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Originally Posted by excon

Hello shaz:

You bring up two excellent points. I think I can handle them with ONE argument... There's NO disagreement about kids and drugs and the damage addiction causes. You're right too, accessibility IS the problem...

However, the drug laws haven't reduced availability. Kids know where to get it.. It's EASY. At the VERY least, popping down to the local pharmacy, as you put it, will at LEAST require the production of an ID saying the user is 21. Will kids cheat??? Of course, they will.. But, at least there's a LAYER between your kids and dangerous drugs, where there isn't one now...

Lemme also tell you about WHY kids think that dangerous drugs aren't really that dangerous... Clearly, they SEE that the government is LYING about the dangers of marijuana, so they're probably LYING about the dangers of heroine too.... Isn't there a story about that?? Something about a wolf???

Let me also mention that along with legalization we should provide treatment ON DEMAND for drug addiction... Today, even IF an addict wanted to get off drugs, there's no place for him to go.

Finally, if drugs are legalized, the manufacture can be regulated where there won't be any ugly stuff in the drugs people take.... And I suppose I should mention that clean needles would be available, and that's got to cut down on aids and hepatitis..

Sorry. I guess I used more than one argument...

excon

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Excellent . Extremely well done.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I've got one more argument, then I'll shut up..

Some say there's LOTS of people, who are chomping at the bit, but WAITING on the sidelines for drugs to become legal....

Do YOU know anybody like that? I don't. Everybody I know who WANTS to use drugs, is using drugs.

That's not to say that there won't be a few people who will try drugs for the first time... However, IF we provide treatment on demand, I believe there will be MORE people getting OFF drugs than are getting ON. Yes, addiction IS as bad as we think it is.

excon

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Don't be shutin' up. You're doing great.

Exy, while I do agree with the points you are making, what about the street users? Legalizing drugs isn't going to stop people from using dangerously and buying off the street. Especially kids. Just like illegal cigarettes, not sure if you guys are having a "problem" with that in the U.S but there have been more arrests in the past few months for illegal cigarettes. People still buy them on the street because they are cheaper. The government is saying these ciggy's are dangerous, but everyone here knows one ciggy can't be more dangerous than another, and it's only because the government is losing so much money of smokes that this harsh ban and penalty came into effect. People buy the smokes 200 for $20, and fine of $20 per smoke.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

Legalizing drugs isn't going to stop people from using dangerously and buying off the street.

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Hello again, Bella:

Take the profit out of it, and street dealers will disappear.

excon

Exy,

But just like illegal cigarettes, there will be profit to be made, just like boot legging.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Bella:

Take the profit out of it, and street dealers will disappear.

excon

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Nah, there will still be street dealers to deal to the tikes who are considered underage.

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Originally Posted by excon

Lemme also tell you about WHY kids think that dangerous drugs aren't really that dangerous... Clearly, they SEE that the government is LYING about the dangers of marijuana, so they're probably LYING about the dangers of heroine too.... Isn't there a story about that?? Something about a wolf???

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Exy, how many teens do you personally know who are on drugs? Let me tell you from experience that the teens don't care about the government, the ones on drugs don't even really KNOW about the government.

They are taking drugs to replace something missing in their lives, they are taking drugs to gain acceptance into a culture that promises them "love" and "acceptance." It has NOTHING to do with the government.

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Originally Posted by J_9

It has NOTHING to do with the government.

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Hello again, J:

Oh, not so, my friend...

Kids know pot is illegal. They know the government is behind that. They know pot SHOULDN'T be illegal because it does NOTHING bad. They SURMISE, that since heroine is also illegal, maybe there's nothing wrong it either.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the government...

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, J:

Oh, not so, my friend...

Kids know pot is illegal. They know the government is behind that. They know pot SHOULDN'T be illegal because it does NOTHING bad. They SURMISE, that since heroine is also illegal, maybe there's nothing wrong it either.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the government...

excon

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WRONG! Sorry, that's the democrat in you talking. I'm not talking about either democrat or republican, but from the TEEN point of view. Remember, I not only have teens at home, but deal with drug addicted teens on a nightly basis.

It's sad really. Teens use drugs because there is something missing at home. It's a peer pressure sort of thing. If they use drugs, they are accepted by a certain percentage of their peers. They gain love and respect, if you want to call it that, by these "friends" of theirs. Love and respect are something that they feel is missing at home, from their parents and other family figures.

Look at gangs for example. Kids join gangs to gain love and acceptance, they call it a "family" because they are missing something at home.

Let me ask you how many teens you know, personally, who are on drugs. I gave drug tests to 10 women last night and had to have an indepth "interview" on why they used drugs. Not ONE of them told me it had to do with the government. They all told me that it was because "he would love me if I smoke the crack with him." or "I needed a way to escape from the demands of my parents." etc.

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Originally Posted by J_9

They gain love and respect, if you want to call it that, by these "friends" of theirs. Love and respect are something that they feel is missing at home, from their parents and other family figures.

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Hello again, J:

So, let's lock them up. Maybe they'll find respect and family figures in the slam..

excon

Ex, have you ever been spit upon, bit, kicked and attacked in the ER by someone on PCP? I have.

Have you ever had to intubate a baby weighing less than 3 pounds addicted to crack who later died? I have.

While I see your point, I believe that only CERTAIN drugs should be legalized. Mary Jane and possibly Shrooms. But to say that ALL drugs should be legalized is a very slippery slope.

You are looking at it from the legal standpoint, which you know legalities very well. I am looking at it from the medical standpoint, which I know very well.

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Originally Posted by J_9

You are looking at it from the legal standpoint, which you know legalities very well. I am looking at it from the medical standpoint, which I know very well.

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Hello again, J:

We DON'T disagree. Drug abuse is a HEALTH problem - NOT a legal one. In MY view, legalization will REDUCE the incidents you refer to - NOT increase them. To believe that it would INCREASE them, you'd have to believe that the drug war is WORKING, in that it keeps dangerous drugs OUT of the hands of children...

I don't believe that, and I don't believe you do either... I think you SUPPORT the drugwar because you don't know of ANY other solution - and legalization DOESN'T sound like a solution... Upon first glance it doesn't sound like it to me either, but, it IS.

excon

PS> Yes, when I came home from Vietnam, I experienced spittle in the face...

We need to ADDRESS drug problems. I think everyone can agree with that. Drug addicts are dangerous not only to themselves but to those around them. This is where I think education would be good, but honest education. Not telling kids that their baby will die or they will miss a tea party with grandma because they smoked pot. That's pretty darn easy to see through... it was for me.

My issue is the countless cases of over-zealous SWAT teams or police raids that ended up the death of innocent people, and fire-fights between cartel gangs in central America that have killed countless innocents as collateral damage. The death of completely innocent people as a result of this misguided war on drugs means a lot more to me than any teen who's addicted to crack. It's not that I don't feel sorry for those addicted teens, but it's not as heartbreaking as innocent deaths. Sorry.

And I'm very aware that many children lose their parents to drug addictions. My niece lost my brother to meth. We all lost my brother to meth. (He isn't dead, but his soul is pretty much gone). This war on drugs is clearly doing precisely jack when we see addicts left and right.

So maybe I argue not for the LEGALITY of drugs, just the end of this "war". Educate the masses on the reality of things. THAT is how you fight battles.

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Originally Posted by J_9

But to say that ALL drugs should be legalized is a very slippery slope.

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Hello again, J:

We're CLOSER to each other than you might think... You suggested earlier, that because I'm a Democrat, that I probably have this druggie, left wing, hippy idea that everybody should just do their own thing...

Nothing could be farther from the truth.. Yes, I smoke pot, but I DON'T want children to have access to it. In fact, I'm about as ANTI-DRUG as you get. So, I don't want you to think of legalization as SURRENDER, because it's absolutely NOT..

I'm fine if you want to call it drug war phase #2. But, THIS phase shouldn't be fought with cops, courts and prison. It should be fought with whatever your profession brings to the table, and the TRUTH. But, the OBJECTIVE is the same, and that's to REDUCE drug abuse.

Let's talk about the TRUTH for a minute. Do you know that when we FINALLY started telling the TRUTH about cigarettes, we reduced its use by HALF? Yes, it took over 25 years, but it WORKED... There are now about 150 MILLION Americans who DON'T smoke, who WOULD have without the truth. Do you know how many cases of cancer were prevented by telling the truth? How about heart attacks? Do you know that we DID that, WITHOUT putting a single person in jail??

excon

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Originally Posted by J_9

Kids join gangs to gain love and acceptance, they call it a "family" because they are missing something at home.

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So what can be done about that?

Obviously there will always be a black marcket not just for drugs but for smokes,alcohol and stolen electrical equipment.

We all know the health risks of smoking and drinking those figures hold a bigger death toll per year then anyy other drug even considering percentage of useres. So I don't think that you should be a crminal for choosing a different substance to use then alcohol.

Alcohol is sold but not everyone is addicted to it, you can use or abuse drugs.

If you become an adict then it is a health issue, and the money they use on the 'waR ON DRUGS' SHOULD BE SPENT on health care for addicts.

In the UK there is brilliant surport, although drugs are iligal you won't go to jail just for possestion, you just get a warning. You can seek counceling for free, and get perscription drugs for free to help you over come your adiction.

Legalise not criminlise.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, J:

We're CLOSER to each other than you might think... You suggested earlier, that because I'm a Democrat, that I probably have this druggie, left wing, hippy idea that everybody should just do their own thing...

Nothing could be farther from the truth.. Yes, I smoke pot, but I DON'T want children to have access to it. In fact, I'm about as ANTI-DRUG as you get. So, I don't want you to think of legalization as SURRENDER, because it's absolutely NOT..

I'm fine if you wanna call it drug war phase #2. But, THIS phase shouldn't be fought with cops, courts and prison. It should be fought with whatever your profession brings to the table, and the TRUTH. But, the OBJECTIVE is the same, and that's to REDUCE drug abuse.

Let's talk about the TRUTH for a minute. Do you know that when we FINALLY started telling the TRUTH about cigarettes, we reduced its use by HALF?? Yes, it took over 25 years, but it WORKED... There are now about 150 MILLION Americans who DON'T smoke, who WOULD have without the truth. Do you know how many cases of cancer were prevented by telling the truth? How about heart attacks? Do you know that we DID that, WITHOUT putting a single person in jail???

excon

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So which is it really where you stand on this subject??


Legalization ?

Legalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or

Decriminalization ?

Decriminalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hello again, dad:

I don't think I stuttered... LEGALIZATION!

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

I don't think I stuttered... LEGALIZATION!

excon

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Just making sure because it sounded like you were making a case for decriminalization. Whereby there are still some controls in place (like age of consent and age to purchase) but penalties removed for the consenting adult that wishs to embibe.

Im more for decriminalization and a portion of the profits being returned to rehab then outright legalization.

J-9 makes a valid point. The fact is that there are some drugs that are too dangerous to legalize .

We can be against the widespread legalization of dangerous drugs AND at the same time be against the incarceration of addicts .

You say you are adament against it being legal for minors .Glad to see there are some lines in the sand we won't cross .But the truth is that minors get their hands on controlled substances including cigarettes and tobacco ;pot ,narcotics anyway. So what would you do?. Treat the kid and make the seller the criminal.

Bueno.. that is my position defined for all illegal drug use.