And again I get to debate how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Ok the founders ;even the ones like Jefferson (who still believed in the concept of "nature's god",were men who lived before Darwin. It would've never occurred to them to separate natural law from a creator .

And where is God in the Constitution ? It is in the Ratification Clause (Article VII)
done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names, [/I]

The LORD referred to is not the King of England. The phrase "in the year of our Lord" in the Constitution replaced"in the year of our reign" use by kings in royal decrees.

Also ,in the Preamble the phrase "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" was nothing less than linking the governing document with the document of principles that is the Declaration of Independence.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

You can't help Tom he is like the NRA guns are an answer to everything, right now they are running scared and so they should be, they have encouraged these weapons in the community

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Here's a flashback from 2000... back then the libs had no problem with the NRA proposal of putting more cops in the schools .

Clinton Pledges Funds to Add Police to Schools - Los Angeles Times

This was one year after the Columbine shootings . There was at that time an active ban on "assault rifles " .

Hello tom:

Like your right wing brethren, you're using the tragedy to BASH the opposition INSTEAD of finding a meaningful ANSWER to our problem.. I suppose if my party had been wasted like YOURS was, I'd try to resurrect something too.

But, your views have been repudiated. The country thinks we should be doing LESS to women. Your party thinks it should do MORE. The country thinks we should be LESS mean to the undocumented. Your party thinks it should do MORE.

I could go on, and on, and on. But, my point is, the country thinks we should have LESS guns, and LESS magazines, and your party thinks we should have MORE.

You guys are OUT of STEP. We've moved "Forward", to coin a phrase. Gun control WILL happen. I can't IMAGINE that you don't get the MOOD of the country... On second thought, you don't LISTEN to the MOOD of the country.

excon

Hello again,

As we've discussed in the past, I'm an adherent to the belief that an ARMED society, is a POLITE society. What I DON'T know, is whether an ARMED society, is a SAFE society.

I'm beginning to think it's NOT.

excon

My party ? Why don't you start your efforts in the inner cities of America where the loss of life in the Connecticut suburb is a typical weekend . You want to start controlling guns.. then go after the illegal ones used routinely in New Orleans ,Jacksonville ,Newark and Chi-town. But you won' t because your;e afraid that you would trample on some gangbanger's rights .

The country mourns Connecticut and gives a collective yawn to those weekly tragedies. So spare me this sudden discovery that guns in the wrong hands are unsafe .

Hello again, tom:

Now, I'm NOT a student of history, like you are. But, there's a curb on the First Amendment that essentially says that you can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater. I don't know if that was a REAL case or just a metaphor, but the CURBS are REAL.

I'll just BET that when liberals proposed those curbs, that conservatives yelled about it, kind of like they're yelling today.. But, reason prevailed, and we have a CURB on the First Amendment. And the sky didn't fall.

excon

Again you make the false claim that I am speaking in absolutes while on this thread alone there are countless examples of where I said I am not. BTW ;most free speech restrictions are oppressive so the exception you cite is not the rule.

The 'shouting fire 'example is a metaphor that was used by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in the 1919 Schenck v. United States decision. He was wrong in his ruling regardless of the metaphor . (what a surprise... a bad SCOTUS decision!) It was in support of the Wilson 1918 Sedition Act. Holmes said that the act was permissible because protests against WWI were a clear and present danger to the government recruiting effort . The metaphor also only applies to a false shout of fire. If there really is a fire ;it's probably a good idea to shout it out.

Hello again, tom:

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He was wrong in his ruling regardless of the metaphor

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So, you think yelling fire in a crowded theater where this is NONE, is PROTECTED speech? You don't, do you?

Excon

I was speaking of the case he was deciding ;which was authoritarian . You can't tell me you agree that protesting a war is sedition?? Holmes tried tying the idea of yelling fire in a crowded theater as a First Amendment exception to the idea restricting speech against the government in wartime .He was absolutely wrong .

Hello again, tom:

That's funny... A case WRONGLY decided resulted in one of the most accepted curbs on freedom of speech..

excon

It was reversed in 1969 in Brandenburg v. Ohio . The Brandenburg test bans speech only if it incites or could incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

Like your right wing brethren, you're using the tragedy to BASH the opposition INSTEAD of finding a meaningful ANSWER to our problem..

excon

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You want a solution. A permanent one that provides protection as well as routes for safety of the children. How about this.

Every classroom gets a 12 ga semi auto shotgun in it. The principle or admin staff get a cabinet full of them. All you need to do is provide the right training and fill them with bean bags. Even a poor shot that goes awry won't harm the children. And the shooter goes down no matter what they are wearing. You can stop them from breathing if you hit them repeatedly.

Just a suggestion from here.


Bean Bag Ammunition For Sale : 12ga Ballistic Bean Bag Rounds for your Shotgun : Power Punch Bean Bag - Keepshooting®

Non-lethal shotgun training - YouTube

Shot by Shotgun with Bean Bag Shot - YouTube

Hello again, dad:

The problem is there's TOO many guns.. Not too little.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

The problem is there's TOO many guns.. Not too little.

excon

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And just what is your idea of a solution that is realistic. I know you have had military trainiing and may have had access to some of the more high powered weapons. So what do you suggest as the defense against them?

Hello again, dad:

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So what do you suggest as the defense against them?

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LESS of them. Or at least LESS of them with giant, huge, humongous magazines. That can easily be done. You get LESS of them when you CLOSE the gun show loophole. You get LESS of them, when a REAL background checks can be done ON THE SPOT.

I'm not a fan of eliminating assault rifles, because it's only LOOKS that make it different from your ordinary hunting rifle. But, if it results is LESS guns on the street, then let's do that.

You do those things IN COMBINATION with a re-introduction of our nations mental health responsibilities... You do that when the country is READY to do it because this IS the last massacre.

Nobody wants to interfere with YOUR right to defend your family, collect guns if you wish, and hunt to your hearts content. None of the restrictions I mention DO that to you.

Of course, Republicans STILL control the House, and they'll STILL be able to filibuster the Senate, so I don't see ANY of those reforms being enacted.

I SAW Wayne La Pierre. He's INTRANSIGENT! If the NRA is as powerful as I think it is, there won't be ONE Republican who'll vote for ANY reforms..

Excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

The problem is there's TOO many guns.. Not too little.

excon

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Simple solution buy them back

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Originally Posted by paraclete

simple solution buy them back

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That doesn't work. It been tried many times.

Hello again, clete:

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simple solution buy them back

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We're doing that. San Diego gun buyback nets a record 364 weapons. Other communities are doing it too.

Excon

That's good Ex it's a start, if the rewards are big enough it will work