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Originally Posted by Serious Student

Make no mistake, I am a troll at heart

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I thought this was funny. My son likes to troll, sometimes elaborately... He and his brother just made a funny movie this week and posted it anonymously, just to troll someone.

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but I came here to contribute. Occasionally I might post something with an underlying trollish tone, but I always try and contribute when I post.

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We'll see. :)

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I don't want any arguments please. Now put back my previous, I think it was pretty lol but truthful.

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I think the post contributed, but it would be nice if you could tone down your descriptions of your sexual urges. We have all experienced the same or similar and don't need it explained with such urgency. :)

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Personally, I believe porn is degrading in reference to women. Have you ever seen a bukkake scene? It's really disgusting I always get turned off.

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I had to look this up on Wikipedia.

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I don't want to go through life like this until I have it for real.

Why is this happening to us?

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Well from what I've been reading, the more you watch porn, the less you will be able to respect the women in your life, and the harder it will become to see them as completely human like you, especially if you are angry.

It's all very well for people to say that fantasy is not a crime and no one should be judged for what they think about, but what we think about and how we feel about that is really who we are.

So IMO we have to think about who we want to be and make choices accordingly.

Asking, that's an astounding amount of research. I'm very impressed. Did you find any studies regarding positive outcome non-aggresive material?

The reason I ask is that I don't want to be seen as defending the extreme forms that are admittedly out there. People will push everything too far, just to find out how far too far is. The slasher softcore in the "Halloween," "Friday the 13th," and "Saw" series of movies sound like they would fit the study as easily as the "Learning the Ropes" bondage series.

Where does the line get drawn? Penetration? Genitalia? Pubic hair? Buttocks? Breasts? Shoulders? Ankles? All of these were at one point or another considered scandalous.

I'm just reading through the various arguments and responses here, and I'm with Asking.

I sincerely believe that porn objectifies men and women, but particularly women. People argue that it objectifies men as much as it does women, but the problem is that the power relationship is not equal.

Ultimately it diminishes women in the same way that sexual repression used to because it is often misogynist and controlling in its depiction of women - the women are stereotypes, the acts formulaic.

Because men are the main consumers of porn, what are we to do with these depictions of women that seem to be less than real human beings? Many men are able to see past this fantasy and use porn for the visual stimulation that it provides. This thread clearly provides proof of that.

But. And it's a big but. Porn is much more mainstream and available now. Sex is a commodity to be bought and sold and many more people are involved in the industry. Vanilla porn is becoming 'boring' and porn producers are looking for new things to stimulate and titillate. Where will it all end, and how will it affect men's expectations of women in real life relationships?

It may be that I am just an old feminist from way back, but these are some of the questions I ask myself. Even this old feminist has watched a range of porn - from consensual sexual acts to things that you don't really want to know about.

Alty talked about Germany where sexuality is much more open - I have to say that some of the most horrendous, degrading and disgusting porn I have ever seen was made in Germany. Is it because it is more out in the open that the filmmakers need to go to greater lengths to shock or titillate the viewer?

Food for thought.

Hmm, yup, good points Gemini. Thanks for your input! :)

I'll be looking forward to the answers :)

Yes, because of the internet, porn is so easily accessible. With the modern mobile phones, people send clips from one to the other in so little time!

Gemini, do let me point out that the plain old "boring" vanilla porn is primarily what I have been advocating, in case that wasn't clear.

As far as objectifying, doesn't the industry objectify the entire act in order to merchandise it? Power relationships may have made women the first to become objects, but I think the process has moved well past that stage. Or are Chippendale's dancers available for the book club(sorry, had to get my smart-aleck points in)?

A word of warning - if you don't like the leather flavor of German material, stay far away from the Czech.

I agree the industry is pushing the boundaries. In about ten more years we'll see the Texas Chainsaw Hookers and Freddie Krueger does Dallas.

Unky, here's a couple of links you should also consider
Obscenity and Pornography: Behavioral Aspects - Evidence Concerning Behavioral Effects

Nasty Porn, Friendly Porn, and Antisocial Behavior

Thanks Cats! I'll have a look at them:)

Cats, I'm sorry, but the example of the Chippendale dancers doesn't wash. Just because some guys go to the book club in G strings doesn't make the power relationship between men and women equal. It's not.

Look at some of the really degrading porn. Who is the on receiving end of the degradation?

Even in the vanilla porn who is on the receiving end of the butt slaps, the multiple penetrations, the come shots etc?

I was trying, in my rather inarticulate way, to ask where is it all leading? And how is it affecting our attitudes in general towards sexuality and women?

I totally agree with Gemini. I have not been able to contribute more because of an, ahem, job obligation.
I am reading though!

Well, one thought I've been having. When humans (and other animals) learn, we do some of that by association. So, classically, dogs who heard a bell every time they got fed, "learned" to salivate every time they heard the bell, because they associated that with meal time.

In the same way, pornography that emphasizes the humiliation of women teaches both men and women to associate the mistreatment of women with orgasms and pleasure generally. As I pointed out before, studies have shown that men who view pornography lose their inhibition to the idea of rape and are more likely to express anger toward women. I'm guessing it feels good to view women that way, it's just a little closer to having an orgasm. Mistreating women is the equivalent of salivating before a meal. (Just my idea.)

None of the studies I cited were done on women, but I would be amazed if viewing such pornography did not affect women's view of themselves negatively as well, by similar association.

asking

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Originally Posted by Gemini54

Even in the vanilla porn who is on the receiving end of the butt slaps, the multiple penetrations, the come shots etc?

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That is a very cogent point Gemini. These could also be used as examples of the industry pushing the boundaries, or how far they have already pushed them, but the "receiving end" remains the same.

Asking, unless you presuppose that all explicit sex depictions humiliate women, which I think is what Gemini is trying to say, you are generalizing from some very specific studies that don't support that premise.

All I am trying to say here, besides sparking debate to give Unky more material for his, is that explicit sex does not have to be rape or power exchange or sadomasochistic.

My favorite scene has a nice looking guy and girl and he proposes to her. She asks if he'll get better looking and he responds that he'll try. She accepts and they make love. Scintillating dialog, I know, but where's any degradation?

By the way, the Chippendale's thing was supposed to be facetious.

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Asking, unless you presuppose that all explicit sex depictions humiliate women, which I think is what Gemini is trying to say, you are generalizing from some very specific studies that don't support that premise.

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Hi cat, that's not what I was trying to say. I was actually saying that the industry is pushing the boundaries so that a lot of the sexual acts depicted are degrading to women. I don't have a problem with explicit, I have concerns about where the industry is heading and the trickle through effect to women in society.

Some of the best sex scenes and most erotic are explicit and they simply depict two people making love, having sex. I have to say that I prefer to watch explicit sex in movies rather than in porn these days - give me a French or Italian film any day!

I would not say that all explicit sex humiliates women!
And I would not say that all explicit depictions of sex humiliate women, either.
(I assume that's what you meant.) Your scene sounds pretty innocuous. :)

I would say that though that the sexual humiliation of women is the standard of the industry.

By analogy, color television is the standard of the industry. That's not to say that black and white couldn't still exist if someone wanted it. But it would be hard to find.

(And this is not meant to be a comparison between the value of b&w TV and non degrading depictions of sex. :))

In today's Chicago Sun-Times was an article, "Does porn empower women?" "Yes!" says the December Playboy cover girl. "Finally a woman gets paid more than a man for comparable work, she gets to set the rules, gets to be in a real teamwork with other women, as many key positions at Playboy are in fact held by women!"

One conclusion is that "being photographed naked is not, in fact, a job that moves women as a group closer to equality with men in terms of employment and earning opportunities. Instead, it reinforces the distinctly unfeminist and demonstrably false idea that the commodification of certain sexuality is a form of real power."

"Men, for instance, are favored for all sorts of powerful, high-paying jobs, and often respected more as they get older. Women can sometimes make a bunch of money by taking off their clothes when they're young and most attractive, but then they are less respected in that profession as they get older, no matter how much valuable information they've learned about posing naked by that point."

Read more at Does porn empower women? :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Nation

Wow, thanks WG! That's some piece of interesting information! :)

Thanks to all of you! :) I'll have to get through all of this again to have a better overview. Keep 'em coming! :)

I don't know how much more we've got for you, Unky. Asking and Gemini and I seem to have reached a consensus that the subject, in and of itself, is ok; but that the merchandisers have gone past the boundaries of good taste in marketing the perverse.

Thanks for the spirited debate, you guys. I hope you all know how much I respect your opinions.

Now for some porn...

It's OK. Well, if any points come up, and you wish to share, feel free to post! :)

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

I don't know how much more we've got for you, Unky. Asking and Gemini and I seem to have reached a consensus that the subject, in and of itself, is ok; but that the merchandisers have gone past the boundaries of good taste in marketing the perverse.
Thanks for the spirited debate, you guys. I hope you all know how much I respect your opinions.

Now for some porn....

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Well, not exactly. I would have said, "but that merchandisers have poisoned their own product by selling the degradation of women and teaching millions of men and women to associate sexual arousal and orgasm with debasing and shaming women in every conceivable way simply for being women."

I think that captures our consensus a little better. ;)

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Originally Posted by asking

Well, not exactly. I would have said, "but that merchandisers have poisoned their own product by selling the degradation of women and teaching millions of men and women to associate sexual arousal and orgasm with debasing and shaming women in every conceivable way simply for being women."

I think that captures our consensus a little better. ;)

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Absolutely! Five greenies for that!

Unknown,
Here's a documentary about the Business of pornography. I'm not advocating anything in particular in it.

Hulu - Vanguard: Porn 2.0 - Watch the full episode now.

Edit: Irony Alert. Because so many people steal porn, the industry is starting to lose money for the first time ever.
The irony is that Hulu (which is showing this documentary about porn) is giving away so much content that cable is getting ready to crack down and force Hulu to charge for content.

I cannot believe that I've been so busy that I completely missed this thread.

Need to read back before throwing my thoughts in, though.

We should have told you!

Porn is no fun without Synnen!!

Lol... although I was posting in the peeves thread, she didn't see the line in my sig :rolleyes: Anyway, gald you're here Synn, waiting for your part of comment ;)

I'm not in for a debate but here's my opinion, if it matters:

I like porn. I watch porn.

Porn is like gambling. You can enjoy it but if you get addicted it'll cost you.

Porn does ruin relationships if you let it. Most of the time women want to be the only woman the guy sees and so the guy sneaks around and watches porn. It's not exactly the porn that ruined the relationship it's the sneaking around part.

Well that's my two cents.

Porn is good. It's not bad and a destroyer of relationships unless you let it be.

Sarah

Thanks Muddy :) I really appreciate it.

Okay, have still only made it through part of reading everything, but wanted to put in my two pennies.

Porn is like EVERY other sex issue: it depends on the people involved and how they use it. The problems arise when couples are not open in their discussion about it, and then find out that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum in their opinions on it.

Personally, I think that as long as you and your partner are on the same page about it, or at least respect each others' opinions, there's not an issue.

HOWEVER--I will agree that porn--JUST like Disney movies--can and does put some unrealistic expectations out there for people to follow in relationships. Porn makes people feel badly if they aren't that freaky, or sexy, or aren't squirting or don't have a big enough penis or pretty vagina---or whatever! I think that SOME of that problem is that those people have self-esteem issues to begin with. Either way, porn tends to make people, specifically young men, see sex as being good ONLY if it's done a certain way, or they need their girl to be "freaky' (or the other side of it--they'll only date "vanilla" girls because you screw freaky girls, but you marry good girls), or they have gotten used to the perfection of porn stars/centerfolds.

Disney movies, by contrast, make people, especially young women, see marriage and love as being too easy, too perfect. Most Disney princesses marry the first guy they meet and live happily ever after with him, no fights or struggles between the two of them--it's always the two of them against the world. This is NO MORE unrealistic than porn is--yet we encourage our daughters to watch it!

My point is this: Women go into relationships expecting a fairy tale. Men go into relationships with an expectation of a certain kind of sexual progression. This is especially true of young men and women with little life experience to teach them otherwise. Part of the reason that it IS so damaging, though, has nothing to do with the media pushing all of this: it has mainly to do with the lack of a parental example of a good marriage/relationship. With so many comign from broken homes, and raised by single parents that date (and usually have no problem being open about the dating in front of their kids--good and bad)--where do kids have an example of a real, live relationship that is healthy and normal?

ANYTHING taken to extremes is bad--porn, fairy tales, smoking, drugs, alcohol, going to your mother's house every night instead of home to your spouse, whatever.

If porn is used as a tool to help a flagging relationship, or as a masturbatory tool for when your partner is not available--well, fine then. If porn is something you're looking at at work on a daily basis and you neglect your spouse for it---there's a problem.

Great Post, Synnnen.

I agree that Disney sets up weird expectations too. I also think Disney depicts women has helpless and relatively incompetent compared to men. These are not good for girls' development of competence.

I think there are plenty of strong competent female characters in Disney movies, they are not all helpless and weak. I hate it when the politically correct crowd complain about things such as ethnic stereotypes in old Disney movies. You can't judge a movie made in the 70s and earlier by today's standards and they were meant to be funny not intolerant.

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Originally Posted by earl237

I think there are plenty of strong competent female characters in Disney movies, they are not all helpless and weak. I hate it when the politically correct crowd complain about things such as ethnic stereotypes in old Disney movies. You can't judge a movie made in the 70s and earlier by today's standards and they were meant to be funny not intolerant.

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I think there are plenty of strong and competent female characters in porn--you just have to choose which ones you watch.

JUST like in Disney movies.

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Originally Posted by earl237

I think there are plenty of strong competent female characters in Disney movies, they are not all helpless and weak. I hate it when the politically correct crowd complain about things such as ethnic stereotypes in old Disney movies. You can't judge a movie made in the 70s and earlier by today's standards and they were meant to be funny not intolerant.

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Hey! I'm not a "politically correct crowd." I'm one person. And I am telling you what I think! I have watched a fair number of Disney movies, willingly and not. And they were not made in the 70s.

I hate it when crowds of politically correct conservatives defend canned culture. ;)

Thanks Synn, very precious opinion from you :)

Well, most cartoons are what they are because of fantasy, right? And I think porn, in one way or the other does the same thing, as stated before.

Ok, the debate occurred an hour ago, I posted this in the lounge's ship, here it is:

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Anyway, got the debate an hour ago. My friend was the one who had to up up the arguments, and me the rebuttal. However, he lacked some material, I proposed to give him mine, since I got more arguments than required and I only needed to rebut.

He said that he was ok, that I need not give him mine. Then, he was short on ideas, too late to give him more info now :( Used half the time allocated.

Then rebuttal round, I was nervous about the fact that we had wasted a lot of time, that I forgot my rebuttal and got off completely. Fortunately, the opposing team did that too. Then, the summary time, my friend, well, sort of didn't say the required things and made my team lose the debate.

However, as I replied to many questions after the debate from the audience, and my opposing team member who did too, both of us were close to the 'best speaker'. She once or twice got 'black out' (of ideas) and that made me the best speaker, so yeah! :D

Many thanks to all those who supported me in that debate, I really would never have got that best speaker title if you were not there :)

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We're all here to help people, Unky. It's especially gratifying when it's a friend.

I think it's not harmful for us to talk about porn,but I don't recommand it.

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Originally Posted by shihouzhuge

I think it's not harmful for us to talk about porn,but i don't recommand it.

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And why is that? We aren't viewing it, of course. We're talking about it.

Well, from the debate, I've learned that education is the best weapon against porn. So, better talk about it :rolleyes: Of course, not talking of what happens in the clips, but about it, it's dangers, etc and that's what we are doing :)

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Well, from the debate, I've learned that education is the best weapon against porn. So, better talk about it :rolleyes: Of course, not talking of what happens in the clips, but about it, it's dangers, etc and that's what we are doing :)

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Hello unky:

Well, I haven't followed the whole thread.. But, I HOPE we're not talking about the dangers of porn, because there ISN'T any.

I submit that pornography is very mainstream in this country, and MOST people consume it with NO difficulty. You know, of course, that it's on EVERY cable TV network in the country, and it's in EVERY hotel room in this country.

I DO submit, however, that there is a small segment of the population that can't handle porn, just like there's a small segment of society that can't handle liquor. That's probably around 10% of the people. Like liquor, we found that it doesn't work to ban something that MOST people do without any problems.

So, I don't buy into the evils of drinking, drugging, and pornography. They are only inanimate objects. In and of themselves, they aren't good or bad. People are good or bad.

excon

Sorry Exy, but I have got information about porn saying the opposite.

A study showed that 100% of people watching porn were affected.

Whether it is a long term effect of not, that is what depends on the individual (that's my view)

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Sorry Exy, but I have got information about porn saying the opposite.

A study showed that 100% of people watching porn were affected.

Whether it is a long term effect of not, that is what depends on the individual (that's my view)

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Do you have a site for this? I wonder what the study meant by "affected." Excited? Sickened? A little of both? "Affected" seems to be a very broad based word.

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Originally Posted by excon

So, I don't buy into the evils of drinking, drugging, and pornography. They are only inanimate objects. In and of themselves, they aren't good or bad. People are good or bad.

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Couldn't agree more.

This trails off into people not being able to take responsibility for their own decisions. I'm with excon on this, although there may be statistical evidence, I just don't believe it.

Hmm, OK, look at post 114. That should be on page 11.

It's concerning aggressivity towards female, positive outcome and negative outcome.

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

A study showed that 100% of people watching porn were affected.

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Hello again, unky:

Yeah... When I watch porn, I'm affected... Damnit!

But I, like Judy, wonder if it's so bad and it's been PROVEN to be so bad, why is it absolutely everywhere, and why isn't your government doing something about it?

excon