Hello again, Sanjay:

I see exactly where you're coming from. People who live inside a bubble have no idea how they're viewed by people living outside.

When I hear about "responsible" and "rational" spanking, I'm reminded of Mayor Giuliani when he talked about waterboarding... He said it's NOT torture depending on how it's done and who does it.

The people INSIDE that bubble all furrowed their brows, and nodded their heads in agreement. To people OUTSIDE the bubble, their mouths dropped open. To them, waterboarding is torture, plain and simple.

To those outside the spanking bubble, hearing those inside say that it's NOT abuse if done by "responsible" parents, makes ones mouth drop open.

excon

Just this one thought, spare the rod, spoil the child.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjay Persad

Who decides who are responsible are rational parents? The parent would not say that i'm irresponsible etc...so i can't beat my child, if u see where i coming from.

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In my house I'm the responsible parent, along with my wife. Do you think the government can do better? Do you have an example of that. Granted, some parents are not as good as I am, but I have never seen the government do much of anything right so, I as a rule keep them out of my house, and away from my kids. If you are a responsible parent, and have your kids best interest at heart, you would keep them away from your kids too.

I don't agree there are so many children out there that are being abused and with all that laws its very hard for a parent to have consequences when it comes to abuse there are a lot of chainsthat have to happen firt when a child is in danger. My point is that I do not think that anyone has to resort to spanking there child. There are many other effective ways to get through to your child instead of having them fear you because that's all that it is they may not do something again but not because they have learned that it wrong but because they fear getting spanked I think making your child understand what they did was wrong why it was wrong and implementing a punishment to the effect is more effective and that child will understand that what they did is wrong because of this. When kids who were spnked grow up tey are more likely to get in fights at school or use anger instead or ration and that's a proven fact I don't think it's a matter of opinion I think that there are so many thick headed parents out there that have the attitude that its my child I will do what I want and I do not agree it is your child but they grow up and can easily leave when they are older and when they start getting into trouble the parents sit back and wonder what happrned

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjay Persad

Who decides who are responsible are rational parents? The parent would not say that i'm irresponsible etc...so i can't beat my child, if u see where i coming from.

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I do see where you are coming from. That is why at the beginning of this whole thing, I noted if it meant less children being abused, then yes, it should be illegal. You know people, sometimes it's OK to "ride both sides of the fence" and still be a great person. Excon, I admire you and you know that , but seriously? Do you think I, should be brought into court for giving them a swat on the butt? Never would I harm my kids, they are healthy silly and smart... Oh crap if you brought my kids with me they would be like what? I deserved that, I was an inch away from getting run over by a truck and I needed to learn my lesson not to run it the road. OR, I threw rocks across the drive way and after 3 times of being told no, I hit the window and all the glass fell on my kitty, I needed a spanking... yes I did, and that my friends is how a spnaking was used in my house.
I just don't see how discussing this any further will do any good. Not unless we help someone here to NOT abuse their child... Or a child that is being abused. So, good parenting to you, hugs!

Tough parents make tough kids who become tough adults. Some who defend our country. I would never want an army of passive soldiers trying to put the enemy in the corner for being bad... lol. (Fit Via Vi) a french term that describes how we have won many wars.. "Way by Force"

Lets face the fact that some kids are different, some are going to require an whipping every now and then. Or you could just dope them up on lithium, ritalin or concerta to calm them. Some kids early on (naturally) start testing and manipulating authority, one step at a time they will take it to the limit too. When all else fails sometimes this is all they will respond to.

Ive spanked my son a few times when he was young and he got the message. I have not spanked any of my kids since. I have spanked my neices on a few occasions for being deiant. (but swatts only) No one was tramatized.


I DO NOT think spanking should be compared to physical abuse. I mean when my son messes up I don't tell to go to the laudry room, turn the iron on and wait until I get there... lol. If you feel that spanking is that wrong then maybe you was abused (or have seen abuse) and that's understandable. Or maybe you've crossed the line ans are guilty of losing control when you get angry. Or maybe you are just a bit more passive than the rest of us.

If my kid turned me in swatting his butt because he (lets say 'Stole stuff again') and I had to pay fines and do time for it. That would put me at the disadvantage as an authority, as a teacher & as a father. I don't believe I would want to be a father in these circumstances.


When I was young and my pops hit me I wish then I could have had them arested. But I don't think I would have learned my lesson for some of the stuff I did. I was a neighborhood terror and contantly had the police at the door before the age of 10. (Thanks dad for getting it into my head on how to act right. Even though I know you held back a lot.)

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Originally Posted by hossbonnam

If you feel that spanking is that wrong then maybe you was abused (or have seen abuse) and thats understandable. or maybe youve crossed the line ans are guilty of losing control when you get angry. Or maybe you are just a bit more passive than the rest of us.

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Hello hoss:

Soooo, I've been abused... Or, I'VE been the abuser... Or, I'm just not interested... Dude!

What about simply thinking that hitting your children only produces hitters,

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Originally Posted by hossbonnam

Tough parents make tough kids who become tough adults. Some who defend our country. I would never want an army of passive soldiers

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which, according to you, is a GOOD thing. Sheesh!

excon

Scenerio: Well if my town was getting shot up by terrorists I DO NOT think id call on the pansies to help defend. I would call on a 'hitter' first. If someone jumped on you with a knife in public, what kind of people do you want around. I would certainly pull him off you and strike him in order to take him down to keep you alive.

I knew a man personally who was on the flight 93 during Sept 11. He was the passive man. And from what was gathered, my friend Mickey tried to reason with them before he was slit up with a carpet cutter.

I don't think its "good" it's merely observation. If I had my way I would rid all violence all at once. We all want peace. But I don't have that say, Im in it and this what I see and this is how it is. Don t try to change things that you are confused about.


Yin Yang Theory:
For everything in existence there is an equally opposite & for every action there is an equally opposite reaction. If there was no pain, then there would be no pleasure. No love , no hate and so on. If there was no mean people their would be no pansies... lol. I mean what would you compare them too.


As a last resort people get sent to jail for being bad. Do you think people go to jail to be around and learn from fellow nice people. They go there because it's a hard violent place and if you got any sense, you don't want to go back.. ever. So you act accordingly and obey authority or well put you away again. (people get abused in prison). If I had to I would whip my sons to keep him from acting up so he does and ot end up in prison when he gets older.


FACT: Physical punishment is effective

The very threat of it keeps people from harming one another each day.

I bet if you were babysitting my neices you'd be whipping them the first hour... lol

Hello again, hoss:

In your view, you have to BE hit in order NOT to be pansy. I don't subscribe to that viewpoint.

I do agree with you, however. If you want your children to grow up to be bullies and bad a$$ soldiers or cops, then I think you're doing the right thing by abusing them.

Me?? I raised adults - not soldiers. You're free to call them pansies if that floats your boat. You're also free to think that everybody in jail is "bad". I can't correct ALL your wrongheaded thinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hossbonnam

Physical punishment is effective. The very threat of it keeps people from harming one another each day.

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In your world, I'm sure that's true.

In MINE, however, I don't hit people because it isn't civilized. I'm also equally sure, that you haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

excon

I don't have a separate world as you keep describing.
I still don't think spanking should be illegal.

Even civilized people spank their children when necessary.

I also let my son play sports even though I know he's going to get hurt from time to time.
I love competition and camaraderie. He will learn much. I will teach my son to be the Alpha and you show yours to be the Omega.

Historically:
Lest we forget the methods to which our provisions have been made.

I only here because of the caring people before my time were effective (not passive).
In early time it was necessary for even the kids to do their part in order to survive. If they did not do there part RANDOM EXAMPLE: wood piles ran low and people froze to death. Ill be damned if a boy didn't get his assed whipped for being defiant not doing his choirs.


"Spare the Rod and Spoil the child" used to be a common phrase and very true back in the day.


What is your view on spanking your dog when they are disobedient ?
what if they are biting the kids?
what if your child is biting kids?

Hello again, hoss:

I'm really glad you're here. I DO appreciate your being out front about your views. You DO reflect middle America and you are PERFECT for this thread.

You exemplify everything that I've been saying. If you weren't real, people would accuse me of planting you here.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hossbonnam

when i was young and my pops hit me I wish then i could have had them arested. But i dont think i would have learned my lesson for some of the stuff i did. I was a neighborhood terror and contantly had the police at the door before the age of 10.

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Oddly enough I don't spank my kids and no cops have ever been at my door. I wonder why?

I do spank my child - very, very rarely. But it is an option in our displine, depending on the "crime".
It is the last thing I want to do. But sometimes, it has been warranted.

I was spanked as a child - I have never been in trouble. So, what does that say. I am not sure.

I did a paper on this once. Based on my research I have discovered that:

- It teaches your child that violence is an acceptable way to express anger and deal with conflict. This contradicts the rest of how you are trying to raise your child.

- It is painful. Deliberately instilling pain on your child is cruel (even if you believe it's “for their own good”).

- It's harmful emotionally for you. Have you ever felt wonderful after hitting a child?

- It's harmful emotionally for the child, creates resentment.

- Spanking tells a child she/he is powerless.

- It breaks trust and invades a child's sense of security.

- It halts effective communication.

- Where do you go from there? Once you resort to physical discipline, the only steps “up” are more, or stronger physical discipline. Don't start down that path.
It doesn't work! In the very, very short term, you may stop the misbehavior. The backlash is not worth the very, very short term.

N.B I can't remember where I got this info from so please excuse me as I have not cited a source as this info was conducted out by research.

Hello again, hoss:

I find that I must respond again... You keep referring to pansies and alphas and omegas as though you know what they're all about. You don't. You know about being mean. An alpha male isn't mean, he's a leader.

That's a distinction you don't get.

I'll use myself as an example. I wasn't abused as a child, yet I found the need to defend my country when it was my time. I spent 5.5 years on the battlefields of Vietnam. I killed my share. I'm as alpha as you get, and I don't have a mean bone in my body.

So, with all your alpha bravado, how much blood have YOU spilled for your country?? I spilled PLENTY.

excon

No, it was only because of me that got in trouble. My 4 brothers and sisters were not as ornery. They never got in trouble with cops there whole life. But they did get a well deserved whipping when they were younger for mis beaving around the house.

Im glad for you and your well behaved children, unfortunately some folks are not as blessed. You are only one instance. So if you that not hitting your kids equals them not getting in trouble with the law. That is absurd. You're just lucky at being a good parent.

I living breathing proof that discipline works. Ive developed into a well behaved adult, a good father, a good Christian. I have an excellent career as a concept designer. And Im happy I don't get in trouble any more. Lol


Truth:
Fragile kids break easily.

I was spanked FIVE TIMES as a child. I remember EXACTLY what I did to deserve those spankings.

The spankings were resorted to when a time-out (Standing in the corner, for me), reasoning, and being grounded didn't work.

AFTER the spankings, I NEVER did those things again. EVER.

Spanking should not be illegal. Good lord, the government isn't a NANNY, for crying out loud! They shouldn't tell us how to live EVERY aspect of our lives.

Frankly, if you want them to be THAT involved as to tell us how to discipline our kids, how far is it until the step of telling us who can HAVE kids at all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hossbonnam

I living breathing proof that discipline works. Ive developed into a well behaved adult, a good father...

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How can you be a good father when you aren't around much?
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/family...ns-146671.html

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I do average 4.5 days per month with one child
And 7 days per month with the other two.

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That is not being the primary caregiver my friend.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

How can you be a good father when you aren't around much?
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/family...ns-146671.html
That is not being the primary caregiver my friend.

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That is kind of a low blow, NK. You do the best you can with what you have to work with.

Possibly. I assumed that when getting on the high horse about parenting one was actually the primary caregiver.

I have not had to spill any blood for my country.
Thank you for your service. I respect you for that.
When things get out of control, authority will commence.

Im still going to discipline my kids if necessary.
Some things are just necessary. When things get out of control,
Authority will commence.


I didn't drink the koolaid either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Possibly. I assumed that when getting on the high horse about parenting one was actually the primary caregiver.

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Everyone gets to have an opinion, I won't and don't let your opinion stop me from what I think is good parenting! I am a nice loving mother, just cause I gave my kid a spanking doesn't mean that I am not. It is the A-HOLES that give them all the time and go way too far, that is who we should really worry about! High horse? You must have a good view. Mr. I can't do anything wrong!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Possibly. I assumed that when getting on the high horse about parenting one was actually the primary caregiver.

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I get what you are saying.
But, is a person less of a parent because he or she is a "weekend parent". Are they less of a child's parent? No. I don't think so.
And I would venture to say that not everyone that has posted on this thread has kids. So, are there opinions less valid?

And, we could possibliy be going off topic... :)

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Originally Posted by startover22

Everyone gets to have an opinion, I won't and don't let your opinion stop me from what I think is good parenting! I am a nice loving mother, just cause I gave my kid a spanking doesn't mean that I am not. It is the A-HOLES that give them all the time and go way too far, that is who we should really worry about! High horse? You must have a good view. Mr. I can't do anything wrong!

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Hmmmm... I'm not sure why you seem pissed off. Perhaps it's the use of the expression "high horse" which means " A mood or attitude of stubborn arrogance or contempt". Using that xpression has nothing to do with their opinion but with the manner it is presented. My point wasn't the fact that he's for spanking but that he tries to conver that he's a better parent because he does so but uet only sees his kid 4 days a month.

NowWhat, I'm thinking of posting in the Women's Health forum a lot, I hope that's OK, I have a lot of opinions about menstruation and how it feels. :D

/raises hand

I don't have kids.

I DO have 8 nieces and nephews, though, and countless "honorable nieces and nephews" (kids of my friends).

I was also a kid once.

And frankly, as one of those people that has to put up with OTHER peoples' kids in public--I wish people WOULD just swat their kids' rear ends in the store when they act up--or just LEAVE. One or the other. Getting subjected to someone else's kid's time out when all it consists of is having to ride in the cart (screaming at the top of his/her lungs) instead of running crazy in the store is punishment for ME.

Maybe the problem is that spankings or no spankings--too many parents don't have ANY consequences that mean anything to their kids, so of COURSE the kid walks all over them.

I'm sorry--but you can't "reason" with a 3 year old.

Go for it buddy. They may not be as nice to you there though

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Maybe the problem is that spankings or no spankings--too many parents don't have ANY consequences that mean anything to their kids, so of COURSE the kid walks all over them.

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That's the crux. Empty threats are the downfall of any attempt to discipline which can result in the parent getting angry and frustrated and hitting a child for discipline. I had to haul my kid out of the mall twice with her crying her eyes out because I said I would if she would not stop what she was doing. Haven't had to do it since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synnen

And frankly, as one of those people that has to put up with OTHER peoples' kids in public--I wish people WOULD just swat their kids' rear ends in the store when they act up--or just LEAVE. One or the other. Getting subjected to someone else's kid's time out when all it consists of is having to ride in the cart (screaming at the top of his/her lungs) instead of running crazy in the store is punishment for ME.

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And then someone who doesn't feel like you do calls CPS and reports they witnessed a beating, your kids get taken away, etc.

It is a bitter cycle. I have left a store before. And it was all I could do not to beat my child when we got to the car.
I have had a child screaming in a cart before. She wasn't in trouble, she was a baby and had a poop diaper on and I had a cart of groceries and was in the check out lane. But, I digress.

It just seems like parents can't win.

NK, you know I (kinda) like you, so when I said high horse I meant, it is nice to see you come down here and get yourself a drink of water! I am sticking to it is OK to give a spanking!

I know Start. Hey whatever works for you and your family. :)

The courts would not give me custody because I work and she didn't. Im the bread winner and she's a good mother so I didn't press the issue. I can only get vistiation every other weekend because I am the non custodial.

Time is NOT relevant, some can do more with little amounts of time. The judge can only be the children when they are older. So far I think I'm doing pretty good. We really do love one another and laugh more often than not.

I still don't see where spanking should be illegal. What's next, we can't yell at our kids either?

My sister has 4 girls. Her 5 year old come at her with a knife once. She got a butt whippin. Now she is maintained on Seraquel anti phycotic med. At the time I don't think she would have responded to a timeout. She was out of control. None of the others sisters have ever acted this way.

Not good practice to spank any child in public, its humiliating. Plus you really can get your kids taking off you.

The question was should it be illegal or not?

Im not saying that whipping a kid makes you a better parent. The amount of time spent is just as irrelavant. It's a parents choice to determine what is appropriate.

Some parents do not have a high tollerance no patience to use other means of correction. Some are just plain ignorant. If you got to go to jail every time you spank a child is ludicris. Can you picture Johnny no brains trying to keep his kids from beating on one another by his idea of non vilolent good parenting tactics. Hed probably offer them a beer or something. Lol



I like the one comment about 'maybe the government should step in and limit who can have kids and who cant.' Maybe we should have to take an aptitude test or something. And if you score high you obtain swatting privilages... lol


I do feel that if a child is brought up in a good home with good parents they will have more of a chance to become good parents for their kids.


My sons stepdad has whipped my son and it bothered me deeply. It was a tough situation because he was given permission by my ex-wife. I asked that it not be done again. So far so good.

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Originally Posted by Sanjay Persad

Do you think that spanking a child should be illegal?

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I am totally against spanking a child. In 22 years of parenting, with three children, I have never had to spank even once, and never would. That being said, I don't believe it should be illegal, mostly because I don't believe it's a law that could be enforced properly.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

It may not be illegal but if some one reports it to Child protective services they most often do treat it like it is illegal and then you are put through hell over it. I know many people who are afraid to discipline their kids other than reward system because of CPS.

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Depends on the state where you live, I think. In our state, the only thing that is illegal is if you leave marks that remain for more than... I can't remember if it's fifteen or thirty minutes. And discipline means to TEACH, so there are a multitude of ways to discipline your children that don't include hitting or bribing them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanjay Persad

So based on the bible, u agree with the phrase "Spare the rod and spoil the child"?

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The shepherd's rod is used to lead the sheep, to show them the right way to go. It is NOT used to hit them. So, in the proper context, I DO agree with that phrase.

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Originally Posted by startover22

So, when your child runs across the street and/or does something dangerous like that...you are gonna give him/her a time out??:rolleyes:

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No, I never used time out as a discipline tool with my children. They were never given the CHANCE to run into the street. Until they were old enough to think clearly and realize the consequences of their actions, keeping them safe from harm was my responsibility, so I kept them out of harm's way. I wouldn't have ever thought to hit them for slacking in my duty to them, which is the only thing that would have resulted in them having the opportunity to run into the street.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes, I know where the non spankers are comming from, a sad state of liberal education and not enough spanking when they were a child most likely. Of course it is often there children I see destroying everything in sight as the parent ignores them and then gets upset when a stanger yells at them to behave.

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I was spanked as a child. Know what it taught me? It taught me anger, and it taught me to be more sneaky and creative. My children, who are now 22, 18 and 15, were taught proper ways to behave, and were never allowed to get by with misbehaving, in public or in private.

What the hell kind of priest are you?? I can tell you , you have turned me off priests, AND RELIGION

Tch

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Originally Posted by cut_ie

What the hell kinda priest are you???, i can tell you , you have turned me off priests, AND RELIGION
tch

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And you haven't even seen the homophobia yet. :D

If the government can tell me how to raise my kids, then they can feed , cloth, and house them too!

Love your children. Love someone else's if you can. Don't hurt them, just love them best you can. If you see abuse report it. That is what us adults are here for. Protecting them, they can't protect themselves, so moms, dads, granparents, brothers, sisters, and friends, stand up and help, don't just sit back and watch! I think that is what really needs to be said, cause I can bet one out of ten (maybe less) of you have been involved in some sort of abuse that could have been prevented if someone would have stood up and taken action!

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Originally Posted by startover22

Love your children. Love someone elses if you can. Dont hurt them, just love em best you can. If you see abuse report it. That is what us adults are here for. Protecting them, they can't protect themselves, so moms, dads, granparents, brothers, sisters, and friends, stand up and help, don't just sit back and watch!! I think that is what really needs to be said, cause I can bet one outta ten (maybe less) of you have been involved in some sort of abuse that could have been prevented if someone would have stood up and taken action!

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Start--while I agree that ABUSE should be reported---swatting a kid on his butt isn't abuse.

Abuse is backhanding the kid across the room.

A bit of a difference, hmmm?

Really--the biggest difference between a spanking and abuse is that a spanking is done to correct a child. Abuse is to vent your own anger.

Sadly, most states have laws that as long as you don't leave bruises while beating your child, it's not abuse. Also, if the bruises you leave behind are not totally conclusive, they will not be acknowleged. My husband ex-wife, and her new husband, regularly beat the living tar out of our youngest son, who as ADHD and ADD. We even had them in court for that... but the judge said, no no... send them back to these people, and tell them not to leave bruises.
So, spanking... ONLY for a small child, for safety violations (such as running out on to the road etc) never more then 3 light blows, on the behind only, and only with your bare hands. Usually that will get the point of "Hey, if I do that again, it's really going to hurt" across.

There is no need to spank a child. A bully. Picture yourself in prison and a guy bigger than you starts to take advantage of you. If the man can build nuclear powered aircraft carriers then there is another way to treat a child