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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Heads up to everyone! Unless you read through this entire thread (some 54 posts) you cannot figure out the background, which is needed to have an opinion.

Personally - I glazed over.

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here is the background. Mother filed for custody in 2007. 19 mos later she got primary custody and we got joing legal. Since then, its my belief she denied me visitation at least 3 times. I also felt that CS should be lowered due to economic hardship so I filed a show cause against her as well as a modificaiton of support. Hearing was set for early March. We both have always represented ourselves but this time she has a family law atty. Lawyer filed discovery and I didnt respond. Lawyer filed discovery for mostly financial info and asked for a continuance. Case was continued to next week so we go to court in a few days. I didnt respond by deadline so laywer filed MTC. Just recently I got an order from court ordering me to produce the documents. I just submitted them on the last day of the deadline to the lawyer.

I just want to know am I out of the clear of having to pay ex fees since i gave them some of the info?

And thanks, I do appreciate all the help I have gotten so far. this is a great site.

No, you're probably not. You probably have to pay the attorney's fees and you cost yourself even more dough by dragging it out. Every time her attorney had to file another piece of paper because you didn't act, you just took more money out of your own pocket.

I'm also curious as to how it's "your belief" that she denied you visitation. It's not religion; there's no room for belief. Either she denied you or she didn't.

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Originally Posted by this8384

I'm also curious as to how it's "your belief" that she denied you visitation. It's not religion; there's no room for belief. Either she denied you or she didn't.

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Because my ex denies it. On the first occassioin, I believe she was home but refused to answer the door. I saw her car. I knocked for a long time. After that, I called th police. When the police came she finally came out. It was 45 min before I got my child. The police didn't take a report. My ex didn't even stick around to talk to the police. She just gave me the child and left.

The next occasion was a dinner time visit for 2 hours. She didn't show. She claims I told her wasn't coming. I told her I was going to be out of town, but not on that date.

The third occasion was also a 2 hr visit. She claims it was her day because it was her holiday.

I believe she intentionally denied me visitation.

Welcome to Divorce 101. Your wife is the bitter ex. My husband went through this with his ex-wife more times than he has fingers and toes. You're not the first and you're not going to be the last.

And it's still not a "belief." Either she did deny you visitation or she did not deny you visitation. There's no gray area; it's black-and-white.

I filed because I believed she denied me visitation. The lawyer says the first incident doesn't count because I did get visitation although it was late. She also said I misinterpreted the court order because it was my ex's visit due to the holiday. For the record the ex is not my wife. We were never married.

Judy, what do you mean by stretching the truth. In this case she did deny me visitation

I am in this alone and the only help I have is my girlfriend. My ex has a lawyer so I need all the help I can get. My ex won't communicate with me on this and I tried getting mygirlfriend to talk to her but she won't budge. What do I do. I can't afford to pay lawyer fees

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Originally Posted by msir

I filed because I believed she denied me visitation. The lawyer says the first incident doesnt count because I did get visitation although it was late. She also said I misinterpreted the court order because it was my ex's visit due to the holiday. for the record the ex is not my wife. We were never married.

Judy, what do you mean by stretching the truth. In this case she did deny me visitation

I am in this alone and the only help i have is my girlfriend. My ex has a lawyer so I need all the help I can get. My ex wont communicate with me on this and I tried getting mygirlfriend to talk to her but she wont budge. what do I do. I can't afford to pay lawyer fees

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If you don't have an Attorney I have no idea who told you that the first incident "doesn't count." Her Lawyer told you that? And you believed him/her?

Stretching the truth means one minute you "believe" she denied you visitation; the next minute she "did" deny you visitation.

I am not unsympathetic to your plight. I do see some 165 postings on this same scenario. You need an Attorney. I don't know what you are hoping someone here will tell you but apparently it hasn't been said so far.

What is it you are looking to find out?

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Originally Posted by this8384

And it's still not a "belief." Either she did deny you visitation or she did not deny you visitation. There's no gray area; it's black-and-white.

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To expand on this you need to fully understand the visitation provisions in your divorce agreement. For example, if the provision states that you get the child on alternative weekends and Wednesday nights, and she does not hand over the child then, then she is clearly violating the order. But if the order says you get 2 hour visits 3 days a week, then you are going to have show she was clearly aware that you were coming for your visit and she still didn't hand the child over. Based on what you have told us so far, that's not going to be easy. And 3 times over a period of months is not going to impress a court. Why didn't you insist on the police making a report, by the way? That would certainly help your case.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

If you don't have an Attorney I have no idea who told you that the first incident "doesn't count." Her Lawyer told you that? And you believed him/her?

Stretching the truth means one minute you "believe" she denied you visitation; the next minute she "did" deny you visitation.

I am not unsympathetic to your plight. I do see some 165 postings on this same scenario. You need an Attorney. I don't know what you are hoping someone here will tell you but apparently it hasn't been said so far.

What is it you are looking to find out?

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Ok, well this was on a day I was to pick up for a weekend visit. I had my girlfriend. I knocked and knocked. It was for about 20 min. I decided to call the police. When I came back, my ex was outside with the child. My ex said she came out earlier and saw me in the car and waived, but I drove off. I don't recall seeing her. My girlfriend did say she saw me but apparently I didn't hear her. When I showed up with the police, she just gave me the child and left and didn't stick around to dicsuss the matter. In that case. I believed she denied me visitation. Her lawyer claims since I got that visit, I was not denied visitation.

In the second. I told her I would not be able to visit because I had to be out of town for 3 weeks. She assumed this was one of the days and did not show up. In that incident, lawyer is saying it was miscommunication and that they would offer makeup time, but I want her found in contempt.

The third. I had a visit on a day she says was her holiday and that her holiday time comes before the standar time if they occur on the same day, meaning, I wouldn't get visitaiton because holiday time comes first. In my opinion, I was supposed to get that visit regardless of her holiday time. In this situation, the lawyer said my ex holiday time bumps my regular time.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

To expand on this you need to fully understand the visitation provisions in your divorce agreement. For example, if the provision states that you get the child on alternative weekends and Wednesday nights, and she does not hand over the child then, then she is clearly violating the order. But if the order says you get 2 hour visits 3 days a week, then you are going to have show she was clearly aware that you were coming for your visit and she still didn't hand the child over. Based on what you have told us so far, that's not going to be easy. And 3 times over a period of months is not going to impress a court. Why didn't you insist on the police making a report, btw? That would certainly help your case.

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These three incidents occurred between May and December 2008. The first one occurred under a temp order with only EOW. I did file contempt for that, but it went no where. My ex claimed she didn't hear me knocking on the door so that's why she was late. I also brought it up in court at our custody trial, and the judge gave it no attention either. The second one occurred after custody trial in sept. The order had not yet been signed because I filed an exception to revise the schedule. I was having trouble meeting the Wednesday 2 hour visit. As far as the third, the lawyer is proposing to revise the order only to make the visitation schedule more clear so there is no confusion. While I agree there may have been confusion with the holiday occurring on my visitation time, I am certain ex is guilty of the other two incidents.

Can't she be found in contempt even if I got visitation on that day? How can I argue those in trial. Also, will I get to question the ex or can she choose not to testify since she has a lawyer?

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Originally Posted by msir

Can't she be found in contempt even if I got visitation on that day? How can I argue those in trial. Also, will I get to question the ex or can she choose not to testify since she has a lawyer?

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Ok, these three incidents occurred during a 6 month period. How many successful visitations did you have during that time? If these 3 incidents accounted for less than 10-20% of your visits, the judge is not likely to be happy with you. Frankly, given your explanation in your last two posts, if I were the judge I would say to the both of you to grow up and stop bothering the court with such trivialities. Work it out between yourselves.

As we have said before, if you go pro se against an attorney, you start with two strikes against you. Family court, while more informal, still has some rules. There is generally less of lawyers questioning witnesses as there is of the judge questioning witnessing. And, if you think you are going to harass your ex with a cross examination, forget it. Her lawyer and the judge won't permit it.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Ok, these three incidents occurred during a 6 month period. How many successful visitations did you have during that time? If these 3 incidents accounted for less than 10-20% of your visits, the judge is not likely to be happy with you. Frankly, given your explanation in your last two posts, if I were the judge I would say to the both of you to grow up and stop bothering the court with such trivialities. Work it out between yourselves.

As we have said before, if you go pro se against an attorney, you start with two strikes against you. Family court, while more informal, still has some rules. There is generally less of lawyers questioning witnesses as there is of the judge questioning witnessing. And, if you think you are going to harass your ex with a cross examination, forget it. Her lawyer and the judge won't permit it.

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I really appreciate your input here.

Other than a few harsh exchange of words, there have never been any incidents with visiting. She is usually on time, and the only other missed visits were the ones I didn't show up for.

But can she choose not to speak at all? I just have some simple questions

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Originally Posted by msir

Ok, well this was on a day I was to pick up for a weekend visit. I had my gf. I knocked and knocked. It was for about 20 min. I decided to call the police. when I came back, my ex was outside with the child. My ex said she came out earlier and saw me in the car and waived, but I drove off. I dont recall seeing her. My gf did say she saw me but apparently I didnt hear her. When I showed up with the police, she just gave me the child and left and didnt stick around to dicsuss the matter. In that case. I believed she denied me visitation. her lawyer claims since I got that visit, I was not denied visitation.

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Wow, a whole 20 minutes? Try waiting and hour or 2, calling the police, being told they can't help you and then having your ex show up whenever she feels like it - that's a pain in the neck. Your 20 minute wait isn't breaking my heart. Why didn't you try calling her if she didn't answer the door?

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Originally Posted by msir

In the second. I told her I would not be able to visit because I had to be otu of town for 3 weeks. She assumed this was one of the days and did not show up. In that incident, lawyer is saying it was miscommunication and that they would offer makeup time, but I want her found in contempt.

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And the truth comes out. You're not worried about lost time with your kid(s); you want your ex to be punished.

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Originally Posted by msir

The third. I had a visit on a day she says was her holiday and that her holiday time comes before the standar time if they occur on the same day, meaning, I wouldnt get visitaiton becuase holiday time comes first. In my opinion, i was supposed to get that visit regardless of her holiday time. In this situation, the lawyer said my ex holiday time bumps my regular time.

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Sorry, unless your custodial agreement stated otherwise, holiday time takes precedence over scheduled visitation. Just because it's "your opinion" that you should have had visitation at that time doesn't mean you should have gotten it.

Quite frankly, I'm beginning to see how you got yourself into such a mess in the first place. You seem to think you get to make the rules in the courthouse; you don't. You want visitation that hasn't been granted, you want your ex found in contempt when she's clearly not, you don't want to pay attorney's fees that she incurred because of your actions... it's another case of "poor me, it's all their fault." Sorry, I'm not buying a single word of it.

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Originally Posted by msir

But can she choose not to speak at all? I just have some simple questions

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This is not a criminal trial so I don't think 5th amendment rights apply. You can present the judge with your questions and the judge will ask for answers or not depending on what the judge feels is relevant.

[QUOTE=this8384;1669353]Wow, a whole 20 minutes? Try waiting and hour or 2, calling the police, being told they can't help you and then having your ex show up whenever she feels like it - that's a pain in the neck. Your 20 minute wait isn't breaking my heart. Why didn't you try calling her if she didn't answer the door?

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And the truth comes out. You're not worried about lost time with your kid(s); you want your ex to be punished.

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I just want her to follow the order

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Sorry, unless your custodial agreement stated otherwise, holiday time takes precedence over scheduled visitation. Just because it's "your opinion" that you should have had visitation at that time doesn't mean you should have gotten it.

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Quite frankly, I'm beginning to see how you got yourself into such a mess in the first place. You seem to think you get to make the rules in the courthouse; you don't. You want visitation that hasn't been granted, you want your ex found in contempt when she's clearly not, you don't want to pay attorney's fees that she incurred because of your actions... it's another case of "poor me, it's all their fault." Sorry, I'm not buying a single word of it.

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Well when It takes me 45 min each way, 20 min is a lot, not to mention is longer in traffic. There is nothing in the order about holiday time taking precedence over the scheduled visitation. They should have clarified that and may I wouldn't have included it.

Well what about the 2nd incident. I did call her. She didn't answer. Although the order was not signed, I still should have got my visitation. If they are going to make me pay child support for the months Ithere was no signed order, then I should get to have a wed visit although the order wasn't signed.


I do believe I am the better parent and that I should be the custodial parent

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Originally Posted by msir

I do believe I am the better parent and that I should be the custodial parent

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Frankly, I have seen no evidence of that. But then its impossible for us to know the whole story.

It seems to me that 3 visitation problems in 6 months is not a lot nor is it going to impress a judge. I think it just means that you need to coordinate better. Give a call the day before to confirm what time you will be there. Call when you are on your way with an estimated ETA. Set up a shared calendar on someplace like Yahoo or GMail where you can list visit dates and other activities so you have a written record that any of you can consult.

[QUOTE=msir;1669528 I do believe I am the better parent and that I should be the custodial parent[/QUOTE]


I do believe you are fixated on this - it does not reflect well on you.

I am, quite frankly, on overload with you and your questions.

And I agree with "This" - you are only seeking revenge. It's apparent to those of us on AMHD - it will be apparent to the Judge.

If you don't have money to retain an Attorney to fight for your kids you don't have money to support them if/when you have custody.

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Originally Posted by msir

I just want her to follow the order

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And she has been. As Scott pointed out, only 3 incidents in a 6 month period means nothing. You're trying to play a martyr and you're not, it's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by msir

Well when It takes me 45 min each way, 20 min is a lot, not to mention is longer in traffic. there is nothing in the order about holiday time taking precedence over the scheduled visitation. They should have clarified that and may I wouldnt have included it.

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Try driving an hour and half one way, like I do every other weekend. Your sob story is wasted here. And $20 says you didn't read through the order completely; I have yet to see a custodial order NOT address holidays.

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Originally Posted by msir

Well what about the 2nd incident. I did call her. She didnt answer. Although the order was not signed, I still should have got my visitation. If they are going to make me pay child support for the months Ithere was no signed order, then i should get to have a wed visit although the order wasnt signed.

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You clearly don't understand child support. Just because there "was no signed order" doesn't mean you don't have to pay support. Child support isn't to buy you visitation; it's to support the child.

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Originally Posted by msir

I do believe I am the better parent and that I should be the custodial parent

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Then get a good attorney and file for placement change.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Frankly, I have seen no evidence of that. But then its impossible for us to know the whole story.

It seems to me that 3 visitation problems in 6 months is not a lot nor is it going to impress a judge. I think it just means that you need to coordinate better. Give a call the day before to confirm what time you will be there. Call when you are on your way with an estimated ETA. Set up a shared calendar on someplace like Yahoo or GMail where you can list visit dates and other activities so you have a written record that any of you can consult.

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She will not communicate with me via email. She says its too much back and forth in one day and that also she hates that my girlfriend writes the email. I don't know how she knows, but apparently she does. I don't like calling her because she is rude on the phone.

I did tell you the whole story. We were together for two years. During our breakup, she got pregnant. I didn't believe thechild was mine but a DNA confirmed. I moved on and she didn't, she is bitter. She tried to bash me for not being in my other child's life. I eventually just gave up on trying to get full custody. We got a temp order in early Jan 2008 and a custody order in sept 2008. That order wasn't signed till late October, but we got it modified because I filed and exception. That led to me getting his with an additional 3k in back child support. I pay over 700 in CS. I am having financial hardship and I am trying to get it lowered. That led to lawyer filing a discovery for finanical info. We go to court next week. That's where we are now. What else would you like to know

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Originally Posted by msir

She will not communicate with me via email. She says its too much back and forth in one day and that also she hates that my girlfriend writes the email. I dont know how she knows, but apparently she does. I dont like calling her because she is rude on the phone.

I did tell you the whole story. We were together for two years. during our breakup, she got pregnant. I didnt believe thechild was mine but a DNA confirmed. I moved on and she didnt, she is bitter. She tried to bash me for not being in my other childs life. I eventually just gave up on trying to get full custody. We got a temp order in early Jan 2008 and a custody order in sept 2008. that order wasnt signed till late october, but we got it modified because I filed and exception. That led to me getting his with an additional 3k in back child support. I pay over 700 in CS. I am having financial hardship and I am trying to get it lowered. that led to lawyer filing a discovery for finanical info. We go to court next week. thats where we are now. What else would you like to know

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I'd love to know why you're making such a fuss over one child when you have no relationship with the other.

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Originally Posted by msir

She will not communicate with me via email. She says its too much back and forth in one day and that also she hates that my girlfriend writes the email. I dont know how she knows, but apparently she does. I dont like calling her because she is rude on the phone.

I did tell you the whole story. We were together for two years. during our breakup, she got pregnant. I didnt believe thechild was mine but a DNA confirmed. I moved on and she didnt, she is bitter. She tried to bash me for not being in my other childs life. I eventually just gave up on trying to get full custody. We got a temp order in early Jan 2008 and a custody order in sept 2008. that order wasnt signed till late october, but we got it modified because I filed and exception. That led to me getting his with an additional 3k in back child support. I pay over 700 in CS. I am having financial hardship and I am trying to get it lowered. that led to lawyer filing a discovery for finanical info. We go to court next week. thats where we are now. What else would you like to know

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This only gets better and better. Aside from what everyone else has said: you broke up, she got pregnant DURING the breakup, it's your child. That's very difficult to do. You either are having sex or you are not.

SHE'S BITTER?

No, I have no questions. If I did, though, I'm sure you would have answers.

I take that back - I do have a question. Why aren't you in your other child's life?

Judy, you copycat ;)

Also, I'd like to know how your ex "tried" to bash you for not being in your other child's life... doesn't seem like a very hard thing to do. Does this fall into the same category as "believing" you were denied visitation?

I have about 20 comments I could make right now, but I'm going to refrain because I like not being banned :)

My other child's mother would not let me see the child, but filed for state assistance and now I'm over 30k in back support. I tried to fight that but gave up. My ex didn't bash me. She told me she found out "the truth" and called me a deadbeat. I am not sure what she measn about the truth, but I did try to see my child. In any case, it has no weight on what's going on with my younger child. She tried to bring it up at trial and that's how she found out about the back child support. She said to the judge I lied to her the entire time about my other child but I didn't know what she was talking about. I am still working on issues with the other child but she's in another state and its expensive to do.

No, trying to see your child would mean you went to court and fought for visitation. You apparently didn't do that. If you had gotten a visitation order and the mother ignored it, it was your job to file for contempt. It's no one's fault but your own.

Your whole story is very tiring. Everyone else is wrong, you're always the victim... I feel bad for your kids.

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Originally Posted by msir

My other childs mother would not let me see the child, but filed for state assistance and now I'm over 30k in back support. I tried to fight that but gave up. My ex didnt bash me. She told me she found out "the truth" and called me a deadbeat. I am not sure what she measn about the truth, but I did try to see my child. In any case, it has no weight on whats going on with my younger child. She tried to bring it up at trial and thats how she found out about teh back child support. She said to the judge i lied to her the entire time about my other child but I didnt know what she was talking about. I am still working on issues with the other child but shes in another state and its expensive to do.

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Maybe this doesn't matter to you but "abandonment" of child #1 is going to matter to the Court.

Gee, the mother of the child you never supported called you a deadbeat? Go figure.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Maybe this doesn't matter to you but "abandonment" of child #1 is going to matter to the Court.

Gee, the mother of the child you never supported called you a deadbeat? Go figure.

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No, she "tried" to call him a deadbeat... perhaps she has stutter? :D

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Maybe this doesn't matter to you but "abandonment" of child #1 is going to matter to the Court.

Gee, the mother of the child you never supported called you a deadbeat? Go figure.

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Just to clear things up, No, the mother of child #2 called me a deadbeat when she found out about the back CS for child #1. I told her I was paying. I stopped when she changed jurisdiction and moved to another state and filed for state assistance because the home state said they no longer had jurisdiction. So I had no where to pay. Then I get the notice in the mail. Anyhow, this was all heard in the first trial. I don't think it will matter.

Sooo... there was a custodial agreement in place for the first child, you were paying support, she moved without telling you and you did nothing? You don't think it will matter that you have no contact with your first child, but think you're "the better parent" to the second child? What planet are you on??

Again, you seem to think you get to make the rules in the courthouse. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Your ideas about life and children are very crooked and I'm sorry that these women have to go through this with you.

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Originally Posted by this8384

No, she "tried" to call him a deadbeat....perhaps she has stutter? :D

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Maybe that's her belief - like in, "I believe she is withholding the child."

Well, I believe that what I'm trying to say is that the OP doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting his kid...

I think.

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Originally Posted by this8384

Well, I believe that what I'm trying to say is that the OP doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting his kid....

I think.

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And I believe that this thread will go on and on and on and eventually only you and I will be left standing, "talking" to each other.

I believe I'll have another glass of wine and go to bed.

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Originally Posted by this8384

Well, I believe that what I'm trying to say is that the OP doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting his kid....

I think.

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Well, I was told that I can eventually get 50/50 time and the mother would have to pay me child support because she makes more than me

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Originally Posted by msir

Well, I was told that I can eventually get 50/50 time and the mother would have to pay me child support because she makes more than me

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And who told you this? Is it the infamous "lawyer" that you have posted about before?

Do you have a steady job? How long have you lived at your current residence? Do you have a criminal record? I'm only asking because the court takes these things into consideration.

And once again, your true colors are showing. You almost had a good thing going until you went and posted, "..the mother would have to pay me child support." Absolutely devastating for that poor child.

Support is paid to the PRIMARY custodial parent. If there is not primary (like in a 50/50) then neither pays support.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Support is paid to the PRIMARY custodial parent. If there is not primary (like in a 50/50) then neither pays support.

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You never know, Scott. Apparently it's his "belief" that he'd get support, just like his "belief" he was denied visitation, his "belief" that he's the better parent... I could go on, but I won't.

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Originally Posted by this8384

And who told you this? Is it the infamous "lawyer" that you have posted about before?

Do you have a steady job? How long have you lived at your current residence? Do you have a criminal record? I'm only asking because the court takes these things into consideration.

And once again, your true colors are showing. You almost had a good thing going until you went and posted, "..the mother would have to pay me child support." Absolutely devastating for that poor child.

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I have no criminal record I am good guy, former military, divorced once. I excercisse my visitation to the fullest, except when I am late and the mother refuses to wait. That leads me t another question. I have been late several times due to congestion. I tried to ask the judge to let us meet half way, but he ordered the pickup spot to be near the mothers hous. Since we are going back to caourt also to address mothers motion for modification of visitation, can I ask she meet me half way?

Also, mom and I got into it and she said I didn't fully comply with the compel motin cause I didn't give my disability income, and I didn't give other information, such as my account of what happened on the dates in question. I also didn't give bank statements, work history, a lot of irrelevant stuff. I only gave them some information under production of documents. I didn't answer any of the interrogetories, although some of the answers, such as my salary, is shown on the paystub. Can a judge hold that against me and still make me pay for ex fees.

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Originally Posted by this8384

You never know, Scott. Apparently it's his "belief" that he'd get support, just like his "belief" he was denied visitation, his "belief" that he's the better parent....I could go on, but I won't.

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My states CS is based on income share. Mom makes a about 25 k more than me. In a shared custody situation, where I have over 130 nights a year, she would have to pay me child support, even if she is deemed the primary "residential parent"