Judy, did yo get my PM?
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Judy, did yo get my PM?
Willing to write up a personal letter explaining what a cat looks like AFTER it's been mauled... from a professional stand point?Quote:
Originally Posted by LadySam
Halifax, could pick you up with bells on.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I am thinking cat got injured. They decided to get someone else to pay vet bills as they could not afford it. Lady is the scape goat so to speak.
At this point I just have to say this.
I love you guys! You all are the best! The very best! Just... no words. I can't describe the emotions I'm feeling right now. Just love, respect, and... well, you're the best! That's all I can say.
Judy, you never cease to amaze me. Special shout out to you. We've had our past scuffles, we don't always agree, but really, you're amazing. So proud to know you and call you friend. Wish I didn't have to do it in writing, words can't convey how I feel.
I thought that too. I still think that. That's the only thing that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Yep, 1 particular one I have in mind, I would need to go to work and retrieve some treatment information, when do you need it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
We have to save Lady! Nothing else will do. Too many have been taken lately. What a great bunch of people on this thread. ALL OF YOU ARE HEROES in my book. Owen passes around doggy kisses as well :)
I agree, to her and Mogrann, I could say thank you one million times and it wouldn't come close to conveying the gratitude I feel. What can I say? "Thank you" and "love" seem too mundane for what I feel right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
There really aren't words. No words can convey the feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Everyone on this thread has been so supportive, helpful. I've always considered the friends on AMHD my family. The test for true friends, and family, is sticking around when the going gets tough.
I've had both friends and family that left when the going got tough. Instead of support, or even just listening, or being there, they ran. True family, true friends, they stick around.
Everyone on this thread, they're not only true friends, they're family.
WG, don't correct the punctuation, I wrote quickly and I didn't think, I just wrote from the heart. Surely punctuation doesn't matter at times like this. :)
Love you all. Those words seem so unimportant. I wish I could show you how I feel in person. These written words, they seem so... unimportant. I hope you all know how important they really are.
Lady Sam, as soon as you can?
But the leg wasn't chewed up -- it was smashed like something heavy had fallen on the cat or the cat had fallen/landed wrong and had broken its leg. The bone was sticking out, Bella said. Do I remember this right? The vet interview would be critical to get and find out what the leg looked like and why he had to amputate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
And a dog would bite and hold on, not fall on top of. Where was the cat when Lady went over the fence?
Not only would a dog bite and hold on they would shake typically.
I'm wondering if there was any other damage, lacerations, punctures?
Cats have been known to get caught in some precarious predicaments, entangled in something like a fence, fan belts, and they don't always land on all fours when they fall.
Did the witness actually see Lady attack the cat or just go over the fence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
And from my angle on this the owner may not KNOW what happened. Cat limping around, no one notices, dog comes over the fence, witness or owner or someone races over - cat has broken/shattered leg! This would be approached as "what if, do you think there's a possibility ..."
That's why I asked about the injuries to the leg, how the dog and cat got separated after the incident. An attack is an attack. Play, chasing, grabbing are totally different things. As you know I have dogs, big dogs. I know when they attack something (including toys) and when one of them gets hurt by mistake.
One of the very important aspects in something like this is to have your suspicions but not make assumptions - do you know what I mean?
EDIT: I came back because I was afraid this sounded harsh. I just mean not to jump to conclusions. Look at this with the eyes of a stranger. If you didn't know either party (including Lady, no wait, that's three parties) what would you think, what would you want to know?
A question is going to be whether Lady has jumped the fence before and if she did, what was done to confine her after that "jump." It's not one of the top 10, but it's a question I would ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Just did - for whatever reason my PM's are coming to me by way of Mars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
From a "professional angle" not a good idea - too generalized. NOW - a letter from someone familiar with the breed who owns the breed, trains, cares for, whatever - THAT'S helpful.
The problem is that no one is saying "mauling" and you don't want to go there. It's a broken leg, no more and no less.
Now - a letter, brief and to the point, stating your credentials and that it would be impossible for the dog to "attack" the cat and break its leg without breaking the skin - that would be helpful!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Thanks, Alty - but anyone on here would do the same for me.
And you and I clash because we really are so alike. Aside from the Canadian accent, of course. <smirk.
According to the vet report there are no other imjuries aside from a broken leg. No puncture wounds etc... Good question, how DID the cat get away?
Good point JKT, don't put words into their mouths, the term mauled has never come up.
I am putting myself in two sets of shoes so to speak. Cat lady's shoes and a bystander's shoes. In cat Lady's shoes I am upset that my cat is hurt, I'm freaking out. She apparently didn't see the attack, but someone is telling her what he saw, my dog jumping a fence and pouncing on the cat...
As an outsider looking in, I'm just plain confused.
Here is what My legal Aid sent to me from her blackberry: I looked at our "dog law" and the most recent one I could find was from 2006 . Whenever it was last updated, it's a ing mess of an ordinance. Convenient how they don't mention cats... There is also no general animal control ordinance it only addressed dogs. There is a "mitigating factor" line in the ordinance that says "a dog shall not be considered vicious if it attacks a "trespasser" "... however "trespasser" is not defined. So it could very well be another animal. I think that's a very important thing that we could conceivably argue, because in the very next sentence under "mitigating" circumstances, where it addresses the dog being teased or abused by the *person* attacked.
Did you determine that your dog was confined in some way to your property when the attack occurred? In a fenced yard or tethered? And was he registered with the city? Registration shouldn't do any kind of harm other than to get you a fine for failing to abide by that part of the law. The nasty part of this by-law is that animal control can kill a vicious dog on site. I know they tell folks that they'll use their head and not kill a dog unless they catch it being vicious (ie, in the heat of an attack), but that is certainly NOT what this law allows for. There are no provisions for punishment for removing the dog to another location to keep it away from authorities -- unless that's in another ordinance/by-law that I can't find. I wouldn't bring her home right now, though.
You need to find out precisely what the animal control officers say that you've done. Make them give it to you in writing, and go from there. Don't accept the lady's bill for her cat... that can be construed as you accepting responsibility for paying it. Stay in touch over the weekend, I will be doing a lot of work from home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
And you should be confused. Everyone should be confused. It's when people THINK they know that there are issues.
Confusion is not a bad thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
All of this is excellent - being "silent" about cats is good, far better than addressing them.
Cats MAY not be mentioned because they are the same as wild animals - rabbits, deer, squirrels. They MAY not be considered to be domestic animals.
Curious to see what happens next -
I agree, sounds hopeful. She expressed her disgust in the case earlier in the message, I think I like her.
So agreed, that letter will do nothing to help.
So IF cats are categorized as non-domestic, this would be viewed in a somewhat different light? I've only ever had to deal with lawyers and courts as far as child support and custody go, I do read the law boards here quite often, I find them interesting.
Is there a burden of proof element here, if so who does it lie with?
I'm really just curious. My dogs are fenced when outdoors, my neighbors dogs are not.
I could actually have a similar situation here, I hope not, but it is not impossible.
Your legal aid representative sounds awesome.
Or maybe outdoor cats (i.e. cats that are allowed to roam outdoors, even if they have an owner) are considered non-domestic? There's no cat licensing in your area, Bella?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
There is no licensing here, in NY - they are considered to be semi-domestic animals (or feral. As you know, lots of feral cats in NY).
Wish they would have licensing requirements but they don't. My dogs need rabies shots. Meanwhile cats are roaming around, hanging out with rabid raccoons...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadySam
Yes, if Lady had injured another dog, a domestic animal, it COULD be construed as dangerous behavior. A cat, non-domesticated, is the same as a squirrel, rabbit, whatever (I've run out of the names of wild animals). The dog is not carted off if it injures a cat. In my area, interestingly enough, any animal that takes down a deer is subject to seizure and euthanasia.
I once got into a standoff with Animal Control at a Summer house with my GSD, my parents' GSD, my sisters' GSD, the neighbors' GSD - and a deer leg in the roadway. I knew where "our" dogs were. My neighbors did not. Apparently all GSDs looked alike to Animal Control (beige, black, large, small), and he was NOT taking ANY of our dogs anywhere. He eventually gave up but gave me the evil eye every time he saw me. Animal Control Officers in my area don't necessarily have an education in anything pertaining to animals - including humane treatment of animals. With luck this is Bella's situation. "I have a gun and a badge and so I'm going to intimidate you."
I don't intimidate, and I've stood toe to toe with some, particularly in dog bite situations.
The injured party always has to prove the cause of the injury - it's not innocent until proven guilty, but there must be sufficient proof. I'm not sure that's the case here, but I wouldn't know until I talked to people. What people think or think they saw or were told is totally immaterial. For example, Bella is a witness to the usual behavior and temperament of her dog - she is not a witness to this incident. (Did I say accident earlier? It's not. It's an incident.)
If you would hear a commotion and your (fenced) dogs were in a fight in your (fenced) yard with the neighbor's dogs you have met your burden of proof - you're fenced and somehow they got in. NOW - if there's a gaping hole in your fence and you knew it particularly if you caused it, different story.
I'm chomping on the bit to get into this. I really am! Anyone own an airplane?
Question. Does the fact that Lady was in the fenced in area of the yard when Bella came home make a difference?
She was in the fenced in area when Bella left, and in the fenced in area when Bella came home. We only have the word of the cat lady that she put Lady back into Bella's fenced in area.
Judy, I have a toy airplane, and a toy helicopter with a remote. It actually flies. It's so cool! Somehow I don't think that will help though. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Alty, you've got it - all Bella knows is what the neighbor (or neighbors) have said.
Bella wasn't covered in blood, agitated, anything else - I would gather.
AND - again, it depends on the direction a statement would take in person - if your animal, any animal, broke my animal's leg and jumped a fence in order to do so I would not be putting your animal in your yard. I'd be really too busy dialing the Police and Animal Control to do so.
Of course, if the cat lady hadn't put Lady back, well, that could be a bigger problem because could be (minimally) incarcerated.
I said in the beginning - how do "we" know how the cat's leg got broken?
Completely agree.
From talking to Bella, the cat lady stated that she called Lady by name, Lady came running to her, tail wagging, cat lady grabbed her collar, and put Lady back in the fenced in area.
To me that's the biggest bull I've ever heard. If the cat lady is telling the truth she didn't see the attack. But, she supposedly knew that Lady was the one that injured her cat. If I were in her shoes, you couldn't have paid me to approach the dog (one that she claimed to be terrified of) call it by name, and then put it back in it's fenced in area. I would have left, called the pound, and had them pick up the dog.
It just doesn't make sense. Also, no puncture wounds on the cat, none at all. This just isn't adding up as an attack. In fact, I doubt that Lady even left her fenced in area. I think Lady is just a convenient scape goat.
And a way to get the cat's medical bills paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Do we know if the cat owner had any previous dealings, positive or negative, with Lady? Or has made comments about various dog breeds (hearsay evidence, but maybe useful).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And that's what an investigator proves (or doesn't prove) - and keep in mind, the cat lady MIGHT think she saw what she didn't see.
I find someone dead in my backyard, I'm standing over the body, the Police arrive -
Put cat in the place of someone; put injured cat in the place of body.
No wonder I read Grisham and other legal thrillers. Appeals to my Teutonic Scorpio-ness.
AND why was her concern to get Lady back in the fence before tending to her cat, unless someone else was carting the cat off to the vet at the same time.
My first thought would have been to get my cat to the vet while someone called animal control.
But who knows what she may have been thinking at the time.
It still doesn't add up.
And puzzling too that there are no lacerations or punctures, dogs have teeth.
The ordinance that I found may be dated but section 2 is interesting.
I've been doing a lot of reading today.
Dog Owners' Liability Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. D.16
I don't have an airplane either, but I'll chip in some gas money for anyone that does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Grisham gives me a rash - I just can't get into anything he writes (probably including his grocery list).
Anyway - Bella, I thought you wouldn't appreciate the 3AM phone call but I was thinking about this in the middle of the night.
If you are agreeable I could interview the cat lady by phone - I do it all the time. Often I leave a card and the person calls me back. Sometimes I have a "bad" address and there is no other way. A lot of times one party or the other is out of State. (I'll drive 6 miles one way but no more than that.) All sorts of reasons.
We'd need to be very clear, though. I would send you my professional report as an investigator, not as a friend. I find out what happened, how it happened - if it's not good for you, well, it's your report and you can line a bird cage with it, but I still have to send it. When I testify (which I do somewhat often) I have to be able to say that I've NEVER changed or slanted an investigation.
What I'm saying is that what I find out is what I find out - good, bad, indifferent. Honestly, I think at this point nothing could hurt you. She says it was Lady, she wants you to pay the bill, unless Lady jumps the fence on a weekly basis and strangles cats I don't see that it can get worse for you.
On the other hand - I know how to question in a manner which keeps your feet out of the fire (so to speak). I know not to ask a question if I'm not "pretty sure" what the answer will be.
And the cat lady may not talk to me.
Also the witness and anyone else you would like interviewed.
Think about it - ? It's what I do for some pretty big, all respectable law firms. If you DO decide to turn my report over to your homeowners company my report IS admissible. Of course, as I said above, if it's not in your favor, line the bird cage with it.
We've had a checkered past, you and I, but I really would like to help you and Lady get out of this - think about it.
If your law allows it, I could tape record the conversations (you'd have to check with your local Police Department. I don't believe the Internet) but that's no big deal. I take conversations all the time without recording them.
How, you say? I worked as a shorthand reporter in the Court system for a number of years - for the Feds.
The vet should be interviewed too.
(A Time To Kill was Grisham's first and best. Recent ones are forgettable.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Absolutely - but his notes are worth more than an interview. Would he talk to me, an unrelated party? Probably not - remember, he's the cat lady's Vet.
Probably one important detail would be to find out the condition/appearance of the cat's leg before amputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Absolutely - does the Vet have an OPINION about what caused the injury? Falling off a roof leaves different "damage" than having a dog play "make a wish" with your leg.
Where's Bella? Working, I guess (which is, in theory, what I'm doing).
I'm checking in from my phone. I've been staying at the friends house with lady this weekend, e has been very upset by the whole thing, thought it might be nice to get her away and visit our lady. Judy can I Call you on Tuesday?
Just want to add something, but I would still check before you go ahead. About taping the conversation. I have many telemarketers calling here, and they always tape the conversation. By law they have to tell you that they're taping, but, if you're told, it's legal, as far as I know. But again, I'm not 100% sure. Also, telemarketing and legal business are two different animals, so it may not apply to this sort of thing.
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