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I have found that in times of tragedy and/or shock people have no memory of what they said, who they talked to, how the conversation went. Many times a person will insist the Police are lying, they never said this or that - and then the witnesses have total recall and it did happen.
Not saying this is the case but until the hearing no one knows what anyone said or did 100%.
Hi JudyKT, That is so true. I'm just going on what I remember and I know I was extremely upset. I called 2 police departments this morning to find out if a written report was made that night. The first one told me I could find that information out from the coroner's office. So I called the Township Police, my son's house was right on the line for Sylvania Township. Toledo takes one side of the street and the Township takes the other side. They told me they were there that night and yes, they made a police report and I can come pick up a copy at no charge. So, that's a beginning.
That's good. If you can, from this point forward make brief notes of any contacts you make with date and time. Doesn't need to be extensive just name, subject, date and time. It helps piece everything together and prevents redundancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
Hello again, Dr:Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
It's also good stuff in court. Are you sure you're not a lawyer?
excon
Yes, I would keep notes of who, when, how. It may still boil down to your word against their word but it's - as DrBill verified - a start.
On a personal note - I have almost no recollection of the night my husband died. I drove home from the hospital and remember absolutely nothing of the trip. I think your mind shuts down as a defense mechanism. I still can't believe they allowed me to leave, alone, and drive home - some 45 minutes!
I wouldn't be surprised if everyone's memory is somewhat clouded - but you're working your way through that.
Its evident that procedures are quite different in the US then in Canada. If a person dies at home, say of a massive heart attack there is no autopsy done, but if a person dies on the street, in a store, or somewhere other then his residence, an autopsy is done. I have first hand seat in these situations, although I can't pronounce and have to assign a nurse, some of my clients have died over the years while I am in attendance; as they are assigned palliative to me.
I am not belitting your situation, this, just pointing this out. You obviously have a coroner who needs a heads up, or a wack upside the head. Something is definitely wrong in your situation.
I am so sorry for your situation, my heart goes out to you my dear.
Tick
I got the police report, once again they were very nice to me. The police report indicates that his girlfriend told the police that my son had a seizure disorder and brain tumor, and provided the name and phone number of his nuerologist. The police report also states that the coroner's investigator took possession his body for an autopsy and that his medicine bottles were also handed over to the transportation unit.
I'd like to talk to his doctor too, but can the doctor talk to me, would that violate HIPAA law?
Hello again, this:Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
No. HIPAA applies to live persons.
excon
I think it would probably be helpful from several standpoints to talk with his doctor. Please be careful not to mention your dissatisfaction with the coroner.Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
Does the police report mention details of the physical environment, location, bathroom, etc
This is an additive question... I read through part of HIPAA and it looks like it only applies to the electronic transfer of records. Are you up on that? I know confidentiality applies in the doctor/pt relationship regardless, so is HIPAA simply an electronic record extension?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
No, HIPAA does not only apply to electronic record extensions. I'll give you an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
Recently my father-in-law was in the hospital I work for. I was off duty at the time, so I called the hospital and was talking to a friend of mine who worked on his unit. I then asked about his condition and she reminded me that it was against HIPAA to discuss his condition as I was not his treating nurse.
So, HIPAA is verbal as well as electronic.
Right you are. On review, "any form or media, whether electronic, paper, or oral" I must have been reading my fax machine instructions.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_9
That must pose a few problems for residents and nurses in relation to friends and relatives?
You always make me laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
Yes, it can pose problems. I live in a VERY small community, and when someone has a baby it's big news. Well, I deliver babies, it gets tough when people ask me about my patients and their babies. They just don't understand that I'm not allowed to talk about it.
Good thinking! What I am mainly interested in finding out is, what information was shared with the coroner's office, and WHEN was it shared, And what was the latest status of my son's health. He saw the doctor the day before he died. Can you think of anything else I should ask the doctor?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
Your interest is in determining what happened to your son. The neurologist is the only person in the world that can even come close providing insight, at this point. Satisfy that need first.Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
I wouldn't mention autopsy at all. You can mention their finding "natural causes" or the "Sudden Unexpected Death" routine but explain that that doesn't answer your questions. Maybe he'll bring up autopsy and it's even possible that the neurologist could have told them there was no need for an autopsy, believing he was helping. But it could also be that they didn't contact him until days later.
As I recall you have a background in medicine so you'll probably benefit from what information he provides. My main thought is benefit to you at this point. The good Dr. will be of little use in dealing with the coroner except for the information you obtain at this meeting. There is extreme reluctance to testify (or provide adverse information) against other doctors and they are useless as forced "subpoenaed" witnesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBill100
I remember learning about the code of silence as a student nurse.
I had gone to a handful of appointments with my son and I was pretty tough with the doctor when my son was newly diagnosed. I impressed upon him how important it was to me that my son's doctor seriously cared for him and that he knew what he was doing.
First off Im sorry for your loss. Id also like to state that in many places there are rules regarding autopsy. Mainly it has to do with the last doctors visit and a timeline. So it is possible that the coroner did skip something very important. For that you would have to know the rules of the local area. Being under a doctors care may release the autopsy from being done. But either way you are owed an explination.
@-->-----
I talked to my son's nuerologist today. He was shocked and saddened by my son's death. He told me that my son's seizure disorder was stable and he had not had another seizure since he was hospitalized in Oct. 09. I asked him if he spoke to the coroner and he said yes, he did and he told the coroner that it was his opinion that Nathan needed a full autopsy because his death was not expected and his health issue was stable. I'm so upset about this. His doctor was so nice to me. He was upset that a conclusion as to the cause of death was made without an autopsy.
That is indeed distressing news from the standpoint of understanding the circumstances surrounding your sons death. It also has direct implications in relation to the coroner's decision as they acted contrary to the advice of the attending physician whom had examined your son within one day of death. Procedurally, that is very unusual.
I don't want to talk to my lawyer until after I have my appointment with the coroner, because I don't want to prevent the coroner from saying anything to me. I did not have to bring up the autopsy with my son's doctor, he asked me what the autopsy showed. When I told him there was no autopsy, and I read what the piece of paper I have says, he was shocked. He was also very surprised that it took almost 2 months to get a none autopsy report. He repeated to me more than once that he told the coroner that it was his opinion that my son needed a full autopsy. He told me it is not unheard of that people with seizures have sudden unexplained death, but that usually is the case when seizures are not under control.
He's right, of course, that seizures can cause sudden death. That fails to tie together the physical environment (bathtub) and position of body, etc. But the preeminent problem is that you should not be left with guesswork and searching out the most likely assumption. The purpose of PMEs is to resolve these issues scientifically and conclusively.
I agree that it would be premature to contact an attorney and I don't feel you're yet prepared for a meeting with the coroner. But you will be. By all means do not initiate any contact with the coroner while you are angry and distraught.
Hello again, t:Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
That IS a concern. However, I don't think visiting a lawyer necessarily insures that outcome. He might very well agree that nothing should be said until after your meeting. Or, he might have a different strategy. If not, he'll certainly advise you HOW to conduct your interview with the coroner, and what pertinent questions to ask. I'd be wondering whether I could or SHOULD tape the session. It's certainly worth exploring.
I'm just saying, that if you're going to see a lawyer in any case, it would be my view, that sooner is better. Forewarned is forearmed.
excon
Thanks DrBill, I won't. At first I was upset that they put me off till the end of next month, but now I feel I need that time to compose myself and get my emotions under control so that I don't go in with guns a' blazing.
Good point, however I know for sure I can only control myself. My sister has already suggested a tape recorder for the meeting, think I'll pick one up... preferably one that can be hidden.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Thus far the culpable party is a governmental entity operating under the protection of sovereign immunity so long as they acted with proper discretion. However, there is another line of accountability available as the doctors are individually accountable to state licensure boards and professional membership groups. Complaints against licensed physicians will fall under administrative law procedures and most attorneys are reluctant to venture into that territory or even know how to handle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
It may be that there is no productive cause of action for civil damages but that the doctors can be held accountable for their professional conduct through an administrative action(s). That would require an abuse of discretion. We don't know that yet.
Your advice is sound. I just don't think there's enough to present to an attorney at this point. It is just my thought that aggregating additional facts will direct her to the proper attorney and allow a more informed decision. Few that I know of will take thin cases on a contingency and fewer yet will enter an admin case except on hourly basis. But as a legal procedural matter you are probably right.
Im going to but in again. I did a little research and found out that where your son was living there is a laundry list of people that can proclaim caus of death besides the coroner. So until you get what you think is the big picture try to hold back and just listen. I know it's a tough time for you and you want answers. But the EMT in attendance could have came up with caus of death and there would have been no autopsy. Understand its prevailing law of that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
Hello again, t:Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
As long as you know that taping WITHOUT permission is LEGAL in your state. It COULD be a felony. You don't want to complicate things... That's ONE of the reasons I suggested you get legal advice.
excon
I learn something everyday. Please share with us the other persons that are empowered and qualified to determine cause of death, along with enabling statute if known. I've never heard of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Oh geez, yes I sure don't want to be the one committing a crime here! I think it is legal as long as one person knows the conversation is being taped. I'll have to find out for sure. If both people have to be aware, I'll simply put the tape recorder on the table and tell the coroner I'm taping so that I don't have to keep going back to her with questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
There was no EMT, it was 2 police officers and a woman acting as coroner investigator. The police told me and it is printed in the police report that the coroner investigator took possession of the body for autopsy.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Ref:Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-gui...-recording-law
Thank you! I found also that all the information the coroner has is considered public information, so I don't think there should be a problem recording my meeting. I will ask my lawyer though just to be safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by califdadof3
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisit
This is a Federal crime in some States - I don't know where you are but you should look into this.
First, it's a dangerous practice. Second, it rises to a felony.
Do you know why I don't get on the medical boards and argue? Because I don't know squat about medicine.
Know why I post on the legal boards? Because that's my education, experience, knowledge.
I realize you think that no one can get a Judgment against you and also that as long as one person knows the conversation is being taped you are all right -
I'd check with an Attorney on both counts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Will do Judy, and thank you very much for your advice. I'm pretty sure, but a lawyer I am not! If a lawyer in my district tells me it is illegal, I will put a tape recorder on the table and tell the coroner I am taping our meeting so that I don't have to go back and ask her the same questions again.
I noticed that some of the names I included in a previous post have now been reduced to initials. I don't object, in fact it's a pretty good idea - but wonder how and why it occurred.
There just might be another reason an autopsy was not done - money. Most counties these days in Ohio (I live in Ohio as well) are dead broke and are laying off police officers left and right, are shuttering libraries and restricting their hours, etc. This woman just may have decided that it was an obvious natural death due to the tumor and decided not to have the autopsy performed. You had him cremated. I hate to say this but you should not have done that until you were satisfied about his death and the cause of it. Had he been buried he could have been exhumed and the mystery of his death solved. As long as an external examination was performed that ruled out any foul play I'm thinking the coroner just took the "cheap" way out for the county and did not have the autopsy performed.
Also, as JKT said you don't really have any monetary damages to sue the coroner for or the county either other than not properly performing her legal duty (in your mind) to your son, the county will not be able to be sued. Taking this kind of case on in Court and winning will be almost impossible as the evidence (your son's body) has been irretrievably destroyed and unable to be examined by an autopsy.
I'm thinking you need to let this matter go. He was not the victim of foul play but died a natural death in the bathroom in the tub. A tumor on the pituatary gland can cause a person's eyesight and balance to be affected. A co-worker friend of mine had a tumor on the pituatary gland and his eyesight was the first to go. He had to have an immediate operation as his tumor was life threatening. You had your son for many years living with this volitale condition and could have lost him at any time such as when he was in the coma for 3 days. Please stop feeling guilty about this as you are not to blame. If anyone is to blame - blame the county for running out of money.
He did not have this condition for many years! He was diagnosed after his baby was born. His doctor told me today that my son was stable. He saw my son the day before he died and everything looked good, he was stable AND when the coroner called him, he told her that it was his opinion that neither the tumor nor seizure disorder was the cause of death and he thought a full autopsy should be done. I was lead to believe an autopsy was done, that is why I had his body cremated.
My son's baby is 2 years old.
Hang tough. We'll work through this item by item. You need a little time to assimilate this latest info.
Thanks DrBill, I'd like to add that if money was the problem I would have been glad to pay for the autopsy, but I was never called by the coroner and neither was his girlfriend, nor was anyone else in the family.
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