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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

That’s peachy-keen and if that is what Obama is talking about fine. But what about Iraq, Iran, immigration, foreign policy, abortion, and health care?

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Before the election in November, you will get your fill of who plans to do what in those areas. Already Obama says he will stabilize the levees in NO if he's elected. No one seems to have done that so far since Katrina. Obama has said he wants us out of Iraq but realizes we can't just drop everything and leave (Clinton), but we shouldn't have to stay there indefinitely (McCain). Obama will negotiate with Iran and avoid a major conflict. Stay tuned to hear more!

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Before the election in November, you will get your fill of who plans to do what in those areas. Already Obama says he will stabilize the levees in NO if he's elected. No one seems to have done that so far since Katrina. Obama has said he wants us out of Iraq but realizes we can't just drop everything and leave (Clinton), but we shouldn't have to stay there indefinitely (McCain). Obama will negotiate with Iran and avoid a major conflict. Stay tuned to hear more!

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"For most of our history we have been blessed with a two-party system that made it inevitable that, when we divided, one side would have a majority, even if a small one, and could therefore govern. Instead of a campaign based on the fantasy of overcoming divisiveness, it would be good to learn what choices Senator Obama thinks we should make. He could use the practice. Just in case he gets elected and has to, you know, divide us."

Political Mavens » In Praise of Division

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There has been a lot of loose talk lately about “overcoming divisiveness” and “coming together” and “bridging gaps”. The people who talk this way need to explain what they mean, if indeed they really know what they mean. Because that does not sound like Democracy but rather fascism.

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Exactly... there should be some blue water distance between the political divide and we should have passionate debate . I guarantee no one debates politics in N.Korea.

Obama is all packaging . Read his book and beyond calls for bipartisanship he has the Democrat talking points down pat. Bipartisanship of course means everyone should drift leftward.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Bipartisanship of course means everyone should drift leftward.

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Exactly!

I do have to question the premise that blacks aren't voting for him because he's black, or that women aren't voting for Hillary because she's a woman. Look at some stats from Super Duper Tuesday:
Look at it from this point when Rev. Jackson or Al Sharpton ran for pres. There was like a 20 something percent turn out for blacks voters. Now you had an 82% turn out for Obama. I get a little upset when people think that black people are so nieve that the only reason we would vote for Obama was because he is black. A lot of blacks feel he in touch with their experiences and like I said before" I think he would eat dinner with me." He has stood and has distinct positions on all of the issues, sometimes you have to look it up for yourself . People think we just sit around and get all of our information from watching TV. Like the three whites guys I spoke of earlier.
Why would he say all of his good ideas on TV so early in the race? So people can steal them and use his catch phrases, like before? If I was a political stragatist I would not take that route either. Yes some people might vote because he is black, just like you would vote for the person you feel embodies most, or all of your views If they happen to be of your race that would just be a bonus.
There are a lot of candidates who say one thing on TV but vote another way they have a word for them call "flip floppers". If you need to now where Obama stands on an issue just let me know I tell how to find out.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

No doubt the men Clinton was speaking of deserved a thorough "intellectual" beating :D

I do have to question the premise that blacks aren't voting for him because he's black, or that women aren't voting for Hillary because she's a woman. Look at some stats from Super Duper Tuesday:



Do you really think 82 percent of blacks support Obama because of what he's done or what he stands for? Same for Hillary:



I can't tell you how many times I've heard from exit polls and interviews "it's time for a black president," "we've come a long way," we're breaking down barriers," "let's give a black man (or a woman) a chance" or "I connected with Hillary" after her NH show.

Great, I'm all for those things but I would never vote for or against a candidate because of race or gender - or in the case of the GOP, a white male, a Mormon, a Baptist preacher or just because they can beat the Democrat. It sure seems to me like a whole lot of people are doing just that with little regard for the things that really matter. All of these things can be part of the equation but shouldn't be the primary factor.

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Look at it from this point when Rev. Jackson or Al Sharpton ran for pres. There was like a 20 something percent turn out for blacks voters. Now you had an 82% turn out for Obama. I get a little upset when people think that black people are so nieve that the only reason we would vote for Obama was because he is black. A lot of blacks feel he in touch with their experiences and like I said before" I think he would eat dinner with me." He has stood and has distinct positions on all of the issues, sometimes you have to look it up for yourself . People think we just sit around and get all of our information from watching TV. Like the three whites guys I spoke of earlier.
Why would he say all of his good ideas on TV so early in the race? So people can steal them and use his catch phrases, like before? If I was a political stragatist I would not take that route either. Yes some people might vote because he is black, just like you would vote for the person you feel embodies most, or all of your views If they happen to be of your race that would just be a bonus.
There are a lot of candidates who say one thing on TV but vote another way they have a word for them call "flip floppers". If you need to now where Obama stands on an issue just let me know I tell how to find out.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

That’s peachy-keen and if that is what Obama is talking about fine. But what about Iraq, Iran, immigration, foreign policy, abortion, and health care?

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If you really want to know where he stands on those issues just goggle Obama stances on issues and h is voting record. Or you can just sit around and wait for it to come TV. Trust me there is plenty of substance. If we can stop spending over 200 billion a year( in 4 years that can be over 600billion. Imagine what it could be in 100 years like Mccains says, that is how long we will be in Iraq)( I love that stance on Iraq:p ) on other things we just might can covert that into other things that will help our ecconomy, colleges, teachers, and immigration. Maybe if we could somehow convince other countries that we are doing thing for legitimate reason, we just might be able to get some help on combating terrorism. Instead of looking like we are the terrorist.( " I am not saying I think we are terrorist, before you get you feathers in an uproar, that is just how we are perceived around the most of the world.") Maybe if our talk was backed by our actions we could convince the Middle east that we really want peace for the sake of man kind and not special interest. This is what he means by "bridging gaps". Will it be easy Obama says no, but can it be done I feel it is worth the try.

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Originally Posted by kp2171

time to unsubscribe from this thread. completely off topic.

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Check my latest post. There is still more substance I like your input

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

"For most of our history we have been blessed with a two-party system that made it inevitable that, when we divided, one side would have a majority, even if a small one, and could therefore govern. Instead of a campaign based on the fantasy of overcoming divisiveness, it would be good to learn what choices Senator Obama thinks we should make. He could use the practice. Just in case he gets elected and has to, you know, divide us."

Political Mavens » In Praise of Division

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Was it fantasy that allows you to say " Our country"? That you would have a voice in congress? To get paid equal wages with whites? To own your home? That Russia wold fall without a physical conflict... My point is that many real things start as fantasy, or in DR. Kings words a "Dream".

Clinton

That is an almost perfect Parroting of the Democratic Position; I simply disagree and especially in regards to your implication that the world is not cooperating in the War on Terror and also about Iraq.

Sarkozy, from France has this to say about America:

From the very beginning, the American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but were rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of every person.
America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who—with their hands, their intelligence and their heart—built the greatest nation in the world: "Come, and everything will be given to you." She said: "Come, and the only limits to what you'll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent." America embodies this extraordinary ability to grant every person a second chance.
What made America great was her ability to transform her own dream into hope for all mankind.
The men and women of my generation remember the Marshall Plan that allowed their fathers to rebuild a devastated Europe. They remember the Cold War, during which America again stood as the bulwark of the Free World against the threat of new tyranny.
Fundamentally, what are those who love America asking of her, if not to remain forever true to her founding values?

Together we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France—petrified with horror—rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: "We are all American." And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us as so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you. They made you greater. The entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people. And from day one, France decided to participate shoulder to shoulder with you in the war in Afghanistan. Let me tell you solemnly today: France will remain engaged in Afghanistan as long as it takes, because what's at stake in that country is the future of our values and that of the Atlantic Alliance. For me, failure is not an option. Terrorism will not win because democracies are not weak, because we are not afraid of this barbarism. America can count on France.
Read it all in the link I provided below…every American should read it regularly.

Speech by President Sarkozy Before Congress - November 7, 2007 - The New York Sun

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Clinton

That is an almost perfect Parroting of the Democratic Position; I simply disagree and especially in regards to your implication that the world is not cooperating in the War on Terror and also about Iraq.

Sarkozy, from France has this to say about America:

From the very beginning, the American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but were rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of each and every person.
America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who—with their hands, their intelligence and their heart—built the greatest nation in the world: "Come, and everything will be given to you." She said: "Come, and the only limits to what you'll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent." America embodies this extraordinary ability to grant each and every person a second chance.
What made America great was her ability to transform her own dream into hope for all mankind.
The men and women of my generation remember the Marshall Plan that allowed their fathers to rebuild a devastated Europe. They remember the Cold War, during which America again stood as the bulwark of the Free World against the threat of new tyranny.
Fundamentally, what are those who love America asking of her, if not to remain forever true to her founding values?

Together we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France—petrified with horror—rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: "We are all American." And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us as so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you. They made you greater. The entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people. And from day one, France decided to participate shoulder to shoulder with you in the war in Afghanistan. Let me tell you solemnly today: France will remain engaged in Afghanistan as long as it takes, because what's at stake in that country is the future of our values and that of the Atlantic Alliance. For me, failure is not an option. Terrorism will not win because democracies are not weak, because we are not afraid of this barbarism. America can count on France.
Read it all in the link I provided below…every American should read it regularly.

Speech by President Sarkozy Before Congress - November 7, 2007 - The New York Sun

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Just like I said before Talk Did you read today's news"(AP) France's president Tuesday ruled out sending French troops to Iraq, following India and Germany in rejecting U.S. calls for help without approval from the United Nations.

Although a few nations are sending troops, near daily guerrilla attacks - many of them deadly - and growing doubts about the basis for the war are complicating Washington's search for peacekeepers to replace exhausted American troops in Iraq.

In Paris, President Jacques Chirac, a leading opponent of the war, told the Czech president that sending French soldiers to Iraq "cannot be imagined in the current context."

He cited comments last week by his foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, who said a French role was unthinkable without approval by the U.N. Security Council.

India also rejected a U.S. request for peacekeepers for Iraq, saying Monday it would consider such a move only under a U.N. mandate. And German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said last week that his country would consider sending peacekeepers only if asked by an interim Iraqi government or the United Nations.

"We are very consciously not with troops in Iraq," German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said Tuesday. "The German position about this did not change."

Oh yea I am not a Democrat. I am not constrained by by suck things as party lines. Are you?

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Clinton

That is an almost perfect Parroting of the Democratic Position; I simply disagree and especially in regards to your implication that the world is not cooperating in the War on Terror and also about Iraq.

Sarkozy, from France has this to say about America:

From the very beginning, the American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but were rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of each and every person.
America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who—with their hands, their intelligence and their heart—built the greatest nation in the world: "Come, and everything will be given to you." She said: "Come, and the only limits to what you'll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent." America embodies this extraordinary ability to grant each and every person a second chance.
What made America great was her ability to transform her own dream into hope for all mankind.
The men and women of my generation remember the Marshall Plan that allowed their fathers to rebuild a devastated Europe. They remember the Cold War, during which America again stood as the bulwark of the Free World against the threat of new tyranny.
Fundamentally, what are those who love America asking of her, if not to remain forever true to her founding values?

Together we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France—petrified with horror—rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: "We are all American." And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us as so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you. They made you greater. The entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people. And from day one, France decided to participate shoulder to shoulder with you in the war in Afghanistan. Let me tell you solemnly today: France will remain engaged in Afghanistan as long as it takes, because what's at stake in that country is the future of our values and that of the Atlantic Alliance. For me, failure is not an option. Terrorism will not win because democracies are not weak, because we are not afraid of this barbarism. America can count on France.
Read it all in the link I provided below…every American should read it regularly.

Speech by President Sarkozy Before Congress - November 7, 2007 - The New York Sun

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You skipped over the points I was trying to make about "Fantasy?" Or were they always real for the native people of this country?

Clinton

You must either be a fast reader or just blew me off. :)

Whatever the case, Jacques Chirac, along with his Socialist Party are gone and good riddance.

We too must rid ourselves of the “Socialist Democratic Party” that has evolved and restore it to what it was.

I think if Obama wins he can thank -- boobs from Arkansaw

[TMP] "Does Bill Clinton cost Hillary the Presidency?" Topic

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Originally Posted by clinton mccoy

You skipped over the points I was trying to make about "Fantasy?" Or were they always real for the native people of this country?

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Didn’t skip over it, it wasn’t there when I last looked.:)

I’ll quote Sarkozy again.

America's strength is not only a material strength, it is first and foremost a spiritual and moral strength. No one expressed this better than a black pastor who asked just one thing of America: that she be true to the ideal in whose name he—the grandson of a slave—felt so deeply American. His name was Martin Luther King. He made America a universal role model.
The world still remembers his words—words of love, dignity and justice. America heard those words and America changed.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Clinton

You must either be a fast reader or just blew me off. :)

Whatever the case, Jacques Chirac, along with his Socialist Party are gone and good riddance.

We too must rid ourselves of the “Socialist Democratic Party” that has evolved and restore it to what it was.

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But France has not sent any troops to Iraq. The troops they have in Afganistand are only show troops. We are doing 75% of the founding and man power in the war on terror.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Didn’t skip over it, it wasn’t there when I last looked.:)

I’ll quote Sarkozy again.

America's strength is not only a material strength, it is first and foremost a spiritual and moral strength. No one expressed this better than a black pastor who asked just one thing of America: that she be true to the ideal in whose name he—the grandson of a slave—felt so deeply American. His name was Martin Luther King. He made America a universal role model.
The world still remembers his words—words of love, dignity and justice. America heard those words and America changed.

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Starting with a dream, hope, or Fantasy as whites at that time would have called it. Hey did you notice how Hillary won the big states( big money) and Obama the small states(the little people) can you see the analergy?

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Originally Posted by clinton mccoy

Starting with a dream, hope, or Fantasy as whites at that time would have called it. Hey did you notice how Hillary won the big states( big money) and Obama the small states(the little people) can you see the analergy?

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I have a Dream too. That one day the people in the mid-East will enjoy the same kind of Democracy we in America have. Unfortunately the Socialist Democrats don’t share that Dream. If Obama shares that Dream he’s with the wrong Party..

Yep, I noticed that. :)

I truly don't think so. All the racist haven't died off yet.

One thing is for sure . At this point substance has not defined this race

Would a white man who only had local political experience and then less than a full term in the Senate have a chance at being the party nominee ?

Would Hillary be a legit nominee if she was not the wife of a former President ?

Heck ;would a 71 year old women be in consideration for the job ?

I will repeat what I have said ;I read Obama's latest book . That is where I found his policy positions. Beyond the constant pointing out that in his view Washington doesn't work well (a quick impression no doubt from his apx one year in office experience before he began penning it. ) ; there was nothing that he wrote that wasn't right out of the Democrat talking points.

Now there is an interesting endorsement in last months Atlantic Magazine by Andrew Sullivan Goodbye to All That: Why Obama Matters

My impression was that he thought that Obama's campaign is such a symbolic break from the past ,that the symbolism trumps the substance.

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Wondergirl agrees: Ok, c'mon. Just campaign and vote for the guy. He's head and shoulders over the others, literally as well as philosophically.

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Why? What has he done to deserve my vote? What has he done to deserve your vote for "leader of the free world?"

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Originally Posted by tomder55

one thing is for sure . at this point substance has not defined this race

Would a white man who only had local political experience and then less than a full term in the Senate have a chance at being the party nominee ?

Would Hillary be a legit nominee if she was not the wife of a former President ?

Heck ;would a 71 year old women be in consideration for the job ?

I will repeat what I have said ;I read Obama's latest book . That is where I found his policy positions. Beyond the constant pointing out that in his view Washington doesn't work well (a quick impression no doubt from his apx one year in office experience before he began penning it. ) ; there was nothing that he wrote that wasn't right out of the Democrat talking points.

Now there is an interesting endorsement in last months Atlantic Magazine by Andrew Sullivan Goodbye to All That: Why Obama Matters

My impression was that he thought that Obama's campaign is such a symbolic break from the past ,that the symbolism trumps the substance.

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Would a white man who only had local political experience and then less than a full term in the Senate have a chance at being the party nominee ?
I guess that would depend on what kind of message he is sending. Are you trying to say that you don't need a message to get the Kenned's on your side. You don't need a message to win the majority of states and delegets? Just maybe these people are reading something more than his book. Or all you have to be is black( now that is funny!) ?

Good article Tom, in it I read:

“Consider this hypothetical. It's November 2008. A young Pakistani Muslim is watching television and sees that this man—Barack Hussein Obama—is the new face of America. In one simple image, America's soft power has been ratcheted up not a notch, but a logarithm. A brown-skinned man whose father was an African, who grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii, who attended a majority-Muslim school as a boy, is now the alleged enemy. If you wanted the crudest but most effective weapon against the demonization of America that fuels Islamist ideology, Obama's face gets close. It proves them wrong about what America is in ways no words can.”

I agree he would be a crude weapon but his thinking that it would be effective shows the author's ignorance of the situation in the Middle-East.

Dude you need to play runescape:) :) :) :) relly at RuneScape - the massive online adventure game by Jagex Ltd oks

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Why? What has he done to deserve my vote? What has he done to deserve your vote for "leader of the free world?"

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He might not deserve your vote, in your pinion. He gets my vote because I feel he can relate to me.( that is one but not all my reasons) I am not here to convert people just state why I am voting for him. I hope other people take the same stance.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Why? What has he done to deserve my vote? What has he done to deserve your vote for "leader of the free world?"

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Two major "things," paraphrased from obsidianwings.blog.com --

Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored really good legislation on topics that aren't wildly sexy, but do matter (e.g. lead paint controls, nonproliferation, Avian flu, regulating genetic testing, reducing medical malpractice suits the right way, vets' health care). His bills tend to have the following features: they are good and thoughtful bills that try to solve real problems; they are in general not terribly flashy; and they tend to focus on achieving solutions acceptable to all concerned, not by compromising on principle, but by genuinely trying to craft a solution that everyone can get behind.

His legislation is often proposed with Republican co-sponsorship: he is bipartisan in a good way. Obama tries to find people, both Democrats and Republicans, who actually care about a particular issue enough to try to get the policy right, and then he works with them. This does not involve compromising on principle. It does, however, involve preferring getting legislation passed to having a spectacular battle. (This is especially true when one is in the minority party, especially in this Senate: the chances that Obama's bills will actually become law increase dramatically when he has Republican co-sponsors.)

Interesting take:

“Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, founder and president of the non-profit Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny, or BOND, told Cybercast News Service that he doesn't want the first African-American president to hold values that are detrimental to the black community.

"Abortion is genocide," Peterson said. "It has had a greater affect on the African American community than slavery itself. For Barack Obama to support abortion shows a lack of love for the black community and especially for the unborn."

Childress agreed that just being African-American doesn't make Obama the right person to be president.

"Martin Luther King said of his daughter that he didn't want her to be judged by the color of her skin, but by the content of her character," said Childress. "People are applauding Obama because of the color of his skin and not his character."”

Obama's Abortion Stance Hurts Blacks, Say Pro-Life Experts -- 01/08/2008

Why Republicans like Obama and what it means

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Barack Obama is not only popular among Democrats, he's also an appealing figure to many Republicans. Former GOP House member Joe Scarborough, now a host on MSNBC, reports that after every important Obama speech, he is inundated with e-mails praising the speech — with most of them coming from Republicans.

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Why Republicans like Obama and what it means | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

There is and always has been cross-over. That's nothing new NK

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

There is and always has been cross-over. That’s nothing new NK

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I hope some of those that crossover don't think that abortion is genocide and worse than slavery for black people.

Walter Hoye runs the Issues4Life Foundation in the San Francisco Bay area, an organization he said is designed to create and facilitate dialog about life in the African- American community.

"Abortion is the No. 1 cause of death in the African-American community," Hoye told Cybercast News Service. He added that the 2006 census shows that the black population in the United States has fallen below the numbers needed to sustain it.

"We are below the replacement rate," Hoye said. "We don't call it genocide to excite people. But it's a concern we have and it's become an issue that needs to be addressed nationally."

He added that he is hurt and disappointed by Obama's pro-abortion platform

So why aren't they jailing the mothers for murder?

Childress told Cybercast News Service, referring to Obama's vote against the Born Alive Victims Protection Act, a federal law that gives rights to newborns who survive late-term abortion. "Abortion affects the African-American community more than any other ethnic group in the country," said Childress.

Perhaps not needing an abortion in the first place would be the way to go?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Two major "things," paraphrased from obsidianwings.blog.com --

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Thanks Wondergirl, but that still tells me virtually nothing. Based on that paraphrase Bush should be looking a lot better right now.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why Republicans like Obama and what it means


Why Republicans like Obama and what it means | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

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Ah, the emotional factor. I'd rather vote for the best candidate, not the one with that "charms" me the most. The last paragraph speaks volumes:

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Barack Obama is among the most impressive political talents of our lifetime. If he defeats Hillary Clinton, the question for the general election is not whether he can transcend his race but whether he can reach beyond his ideology.

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But Wondergirl... you want to take away something that feels good? Or put it in a bag like garbage? Besides haven't you heard that sex education classes in school aren't successful in lowering rates of pregnancy... so if people aren't learning from those teachings, can we assume that there must be some blatent disregard for the information, a learning disability, or preference for having the precedure over the other options? Or is it simply that many people prefer not to think about or deal with the consequences of their actions until they are forced to?

As long as the option is there for people to put off responsibility... seems like many people are pretty happy not to have to think ahead.

I'm not trying to lump all people into the same category, there will be people who don't fit my above description, and benefit from the option, but I believe those people are certainly less than half.

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Originally Posted by oneguyinohio

you want to take away something that feels good?

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Well, back in my day, most of us were willing to wait for marriage, or at least a solid relationship. Of course, not having birth control devices readily available (some not even invented yet) probably helped. Back then, family and church were major parts of a teen's life. That seems to have changed.

Petting a Siberian tiger probably feels good too, but you won't catch me doing it.

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can we assume that there must be some blatent disregard for the information, a learning disability, or preference for having the precedure over the other options?

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Better would be to assume that there is something wrong with the classes and how the material is taught. Visit classes at your local schools. Talk to teens in your neighborhood. Ask for opinions about and the efficacy of sex ed classes. You will get an eyeful and an earful.

I completely agree Wondergirl. I'm not saying you are wrong. I was trying to imagine what some of the people's reasoning is...

Back when I had one of those sex classes... the teacher blushed and said, "Oh, heck you boys probably no more about this than I do..." He put up a few transparencies naming body parts and that was the end of it.

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Originally Posted by oneguyinohio

I completely agree Wondergirl. I'm not saying you are wrong.

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I know, oneguy. You and I usually agree more than disagree. I was preaching to the masses.

(Wouldn't it be great if everyone had as much sense as you and I do?? )

Now, we need to get this thread back on track with Clint's original question, so some wandering moderator doesn't end it.

I just know Obama would improve the quality of sex education in public schools.