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Originally Posted by paraclete

Let me try and answer your question. Because of the rambo mystique. there is a belief that a courageous, if inadequately trained citizen, will be victorious over an armed attacker, that the attacker will back off if confronted. The attacker in the Newtown case went prepared to be confronted, he wore a bullet proof vest, proving his obvious intent to fight it out. there is also some sort of belief that the US is about to suffer some form of invasion which will require the average citizen to defend themselves, thus they need weapons with high magazine capacity. this is some sort of hangover from the revolution and it is true that for about fifty years they might have had reason for concern. Fact is they have created the situation where they need to defend themselves against each other. This is called paranoia

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I understand that you have a personal vandetta to settle with the world. I get that. But your constant trips into fantasy land are just so tiring. I guess what your trying to say is that anyone that is proficient with a firearm is a rambo no matter how much they may train or what their background is. News flash. Police kill innocent people all the time because they don't train as much as many of the people that I know that are responsible gun owners.

It is also a sport as well. But in your mind if someone were to shoot back you assume that the attacker will just stand there and keep picking other targets rather then being distracted by the bullets coming his/her way.

That isn't going to happen. The confusion alone could save lives. But return fire by responsible gun owners would most likely result in the perp assuming room temprature in a very short time with full ventilation.

So if you want to win hearts and minds then at least center yourself in the real world and not hide behind the shadows of your past.

And I also wonder why it is assumed that any civilian with a gun is automatically "inadequately trained"... How is that? I'll give you that not everyone that owns or carries a gun is fully trained but to assume that simply because you're a civilian that you aren't trained... it's just wrong. I know plenty of civilians (myself included) that are better with guns than the police are. I know plenty of civilians that have had adequate training. Just because you wear a badge doesn't automatically make you adequately trained.

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Originally Posted by odinn7

And I also wonder why it is assumed that any civilian with a gun is automatically "inadequately trained"....How is that? I'll give you that not everyone that owns or carries a gun is fully trained but to assume that simply because you're a civilian that you aren't trained...it's just wrong. I know plenty of civilians (myself included) that are better with guns than the police are. I know plenty of civilians that have had adequate training. Just because you wear a badge doesn't automatically make you adequately trained.

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Yeh I know a lot pass through the military. It seems from your remarks that your police training should be brought up to speed, But it isn't just an assumption, owning a gun, going to the range now and then, isn't training to aim and kill or maim, there is a lot more to it

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

I guess what your trying to say is that anyone that is proficient with a firearm is a rambo no matter how much they may train or what their background is.

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I think he is referring to your ethos. Ex's post #122

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Originally Posted by TUT317

I think he is referring to your ethos. Ex's post #122

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My ethos is I know enough about the stupidiy associated with guns, and violent fantasy, to understand it fueled by violent videos, games and so on in unbalanced individuals. I have a great deal of life experience in these issues, experience I would rather not have gained. I'm on the side of the victims of gun violence. I understand, as is demonstrated in societies all over the world that the restriction of gun ownership is clearly demonstrated to reduce casualities associated with gun use and the slaughter of innocents. As I said much earlier there is a higher right than the right to own a gun, and that right is the right to life. This is the point no one wants to argue. They don't realise that having a gun in every home is not an assurance of security, it is reinforcing an ethos that if you want to succeed in criminal activities you must kill or be killed. This is not an attack on commerce, it is not an attack on liberty, it is a simple statement, the opening words of a well know document right to life, stated before any other rights.

As part of the stupidity I speak about, are you aware that Bushmaster promote a man-card as part of their gun marketing and that they revoked the shooter's man-card after he used a bushmaster to slaughter 26 people. How stupid can you get? Rhetorical question, I know.

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This is not an attack on commerce, it is not an attack on liberty, it is a simple statement, the opening words of a well know document right to life, stated before any other rights.

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The founders did not list them according to importance. But it is also self evident that life ,liberty and property(or as the founders put it the 'persuit of happiness') ,if they are a rights ,needs to be defended... and a person does have that right... really.. they do.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Yeh I know a lot pass through the military. It seems from your remarks that your police training should be brought up to speed, But it isn't just an assumption, owning a gun, going to the range now and then, isn't training to aim and kill or maim, there is a lot more to it

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And again... you don't know what kind of training I have had... what kind of training anyone has had. You only assume that our training is no more than just going to the range now and then. How do you know this? As I said earlier, I'll give you that not every gun owner is properly trained for a "situation" but don't sit there and make a blanket assumption (stated as true fact) that every gun owner has no training other than maybe the range now and then.

One of our Texas reps has the answer, install automatic retractable steel walls in every school in America. Frankly I like the alligator filled moat idea better.

Hello again, Steve:

I heard your congressman Gomert wishing the teacher in Connecticut HAD an assault rifle so she could have STOPPED the carnage... I've never heard anything more STUPID in my life.

Your vision for America, Steve, is a far cry from MY vision. Good thing YOUR vision has been REPUDIATED. There WON'T be MORE arming of America. There WILL be LESS. Live with it.

excon

You have no idea what my vision for America is, you've spent years painting your own deluded picture of what you THINK it is.

FYI, we already have districts in Texas that arm teachers and train them to respond. You must not have any idea how many rural schools we have in this nation that are literally in the middle of nowhere. They can't rely on law enforcement, they're too far away. It makes more sense than imprisoning kids in steel walled schools.

Of course your side has resisted every effort we've made to get kids out of dangerous, failing public schools and making sure we have a culture that considers human life disposable. Your Hollywood libs are just as hypocritical in feeding us ever more violence, sex and filth before getting on their soap boxes about peace, love and the decline of civility.

You have a Democrat in Michigan saying there will be blood, a union thug warning of civil war, teachers that are "doing it for the kids" faking illness and getting fake doctor's excuses to go throw their little temper tantrums instead of caring for the children.

You yourself have been thumping your chest over a WAR on women. We have a VP who warns we're going to put blacks back in chains, and all manner of other uncivil, bloody, violent imagery and behavior from the left. Why the heck should we take you seriously?

P.S. You know where the sharpest rise in gun ownership has occurred? Among Democrats, women and every region but the south. They're just taking after Biden and Reid and their love for Berettas, and Feinstein who used to (and may still) carry everywhere she went. I think it's time you minded your own house instead of invading my peaceful home.

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You have no idea what my vision for America is, you've spent years painting your own deluded picture of what you THINK it is.

FYI, we already have districts in Texas that arm teachers and train them to respond. You must not have any idea how many rural schools we have in this nation that are literally in the middle of nowhere. They can't rely on law enforcement, they're too far away. It makes more sense than imprisoning kids in steel walled schools.

Of course your side has resisted every effort we've made to get kids out of dangerous, failing public schools and making sure we have a culture that considers human life disposable. Your Hollywood libs are just as hypocritical in feeding us ever more violence, sex and filth before getting on their soap boxes about peace, love and the decline of civility.

You have a Democrat in Michigan saying there will be blood, a union thug warning of civil war, teachers that are "doing it for the kids" faking illness and getting fake doctor's excuses to go throw their little temper tantrums instead of caring for the children.

You yourself have been thumping your chest over a WAR on women. We have a VP who warns we're going to put blacks back in chains, and all manner of other uncivil, bloody, violent imagery and behavior from the left. Why the heck should we take you seriously?

P.S. You know where the sharpest rise in gun ownership has occurred? Among Democrats, women and every region but the south. They're just taking after Biden and Reid and their love for Berettas, and Feinstein who used to (and may still) carry everywhere she went. I think it's time you minded your own house instead of invading my peaceful home.

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Bravo! F'ing BRAVO! Standing ovation!

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. Your Hollywood libs are just as hypocritical in feeding us ever more violence, sex and filth before getting on their soap boxes about peace, love and the decline of civility.

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... then driving away in their limo with their armed security guard.

Interesting and important point you make about rural and urban environments. I can see where a smaller community would have to rely more on each other rather than law enforcement for safety and protection. I can see a principal or teacher being the fire chief or the police chief. Even the barber. Or wearing all the above hats

That's food for thought.

How small is that community, just big enough to murder yourself?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The founders did not list them according to importance. But it is also self evident that life ,liberty and property(or as the founders put it the 'persuit of happiness') ,if they are a rights ,needs to be defended .....and a person does have that right ...really ..they do.

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Hi Tom,

They need to be defended because they are self-evident, or they need to be defended because they are a right?

Think it through carefully before you answer.


Tut

Don't have to think hard at all the words weren't parced in the Declaration of Independence :

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

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The self evident truth is about the rights .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

don't have to think hard at all the words weren't parced in the Declaration of Independence :

the self evident truth is about the rights .

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Ok then it is a self-evident truth. Do you know what a self-evident truth is?

Tut

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Originally Posted by tomder55

don't have to think hard at all the words weren't parced in the Declaration of Independence :

The self evident truth is about the rights .

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I think you are guilty of revisionism Tom and yet you keep telling us about original intent

You cannot get more original than this

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

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I cannot see a number of things in there, in particular property, nor do I see guns. Now I know that a lot can be read into the word among, but because they are not specifically stated they rank a little lower.What you have been just telling us is words mean whatever you want them to mean

Wow it's been a long time since I took this quiz. A truth is a fact. A self evident truth is so obvious that it's well understood without having to provide proof . To save time I'll offer that an unalienable right is a natural right as recognized by the thinkers of the Enlightement What's your point ?