to several statements you have made (some you have retracted) that show your bigotry. The first (that I saw) was in the 'What Does God look like' thread. In this thread, you applaud the BSA for "sticking to their guns". Yet one of their "guns" is "-You should respect and defend the rights of all people." So explain to me how their intolerance towards homosexuality is "sticking to their guns"? By applauding them for their intolerance you are displaying your own bigotry.

Talk to us more of the "rights of the majority". Does being in the majority allow prejudice against and oppression of the minority? That's not in keeping with so called "Amercian Values", that's bigotry.

Show us where a minority group was "changing the morals, values, and traditions of the majority"? If we are talking about the Eagle Scout who was banned, by all accounts he was a model Boy Scout. There was never any hint of his behaving inappropriately towards any other scout. He simply chose to acknowledge his biology. How did that try to change the "morals, values and traditions" of an organization that preaches respect and tolerance for all? Seems to me that was very much in step with those "morals, values and traditions".

I don't dispute that the BSA was within their rights to ban the kid. But I do, vehemently, dispute that doing so was consistent with the lessons they have taught for close to a century. I think I have more than adequately proven that point using THEIR own words.

So show me what points I have made that are "far-fetched". Show me, given the definition of bigot, how my describing your words, doesn't meet that definition.

As you may have gathered you hit a sore point with me. I detest bigotry and intolerance. I detest the idea that the majority can lord it over the minority just because it is the majority. A better man than I said it best; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That doesn't mean majority rule. That means respecting the rights of EVERYONE!

Scott<>

Hi guys,

It seems that scotty forgot about the Lemon Test. Just because the boyscouts do make reference to God, their purpose is very secular. They teach important things that all young men should know. The government money would not be promoting any religious affiliation. Freddy is right that the ACLU strategizes to locate radical judges and than plot with someone to make something out of nothing. It happened in the scope monkey trial. Before the trial the ACLU was advertising for someone to teach evolution in science class, a teacher said he would do it for them. The teacher was J.T. Scopes, and the ACLU pretty much set it up to win. They follow tactcs that do not support democracy. They don't lobby to win the votes, instead they get what they want from radical judges who legislate from the bench, and not speaking out for the people. It has happened time and time again. Every now and then they support a right-winger to further their claim that they aren't radicals. If you believe that, believe Baldwin their founder who said,"I am for socialism, disarmambent, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an insrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownersip of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by tose who produce wealth. Communism is the goal!" You can find this quote in the 1192 policy guide of the ACLU: policy 4d, p.7, and polic 4g, p.9. Freddy, you are completely right!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Have you ever been the minority anywhere or do you stay close to home?

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BTW, I actulally am a minority. I have felt discrimination in my life, and I still stick up for the majority, because that's what democracy is all about. Socialists may not agree, but it's the american way. DEMOCRACY!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

BTW, i actulally am a minority. I have felt discrimination in my life, and i still stick up for the majority, because that's what democracy is all about. socialists may not agree, but it's the american way. DEMOCRACY!

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As you probably know the question was posed to Fred but just out of curiosity, in what way are you a minority?

I am a mormon, which at first doesn't make for much of a minority, but consider this: Most christian denominations don't accept us as christians for reasons beyond me. I live in the bible belt, and have received much discrimination from various religions, but primarily baptists. Not to say they are bad, it just turns out many of them hate us. The ideas that these other "christian" people propagate about us make people hate us. It's marginal compared to others, but it's definitely there. I don't claim that I have felt what some that belong to minority races do, however, I must add that my heritage as a mormon is saturated with prejudices against us. The Missouri extermination order which permitted the murder of any mormon. Persecution that started in New England and never left even after the migration to Utah. Much of the discrimination however is from christians, though I have received some minor things from a couple of atheists that I know, primarily because of the rumors they have heard about us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

Just because the boyscouts do make reference to God, their purpose is very secular. They teach important things that all young men should know. The government money would not be promoting any religious affiliation.

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I was wondering if anyone would catch that one weak link. And I admit it is a weak link. But apparently a federal judge felt, that even though the BSA is a secular organization, its insistence that its member believe in God, was enough.

As for the rest of your diatribe against the ACLU. The following is from the ACLU's mission statement (http://www.aclu.org/about/aboutmain.cfm):

The ACLU is our nation's guardian of liberty. We work daily in courts, legislatures and communities to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States. Our job is to conserve America's original civic values - the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

I couldn't find any place to confirm your quote, not that I deny it, but I would like to see the context.

I wonder what you think of the fact that the Pledge of Allegiance was originally written to promote the ideals of a utopian socialist?

As for democracy being the American way, I beg to differ. The United States is a federal REPUBLIC. It is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a democracy. Our founding fathers feared democracy since it's the rule of the majority. They feared that majority rule can become oppressive and tyrannical. That's what they designed a republic and built in protections for individual rights (the rights the ACLU protects) into the Constitution.

Scott<>

Steve,

Well that certainly sucks. The baptists there really have no right in discriminating against anyone - that's a good example but the hypocrisy of being a 'good' christian. I was a Big Brother for 6 years and my Little Brother's mom was a Jehovah Witness. Other than not being able to give the little guy presents it was not an issue at all.

Now you are correct in that being a mormon really isn't much of a minority example. I was looking more like landing on an island when you are white and all around you are black folks who speak a different language. That teaches you to see the other side of the issue (depending of the outcome of the experience). I had the opportunity to backpack through Europe years ago. Since I'm bilingual in English and French then there was no problem in England and France but when I missed a train stop in Italy and got out in a very small village at 2am then I said "now the adventure begins" as no one spoke english. Good times, good times.

I would add needkarma, that I have also experienced being the minority while I spent my mission in the Philippines for two straight years. This would probably play a more significant role in my experience because there I was certainly a minority in every way even considering the fact that I speak filipino (tagalog) fluently. As for Scotty, most people when they say america is a democracy they mean republican democracy. Sorry for not completely specifying what I meant. I assumed everyone else would assume so. You all know what happens when we assume I guess.

What are we teaching our youth today when we ostosize and condemn those among us who are a little different? I don't give a rats behind if you believe in God or your baby toe!what difference does it make.you mean to tell me that gay people can't be good human beings,and since when does any one person have a right to judge another.The worst part is we pass the poison of intolerance on to another generation.When are we going to wake up and at least try to do the right thing and stop teaching hatred to our kids.Boy Scouts should be the shinig example of the way we raise our male children not a politically motivated witch hunt to perpetrate the practice of inequallity and hatred. :mad:

A little more vehement that I would have put it, but on the right track.

What is all this reference to the "separation of church and state?" Such a doctrine never existed. The phrase "separation of church and state" is nowhere to be found in the constitution. The first amendment reads, in part: "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof . Those who make court cases out of this amendment seem to conveiniently overlook the latter half of this sentence. To deny the Boy Scouts the use of a military facility because of their pledge to do their duty "to God", to declare the phrase "under God" from the pledge of allegiance unconstitutional, to prohibit prayer in schools, to prohibit displays of the ten commandments, nativity scenes or any other religious symbols on public property are all violations of the 1st amendment which guarantees all Americans "the free exercise (of religion) thereof." Although we as a society cannot compel our fellow citizens to suscribe to or accept any set of beliefs, we likewise cannot deny any American the right to worship or acknowledge God anywhere or anytime (s)he wants. Nor can we deny any group equal access to any public facilities because of any doctrine to which they may adhere based on any allegiance to God and the moral beliefs that may arise out of such allegiance. If, instead of the Boy Scouts, a group of young people advocating Gay Rights wanted to use the military facility in question, would the ACLU fight to stop that? We can't have it both ways, folks. Either it's tolerance for all viewpoints and beliefs, right and left alike, or we become a police state that is totally intolerant of anything other than what those in power want, a la George Orwell's hypothetical world as described in his novel 1984 . Personally I'll vote for tolerance for all beliefs and attitudes. I think gay is wrong, you think gay is right. I'll carry my sign down the street and you carry yours down that same street right alongside me. That's what America is all about!

You are correct that the phrase does not appear in the Constitution. However, that doesn't mean the doctrine is any less real nor does it mean the founding fathers didn't believe in and subscribe to it. I found a very good site (http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/tnpidx.htm) that makes a very strong case for the doctrine.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, but there is one place where you go too far; "we likewise cannot deny any American the right to worship or acknowledge God anywhere or anytime (s)he wants.". To allow ANY group to use public facilities and public money to promote their way of worship is infringing on other group's rights to worship the way they want.

Also your apparent antipathy towards the ACLU shows through. What makes you think the ACLU wouldn't protest if public funds were used to support a Gay Rights convention? The analogy doesn't hold completely since Gay Rights is a lifestyle, not a religious issue. If the organization were Gays for Jesus (I have no idea if that is a real group or not) I would expect the ACLU to protest just as loudly.

I agree with you that tolerance must be universal, which is one of the reasons the BSA got such a black eye over their hypocritical display of intolerance. But the court's issue was the use of public funds and facilities, not the right of the organization to conduct its event.

Scott<>

I wholeheartedly agree. Very good comments. Liberal judges are chosen by the ACLU, for their own purposes.

Hi,
"separation of church and state" are the words used by judges, selected intentionally, by the ACLU and other organizations, to change laws.
These Precedents were set by "their" judges. That is fact.

Let's see. The Boy Scouts kicked out a boy because he was raised as a atheist. They also ban gays from joining. Since this is a private organization with no public funding they can do this but I'd like some one to show me where this isn't religious discrimination in the first case and outright homophobia bigotry in the second. The message being send to the young membership is that if your different or don't have the same views as the majority that you're less of a person and we don't associate with "lesser persons".

Intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and homophobia are what's being taught here. I was a Scout many years ago and while they still had God in their creed I don't recall them banning any one for a belief or lack thereof. This turn to the right disturbs me and the fact that it's being taught to young boys disturbs me ever more.

This is why the BSA can discriminate, they are a private organization. Fact, there was a 1992 study done by K. Freud and R.I. Watson that found that homosexual males are three times more likely than hetero's to engage in acts of molestation with boys. I am not saying that gay people are child molestors, but with studies like this the BSA is held accountable for what takes place within their organization. If a kid is molested and the BSA ignored studies like this, they will get sued for millions of dollars. However, the most important reason that the ACLU is wrong is this: What if a church doesn't advocate homosexuals? Is the government going to force that church to have gay clergy? That's stupid. HOw about the ACLU, do they have any leaders who are religious right-wingers? NO!! They would never give a top position to someone who doesn't believe what they do. I guess they are discriminating against me!! Did any of yo know that the ACLU had the BSA removed from using schools for meetings etc in Chicago, San Diego, and other places. They are removing a program that teaches basic principles to young boys that can help them throughout their lives. Water safety, first aid, environmental science, gun safety, knife safety, how to build a fire, etc. They teach discipline and maturity to their youth. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT!! So they exclude gay people from their leadership, it's a liability issue, they can't do it and for some reason you guys cannot comprehend that. My church doesn't advocate homosexuality, as a matter of fact, if they have no desire to repent of the sin (I understand you don't agree with this, I;m entitled to my opinion) they are excommunicated. HOwever, so are adulterers that don't want to repent. Are we wrong for this, these people don't follow our precepts. Also, we let them back into the church if they so desire at a later time. It's not discrimination, it's personal beliefs.

Liberals always ride my butt for not "listening to their opinions" (which is true, but there is hypocrisy in that statement). Some of you believe homosexuality is OK, but some of us don't. Is our opinion not worth respecting? I have a lot of liberal friends, and even though I am very hard headed with their opinions, I still respect their opinions because they know what they are talking about. They also have that respect for me. They are also as hard headed as I am with liberalism. To my point: The BSA has their opinion, and it's not their fault nor problem that some of you get so "offended" by their opinions. Get over it! They are entitled to that with or without the Constitution!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Let's see. The Boy Scouts kicked out a boy because he was raised as a atheist. They also ban gays from joining. Since this is a private organization with no public funding they can do this but I'd like some one to show me where this isn't religious discrimination in the first case and outright homophobia bigotry in the second. The message being send to the young membership is that if your different or don't have the same views as the majority that you're less of a person and we don't associate with "lesser persons".

Intolerance, bigotry, discrimination and homophobia are what's being taught here. I was a Scout many years ago and while they still had God in their creed I don't recall them banning any one for a belief or lack thereof. This turn to the right disturbs me and the fact that it's being taught to young boys disturbs me ever more.

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Speedball, question: I would like a source for that reference you made to the BSA kicking out a boy for not believing in God. I seemed to have missed that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi,
"separation of church and state" are the words used by judges, selected intentionally, by the ACLU and other organizations, to change laws.
These Precedents were set by "their" judges. That is fact.

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No its not fact. The doctrine of separation of church and state has exisited since before the constitution was ratified. The ACLU has founded in 1920. So that blows a large part of your theory.

Judges interpret laws, that's what they do. Precedent is a large part of that system. Its not to "change" laws its to intepret them in terms of the Constitution. There have been bad precedents as well as good ones. Some precedents were set in the context of current times and have been changed as times change.

That blows the rest of your alleged fact.

Scott<>

My sentiments exactly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

This is why the BSA can discriminate, they are a private organization. Fact, there was a 1992 study done by K. Freud and R.I. Watson that found that homosexual males are three times more likely than hetero's to engage in acts of molestation with boys. I am not saying that gay people are child molestors, but with studies like this the BSA is held accountable for what takes place within their organization. If a kid is molested and the BSA ignored studies like this, they will get sued for millions of dollars. However, the most important reason that the ACLU is wrong is this: What if a church doesn't advocate homosexuals? Is the government going to force that church to have gay clergy? That's stupid. HOw about the ACLU, do they have any leaders who are religious right-wingers? NO!!! they would never give a top postition to someone who doesn't believe what they do. I guess they are discriminating against me!!! Did any of yo know that the ACLU had the BSA removed from using schools for meetings etc in Chicago, San Diego, and other places. They are removing a program that teaches basic principles to young boys that can help them throughout their lives. Water safety, first aid, environmental science, gun safety, knife safety, how to build a fire, etc. They teach discipline and maturity to their youth. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT!!!!!!!!!! So they exclude gay people from their leadership, it's a liability issue, they can't do it and for some reason you guys cannot comprehend that. My church doesn't advocate homosexuality, as a matter of fact, if they have no desire to repent of the sin (i understand you don't agree with this, i;m entitled to my opinion) they are excommunicated. HOwever, so are adulterers that don't want to repent. Are we wrong for this, these people don't follow our precepts. Also, we let them back into the church if they so desire at a later time. It's not discrimination, it's personal beliefs.

Liberals always ride my butt for not "listening to their opinions" (which is true, but there is hypocrisy in that statement). Some of you believe homosexuality is ok, but some of us don't. Is our opinion not worth respecting?! I have a lot of liberal friends, and even though i am very hard headed with their opinions, i still respect their opinions because they know what they are talking about. They also have that respect for me. They are also as hard headed as i am with liberalism. To my point: The BSA has their opinion, and it's not their fault nor problem that some of you get so "offended" by their opinions. Get over it! They are entitled to that with or without the Constitution!!!!!!!!!!!

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Exactly, they have the right to discriminate because they are a private organization. So PUBLIC funds and facilities should NOT be used to support their discrimination!

You talk about American values. One of the most cherished is 'innocent until proven guilty'. Yet you are ready to discriminate against a gay person (and I'm talking specifically about kids not the adults) because they are more likely to molest. That's garbage! If a kid (or even an adult) wanted to continue to be part of the Scouts they would be LESS likely do anything that would get them kicked out.

I don't believe homosexuality is "OK". I believe, on the basis of scientific evidence, that it is not a choice. Are we to condemn people who are left handed or blonde or brown-eyed?

Are lot of your arguments are farcial and I won't bother responding to them. I respect your opinion about the ACLU. There is reasonable basis for it because of their over zealous actions. I don't agree with a lot of things they do. But you miss the whole point of the BSA issue. As I said they are entitled to restrict their membership. But go back to the post where I posted the oath. To do what they have done when their OWN literature says what it says is the height of hypocrisy.

Scott<>

Very, Very good.

Hi, Again, to ScottGem,
I did NOT say that activist judges "invented" the words "separation of church and state".
I DID say that the ACLU seeks out activist and liberal judges to USE those words in changing and creating laws to get what they want.
These new laws then become precedents for more activist judges to use later.
This is not a theory, it's truth. If you wish to research laws, when they were made, and who made them for the ACLU and other minority organizations, it's well known that activist judges made them; with the ACLU seeking out those judges for decisions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Exactly, they have the right to discriminate because they are a private organization. So PUBLIC funds and facilities should NOT be used to support their discrimination!

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Tell that to all the poor children downtown Chicago who were being taught things that would help them gain the self-esteem, and desire to move beyond what they were born into. Now instead of the BSA, to find "famliy" they will turn to gangs and what not.I'm sure they appreciate it. I don't think the Gay/Straight alliance would let someone who doesn't like homosexuality in their leadership, yet schools SPONSOR them. THey are discriminating against me, so I guess they should get kicked out of schools.

Quote:

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I don't believe homosexuality is "OK". I believe, on the basis of scientific evidence, that it is not a choice. Are we to condemn people who are left handed or blonde or brown-eyed?

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LOL, "you are killing me smalls." (Sandlot) Give me your "scientific evidence" that they don't have a choice. THat's bull crap. THey all ave a choice. That's the single most prepostorous thing I have ever heard. Cheryl Swoops of the WNBA is a homosexual, and she herself admits that gayness is a choice. She said that she if it wasn't for falling in love with her coach, she would be straight. People aren't born in the wrong bodies. There is NO biological evidence and you cannot find any unless it's from some gay organization. Also from a religious point of view both christian and jew use the book of genesis. Do you actually believe God can screw up and put a woman in a man's body? It's unbelievable! Genesis said GOd created man in his own image. Do you think God is gay? That's even more unbelievable. You give me non-partisan evidence of this. I'd like to see it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

Tell that to all the poor children downtown Chicago who were being taught things that would help them gain the self-esteem, and desire to move beyond what they were born into. Now instead of the BSA, to find "famliy" they will turn to gangs and what not.I'm sure they appreciate it. I don't think the Gay/Straight alliance would let someone who doesn't like homosexuality in their leadership, yet schools SPONSOR them. THey are discriminating against me, so i guess they should get kicked out of schools.

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You keep throwing in peripheral issues rather then directly addressing the factual issues. A typical tactic of people trying to support an emotional argument rather than a factual one.

When many public facilities (many voluntarily) chose to not allow the BSA to use their facilities, the slack was taken by private facilities. Churches, fraternal organizations and others kept troops going which fine. I'm sure there are facilities in Chicago where BSA troops continue to meet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SSchultz0956

LOL, "you are killing me smalls." (Sandlot) Give me your "scientific evidence" that they don't have a choice. THat's bull crap. THey all ave a choice. That's the single most prepostorous thing i have ever heard. Cheryl Swoops of the WNBA is a homosexual, and she herself admits that gayness is a choice. She said that she if it wasn't for falling in love with her coach, she would be straight. People aren't born in the wrong bodies. There is NO biological evidence and you cannot find any unless it's from some gay organization. Also from a religious point of view both christian and jew use the book of genesis. Do you actually believe God can screw up and put a woman in a man's body?! It's unbelievable! Genesis said GOd created man in his own image. Do you think God is gay? That's even more unbelievable. You give me non-partisan evidence of this. I'd like to see it!

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Try this one, just from some quick research.
http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/WS350/spr0...%20biology.htm

Again you try to twist the issue. You confuse homosexuality with transsexuality. Homosexuality is the attraction of one person to members of their same sex. Transsexuality is the issue of a someone being born into the wrong body. And there have been documented cases of that. Did "God screw up" in those cases?

Scott<>

Schultz,
You ask, "Speedball, question: I would like a source for that reference you made to the BSA kicking out a boy for not believing in God. I seemed to have missed that one.

The New York Times reported on November 3, 2002, that a Seattle-area Eagle Scout named Darrell was asked to reconsider his outspoken atheism or leave the Boy Scouts.




Question 1: What do Mormons, Islamic extremists, Scientologists, Druids and hypocrites all have in common?

Answer: They can all join the Scout Association – but humanists,(Atheists) can’t.

Question 2: What do paedophiles and atheists have in common?

Answer: They are the only two groups automatically excluded from volunteering in the Scout Association.
Why are atheists so hated? That’s a difficult question to answer. Regardless of why someone becomes an atheist, the mere fact that they don’t bother to accept such a popular belief like theism represents a fundamental challenge to all theists’ belief and religion. Just by living and getting by day-to-day, atheists demonstrate that belief in gods isn’t needed to enjoy life, to succeed in life, and to make life better.

What is the Boy Scouts of America policy on gays? - It's hard to determine exactly what the policy is, since it is not stated in the BSA Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, or Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership, nor in any leader manual or handbooks that boys and parents use, nor in any training course syllabus, nor on any application. The earliest written record was in an internal memo dated 1978; it first reached public attention when Tim Curran sued the BSA in 1980; and it was discussed in Scouting magazine twice only in 1992. It appears in various briefing and position papers for BSA internal use only. The closest thing to a National Council or Executive Board policy statement was a request for those who supported the lawsuits to stand.
In defending their stance, National Council spokesmen usually quote from the Scout Oath:
"to keep myself morally straight"
and the Scout Law:
"A Scout is Clean."
They state their support of "traditional family values" and leaders as "moral role models." The National Council Boy Scouts of America gives out the message to the public, scouters and adult leaders that people who are gay do not have family values and don't live moral lives. The BSA places all gay people into one category, negating the diversity and uniqueness of people who are gay. They claim through their logic that there is such a thing as a gay way of believing. There are conservative, liberal and moderate people who are gay. They come from all walks of life and represent every segment of society. Would they also use that same logic when describing heterosexual people? They espouse the belief that gays have inferior values then their own. The National Council Boy Scouts of America has not defined what they mean when they use the term "family values."
The BSA practice is to deny registration to any "known or avowed" homosexual. In fact they have dismissed gays, children of gay or lesbian parents, bisexuals, celibate homosexuals, and suspected homosexuals. While the stance is apparently "don't ask, don't tell," they do act on anonymous tips and "common community knowledge" and have carried on intrusive investigations



"This is why the BSA can discriminate." I like the way you started that post and discriminate they certainly do. I notice thatyou have no defense against the charge of religious discrimination and homosexual bigotry. Is this because you were raised in a household that condones religious discrimination and gay bigotry or did you pick it up later in life?
Inquiring minds want to know! Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredg

Hi, Again, to ScottGem,
I did NOT say that activist judges "invented" the words "separation of church and state".
I DID say that the ACLU seeks out activist and liberal judges to USE those words in changing and creating laws to get what they want.
These new laws then become precedents for more activist judges to use later.
This is not a theory, it's truth. If you wish to research laws, when they were made, and who made them for the ACLU and other minority organizations, it's well known that activist judges made them; with the ACLU seeking out those judges for decisions.

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Ok, I apologize for misinterpreting your original remarks. I agree with you that the ACLU tries to have their lawsuits heard by judges they believe will be friendly to their cause. But that's not just restricted to the ACLU. Why do you think that Bush is trying to stack the Supreme Court? Any organizatin makes the same attempts. A judiciary is supposed to be impartial, judging only on the application of the law. That this doesn't always happen is obvious. Why should you vilify the ACLU for doing what anyone would do in the same circumstances?

Scott<>

Tom,
Well said! I'm glad someone else here is showing factual information rather then trying to obfuscate the real issue, that the BSA is hypocritical in that they practice discrimination in violation of their own published values.

Scott<>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Schultz,
You ask, "Speedball, question: I would like a source for that reference you made to the BSA kicking out a boy for not believing in God. I seemed to have missed that one.

The New York Times reported on November 3, 2002, that a Seattle-area Eagle Scout named Darrell was asked to reconsider his outspoken atheism or leave the Boy Scouts.




Question 1: What do Mormons, Islamic extremists, Scientologists, Druids and hypocrites all have in common?

Answer: They can all join the Scout Association – but humanists,(Atheists) can’t.

Question 2: What do paedophiles and atheists have in common?

Answer: They are the only two groups automatically excluded from volunteering in the Scout Association.
Why are atheists so hated? That’s a difficult question to answer. Regardless of why someone becomes an atheist, the mere fact that they don’t bother to accept such a popular belief like theism represents a fundamental challenge to all theists’ belief and religion. Just by living and getting by day-to-day, atheists demonstrate that belief in gods isn’t needed to enjoy life, to succeed in life, and to make life better.

What is the Boy Scouts of America policy on gays? - It's hard to determine exactly what the policy is, since it is not stated in the BSA Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, or Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership, nor in any leader manual or handbooks that boys and parents use, nor in any training course syllabus, nor on any application. The earliest written record was in an internal memo dated 1978; it first reached public attention when Tim Curran sued the BSA in 1980; and it was discussed in Scouting magazine twice only in 1992. It appears in various briefing and position papers for BSA internal use only. The closest thing to a National Council or Executive Board policy statement was a request for those who supported the lawsuits to stand.
In defending their stance, National Council spokesmen usually quote from the Scout Oath:
"to keep myself morally straight"
and the Scout Law:
"A Scout is Clean."
They state their support of "traditional family values" and leaders as "moral role models." The National Council Boy Scouts of America gives out the message to the public, scouters and adult leaders that people who are gay do not have family values and don't live moral lives. The BSA places all gay people into one category, negating the diversity and uniqueness of people who are gay. They claim through their logic that there is such a thing as a gay way of believing. There are conservative, liberal and moderate people who are gay. They come from all walks of life and represent every segment of society. Would they also use that same logic when describing heterosexual people? They espouse the belief that gays have inferior values then their own. The National Council Boy Scouts of America has not defined what they mean when they use the term "family values."
The BSA practice is to deny registration to any "known or avowed" homosexual. In fact they have dismissed gays, children of gay or lesbian parents, bisexuals, celibate homosexuals, and suspected homosexuals. While the stance is apparently "don't ask, don't tell," they do act on anonymous tips and "common community knowledge" and have carried on intrusive investigations



"This is why the BSA can discriminate." I like the way you started out that post and discriminate they certainly do. I notice thatyou have no defense against the charge of religious discrimination and homosexual bigotry. Is this because you were raised in a household that condones religious discrimination and gay bigotry or did you pick it up later in life?
Inquiring minds wanna know!! Tom

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WHY on earth do list mormons with islamic extremist, druids, etc. Are you calling us mormons hypocrites? You are obviously insane and you are using the same generalizations that people like you say you despise. Good job, calling us mormons hypocrites basically destroyed any creditibility you had with me.