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So what do you think should be done to fix the problem. Capital punishment? Televised. Would that change the behaviour. Or is it better to put more investment into social programs for people and their families who are struggling to make it financially in this world and maybe they will not fall in that trap.
Now, that's a thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainForest
If we say we trust we are either sincere or insincere.
There is no middle ground. Much better would be not to say anything at all.
Deuteronomy 23:23
That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
Do not confuse the government line with individual opinion.One may not have anything to do with the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Huh? Please explain better starman?
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
If the words are meaningless or irrelevant in terms of government policy which addresses public morality, why not respectfully delete them? Otherwise they come across as mockingly hypocritical. We consider persons, organizations, or nations who purport to follow other religious books untrustworthy hypocrites if they ignore the very words they prominently display or claim to adhere to. Why should we be any different? First we must remove the straw from our own eyes before we can qualify to criticize others be they either individuals o organizations, or nations who are religiously inconsistent in their public policies by encouraging activities which the god, gods, or God they officially claim to trust condemns.
Why write a statement of that kind which is irrelevant to government policy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Why risk the impression of being considered a nation of hypocrites? No I am not confusing public opinion with government policies or vis versa. I am simply saying that if the words are not to be taken seriously in reference to the moral issues that the God we claim to trust condemns then it's better not to place them prominently where they can be viewed as nothing more than an irrelevant utterance or a national twitch of sorts.
BTW
Nations are composed of individuals who either protest what they see or happily go right along with it. I don't see anyone taking umbrage with the inconsistency-do you?
Starman is right in one regard, we should delete whatever he thinks we need to delete(not quite sure what exactly you were referring to, but I gather it is something to do with some kind of religious text that somehow correlates to our government in some way or another). The separation of church and state is what need to be upheld, and is mostly the reason that legal cases get cloudy, because people bring up their religious believes in the judicial system and that shouldn't be allowed. If you live in this country than you accept the laws placed upon you and you should abide by them unless they somehow corrupt one of the admendments or free rights, you should not protest if they go against your religious belief, because after all it is your belief and therefore should not be heard in a court of law. I am referring also to the scopes-monkey trial, and other religious proceedings that have taken place over the years, samesex issues, because I honestly think that religion has no place in politics. But because religion is very important to people it will never go away and I understand that. I just wish it would. In the case of prostitution, again, legalizing it would not solve our problem, the bounds of prostituion will not stick to some red-light district in your downtown area, it will spread and again there will be a problem. I don't understand why everyone thinks it would be a good idea to legalize it. Again my example and it has been this entire time is LAS VEGAS. Honestly it is no place for families, it is even more no place for children. Supposedly parents have ENOUGH problems with the crap on MTV. Well MTV IS A FREAKING BARNEY COMPARED TO LAS VEGAS. And I am not talking about they bad places, they get worse, I am talking just walking the strip and seeing all the **** that goes on. You would have to be practically retarded to wish that upon your town. Legalizing prostitution will NOT work, it definitely will NOT stick to some part of town, and unless I can get an example of an American city where it is legalized and stayed in it's separate but equal corner I will refuse the idea of legalization of prostitution. In preidustrial communities prostitution or the exchange of wives is common, and with industrial communities prostitution hasn't always been illegal it was big during the 16th century, and their were licensed brothels, it then followed a decline were it became illegal because of the protestants and roman catholics, also because an outbreak of syphilis. As for prostitution in America it hasn't always been illegal either, before 1910 their was a white slave trade going on, where women were taken across the borders for immoral uses. All this stopped once the white slave trade act of 1910 banned it. I Agree that maybe this approach hasn't been working for too long, but definitely not thousands of years, it is time for a new approach but what I am not so certain.
wizzkid89/Starman-Prostitution is already in every city in America and the white slave trade still goes on to this day all over the world and yes its been with man since recorded history a couple of thousands of years Legalization would keep it in certain places and even force prostitutes to get health check ups. Taxing it would take a lot of the criminal element out of it and raise money for other things. I agree that religion should not be mixed with politics so the religious solution (JAIL) which hasn't worked ever, is not the solution either. And as this thread has shown there is a tremendous market for sex, and drugs. I am like you though, what the solution is I am a little uncertain. I just think legalisation would take it from criminals and put it in more reasonable hands where at least people would stop dying for it and maybe get help if they need it. Maybe a better way to spread the wealth in this country would go along way in keeping people off the streets and out of the quick fast money that can be made off human misery.
It is in every city, I never said it wasn't, but the legalization of it would make take it from the background to the forefront of the city, it would no longer be hidden underground but opened wide up for everyone to see and if you think that won't happen then you are crazy. I also never said that it hasn't been around for years, I just said that legality of it has been something that gone off and on throughout history. I also said in my earlier posts that it would be a boost to the economy BUT AT WHAT PRICE? For YOUR kids to be subject to material that not only should they not see but won't understand for years to come? Is that a price YOU are willing to pay? To have a city littered with porn? The legalization of it will only open up the floodgates for the issues of legalizing gambling and drugs. There once was a time this went on in the forefront of every community, and they put a stop to it, or at least made it disappear and go underground. There was a reason. That reason believe it or not still exists whether people choose to remember it. I do agree however that giving help to people who would become streetwalkers would benefit a lot more than jailing them. And hopefully there would be a way to provide that help to them.
With legalization comes regulation and all due respect its already out there for everyone to see. Out of site out of mind? Sounds like don't ask don't tell. Regulation would put it under control of zoning ordinaces with oversite at least. I think your scenario of it popping up everywhere is an over statement.
Look you support me with towns and what not and I will believe you. I have been to chicago, seattle, New York, l.a. I live near san fran, I have been to most large cities and a lot more handfuls and I haven't seen what you say is there. And honestly have you tally been to las vegas it's just an honest question, because if you haven't you will not know. It is not an overstatement, but rather very logical. We have cities that legalize such things, and the largest of which is what I am accurately describing. And it is shortsighted to think that it wouldn't happen anywhere else if the same legalization is followed. I honestly would love to have this discussion, with people who have seen it in reality. No disrespect to anyone, but it's frustrating when the majority of people are arguing for something they have never experienced.
Been there done that. And yes Vegas is really no place to take children. But my real peeve is that the high class call girl and white upper-class types get away with whatever and the only ones going to jail are those walking the streets that's not fair . The same with drugs. Street people don't have access to drugs unless somebody goes and gets them, who goes to jail and who makes money. I've seen enough human carnage to last a life time so if your frustrated, you can imagine how I feel. So back to the topic, why do high class white women making money and the low class minorities going to jail?
Every city has its drug and prostitution district and the only reason you'd be there is your looking to do business. The city fathers pad their arrest record by cracking down and hauling a lot of folks to jail and it looks good on paper.
However the places you will rarely see are the suburban drug and prostitute rings who operate with impunity catering to well connected clients with money. NOT fair!
You just don't know!Quote:
No disrespect to anyone, but it's frustrating when the majority of people are arguing for something they have never experienced
What is wrong with discussing morals, and society. What is wrong with discussing situations or experiances that a person might have or might have not experienced?
Is it me or is it the heat? Anybody here under an extreme heat and humid warning, It is like 110 FH maybe 40 degrees c.
Joe
Its 104 and rising at 3pm in Irving, Tx
Had to walk two blocks and darned near passed out, its been in the 100's since Wednesday with no relief in sight. 106 degrees is the danger threshold.
There can be no change in our lives unless we talk about it.
I just saw a movie Sunday about kids being kidnapped and sold and brought to the US as sex slaves. Third world families where selling there kids to buy food ,it was a eye opener and disgusted me to outrage at the way humans can treat other humans. That and the war in the middle east has got me more unglued and sorry folks if I let the frustration show. Sometimes I remember all the things I've seen and I just loose it for a bit.
No sorry is needed.
Frustration is a normal human emotion that we all experience in hot weather. Lol
And not always just in HOT weather lol ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Nothing at allQuote:
What is wrong with discussing morals, and society. What is wrong with discussing situations or experiances that a person might have or might have not experienced?
Look I am not going to get mad at you tally, maybe because I live by the bay and I always have the air on. It's a good 76 degrees right now. So that whole thing about you just don't know, I am going to let it go. I was not arguing that the white upper class or the call girl should be left alone and that only the streetwalker should be arrested. I NEVER SAID THAT. I simply said that legalizing prostitution would only create a vegas like atmosphere around the whole city. And since you have been there, you can agree it's no place for growing families. I agree all prostitution needs to be stopped from the small fish to the big fish, and all the drug rings that go along with it. I never said to leave those guys alone. I have been arguing that legalizing prostitution in America will only descreate our good cities, or at least make the good parts transform into the already slums that these cities have. If it's legalized there is no reason it wouldn't spread and just eat the entire city. Anyway, that was all that I was arguing, not the fact that the lower class should get penalized and the upper class shouldn't.
As for the fact of discussing a situation in which you have not experienced, there is some times where it is wrong. For instance, in this very case, to not know the outcome of a fully legalized prostitution city(aka las vegas) you wouldn't be able to fully imagine what your city would succomb to. That is simply all I am saying, if you don't know what it's like it's hard to argue for something that you have never experienced, there is something wrong with that, but I don't really feel like arguing over that too. So if we could just stay on topic of legalizing prostitution, that would be great :)
76 degrees, invite me to lunch today!And that, you just don't know, post was about me, not you.
Now that that's over...
My idea for legalization has two purposes as I see it 1) To regulate the industry health wise and monitor the activity and keep the criminal element out 2) Make sure you can corral it through zoning ordinances so it would be out of site and out of mind. This would I think also restrict it from becoming a criminal zone as enforcement would be a lot easier especially if its monitored and participants registered.
Unlike Vegas which is the ultimate party town, and anything goes, our large cities would not have to open the whole town up just zone it to an appropriate setting.
I can understand how people feel and I myself would rather it be eliminated but that has and never will happen in my opinion so step must be made to control it and give some measure of safety. Right now as things stand you have a breeding ground for the worst of the worst kind of human animal. That must change.
If anyone would have other ideas either for elimination or control I got my ears on.
I agree that past solution has not worked, however only a small percentage of prostitutes actually spread std's, the largest percentage is teenagers. So there really is no need of regulating for health purposes. I also agree that it would take the criminal element out, only because it would no longer be illegal, but drugs would still be apart of it. However, as for the zoning ordinaces why do you think we could confine it to a zone, when we can't even stop it now? I don't think setting a boundary for it would work, it would definitely spill over, and there would be petitions for it to be legal in all parts of town. I honestly don't believe it would stick to one part of town. I do agree things need to change, but I do want to rule out legalization, as I think there are better alternative methods, but at this time I have no suggestions for one, but like you I too have my ears on.
Maybe a prison system that does more than just incarcerate inmates would be a way to go. Education, and training and counceling to prepare them to return to the real world and have a direction instead of falling back to old ways.
Then release them back to their old neighborhood and see how long it takes them to fall back into their old life style?
There are towns in Nevada that allow legal prostitution outside of their town. It has to be a certain distance from town and they do not effect the town. At least one knows where to go and men are less apt to proposition a woman on the street, therefore the women stay off the street. The women are protected from horrible things happening to them if they are in a brothel.
It is unfair to target LasVegas as an example of what would happen. Vegas is a gambling town, and that is all it is. When you have only gambling, you are going to have transits, lots of drugs, alcohol, prostitutes and just about any other evil thing you can think of. After all it is "Sin City".
I don't know that prostitution is winked at on one hand or condemned on the other. When you do something blatantly in public you are going to be more apt to suffer the consequences than if it goes on unnoticed behind closed doors. It takes time and search warrants etc. to raid an established business.
As I see it, as long as men are going to pay for it, women are always going to sell it. Whether it is legal or not, it is going to always go on. If it is legal, they would be more apt to stay in a certain area.
Whizzkid, If it is so awful in Vegas, why have you returned 5 times?:)
I have to admit, I have not read all of the answers on here, as that would take me a long time to do, but I will say, here in IL, we have a huge problem with prostitution places... They seem to pop up all of the time... They go under the name as Lingirie Parlors and Massage Parlors... but really they are places of prostitution... and EVERYONE knows it, including the police. It is wrong to allow these places to stay open in my opinion... they ruin lives... break up marriages... create addictions... ect... and most of the time the women in them are either illegal immigrants sold as sex slaves... or crack addicts feeding there addictions. Nobody working in these places chooses it as there choice career. Recently here in our city, they cracked down on like 5 Massage Parlors, and arrested and shut down all of them, finding out that most of the women working in these places were slaves from Korea sold to the owner in exchange to help them become citizens. It is not right to make these places legal, PERIOD. That is like saying... lets make rape legal... or lets make sexual assault legal.
I do however think, that just like other types of crimes... it will always be present... legal or not legal... but it should always be labeled what it is in this country... a crime. That's what it is, and a lot of men who buy this type of thing have addictions and problems... just like any other addiction. Sex is like Crack to some people. They don't care where they get it.
What happens in Vegas stays in vegas, I love it, but I would never raise a family there...
Cassie and Cgirl I agree with you in some areas. However, in concern to picking on vegas, I am going to stand by that. Look vegas is a large city, and in California, vegas is about the average size around the bay area and probably down there near l.a. If prostitution was legalized here in California, there is no room outside of our towns to make a brothel or what not like you say they do in other cities. I have traveled every which way in Nevada, and really Vegas and Reno are the biggest ones and they aren't that big. You can't compare these little 5,000 pop towns that have prostitution on the other side of the tracks with all the other towns in America. Because in most metropolitians, New York, Chicago, Detroit, Seattle, San Fran, L.A. there is no room put it on the outskirts of town, it would be put inside the of the town. And that is what I fear and that is why Las Vegas is such a good example because it encase the entire town which is exactly legalizing prostitution would do to all of these big cities. It would not stay in a confined zone or for that matter in the outskirts, if you make legal people would want it close and by them, at least some would, and that's where they would start breaking the rules.
As for sex is like crack, yeah a lot of people are addicted it to it, nechrophilicas is the term I believe, probably spelt it wrong. Anyway, it is horrible that these illegal immigrants house these brothels and ONLY MORE WOULD COME once it is legalized because let's face, the number of American women being prostitutes is declining, and brothels would prefer immigrants anyway because they are cheaper and can't just quit like other american women. And I see it all the time in San Francsico, all the asian women being sold into prostitution. San Francsico is I believe, number one in the country in that regard, of the asian sex slave trade. They come all the time on boats here and you can see them anytime you go through the city. And believe me I wish that would stop also, but the numbers would only grow if prostitution is illegal. That's why I agree with tally that there needs to be other ways to help these people and get them off the street. And not only the women but the men who pay for it.
Rehabilitation is a better way of getting the girls off the street... but there will probably always be prostitution unfortunately... it has been around for centuries
Even if you legalized it, there would always be those street walkers and other "independants" that work outside the regulated system.
Those under-age child runaways, homeless, drug addicts, and otherwise desperate-at-the-moment types would still be out there and there would still be those that would pay them.
This is an issue like drugs, some say if you were to legalize drugs it would take the big money away from the dealers, but it scares me to think of drugs being legal. I am not saying we should legalize prostitution, I was just stating a few thoughts about the NV laws. I am not sure if it were legalized there would be more or not. The same with drugs. It seems if anyone wants to find a hooker they have no problem no matter where they are.
Where it is not legal the "slaves" can not go to the authorities. If it were legal, would they anyway? Actually, I saw more hookers on the street in some places in LA and San Francisco than I saw on the streets in Las Vegas.
I was amazed late at night of all the guys as well as gals on the streets of San Francisco. I know being a female is different than being a male as far as being approached:) but it was so blatant in Frisco you knew what was going on.
What I mean about Las Vegas is that that is what that city is all about, entertainment of all kinds. It is almost a given that it would be so well advertised. IF (not saying I want it) it were legal in other places it would not be so out there.
These are just my thoughts, not an expert and wish all of these things that break up families were not around but unfortunately they are and it is hard to know the best way to deal with them. Some police officers turn their heads for various reasons, money, time, paperwork, burnout. I do wish I had the answers, I'd love to help.
You are so right
I know what your saying and your preaching to the choir I live like 15 minutes away from San Fran, I just went their Saturday night for a pearl Jam concert. Yeah it's bad, but to be far San Fran and L.A. have A lot MORE people so it would only be logical to reason they have more hookers. I am sure that if Las Vegas got more they would be if not the same amount but more. Yeah it is given that Las Vegas tells you what you should be expecting and rightfully exploits. My question to you is what makes you think that once prostitution is legalized what would stop them from marketing it like they do in Las Vegas? And yes being a female is a lot different. When I go to vegas I can get approached around 3 times a night, every night, since I was 15. Granted I have always been tall, which gives me an older appearance, but still they do ask, and it's common for males to turn it down, hopefully they do. I think cgirl has something going on with the idea of rehabilitation. I believe that would work a lot better than legalizing it. Also philly has a point that this business will still grow due to people in need of money. Now with that said, again I will state that I am not in favor of the way we are handling it now, but I will say that legalizing it would not help at all and only worsen our problem. If there was some kind of government system that could take these prostitutes off the street and teach them a real job or skill that they could use, I bet it would guarantee. However, I have read articles before on this subject and many people's opinions on the matter, and one underlying one is that the women wouldn't want to. They wouldn't want to work at restaurant or some place like that. They might chose prostitution because they are necrophilicas, or the fact that it's easy money. I mean think about what they do and how well they get paid for like 30 minutes of service, would they want to be a fry cooker? So not only do we have to change the minds of the men wanting this, and but we need to rehabilitate and adjust the prostitutes attitude on what they are doing, and how they are treating themselves like dirt. The reason that the government has done nothing, is simple, what can they do? Look how much we talk about if you go this way this what happen, and so on and so fourth, there is no clear cut deciscion. There is no right answer, and to rehabilitate would only make the economy suffer more, and I guarantee a large part of american's don't want to pay taxes to help hookers. This is largely why I think nothing will ever be done about it.
Necrophilicas-A fetish involving sex and dead bodies.
Until you try you don't know how something will turn out. Yes I do agree that no matter what some people will always chose to do that which is against the law for easy money. And men will always pay for it, as a convenient perverse way to get there rocks off. But to do nothing? You may as well legalize it and turn a blind eye or decriminalize it or throw everybody in jail and you still end up paying for it. My position is pick one and do it 100% or just leave them alone and do nothing! I think we have been half-stepping the problem anyway just like drugs and the homeless and every other problem. Just enough for show and get some politico to say I'm tough on it so re-elect me. Hey I got it! Tell them elected officials to solve the problem or get voted out. WE are paying them to work in our interest aren't we?
It does seem as though our legal system just skims the top, they do enough arrests to make it look like they are doing their jobs. It seems as though they do not have a handle on any crimes. Drugs are so out of hand, prisons are overflowing. In most prisons there is little to no rehabilitation.
I feel our politicians only have their interests in mind. As long as their pockets are full and they can live the lifestyle that keeps them away from the slums and it does effect them or their families, they are content. I attended a party once where there were some powerful people there, lots of politicians. After attending that function, I realized they are afraid to pass too many tight laws, because it could very well effect them and what they do.
So like everything else they do, they will make a big show of caring and once again really do nothing.
If our government would spend the money they waste on parties, prostitution etc on rehabilitation and education for the underpriviledged, our country could start to heal.
I am sorry I think I got off track here, but actually I am not, because as long as big government's policy is to open more prisons and no rehabilitation, it will just get worse. Prostitution is the least of the horrific crimes being made each day, I doubt they even think about it.
Goodness, I always have to spread it around... You are so right, Let's all sit outside in 100+ weather and then have a discussion with the politicians. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I don't think they would stop marketing it if it were legalized. The business minded ones would stay in their area. BUT if you look really look at prostitution, one must think why is it such a big business. I think even legalized there would be those that would stand on the street corner and some men that would only want that kind. There has to be some level of excitement about picking up a hooker on the corner or many would find a more reputable place where it is legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizzkid89
I totally agree!
I do think too, that the movie "Pretty Woman" gave prostitution a good name, like... "become a prostitute and meet rich men that will take you away and you will live happily ever after" and I do think that there are two or maybe three types of prostitutes... 15-17 year old girls who have run away from home and think this is the only way to make money... and then get caught up in the whole business, Drug addicts (crack prostitutes), and illegal immigrants working in massage/lingerie parlors. As far as rehabilitating these people, it would have to be approached in different ways, depending on the situation. I don't think there is one simple answer, just like the war on drugs, but I do think all of this business in Iraq is clouding the minds of our polititions and making them forget where the real problems lye. This is a real sore subject for me, because I live about an hour from Chicago, and you can't even walk down the street in Chicago without being pestered by either someone looking for money or vice versa (and this is in the Loop, which is the richer areas of Chicago, Imagine how bad it is in the poorer sections.) It just saddens me that America has turned a blind eye to these people and people think the only solution is to make it legal and profit from it. Come on, people, where are our morals?
What are your solutions, show us YOUR morals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgirl
I am not saying there is an immediate solution to the problem, I am simply stating that just laying down and letting it happen is what this country is CURRENTLY doing. I am saying that it seems that some people and polititions think money is more important then solving the problem. I know that everyone ON HERE is not that way, I didn't mean to sound condesending at all. It just burns me up the way this country has let morals flush down the toilet, greed is much more important. The rich are gettting richer and the poor are getting poorer... and maybe if that was changed, including a better educational system for ALL, then maybe there wouldn't be as much prostitution and drugs and gangs, etc. I was not trying to say anyone on here didn't have morals, I was just saying I don't think that making Prostitution legal is the solution. I guess I should choose my words more wisely. No harm intended.
The reason sex for money works is mainly because it is unlike any other sex in the world. Its similar to why Wizzkid goes to Vegas - although he is doing nothing illegal, it is a "what happens in Vegas stays is Vegas" kind of thing. Its also a bit like why there is so much sex at conventions -- paid for or otherwise - its all that "out of town" effect. It allows both participants to do things that would not occur otherwise. In one strange way its very freeing but at a huge price. Many of the providers are sexually dysfuntional and certainly often messed up. It travels well in the company of drug use. Also trading something other than money for sex has been going on all over the place for a long long time now and so hooking is often seen as just an extension of that. If you ask me how I know this, I will only say I have had more than my share of dark days. I speak in past tense with gratitude.
As long as sex in general is not well integrated into a culture, the sex-for-money appeal will continue. In the US, I have seen a culture emerge that is more comfortable with violence, prejudice, greed, crime and dishonesty than I do one comfortable with sex of any kind. This is one of those kinds of problems I like to think of as "feeder" problem - if we solved some of the bigger problems first, it would almost take care of itself since it feeds off the other ones. The two biggest ones it feeds off is the domestic violence/sexual abuse in our culture that spawns it and our high tolerance to crime in general.
We are a long way off from solving this one, in my view.
I see that though no solution has presented itself there are a lot of good ideas floating around.
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