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Originally Posted by Synnen

Skell

It's not so much that I think that owning a gun would help me. I do, however, think that the fact that the ordinary citizen can own a gun DOES stop it from being worse than it is. And, as I say, I'm paranoid....I fully believe that our government is heading for collapse.

The big thing, for me, is that the government already controls too much here. I don't think people are REALLY so stupid that they need the government to hold their hands on everything. Wait...actually, people probably ARE that stupid.

As it is...our freedom of speech is being threatened by people who don't know when the hell to shut up.

Our right to bear arms is being threatened by people who hold a grudge against the world because somehow or another, they didn't get what they thought they were "entitled" to.

I hate the idea that the parents of the students who died so tragically this week will sue the school for not locking down campus, even though it was the best decision they could make with the information that they had. I hate even more that they'll probably win.

I'm all for gun control...please don't get me wrong. It SHOULD be harder to purchase a weapon than it is. The problem that I have...and I'm sure it's the problem others have as well, is that once you start putting in controls, you're on a slippery slope. Our government has a habit of doing things to propogate it's own power, whether or not it's for the good of the people.

I'm probably getting incoherent at this point, as it's midnight and I should be in bed.

I want you all to know, though, that I'm really enjoying this conversation, and hope that my arguments are taken in that spirit, and not as a personal attack against anyone's opinion. I've had a few lightbulbs go off over my head over the last few days, and have really done a lot of thinking about what people have posted.

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I see your point completely Synnen and appreciate your concerns. I think your concerns are concerns that many have when any new law is passed. There will always be a group of people, whether it be the majority or minority, that are not happy about it. In this case it appears that it would be the majority. And it shouldn't be the minority that prevails. No way. But sometimes things are done that the majority don't approve of.

I also agree that your government control too much. I think ours does as well but perhaps to a lesser extent. I also think that you are subject to propaganda to a greater extent than you realise. Is it reasonable to assume that unless you actively seek it in the USA you get very very little, if any at all, news and current affairs about anywhere else in the world? Unless it is a major event like war, mass killings etc. In other words you don't really know what else is happening outside the USA because it isn't shown to you through your media outlets. Therefore all you know is all you have ever known? All you guys have known is the right to bear arms and that is all it should be. You aren't aware of other options, especially if politicians see them as unpopular options to the public opinion? It is sort of bred into you guys that the only way is the way it is now.

See down here we are fed news from all over the world. I can tell you current events taking place in the US. I can tell you what Hilary Clinton's latest policies are, I can tell you who won out of the Yankees and Red Sox, I can tell you what is happening in the UK, Germany, France etc. Where as my conversation with many Americans whilst traveling the world indicated to me that they don't really know anything outside of the cocoon they live in. I had to explain to a person from LA where Sydney was. A city that hosted the Olympic Games for pete's sake. He said he'd heard of it but never really had learnt too much about it.

Sorry to get off track but I think as you say, your governments overpower creates thinking amongst people that change is bad. And politicians are scared to change things in case people learn too much and start to form there own opinions. And that doesn't apply to everyone as just from being here at AMHD I can see that so many are highly intelligent people who know a whole lot about the world and its issues. I'm more talking the masses. It's the masses who just don't seem to know. And as we know it is the masses that will win out.

Im really enjoying this conversation too and I would never take anything to heart or as a personal attack. I would like to think the same would apply to everyone. I also get concerned that people see it as an exercise in American bashing because I am aware it does happen unjustly. This isn't the case here. It is more two different cultures (but also so alike) trying to understand each others views on somehting that are so vastly different (these days) in our respective countries.

I would like to hear what someone from the UK thinks about all this. There police don't even carry guns I don't think.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Skell:

Do you see how the insurgents in Iraq can stymie the most powerful military force in the world? They do it with small arms and very little organization. That could happen here.

The time to get a gun, is when they want you to give yours up.

excon

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Because they continue to let it happen. It suits their agenda.

Slightly different circumstances I think. In different country and terrain fighting an enemy unknown enemy. It has happened in previous wars as well.

I think though should civil war ever break out in the US (God forbid) there would only be one winner. And it wouldn't be the people carrying the handguns.

Not many people here own guns. I really don't think that that makes us any more vulnerable and subject to our Government, police and military power than you are in the US because you have guns. I really struggle to see the logic in what it offers you.

Now if they took your freedom of speech away, well there is another matter. But your right to bear arms, well I think it changes nothing int his day. When that law was written though, it would be a totally different story. I think it would have made a difference but that was along time ago and the world we live in today is very different, for good or for worse.

Skell,

Like Synnen I am so enjoying this discussion. To me, it's just like you have said, it is the sharing of different (and in some ways alike culture). In no way are you coming across as America bashing.

All of this is incredible insight and I actually thank you, as well as all the others, in not only sharing your view point but of your time as well.

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Originally Posted by excon

At the rate they've been locking people up over the last decade, your neighborhood is riddled with exconvicts. You think you'll be safer if you know where the sex offenders live??? Snicker, snicker… If you really knew who was in your neighborhood, you'd move to an island.

excon

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You should come live down under then. We are all ex-convicts. Or at least those of us with British backgrounds.

Sorry to make light of a serious topic.

It must be a concern Synnen as a parent and I feel for you. It would not be a nice thought. Can I ask does having your gun with you make you feel any better about this than you would if you didn't have it? Does having that gun there so you can shoot dead that old guy who talks to your daughters as he walks by the yard that you happen to think is a child molester make you feel more comfortable than if all you were armed with was your protective and guarding eye as a mother?? Just a question that interests me!

Not saying you would just shoot someone you were suspicious of but it sort of relates to the argument of having a gun as protection. When is a right time to use it? When is the threat either by a child molester or your government warrant you using your right to bear arms?

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Skell,

Like Synnen I am so enjoying this discussion. To me, it's just like you have said, it is the sharing of different (and in some ways alike culture). In no way are you coming across as America bashing.

All of this is incredible insight and I actually thank you, as well as all the others, in not only sharing your view point but of your time as well.

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Thanks Allheart. I'm glad that's how you feel. Would never want to offend you. Magprob on the other hand... ;)

See... the thing is, the ONLY situation that warrents using a handgun is protecting myself or someone else. And, unfortunately, the way things work here... if there were an intruder in my house, or attacking my family, etc--I'd be shooting to kill. When they live, they sue you and win.

I rely more on locks and doors and windows and the fact that I live on the second floor to keep me safe. I know that's not much.. but it's something.

The biggest problem in American isn't the guns... it's the fact that everyone feels entitled to the "good life", the life that's shown on TV and in the movies. Unfortunately, you have to work very hard and get very lucky to get that kind of life, most of the time. But... people feel like they have a right to happiness. They don't. They have a right to PURSUE happiness, but not at the expense of others, which is unfortunately what happens too often.

I'm addicted to this conversation, and keep checking it before I go to bed, when I'm too tired to put my thoughts down coherently :) If what I said doesn't make sense, I'll apologize now :)

Under your law would it be considered OK to shoot and kill an intruder in your home?

We can't still be on guns. I vote for a new topic. Hmm, how about?

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

What level is he? Was he ever alone with your daughter and their son? Try to put yourself in their place for a moment.

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He has a gross imposition charge against a male child. I don't know what that means.
He has been around my daughter in the past. I don't know how much in the last two years though. I know that they have swam together in the neighbor's pool.
I know there are criminals everywhere. I get it. But, the reason I was "freaked out" was that it is really to close to home.
My husband is going to ask my neighbor about it today and get the story. I just think they should have told us before we found it on the offender list. I mean they tell us way too much of everything else.

And would I shot someone I was suspicous of? I don't honestly think I could take another person's life.
Now, if that person was creeping up my stairway heading to my kid's room - I think that might change.

And, I know that the town I live in has some issues. I found out about a meth. Drug ring. Little 15 year old girls doing sex acts to obtain this drug. Homes getting broken into to steal tools to pawn.
On the outside - it is a quiet, quaint village - but then there is a dark underbelly. It makes me glad I have my house on the market so I don't have to live here anymore. Will the next place be any better with the world we live in? I don't know. I hope.

I think that every town has its own dark little secrets. It does not matter where you live. This day in age drugs, robberies, and sex are everywhere. But, we have control over how we live our lives. I know in my quaint little town, we have those secrets. It is the way society is right now...

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Originally Posted by Synnen

.

The biggest problem in American isn't the guns...it's the fact that everyone feels entitled to the "good life", the life that's shown on TV and in the movies. Unfortunately, you have to work very hard and get very lucky to get that kind of life, most of the time. But...people feel like they have a right to happiness. They don't. They have a right to PURSUE happiness, but not at the expense of others, which is unfortunately what happens too often.

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There you have it people. That's it. BINGO Synnen. We in America are just too darn spoiled. We keep wanting more - and when we get more - we want more than that!!

That's it Synnen - you just exposed the root problem to this issue and so many that we experience here in this beautiful country.

Madam President Synnen - not sure we can afford to wait until you are of age - but it sure will be worth the wait.

Girl, you just hit the nail big time!

*blush*

See... I can't run for president. I don't have the money, the political background, and my OWN background would be strewn all over the world to knock me out of the running.

But I'm honored by the fact that I'd have YOUR vote, AH!

Well I'll be darn! Timing is everything they say. Seems Allheart stumbled upon this latest news story where an Armed Miss America, just may have saved her own life, because she had chosen to exercise her right to own a handgun. Hmmmm Allheart still incredibly leary of guns, but I could not help but share this with all of you and how about the timing of this news event, right as we are having this incredible discussion.

Armed Miss America 1944 Stops Intruder - washingtonpost.com

It's funny, no matter how much I read your heartfelt stories about someone saving themselves because they owned a handgun it still doesn't make an effect on me. I guess I feel that violence begets violence. I am very happy with living in Canada where handguns are illegal. I feel so incredibly safer here than in any moderate to large american city.

The whole question of causality enters the picture. Is it safer here because handguns are illegal or is the crime rate lower because there is less poverty and despair here. I think it's a mix of both. Synnen hit the nail on the head with the sense of entitlement. I see it a little with my sister that lives in Boston and her circle of friends. I travel quite a bit and I'm happier to raise my kids here.

NK - Oh I couldn't agree more. I would much rather live in a world where handguns do not exsist.

I just try to still keep an open mind about things. I am greatly against handguns, especially in my home, but I respect those who wish to own them. I know they wish to hold on to their "entitlement" of owning one, but sometimes I think, what am my right not to have to be immersed in a community where someone owns a gun? That may be a bizarre way to twist it, but I personally at not at ease knowing just steps away, in someone's home is a deadly weapon. But I of course respect their rights.

Oh Canada sounds so nice. I was a huge hockey fan, just huge. I actually took french in high school, because back in the day most of the hockey players spoke french.

I have to tell you though, I was quite horrified at a documentary that I saw on Vancuver. I think it was Vancuver. Seems there is an awful lot of drug problems there and other difficulties. Is that right? I was shocked and saddened to say the least. Still am.

NK, I have been to Canada (Niagra Falls and Windsor) a few times and I must say what I have seen is beautiful.

Are there issues there though - other than gun control? You guys have a different health care plan than us Americans do, don't you? How is that working? Or Education or anything. I would love to hear from someone, out of this country, on topics where your country has different programs than we do in the US and how it works for you.
I know you have read the posts, so you have seen what is dominating the boards - criminals/crimes against kids, gun control, global warming, etc.
How is Canada different than the US in handling these things? Maybe we could learn something.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

There you have it people. That's it. BINGO Synnen. We in America are just too darn spoiled. We keep wanting more - and when we get more - we want more than that!!!!!

That's it Synnen - you just exposed the root problem to this issue and so many that we experience here in this beautiful country.

Madam President Synnen - not sure we can afford to wait until you are of age - but it sure will be worth the wait.

Girl, you just hit the nail big time!

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Is this sarcasm? LOL

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Originally Posted by Matt3046

Is this sarcasm? LOL

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No Matt - No sarcasm.

Canada has a universal health care coverage. We do not have to pay for doctors visits or exams or tests. In Canada it is important that everybody gets treated and cared for. Does not matter whether you have insurance or not. Our coverage card is all we need.

As you well know handguns are illegal. As the torontosun story says. More guns does not necessarily mean safer communities. Check out the torontosun.com

The government that we have in office right now, was not for kyoto. They were not really keen on the global aspect of pollution and control. Or points system. They have regularly stated that Canada has higher admissions then the states. That we need to adopt our own plan and our own goals to make. Without kyoto.

The previous liberal government were so relaxed with crime and punishment it was a joke but now with the concervative government there passing bills to get tougher on crime.

Previous government wanted to legalize pot, but now the concervative government has scraped that idea.

Oh, sorry about this nowwhat but the united states does not have any health plan or coverage. All I hear about the states is people being turned away becauase they do not have insurance. People going into major debt because of medical bills. We do not have to worry about that here. All though prescription drugs on the other hand are a different story all together.

Education is different depending on what province you are in. It is important to know that some provinces are trying to introduce bills that will make it illegal to drop out of school. That you need to finish the high school.

I am not sure what else to say. Just that the united states has lots of beautiful places. I love Maine and New Hampshire. The only thing that I do not like is the government. Which as everybody knows, bush is on his last leg.

We were indifferent about the iraq war and because of it we as canada was dealt with unfavorably because the american government called us a terrorist state, but we all know the difference.

I would never ever move to the states. I feel a lot safer in Canada, always will. I believe we have a health care coverage that exceeds other countries. All though we are struggling too, but not all systems are perfect. At least I do not have to worry about insurance or being turned away, because I do not have the money.

As well as safety. Americans are targeted by different countries around the world.. You guys have a big bullseye on your backs and it is because of your government. I prefer not to be in the middle of fire.

Okay tell me to shut up, I am rambling now.

Joe

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Originally Posted by NowWhat

Okay, at the advice of , RubyPitbull I have started a new thread. A new discussion.

Sort of talking out what we feel is wrong with this world - or our country. What we can do to fix it or make it better.

What tops your list as the most important issue?

There are lots to choose from

How we handle our criminals - is it fair or right that a non violent criminal gets 20 years for not paying his taxes and the guy he shares his cell with killed a child, but will get out in 7 with good behavior? Am I the only one that finds that disturbing?
(I guess that is what gets me going)

Or how about the war? How much longer do our guys have to fight and die? When can they come home? What is the war really about anyway?

What makes you angry? How would you change it if you could?

So here is my post - I hope you find it thought provoking.

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There is not much you can do to change a lot of what is happening in the world these days no matter how much we would love to change it, so much is beyond our means, we could make a difference by being there for others by taking more time and giving a non judgmental listening ear, be there for people that need us and just show that we care, if everyone acted this way then would we have half of the trouble we have in this world today? It would also be great if people were allowed to have their own opinions, who is to say who is right or wrong? Each to their own, it does not hurt to agree to differ, what is right for one person is not necessarily right for another, every person owns their life and should live it as peacefully as possible, so maybe all we can do to make this world a better place is to treat each other better, to treat people the way we would wish to be treated ourselves, there is too much suffering and pain in this world that can't be helped, it is so much nicer to share a smile and laughter, take care, love and peace anne x

You know health care is an issue. We have insurance and it's good. And the US has medicaid - which provides healthcare to low income families. It's the ones of us that are middle of the road. We make too much to qualify for medicaid - but have a hard time paying the bills that aren't covered under insurance.
I find it sickening when I hear stories of those turned away. - that should never happen. To me, that is someone putting a monetary value on someone else's life. And - I don't think you can do that.

I do also agree that the USA has a bullseye painted on us and it is a matter of time before war comes to our soil - that is a scary thought. I really wish our soldiers could come home - but, sadly, I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

Some days I feel like "safety" is an illusion. Are we really safe? There are so many things to look for. That is why I don't watch the news. It is so depressing. 10 killed here, 5 killed there. All of this crime. I read most of my news on the internet and try to keep informed - but I turned off the nightly news a long time ago.

Thanks Joe for sharing - really interesting and enjoyable to read.

Now - as far as healthcare and people being turned away - I am not 100% sure, but almost positive, and those in the heathcare field can correct me, but it is illegal to turn anyone away for medical care. I am referring to if someone goes to the Emergency Room at a hospital. It is my understanding, it is illegal for them to be turned away. I have never heard of anyone being turned away for care from an ER due to no insurance.

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Originally Posted by Matt3046

Is this sarcasm? LOL

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Matt it is not only America it is worldwide, it is a well known fact that if we get what we want then we don't want for it anymore because we have it, then we think of the next thing we need, we will never stop wanting because it is our nature, even people that are so rich that they can have anything material that they wanted, still crave for something the trouble is with this it is normally something money can't buy and is not so easy to achieve. Take care, love and peace anne x

If you want to know what it is like here in Australia just read Joe's post above and replace the word Canada with Australia. Our system is the same right down the fact that we refused to sign Kyoto too.

Gun laws credited as lifesavers - National - smh.com.au

Just thought it may be of interest to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

No Matt - No sarcasm.

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Sometimes, I can be somewhat dim.

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Originally Posted by iscorpio

There is not much you can do to change a lot of what is happening in the world these days no matter how much we would love to change it, so much is beyond our means, we could make a difference by being there for others by taking more time and giving a non judgmental listening ear, be there for people that need us and just show that we care, if everyone acted this way then would we have half of the trouble we have in this world today? It would also be great if people were allowed to have their own opinions, who is to say who is right or wrong? each to their own, it does not hurt to agree to differ, what is right for one person is not necessarily right for another, every person owns their life and should live it as peacefully as possible, so maybe all we can do to make this world a better place is to treat each other better, to treat people the way we would wish to be treated ourselves, there is too much suffering and pain in this world that can't be helped, it is so much nicer to share a smile and laughter, take care, love and peace anne x

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:p Hippie

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Originally Posted by Matt3046

Sometimes, I can be somewhat dim.

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Aww Matt not at all. I enjoy your post! And sorry, the job of being dim has been filled my friend... by me :D

Ok, now we can do something different. Does anyone actually hate Alex Baldwin any more or less than before. My opinion was not too good to begin with. Should the tape have been released? Was he at all justified in his actions, (note I say at all, because of course he was way out of line) based on the fact that he flew from NY to La to visit with the child, and the child did not want to come. It's a hot issue, (kids and courts.) What's the consensus.

I didn't really have feelings about Alec Baldwin to begin with - but listening to that tape - Boy oh boy - did he screw up. No father should talk to his kid that way. And he should have known better considering the custody issues he has with his ex. And YES, I think she should have released it. Shame on him.

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Originally Posted by Matt3046

Ok, now we can do something different. Does anyone actually hate Alex Baldwin any more or less than before. My opinion was not too good to begin with. Should the tape have been released? Was he at all justified in his actions, (note I say at all, because of course he was way out of line) based on the fact that he flew from NY to La to visit with the child, and the child did not want to come. It's a hot issue, (kids and courts.) Whats the consensus.

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Do I live in a bubble? What is going on with Alec Baldwin?

Oh, he got mad at his 12 year old daughter and left her a nasty voice mail. Calling her a little pig several times - telling her he was going to get on a plane and come out and straighten her out or something. Called her mom something. Just an angry call.

Outstanding. I must live in a bubble... or I have missed a couple of nights of Entertainment Tonight!

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Originally Posted by NowWhat

I didn't really have feelings about Alec Baldwin to begin with - but listening to that tape - Boy oh boy - did he screw up. No father should talk to his kid that way. And he should of known better considering the custody issues he has with his ex. And YES, I think she should of released it. Shame on him.

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While I don't condone Baldwin's actions, I do think they are understandable. Remember, this was a SCHEDULED call. Under his Visitation rights, he was entitled to this call and to talk to his daughter at that time. Apparently this was not the first time his daughter has missed their scheduled calls.

What I saw in this incident was a man trying to be a good father to his child. But that child spurning him, possibly at the insistence of a mother who clearly was trying to make things more difficult for him. Instead of trying to remain civil for the sake of the child, she's become a pawn in their battle.

So, I can't condem Baldwin for losing his cool and I do fault Basinger for releasing it. She didn't only embarrass Baldwin, but her daughter as well.

I agree with you Scott. I feel very badly for the man. This custody battle has been going on for a long time. I think he has been baited by his ex for a while. She has methodically turning his daughter against him. He finally exploded and she got what she has been waiting for. If this was typical of his behavior, we would have heard about it before. The fact that Basinger taped it, tells me that this was a set up long in the making. What he said was absolutely wrong, but understandable, when you are constantly being blocked from seeing or speaking with your child. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. This really should have been directed at the mother, not the child. The kid is a pawn in a game. Terribly, terribly sad.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

The fact that Basinger taped it, tells me that this was a set up long in the making.

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Well, I think she just took the tape from her daughter's voice mail.

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

What he said was absolutely wrong, but understandable, when you are constantly being blocked from seeing or speaking with your child. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. This really should have been directed at the mother, not the child. The kid is a pawn in a game. Terribly, terribly sad.

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Yes it is sad. But I think Baldwin is actually going to come out better from this.

I agree that she taped it from voice mail. The fact is, she has been waiting for him to finally blow. From what I understand they have been in a custody battle for years. She let this "leak" on purpose. But, I think you are right about him coming out of this okay. If someone like me, who doesn't really follow this stuff, sees through this, I can't imagine a Judge won't.

What's funny to me is that it makes Basinger look bad, not Balwin, in my opinion anyway.

I think her little plan backfired :P

Hello:

In my view, the only thing he did that was improper was the name calling. Everything else was RIGHT ON. Go Alec.

excon

PS> I loved "The Hunt For Red October".

You know, I get how some one can get frustrated, especially if you are constantly getting blocked from your child - but how does blowing up at a child help? I mean, if you are angry and feel that you have been wronged - take it up with the mother.
Calling a 12 year old girl a little pig several times through out a voice message do anyone any good?
If she missed the call - she missed the call. "Hey Honey, I really miss talking to you, call me when you get this. I love you. Call me back. Dad" That is what he should have said to his daughter.
The call to his ex. Is where he lets off steam.