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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Again - I don't think the very advice you offered on another thread worked for you. Your wife cheated. I don't cross-posting is a low blow. If you post it, expect it to be read. Not the least uncommon around here to read other posts to see where someone is coming from. You'd be amazed by the number of people who post totally different stories on different threads.

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I was only kidding... and forgot to use the smiley face... it was referencing about my personal failure in marriage.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Concerning the person your wife had her affair with - your wife had an affair behind your back and presumably lied to you on at least one occasion, you being the "nice guy" in this scenario (by your own description). The man she picked for the affair was (in your own words) a total "a-hole." She also picked a friend/neighbor, not a stranger.

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Clarification... There was only one guy.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I'll tell you what I tell the men I date who are divorced and spend the evening tearing their ex-wives apart - "You married her. If she's such a loser, what are you?" Your wife must have seen something in this man. And if she took up with a total "a-hole" what does that make her?

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As a matter of fact, I blamed myself for the failure of our marriage. My questions were what I could've done to prevented the cheating.

I thought I was only describing the situation. No ripping her apart.
It is really hard to show balance in writing about this situation, with so many factors.
I blame more on Josh (more than 50/50) for "gaming" my wife from seeing the weakness in our marriage. I understand, it was still my wife's decision to do it. My failure was in part of not living up to standard of what being a Man should be.

I did some changes... before, I didn't care what others thought of me. I was the big kid, I didn't care if I was playing tag with my kids and dressing up in silly costumes with my kids. Now, I don't do that, because this is not what a mature man does. You lose RESPECT and attraction value. We are talking about another housewife and my wife talking about my Halloween Costume and the other housewife rolling her eyes.

I still do things with my kids... like coaching Volleyball just the two of us, working on Projects, etc... just not the silly stuff.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Sorry to be harsh but you are looking for someone to say something that I don't think you are going to hear, whatever that may be.

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Really not looking for someone to say something that I want to hear about my situation.
I don't even know what I want to hear... except a new theory why it happened.

I really want people to see that we have gone too far with the equal thing.
Before you beat me up with Women's Rights issues... I am talking about going too far the other way and abusing Men and affecting the "Natural" order of a man and woman relationship... in very subtle ways, in which I believe is undermining the institution of marriage.

But than again Judy this is what I want to hear from you... "You're my Super Hero... SVIMager knows it All and more than any Woman out there.." hehe...

I think we've said all that has to be said and I DO hear what you are saying.

One clarification of a clarification (here's where the smiley face should go) - when I referred to your wife lying to you on more than one occasion I meant lying to you to explain where she was, where she had been, something along those lines. I did NOT mean that there had been more than one man outside your marrriage.

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Originally Posted by SVImager

As a matter of fact, I blamed myself for the failure of our marriage. My questions were what I could've done to prevented the cheating.
..........
Really not looking for someone to say something that I want to hear about my situation.
I don't even know what I want to hear.... except a new theory why it happened.
..

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Hi SVImager!

I read some of your posts in the other thread and here. I like your optimistic, and analytical responses (on other threads).

I would like to say that I like the way you have thought through your life post your big incident. You seem to have handled it very patiently, without taking angry hasty decisions. I think it is commendable that you continue to learn from it and help others too.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by tara1

Hi SVImager!

I read some of your posts in the other thread and here. I like your optimistic, and analytical responses (on other threads).

I would like to say that I like the way you have thought through your life post your big incident. You seem to have handled it very patiently, without taking angry hasty decisions. I think it is commendable that you continue to learn from it and help others too.

Cheers!

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It would have been more appropriate for you to send this via PM, not on a thread with a very specific topic.

You never addressed the topic at all. :(

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Originally Posted by tara1

Hi SVImager!

I read some of your posts in the other thread and here. I like your optimistic, and analytical responses (on other threads).

I would like to say that I like the way you have thought through your life post your big incident. You seem to have handled it very patiently, without taking angry hasty decisions. I think it is commendable that you continue to learn from it and help others too.

Cheers!

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Thanks Tara1..

Really appreciate your validation and comment.

My goal is to in Still Hope and reason "Why" for Men that are going through a similar situation.
This Strong Women's Right belief is stomping on "Respecting your Man"... maybe we need to reinforce the balance. (BTW, I am Pro-Choice... in a household and neighborhood full of Pro-Lifers... so I am not coming from the right... I am left going toward center. I do believe it is Life, but I do believe it is 100% Mother's choice. The Baby is citizen of one inside the Mom, no man-made gov't should overcome the God ordain sovereignty of the Mother. I'll save this for another thread. Staying on Topic... )

So, How can a Man retain his Respect in a relationship if his spouse is very strong willed and capitulates to his wife?
Can we agree that "Why some women cheat because There is a lost of REspect"?

Sure... I can agree that SOME women MIGHT cheat for that reason.

I think that there's a lack of respect involved whenever ANYONE cheats, personally.

BUT--there are as many reasons for cheating as there are cheaters.

I am not talking about Extremes... Like a Serial Cheater... They will cheat no matter what or out of habit.

Lost of Respect as the very first thing to go... as Cheating is just the symptom of something wrong with the relationship.

Lost of Respect as the very First Sign to look for.
In this case it would be extreme case of under the breathe comments on the man's failures.

No--I disagree.

Lack of solid communication is usually the MAIN problem.

THAT leads to lack of respect for each other by BOTH parties. She mumbles about his failures, he fails to do the simple things she asks him to do. He mutters under his breath about his controlling wife, she stews in anger about the fact he comes home from work every night and plunks himself down in front of the TV or computer and they never go out anymore.

It's COMMUNICATION, every time. And communication involves BOTH parties.

And I'm not talking about serial cheaters either. I'm absolutely serious about reasons for cheating having to do with the specific cheater. In my case, it was being taken completely for granted, and ignored no matter how many times I tried to tell him what I was feeling--or if it wasn't ignored, it was downplayed. When someone DID pay attention to me, then, it was like a drug, and VERY heady. It's hard to ignore the excitement of feeling attractive and fun after being ignored and taken for granted.

He and I recently had a conversation about it, 10 years after the fact, and he STILL does not believe that he treated me badly. I agree--he didn't. He treated me with indifference, which was worse.

By the way--our relationship is 50/50. We both give our all to it. We learned from what happened, and neither takes the other for granted. He's never been less of a man to me, and I never lost my respect for him. I just lost my self-esteem, my self-respect, and my honor in doing what I did.

What I'm saying is that part of the reason I started dating and have stayed with my husband is because he DOES stand up to me. He does tell me when I'm wrong, and he has NO problem putting his foot down when it's important. That doesn't mean he wears the pants--it means that he stands up for his side of the relationship. I do the same things to him. I'd consider myself a strong woman, and NEED a strong man to compliment that. That doesn't mean I need him to boss me around--it means I need him to not let ME boss HIM around. That doesn't mean we need to have specific gender roles--he does most of the cooking in our house, and I do the car maintenance. It just means that in order to have a good working relationship, you have to have TWO people committed to ONE relationship.

I said right from the beginning that any time I spoke with a "cheater" I heard "attention," not sex, not anything else. Yes, maybe if someone cheats on a person that person cheats in revenge but that's not what "we're" talking about.

I NEED to be able to look my partner in my eyes and talk about anything - good, bad, indifferent. I NEED a straight-shooter, an honest person, someone who knows himself.

Some time after I got divorced it occurred to me that the "other woman" paid my husband a great deal of attention, stroked his ego, thought he was the greatest thing since kitty litter. And I took him for granted. It takes two people to get married and it takes two people to get divorced. I was not faultless.

And I did NOT make that mistake the second time around and I'm NOT making that mistake this time.

And I've said it before and I'll probably say it again - Synnen, your candor, honesty, heart, blow me away every time. Your husband is a lucky man - I'm not paying you lip service. I mean it.

You bring so much to these threads!

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

...after I got divorced it occurred to me that the "other woman" paid my husband a great deal of attention, stroked his ego, thought he was the greatest thing since kitty litter. And I took him for granted.

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Isn't that "Respect"?
Men wants unconditional Respect.
Women wants unconditional Love.

These are not my theories.
These are from Biblical study guides and Gaming Women (Very Secular) guides.


What I am talking about is, How did we get to the point of:
Taking Him for Granted
Thinking of him as a Loser
Losing that spark and passion
Not caring for each other's Dreams

Yep.. it is 50/50 fault.
But it is preventable on his part, if he knows what he is doing wrong.
Much of it takes maturity and understanding your spouse.
And mostly knowing how to be a Man.
And so far what I believe is that a strong willed woman will cheat on her spouse or have one cheat on her due to the imbalance and struggle of the relationship... outside of other extreme factors and issues.

Why a "Strong Willed Woman?"
Because if he is not up to her standards, she will put him down and disrespect him.
This disrespect (thinking of him as a Loser) will lead to the allure (outside of the Real Life issue filter) exciting, forbidden & passionate affair.
Everything that is unAttractive is seemingly done by the husband.
Whereas the Other Man has all the Attractive qualities plus the filter away from dealing with Real Life issues.
This is also the reason why it is so much easier to game housewives of 5, 10,17 years marriage.

No... I'm telling you, it was the OTHER WAY AROUND for most of the women I know who've cheated.

HE took HER for granted. HE didn't respect HER.

It had nothing to do with how "manly" he was. It have EVERYTHING to do with his lack of effort into effective communication. Guys don't like to TALK about their feelings--they see that as "unmanly". Well, guess what? If you do NOT talk about your feelings, she sees you as uninterested.

I state again: There's a HUGE difference between a nice guy and a doormat.

I also think that the Bible is full of crap when it comes to women--St. Paul was a classic misogynist, and frankly, the idea of being subservient and letting a man have all the power in a relationship is repugnant to me.

If he knows what he's doing WRONG, then there is communication in the relationship. I say again that the problem isn't that he's not manly enough or too manly--it's that the couple is not communicating with each other effectively.

People cheat for MANY MANY reasons. I've never known ANYONE before now who has stated it's because he wasn't man enough, and wasn't acting in his gender role that was the problem. Yeah, it's a problem if he caters to her every whim and never stands up for himself--but that's not being a nice guy, that's being a doormat. NO ONE respects a door mat--Male OR female.

Look--a power struggle is the effect of lack of communication--NOT the effect of men not being manly enough, or women not falling back into expected gender roles.

If someone isn't up to your standards, you shouldn't marry them in the first place--but that's WHOLE another topic.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

That doesn't mean we need to have specific gender roles--

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I only describe the extreme of the gender roles... as in the 1950' s Man and Woman.
To show what are the extremes..

A Superior Man is a balance of his Masculinity and his Feminine sides.
That means opening up to talk and being able not to be taken advantage of.


Thank you for sharing.
That is very interesting with your situation with Communication... first.
In my situation, It was the Respect First. Not cleaning up to her standards or displaying Lower Values and when the affair or leading in to affair started... Communication channel was shutting down. It was secrecy and passwords and the demand for space & distance.

Right--so you weren't communicating with each other. And a lot of it was that she was not communicating with you--or not doing so effectively.

And I'm betting that in trying to communicate with her, you put her on the defensive, which only made communication harder.

When effective communication in a relationship goes, it's my opinion that the results are loss of respect for each other, loss of trust for each other, and loss of drive to put your energy into the relationship.

This is why I recommend couples counseling so often when I see couples struggling to communicate with each other--sometimes all that's needed is a third-party "translator" to make the other person's point of view more clear.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

No...I'm telling you, it was the OTHER WAY AROUND for most of the women I know who've cheated.

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HAHA!! Aren't we all trying to play Victim here... OK OK back to reading.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Right--so you weren't communicating with each other. And a lot of it was that she was not communicating with you--or not doing so effectively.

And I'm betting that in trying to communicate with her, you put her on the defensive, which only made communication harder.

When effective communication in a relationship goes, it's my opinion that the results are loss of respect for each other, loss of trust for each other, and loss of drive to put your energy into the relationship.

This is why I recommend couples counseling so often when I see couples struggling to communicate with each other--sometimes all that's needed is a third-party "translator" to make the other person's point of view more clear.

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Uh... No... we did have communication first.
Lost Communication after the lost of Respect by being the Nice Guy.

Hmmmm... The Chicken or the Egg question...
Both are equally important... and both were lost when the affair began... Can we agree on this part?

As a matter of fact, I always have communication.
That was why I was in search of "Why did it happen?"
Believe me, I thought "Communication" was key.
Communication was what guilt her into telling me the truth.
I love her and I trust her... I told my wife, "I know there is something wrong, but what ever it is we will overcome it together... no matter what." That was at 9PM... At 2AM, She started cursing and woke me up... I thought oh God, she is crazy, how am I going to deal with this... and then she told me the truth.

The Truth set her free... The pain I felt was the most intense ever (but not as painful as watching my child getting stitches). Yes we shared the pain that night, I could see why she couldn't bare it alone anymore and needed to release the burden... on me.

Don't rely on Communication Alone.
It is not the prevention of affairs.

I let my wife take the car today by herself... so she can go shopping for the foods she like.

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Originally Posted by SVImager

I let my wife take the car today by herself... so she can go shopping for the foods she like.

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Let her?

I have my own car, which I paid for with money I earned. Yes, I am woman, hear me roar!

I only read this last page, but it sounds to me like you've taken the role of the 1812 husband, walk 10 steps behind me because I have a penis, ask permission for the use of the things I buy, be submissive and subservient. If your wife is okay with that, then fine, but she's not the norm.

I hate to burst your bubble but the only difference between you and me is our body parts. You have a penis, I have a vagina, other then that, we're equal.

If you're wife is willing to lower herself, her self esteem, be your submissive obedient wife, then she's taking a major leap back, in my opinion.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, not for me, never will be, no matter what. It's not worth the price I'd pay.

Thankfully my husband knows that my place is right beside him, not 10 steps behind, barefoot and pregnant.

I let my wife do stuff all the time.
I let her know that I love her with all my heart.
I let het know that I will be there for her no matter what.
I let her know that because she is recovering from surgery, I won't be going to work at all this week.
I let her know when we first started dating, that I would always treat her as equal, actually a notch ABOVE me.

No, I am not a "metrosexual", weaker than normal kind of guy. I am a man who hunts and cleans game, who has a tractor and keeps it running. Who knows how to use basically every tool that's been made. Who knows how to do anything that is considered "manly". But I also know how to cook, clean,sew, take care of my children and not just watch them. I know their medicine, teachers ( field trip today) doctors, allergies, etc. I know how to use the right washing powder, basically anything that ISN'T considered manly.

I let her do all sorts of things, except be married to some a$$ that thinks that he's better than her.

I don't expect any special award for doing the things that I am supposed to do. I do them because I care. And know that I have been blessed by having such a great WOMAN in my life.

JM, I really wish I could rep you. :)

1 million greenies for you.

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Originally Posted by jmjoseph

I let my wife do stuff all the time.
I let her know that I love her with all my heart.
I let het know that I will be there for her no matter what.
I let her know that because she is recovering from surgery, I won't be going to work at all this week.
I let her know when we first started dating, that I would always treat her as equal, actually a notch ABOVE me.

No, I am not a "metrosexual", weaker than normal kind of guy. I am a man who hunts and cleans game, who has a tractor and keeps it running. Who knows how to use basically every tool that's been made. Who knows how to do anything that is considered "manly". But I also know how to cook, clean,sew, take care of my children and not just watch them. I know their medicine, teachers ( field trip today) doctors, allergies, etc. I know how to use the right washing powder, basically anything that ISN'T considered manly.

I let her do all sorts of things, except be married to some a$$ that thinks that he's better than her.

I don't expect any special award for doing the things that I am supposed to do. I do them because I care. And know that I have been blessed by having such a great WOMAN in my life.

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HAHA!!
I let my wife give me a back rub.
I was only kidding... I was trying to get a rise out of the Screaming Woman's Right Activist. I didn't even get one real roar.


Anyway, Joe... That special woman in your life... is that your wife? Your girlfriend? Your Ex? Who is she?