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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Sadly, if you were able to make more celebrities aware and angry enough to want to stand up and cause change, you would at least get the info to more of the masses and people would be more likely to take notice. Just look how fast books sell when they are on Oprah's book list!

The tricky part is that few celebrities want to tackle something like this. If it were president bashing, no problem, but to speak out against the practices of another culture gets too risky.
I've heard it mentioned before, but unless it is something that is brought to the public's attention often it becomes forgotten.

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Those words speak volumes!! Thank you Doula!

Unfortunately, this is going to be a tough problem to solve. There are still villages that are out of touch with the 21st, even the 20th century. Many of these people are nomads in a barren land, miles away from any form of civilization whatsoever.

Fortunately, it has been made a crime in many nations, however, it is hard to prosecute these butchers as the women are raised to believe this is normal and natural for every woman. They are afraid to speak out when they find out that this is not only uncommon, but illegal. They don't want their families to get into trouble for what has been done to the female population for centuries.

We can all step up on our soap boxes and preach the dangers inherent with this mutilation, we can scream at the tops of our lungs as to how painful, and wrong this is. But it is going to be hard to change centuries of tradition.

Now, before you get upset with me... I am all for stopping this horrendous crime. But I just don't know how.

I know Doula mentioned Oprah. Well, that's all well and good, however some of these "gypsies" that perform this abomination have never heard of her, they are of the belief that women are dirty as they physically mature.

The one thing we do have going for us though is that those generations are dying out and new, healthier, more educated generations are taking over.

Something that has changed since the vietnam protests and it started even back then. There are professional protesters. Is that enough to show caus? In today's fast times and over media hyped products there is no time for caring. The young of today are too self focused. They don't have time to think about the world or what's going on unless they are told to. Anytime an issue comes up there is always another distraction waiting to take it away. Look at how texting has affected personal relationships. Kids at the mall with friends sitting at a table texting everyone else they know. Its crazy.

The hard part is when you have so many battles is to choose just one. That is the only way to knock down the windmills and create change. One step at a time. Its sad but also true. You can't take on the world. So do your personal best to change what you can. Think of ideas to show caus and make it work. The problem with deep seeded religious practices is no matter what government is in charge it will still take place. So changing governments isn't the answer. Its changing minds. And that is a very hard thing to do but not impossible. Where do we go from here?

I just wonder if the powers that be received more pressure from people like celebrities, if at least there might be some more people who do have some influence to take a stand.

The general public may not know Oprah, or many celebrities, but the higher ups in many of these countries are more globally aware.

Get some well known celebs to take a stand, you'll get many of their admirers to follow, and perhaps put some pressure on those who can speak out and be heard to do so. It won't change everything, but look at how some laws have been changed already from just what has been shared on the subject.

Imagine if you get well known people behind it, just enough to get it out there.
There will always be those who will then step up and work towards fostering change from the inside.

I so agree with the comment about new generations coming up and that in itself will help bring about some change.

I agree with you Doula. And it is already illegal. However, it's in the "bush" that these things happen. It's where the government doesn't even know there are people living.

If you had watched the movie, you would see that these people live like nomads and move to wherever there is water and food for their herds.

How are these people going to change this? By going out and traversing the open ranges where maybe only one family lives for hundreds of miles to draw the skirts up of the young girls to see if they have been mutilated?

This is happening on an entire continent, not just one small area.

Luckily I have not run into this yet, but I am sure if I moved to the bigger hospital in the BIG city it would only be a matter of time.

Here is a very interesting article on the debate.

Under Debate: Female Circumcision Scienceline

Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do.

I have watched several talk shows on the subject over the past couple of decades. I have read and listened to stories that seem like something out of a gore movie. I have watched TV shows (Law & Order for one) that tried to bring this out in the open.

It is the women who have been through this who have to stand up for their daughters, nieces, granddaughters, etc. and say no more. It is the men whose wives who were damaged in this way who have to stand up and say 'not my daughter'. It is the religious leaders who see the true affect of this practice who have to be more vocal and 'preach' against it, but not turn around and condone it in private. It is the legal system in the areas where it is practiced openly that has to stop turning away.

I will admit that I sometimes wonder how many of the men and women from certain cultures who come here talking about not enjoying sex (their partner, if male, or them) were victims of this practice to some degree. In some cases/places it is only sewing the lips together to keep the girl 'pure'.

I think knowledge of this practice is why I wanted to rip the head off a poster a few months back who was asking about having her hymen reconstructed just so her boyfriend could have the pleasure of breaking it (and no other reason).

I do believe that we can change this, if only a small part of it. This isn't only happening in the bush, it happens everywhere. If we make those people that live in civilized countries aware that this is happening, that this is a crime, than perhaps that will bring about some change, at least in our own backyards.

As for Africa and other countries, I have to agree with J. These people don't even stay in one place long enough to find them. When Waris went back to Africa to find her mother it was quite the ordeal, because she didn't know where to begin looking, they always moved around.

There is no TV, books, even basic education. You could send the Queen there and they won't have any idea who she is. Celebrities may be able to bring about a change in the States, in Canada, In Europe and other places, but the places that are practicing this mutilation the most, they won't be effected by celebrities, or petitions. They barely know we exist, and they couldn't care less. They're stuck in their traditions, their way of life, because that's all they've ever known.

So do we bring civilization (or our view of it) to these places? Do we educate them? Do we teach them that this is wrong? To them this is a way of life, a natural progression of becoming a woman. They know no different. They would be shocked to learn that the rest of the world thinks this is wrong. This kind of change would not happen quickly. This has been going on for 1400 plus years.

The fact is, we can't change everything, everywhere, everyone, but we can do our best to change our little parts of the world. That's all we can do. If 1 child doesn't have to go through this because we spoke out, that's an accomplishment, that's a step in the right direction. Start with one child, and than go from there. We can change this, one child at a time.

>>>>>There is no TV, books, even basic education. You could send the Queen there and they won't have any idea who she is. Celebrities may be able to bring about a change in the States, in Canada, In Europe and other places, but the places that are practicing this mutilation the most, they won't be effected by celebrities, or petitions. They barely know we exist, and they couldn't care less. They're stuck in their traditions, their way of life, because that's all they've ever known.

Very true... the general public in many places may not be aware, but often the government is. You'd be surprised how well know someone like David Hasselhoff is in many countries around the world!. ;)

It's not the celebs and such fostering change, but the idea was if well known people really took a stand on the problem, many of the people in the US, Canada, etc. would take notice... voice their own outrage and concern, bring it more to the attention of those in power in their governments or social agencies, and they are the ones who might have some semblance of influence towards change in the other places.

Again, as you said, you won't change it all, or even very quickly... but it can change as has been seen with just the limited information that has been brought to people's attention so far. Imagine what might happen if it was given a higher importance by those who have more influence.

Grassroots efforts often start with the people, and usually with just a handful.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I do believe that we can change this, if only a small part of it. This isn't only happening in the bush, it happens everywhere. If we make those people that live in civilized countries aware that this is happening, that this is a crime, than perhaps that will bring about some change, at least in our own backyards.

As for Africa and other countries, I have to agree with J. These people don't even stay in one place long enough to find them. When Waris went back to Africa to find her mother it was quite the ordeal, because she didn't know where to begin looking, they always moved around.

There is no TV, books, even basic education. You could send the Queen there and they won't have any idea who she is. Celebrities may be able to bring about a change in the States, in Canada, In Europe and other places, but the places that are practicing this mutilation the most, they won't be effected by celebrities, or petitions. They barely know we exist, and they couldn't care less. They're stuck in their traditions, their way of life, because that's all they've ever known.

So do we bring civilization (or our view of it) to these places? Do we educate them? Do we teach them that this is wrong? To them this is a way of life, a natural progression of becoming a woman. They know no different. They would be shocked to learn that the rest of the world thinks this is wrong. This kind of change would not happen quickly. This has been going on for 1400 plus years.

The fact is, we can't change everything, everywhere, everyone, but we can do our best to change our little parts of the world. That's all we can do. If 1 child doesn't have to go through this because we spoke out, that's an accomplishment, that's a step in the right direction. Start with one child, and than go from there. We can change this, one child at a time.

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My thoughts entirely. Almost exactly what I was going to post!

I think it's horrible. I couldn't imagine putting my child through such senseless pain. It's right up there with honor killings. To us it just doesn't make sense, but to those who follow that religion or have those religious beliefs it seems like a fitting way to show your devotion to your husband and God.

I can't wrap my head around it. Hard as I try to understand why these people do these horrendous things in the name of God baffles me. My opinion is that it sucks. I hate hearing about things like this. It breaks my heart to think of the pain and suffering and DEATH that these little innocent children are put through. It seems like child abuse, and in MY eyes it is. I can't fathom why any mother or father would want to do this to their child.

Sadly part of the reason at least is that it makes a young woman more 'valuable' to prospective husbands. I aren't even going to ponder how that value system evolved...

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

I think it's horrible. I couldn't imagine putting my child through such senseless pain. It's right up there with honor killings. To us it just doesn't make sense, but to those who follow that religion or have those religious beliefs it seems like a fitting way to show your devotion to your husband and God.

I can't wrap my head around it. Hard as I try to understand why these people do these horrendous things in the name of God baffles me. My opinion is that it sucks. I hate hearing about things like this. It breaks my heart to think of the pain and suffering and DEATH that these little innocent children are put through. It seems like child abuse, and in MY eyes it is. I can't fathom why any mother or father would want to do this to their child.

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It doesn't always have to do with religion. In some cultures it is the belief that the women who have not had this done are impure and not considered marriage material.

Very true. Had a hard time expressing how I felt here. It's very sad to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

Very true. Had a hard time expressing how I felt here. It's very sad to say the least.

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How in the world can these people be so ignorant. I have read some things in various websites about the different ways these little girls are treated. It is not fair.

It's not ignorant Kit... it's a different way of life.

I am in no way defending these people for the mutilation that they inflict upon innocent girls, but we have to take a step back and see that there are different cultures with different beliefs.

Do I agree with what they are doing? NO. Do I think change is in order? Yes.

But we have to remember that many of these cultures are very primitive in their beliefs.

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Originally Posted by J_9

It's not ignorant Kit...it's a different way of life.

I am in no way defending these people for the mutilation that they inflict upon innocent girls, but we have to take a step back and see that there are different cultures with different beliefs.

Do I agree with what they are doing? NO. Do I think change is in order? Yes.

But we have to remember that many of these cultures are very primitive in their beliefs.

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You're right J... I guess I just don't understand how all this hasn't caused someone , some government to intervene. Yes change is in order.

Kit, read back. Governments have made this illegal. However, many of the "tribes" that still participate in this are nomads. They aren't recognized by the government because they don't exist to the government. They move from place to place frequently.

These countries don't take a census like we do, they don't have access to health care like we do. They don't have access to education. Their children begin work at around the age of 3, they have 12 or more children per family only to help with the chores.

Many of us are looking at them through Alty's "rose colored glasses," but in all reality we don't understand the culture.

I had to take 3 semesters of cultural diversity in school so that I could take care of patients from different cultures and respect their differences. It was an eye opening experience to say the least.

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Originally Posted by J_9

Kit, read back. Governments have made this illegal. However, many of the "tribes" that still participate in this are nomads. They aren't recognized by the government because they don't exist to the government. They move from place to place frequently.

These countries don't take a census like we do, they don't have access to health care like we do. They don't have access to education. Their children begin work at around the age of 3, they have 12 or more children per family only to help with the chores.

Many of us are looking at them through Alty's "rose colored glasses," but in all reality we don't understand the culture.

I had to take 3 semesters of cultural diversity in school so that I could take care of patients from different cultures and respect their differences. It was an eye opening experience to say the least.

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J how in the world do they have children? I read that the doctor has to do a lot of cutting. Have you ever seen someone who has had this done?

No, I haven't seen them only because I live in a very rural community. However, one of the nurses I work with, who PRNs at our hospital, works in a LARGE metropolitan hospital and she's seen it once.

Apparently, on the wedding night, the "hole" is cut open again. Yes, it's barbaric. But in all honesty, who are we to decide what is culturally correct? Do we force our culture on thousands of years of tradition? If so, it will continue behind "closed doors."

When I have a culturally diverse patient in my L&D, I have to respect their cultural differences.

What is happening here is that we are trying to force our belief systems on people who don't know any different.

It is sad, it is dangerous, it is unclean and unhealthy. But how do we change it? It's going to take years, decades. We can't do it overnight. It's not going to take celebrities that these people have never heard of.

We cannot FORCE our beliefs on another culture. But what we CAN do... As medical professionals...

Is be kind to these women, offer our reversal services free, be non-judgmental. The word will get out... eventually. And in time, change will come.

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Many of us are looking at them through Alty's "rose colored glasses," but in all reality we don't understand the culture.

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LOL. Trust me J, those rose colored glasses aren't rose colored anymore.

I tried to explain from the beginning of this thread that these people do not live in a country like ours.

I think Kit is talking about the circumcisions that happen in the US and Canada, not so much the ones that happen in Africa and other countries where there really is little hope of stopping this.

There are laws in place Kit, which is why, if a girl is circumcised in the US and starts bleeding too much, many times the family won't take her to the hospital, because they risk being imprisoned if they do. Sometimes a sister, or Aunt or even the mother, will drop the girl off at the doors of the hospital so that she at least has a chance, but that girl knows very well that she can't tell anyone who her family is, because they'll be arrested.

We can help change what happens on our own soil, but changing how things are done in Africa and other countries where the people live hand to mouth, don't know anything about organized government, laws, educations, nothing, is next to impossible. Waris is trying to educate these people about this very thing, and because of speaking out, she's put herself in great danger.

This is something that has been going on for at least 1400 years, possibly 2000 years. It's a part of their culture, and it won't be easily changed. This is what they know, this is the way it's always been, and they don't understand why anyone would think it's wrong. They probably aren't even aware that the civilized world thinks they're child abusers, monsters, mutilators.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

LOL. Trust me J, those rose colored glasses aren't rose colored anymore.

I tried to explain from the beginning of this thread that these people do not live in a country like ours.

I think Kit is talking about the circumcisions that happen in the US and Canada, not so much the ones that happen in Africa and other countries where there really is little hope of stopping this.

There are laws in place Kit, which is why, if a girl is circumcised in the US and starts bleeding too much, many times the family won't take her to the hospital, because they risk being imprisoned if they do. Sometimes a sister, or Aunt or even the mother, will drop the girl off at the doors of the hospital so that she at least has a chance, but that girl knows very well that she can't tell anyone who her family is, because they'll be arrested.

We can help change what happens on our own soil, but changing how things are done in Africa and other countries where the people live hand to mouth, don't know anything about organized government, laws, educations, nothing, is next to impossible. Waris is trying to educate these people about this very thing, and because of speaking out, she's put herself in great danger.

This is something that has been going on for at least 1400 years, possibly 2000 years. It's a part of their culture, and it won't be easily changed. This is what they know, this is the way it's always been, and they don't understand why anyone would think it's wrong. They probably aren't even aware that the civilized world thinks they're child abusers, monsters, mutilators.

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I know Alty and J.. it's sad and I don't understand it but who knows. I just wish these little girls didn't have to suffer.

I understand their RIGHT to have a different culture, but my aching heart just doesn't understand it. Things like this really effect me. I know they effect every one on a level too, but I will not be able to stop thinking about this. My heart is hurting like it was done to my own child. I can't stop sobbing.

Even writing in my creation thread, I was crying.

To those who struggle with scope when dealing with issues of social justice... who are slowed and swayed by the vast history of whatever wrong is being perpetuated, the generations of adamant followers, the terrible odds against winning... ill post what a fav woman of mine once gave me, concerning how one can tolerate working in an area that has many failures, takes generations to change, and has setback after setback...

Adapted from Thomas Merton, trappist monk...

"Do not depend on the hope of results. When you are doing the sort of work you have taken on, essentially an apostolic work, you may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea, you start more and more to concentrate not on the results but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself. And there too a great deal has to be gone through, as gradually you struggle less and less for an idea and more and more for specific people. The range tends to narrow down, but it gets much more real. In the end, it is the reality of personal relationships that saves everything. "

That quote, read daily, by a social justice worker for 30 years didn't change the world, but it helped her find the strength to change hundreds of lives.

I know, its preachy. One girl saved is one less tortured.

Oh Bella, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you cry. :(

I posted this because I thought that it needed discussing, it needs to be known, even though it's hard to know that it's going on every single day.

But there's a power in knowing something, in feeling strongly about something. That knowledge has the power to change the world.

Like I said before, if speaking out about it, even on a site, makes one person stop, saves one little girl, than that's a step in the right direction.

Do I think our words have that much power? I believe they can. We can be a voice for those children. We already are, just by telling their story.

It's like puppy mills and backyard breeders, the fight to save dogs, to make sure only legitimate breeders breed so we can put an end to the death and suffering of these animals. Every time one person says "You're right, I won't breed" lives are being saved.

Now we just have to figure out how to make our voices heard on a large scale, how to put an end to this. It's a far more difficult task than saving dogs, but in many ways it's no different. The people that backyard breed, the people that have puppymills, in many ways they just don't know any better. :(

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I know, its preachy. One girl saved is one less tortured.

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Where is the agree button?

Greenie for you KP. :)

I know Alty, I can't live in my bubble. I've always been too sensitive. But your right, telling the story does help spread the word.

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Originally Posted by kp2171

to those who struggle with scope when dealing with issues of social justice... who are slowed and swayed by the vast history of whatever wrong is being perpetuated, the generations of adamant followers, the terrible odds against winning... ill post what a fav woman of mine once gave me, concerning how one can tolerate working in an area that has many failures, takes generations to change, and has setback after setback...

adapted from Thomas Merton, trappist monk...

"Do not depend on the hope of results. When you are doing the sort of work you have taken on, essentially an apostolic work, you may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea, you start more and more to concentrate not on the results but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself. And there too a great deal has to be gone through, as gradually you struggle less and less for an idea and more and more for specific people. The range tends to narrow down, but it gets much more real. In the end, it is the reality of personal relationships that saves everything. "

that quote, read daily, by a social justice worker for 30 years didnt change the world, but it helped her find the strength to change hundreds of lives.

i know, its preachy. one girl saved is one less tortured.

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This is awesome. Something I should post at the Shelter.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

This is awesome. Something I should post at the Shelter.

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It is a quote worth sharing.

Great social change often takes generations. You must believe the work that you do is Right, no matter the outcome.

I hope you pass on mertons work.

A link with more of the letter he wrote...

Sign of Peace - Journal of the Catholic Peace Fellowship

And to those who might cringe at the christian slant this takes... Gandhi did the same work... year after year... decade after decade... justice doesn't demand any demonination... it just demands an attentive audience willing to believe it is worth the struggle.

Preachy boy tonight? Ah well. My naughty needs a yin for its yang now and then.

...

Anyone up for pad thai and spring rolls?

Send some of those spring rolls this way! I don't mind the Christian slant. If it has a good message, who cares where it comes from.

I love preachy KP. I also love spring rolls, so send them over.

I agree with Bella, as long as the message is sound, who cares where it comes from. I'm not religious, but there are many religious quotes, passages, that do hit home for me.

See, I'm not as close minded as some would think. ;)

I agree KP... on a smaller scale I hold onto this with the students I teach.

I think of planting seeds, especially in regard to behavior and making good choices. I know some may wither and never take root, but I also know some will grow and flourish, even if I never see the results, and they will go on to plant seeds elsewhere.

As has been said, one life changed...

Oh man! I missed the spring rolls! Bummer

Just think of how many lives we touch each day when we handle questions about relationships and sexuality. By being compassionate and consistent, we make a difference not only to those who post but those who read.

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Originally Posted by Cat1864

Just think of how many lives we touch each day when we handle questions about relationships and sexuality. By being compassionate and consistant, we make a difference not only to those who post but those who read.

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Greenie for focusing on some positive. We can all only do a very little in this world. But if 1 million people (which is a very small number globally) all did a little good in the world it all adds up.

Alty I think I might have to adopt you as my sexy younger sister. I too am not religious, although I have my spiritual side, but I am happy to share in the good thoughts and deeds that religion can sometimes foster.

Man no one ever wants to adopt me. :p

Cat that was a great post! Very inspiring.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

Man no one ever wants to adopt me. :p

Cat that was a great post! Very inspiring.

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They don't want to adopt me either Bella... let's just run off together to a deserted island.

Sounds good J, lets adopt each other and move to Bora Bora.

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Originally Posted by J_9

They don't want to adopt me either Bella....let's just run off together to a deserted island.

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I'll adopt both of you. ;)

Then I will run off to a deserted island. :)

Where did I leave the book with the floor plans from Gilligan's Island?:confused:

But you can't leave us behind! We'll be like lost little puppies :(

People only want to adopt me because I cook, clean and don't eat much. I'm pretty inexpensive to keep. ;)

Bella and J, you two are high maintenance. :p

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Bella and J, you two are high maintenance. :p

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Me? High maintenance? I go to work, bring home the paycheck and sleep! How is that high maintenance? :rolleyes: