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I had answered you question already as to what I believe can be done. And if you feel the need to arm yourself and aren't comfortable or can't purchase a gun there are plenty of nonleathal ways to do it. Pepper spray is but one of many. A stun gun is yet another. Check your local laws if you can carry or need a permit to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Our nation bought into the notion of disposable youth as a policy in 1973.
Sorry I realize you did. I am venting as I have started to become overwhelmed feeling like this needs to be fixed and now. I have refused to read any news or watch it as it is affecting me negatively with my emotions. I did not mean to disrespect what you contributed at all.
I'm wondering if violent video games figure into this somehow -- say, if Adam Lanza didn't work, was home all day mostly in his room (playing video games?), was fairly impressionable, considered life disposable as per what he saw in movies or TV or on video games... Just thinking...
His mother apparently didn't work, was collecting a lot of money from alimony, so Adam didn't have to work either and maybe, based on what is coming out about his inability to relate to others, he wasn't able to hold down a job anyway.
Mogrann, you can't let this affect you. Mourn for the loss, sympathize, but don't let this put you in a bad place when you've made so much progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
This is one person. One! One person that decided to do something evil. Yes, it was pure evil, and it shouldn't have happened, but you're reacting as if the entire world is made up of evil people.
That's not the case at all. This is one man, one unstable man, and sadly, he accessed weapons, one weapon that can shoot 100 rounds a minute (all those for guns, tell me again why anyone not defending your country should have access to a weapon like this?) and he killed innocent people. One man, that sadly had access to very dangerous weapons.
Everyone thinks I'm against guns. I'm not. If you want a weapon to protect yourself, I agree with that. I'm not against that. What I'm against is people owning weapons that can shoot 100 rounds a minute. Why? There's no need for that.
I do support stricter gun laws in the US. That doesn't mean that I don't think people should have the right to arm themselves, I just don't think they have the right to arm themselves as if they're going to war with the entire world. :(
I read Wondergirls post and thought how dare she blame video games. (I am a gamer). Then I thought I am looking for answers. I want this fixed. If it is something I like and it truly is the cause how can I discount it because I like it. I think that is the attitude we all need. To listen to each other, and figure this out.
Maybe it is not all or nothing and black and white thinking. Please hear me out. For some people violent games are okay yet for others it is not due to their own private issues, mental health etc. Same as gun ownership. Same as treatement for mental health issues. I have been looking for one fix. Someone to say do this now it is all better, but that is more of the black and white thinking. Maybe it is a bit of everything. It comes down to what the person needs. Now that I have said that how do we do this so everyone gets what they need. What kinds of safety nets do we need for parents, for caregivers, for schools, for doctors, etc. We as a society need to wake up and become a village for each child.
I will admit I have been on edge due to the person having a personality disorder.. that is what I have. It is scaring me so bad. I am trying to realize I am not that person, I have skills etc. The fear is still there.
I hope I have made sense in this post. This tragedy has affected me deeply as it has many others. Lets just be kind to each other... and I must say this thread has been very respectful. And kind.
My understanding is that the AR was left in his car so the fact that he had access to it really didn't matter. It still seems that they are reporting that he had used 2 handguns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
As far as "100 rounds a minute"... That is nothing. You can do that with most any handgun. So again, it wasn't an "automatic" that he had. An "Automatic" AR has a cyclic rate of about 750-800 rounds a minute... that is the military version that most citizens do not have. Do not confuse the rifles simply because of how they look.
Thank you Alty. I have been doing some distracting to lower my emotions. There have been lots of good points being mentioned and I think it is helpful. I will not be reading the news though as that is counter productive for me at this point in time.
I have two gamer sons. My younger one started when he was 7 and grew up on D&D and Atari. He also painted miniature gaming figures for a few years (and may still do that for fun and relaxation). He is part of a gaming web site and writes for it, develops adventures the gamers can go on with their characters. I am in no way against gaming. And even violent games can be played and handled mentally/emotionally by most gamers. And part of my library cataloging job including helping our gamer staff member select, purchase, and catalog video games for patron use.Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
But this guy Adam Lanza couldn't handle life. So I wondered if he found his life in gaming.
According to the M.E. Adam mostly used the Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range.Quote:
Originally Posted by odinn7
I just looked before and it's still confusing. I have to wonder if anyone really knows for sure.
Mogrann, you are one amazing lady. This story is upsetting to all of us. What especially frustrates me is all the inaccurate information that has come out. I am hoping there will be a clear and truthful story that eventually emerges.
From CNN --
"Lanza was found dead next to three guns, a semi-automatic .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle and two pistols made by Glock and Sig Sauer, a law enforcement source told CNN. All belonged to his mother.
Carver, who performed autopsies on seven of the victims, said the wounds he knew about were caused by a "long weapon." Asked by a reporter whether the rifle was the primary weapon, he responded, 'Yes.' "
My husband has two shotguns, one takes 3 bullets but can go up to 5, and takes around 2 minutes to reload. Not 100 shots a minute, but 5 at most, with time to reload. Plenty of time to get away if my husband goes postal. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by odinn7
He also has another shotgun, one bullet, it's a breach. One shot, open, put another shot in, and so on.
He also has a semiautomatic 22, 10 shots per clip, but doesn't do a lot of damage.
Still, any of these weapons would protect us if someone decided to breach our home.
That's all I'm saying. I don't think anyone needs a weapon that can shoot 100 rounds in a minute. Not unless 100 people invade your home at one time.
Remember, I'm in Canada, we have very strict gun laws. We're also not in the news every few months because of another massacre. Just saying.
Wondergirl I think we all are amazing on this site. Look at how many passionate people are here with all different thoughts and beliefs. All I see is respect and caring. Yes we disagree but no one is being aggressive, angry or bullying. This site has allowed me to disagree with others over small things and the world did not end. I firmly believe we can figure this out here how to start a movement for change. We are only a few people but as we change and others see what we are doing it will grow. It can only be for the better for the future.
I totally agree, mogrann.
I suppose that is state dependent as well. My state requires background checks on all firearms aside from blackpowder.Quote:
On rifles, no background check is needed
That firearm is also a popular hunting rifle. It just looks military.Quote:
According to the M.E. Adam mostly used the Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range.
Now, the problem In my opinion, is not gun control or lack thereof, but the reduction in the mental health fields since the 70s (I think that was around the time). Many state mental health hospitals were closed and folks without good insurance were lacking in mental health assistance. Our mentally ill were pushed into the streets without counseling and/or medications. It is also, to many, a stigma to be mentally ill so many do not seek treatment but rather self medicate.
Cain beat his brother Able with a club and no one held the club responsible. You cannot hold the firearm responsible. It did not grow legs and go in and shoot those children. A mentally ill man did.
Another focus is on the media. The media turns these people into overnight celebrities in the eyes of other mentally disturbed people. Just look at the attention these people get from our media. Days and days of psychobabble by the news anchors. An ill person is typically going to kill themselves one way or another, but if they can go down with a celebrity type status, hel! Why not!
You have to hold evil responsible, not the gun. Cain was evil, not his club.
You see there is always someone who wants to focus on minute detail and split hairs. The fire rate of these "semi-automatic" weapons is not that much lower than automatic weapons, the real difference is magazine capacity, and the need to reload.. In this case the victims had multiple gun shot wounds indicating a high rate of fire, This person caused multiple gunshot wounds in twenty eight victims in a short space of time, a few minutes at most. So you know what, let semi-automatic hand guns and rifles be banned along with automatic weapons, there is no need for these weapons to be in the hands of the general community. You want to defend yourself, there are weapons which will give you protection without the need to blow holes in your victim, you can even get a six shot .22 magnum hand gun, more than enough fire power for the average personQuote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Gah... Have I mentioned how Wiki is not a reliable source? I could write a wiki article about treating gunshot wounds with my little ER experience.
With that said, you may not need a permit to purchase, but you still have to pass a background check using the Form 4473.
I'm not trying to split hairs, just speaking the obvious if you have any knowledge of firearms. These semi autos fire at a high rate, yes, but not near the speed of an auto. Magazine capacity is not really an issue as the general public is not allowed to purchase high capacity magazines legally. These are typically reserved for military and police.
I will not use a .22 for protection as it is more likely to pi$$ the perpetrator off rather than kill or seriously wound him depending on what he is wearing. Yes, I said wearing. A thick heavy leather coat will be enough to simply tick him off rather than wound. For a .22 to be adequate, your perpetrator must be almost directly on top of you for it to be effective. My 10 year old uses a .22 to snake hunt and shoot cans with. I carry a 38 or a 357, depending on where I am going and what I feel like carrying that day.
I choose to be able to protect myself. If someone breaks into my home I am not going to wait 8 - 10 - 15 minutes or more for the police to arrive. By that time my daughter could be raped, my son could be killed. I have the right to defend my home, family and children.
I have guns yes. I even have automatic weapons, I paid for that tax stamp and I passed the background check. I don't have autos because I'm some lunatic, but because I come from a long line of collectors. Many of our firearms are in museums in our area.
Because I have autos, and I have many guns, does that mean I'm going to open up on a shopping mall, or a hospital, or a school? No, I'm not mentally ill. We need to stop focusing on the gun. It did not sprout legs and walk into the school and open fire. A disturbed person did.
Shouldn't we focus on mental health? Should we bring back state mental facilities? This all started with the closing of mental health facilities. Look at Kent State for example.
Yes that seems to be a common denominator in recent mass murders here. A 20 something zombified white male who the system decided needed psychotropic drugs wheter really required or not .Quote:
Now, the problem In my opinion, is not gun control or lack thereof, but the reduction in the mental health fields since the 70s
Blaming guns for violence is like blaming forks and spoons for obesity.
- I am not impressed with the press. In their rush to report anything about this incident ,there has been more misinformation reported than fact. The litany would be comic if it wasn't so tragic.
I just don't understand why people are so quick to blame the gun. It cannot function of its own accord. It cannot grow legs and walk into a building and commit a murder. A person has to do that.
Why aren't we focusing on the people who commit these crimes rather than the inanimate objects?
Rather than changing the laws regarding gun control, why don't we try to regulate the mental health field?
I recently took a survey for my daughter's social work class. It was a blind survey. It took 2 hours to complete. I was shocked at some of the questions! The majority of them referred to things such as hurting children an animals etc. We need to bring mental health care back and affordable for everyone.
Forget the firearms... tell me which one of the most recent mass murderer's were declared sane.
That is a challenge. I doubt any of you could actually name one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Hello Tom,
How about we put this ridiculous fallacy to bed right away.
You seems to like the circular reasoning. Spoons don't go around shoving food into people's mouths. Do you know any people who want to claim that spoons go around feeding people?
Let's put another popular fallacy to bed. The idea than an exception proves the rule.
There was a man in my city not long ago who died when his car it a tree.It turned out that he was drunk behind the wheel. This is despite a concerted effort by the police over a number of years crack down heavily on heavily on drink driving. It is pretty obvious the law doesn't work because it didn't stop this person from drink driving.
No it didn't stop him, but it cut the number of drink driving accidents and deaths by nearly 80 percent over the two years. I am sure you see the parallel to the fallacy you put forward elsewhere.Do you have any others?
Tut
Meanwhile 10 were shot Friday in Chi-town demonstrating yet again that strict gun control fails to prevent or deter criminal misuse of guns by criminals.
Show me then where gun laws in this country have prevented or even deterred gun crimes ;or put that ridiculous fallacy to rest.Quote:
No it didn't stop him, but it cut the number of drink driving accidents and deaths by nearly 80 percent over the two years. I am sure you see the parallel to the fallacy you put forward. Do you have any others?
No disrespect taken. I just didn't want to rewrite it again (Im lazy) lolQuote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
That is not a fallacy, you are asking for empirical verification. As far as I know the evidence suggests that the laws are largely ineffectual. That is just what I am thinking, but you would have to look at the data and conduct some type of comparison study.
Without such a study one would think that your laws are too weak to make a significant difference. Any others?
Im going to address a few things here. For one thing you need to realize how normal it is to feel something when there are situations in this world like what has happened. If you didn't feel something then that would cross a line. When you look in the mirror please remind yourself your normal with a few tweaks. We all have them. We even have a long running thread about those tweaks. It can be found by looking up the word "peeve". We all have something. And the fact that you realize that your experiencing a response is normal. By expressing yourself and your beliefs your helping yourself to understand who you are and where your going. Those are all good things. Try not to beat yourself up for allowing the situation because there is nothing any of us can do. It has already been done. It is up to all of us to support those that survive in our own way and to express our "peeve" over how it is dealt with. It is all part of the big mix and what makes the world an interesting place. You are part of that world and you are part of our world here at AMHD. We may be divided on the micro issues but all in all we stand together as a people. If you look we are not as unique as you think. There are many that do good and spread good thoughts every day in silence.Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Onto the gamers issue. I play video games. I have been for more years then Im going to mention. I play fps games. (first person shooter) The ones I won't play are the ones that are realistic in nature. Those that resemble the real world. I believe they contribute to the desensetizing of the soul. After you have seen real life action so many times it no longer holds the same shock value. That is why the ones I play are fantasy character types or have monsters in them. They are not some of the more popular ones like Men of War or Call of Duty and others that depict real persons in real worlds. How many times have we heard that something is bad for you when taken too much. Everything from too much intake of foods to porn. So lets not throw a blanket over the gaming issue until it has been studied over the long haul.
Would a study by Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy suffice ? Not only does it find that the answer to their question "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? " is NO Instead it finds a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.Quote:
Without such a study one would think that your laws are too weak to make a significant difference.
the burden of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal
more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, especially
since they argue public policy ought to be based on
that mantra.To bear that burden would at the very least
require showing that a large number of nations with more
guns have more death and that nations that have imposed
stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions
in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are
not observed when a large number of nations are compared
across the world.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf
They go further and note that the adoption of Concealed Carry laws results in the reduction of violent crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Suffice for what? I already pointed out that I'm not sure about the empirical evidence. So yes, this was the type of study I was talking about. If you asking me what I think I will read it and get back to you,
Tom you like to point out the straw man argument, so perhaps you might understand that what you have posted was never a confirm commitment on my part, one way or the other. It is clear from my post that I am only guessing about the data. Again, this was never my preferred position.
I was actually pointing out that your statement has nothing top do with fallacies. This was my firm commitment. You were asking an empirical question. I then went into some speculation about possible findings in relation to the available data.
Tut
Tom are you going to sign the petition?
What petition ? If it is in support for stricter gun laws then probaby not. This week an assault happened at an elementary school. The attacker slashed 22 children in Henan province China .More evidence that it's not the weapon but the person using the weapon that needs to be addressed.
For a private sale, you do not have to fill out that form and go through the background check. My NRA husband says this is the "gunshow loophole."Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
Its different for many states. Where J is from if you're a dealer at a show you have to get them checked out before a sale. A private sale is very different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
There is no loophole in Tennessee. She is correct.
I don't think anyone here has. I agree with J_9 about mental institutions being shut down as early as the '50s but especially during the '70s when we all started being PC and realizing everyone has rights. Droves of mentally ill were consigned to their loving families who were supposed to monitor their meds or responsibly be in charge of them themselves. As we know, that sometimes doesn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
We don't yet know if Adam was a gamer or if he was under doctor's care for a mental illness (or should have been, if he wasn't). And I agree it is a mental health issue in this situation, not a gun control issue. Bits and pieces of the story will come out every day. And yes, I wish the media would shut up.
From an article in today's Chicago Sun-Times regarding the media's influence --
From his review of Gus Van Sant's “Elephant,” a fictionalized account of a Columbine-like school shooting, here's Roger Ebert on the media's behavior while reporting these kinds of events.
Let me tell you a story. The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking soundbites to support it. “Wouldn't you say,” she asked, 'that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?” No, I said, I wouldn't say that. “But what about 'The Basketball Diaries'?” she asked. “Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?”
The obscure 1995 Leonardo DiCaprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.
The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. “Events like this,” I said, “if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. Kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory.”
In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, “The NBC Nightly News” and other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of “explaining” them.
The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy.
Ebert: News coverage, not movies, helps trigger Newtown-type tragedies - Chicago Sun-Times
Hello again,
Last year, handguns KILLED: 48 People in Japan, 8 in Great Britain, 34 in Switzerland, 52 in Canada, 58 in Israel, 21 in Sweden, and 10,728 in The United States.
excon
I don't live in the USA and I have heard it is difficult to get mental health care but had no proof. I read this story and started crying this mother is trying. This is why we need solutions so mothers can get the help they need from their "village".
I Am Adam Lanza's Mother
It's not difficult, but people don't know where to go and how to get it. You may have noticed that I often post, "Call your county health department [etc.]... and if nothing else, call your public library reference desk for help numbers and contact names."Quote:
Originally Posted by mogrann
Even the high cost can be reduced in various ways. My bone to pick is with parenting, that too many parents and other adults in their lives give children a sense of undeserved entitlement. Apparently, from what I have been reading, Adam Lanza's mom realized her son had a problem, had homeschooled him even, but what else was done we don't know yet. Whatever it was, it wasn't enough.
We are too intimidated by the need to be PC and kind. I sat quietly with mouth closed while I watched a bil raise his children very poorly. Both of his daughters are now on the edges of society with children by different fathers, in train wrecks of marriage and relationships, and raising their children with who knows what values. Would it have made a difference if I had spoken up? Can we make a difference when we see someone like Adam Lanza? And how?
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