I myself just want to ask if WHY? It is actually about GENDER.
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I myself just want to ask if WHY? It is actually about GENDER.
I am not sure that we are capable of understanding that if we haven't been through what they are feeling. I don't understand why Bruce Jenner did what he did but I know he's been quite clear it's been a life long struggle.
DNA, hormones ? Mental conditioning, A combination of many things.
Some in-depth studies have shown that many people (younger ones are more likely to have thought it out) are on something of a sliding scale of gender. It's not just about sexual preference. For thousands of years we identified gender by sex organs. Yet we now know that many males have more female hormones than their fellow males, and same with females. Hermaphrodites are more common than we think too, because doctors tend to pick one to tell the parents, thinking it's for the best. That's the wrong word most of the time, and here is a starting article on the matter scientifically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45,X/46,XY_mosaicism
Your question is certainly my question too. Anyways! Some say that it is in DNA i.e. a person is born with the gender. Sometimes it is the surrounding that influence the thoughts and also experience and struggle in relationship can also contribute in this. As said by Bruce Jenner, he/she feels that this has been in his/her mind forever and now he/she had the strength to come out as who he/she is.
Gender is a strange thing. At birth, MOST babies are classified as either Male or Female based on a visual inspection of their genitalia. For most people that is enough. They identify as that gender for their entire lives. Some people do not identify with the gender assigned to them at birth. Some will align their body to the gender that they believe they are. It is allowing them to express themselves as they see themselves to be rather then what they've been told that they are. This is where the mystery of the brain and our own consciousness comes into play. Who can say that gender isn't on a scale like sexual orientation.
Now the cynical part of me also knows that there are plenty of people, look at tumblr for example, who are using gender roles as a way to make themselves feel special or different. A lot of people just want to be different and will do what they can to show that they're unique just like everyone else. It has to be taken seriously, but you also have to be sure.
My feelings on this subject is, you are what you is. By what is between your legs. Just because you want to change the game at the expense of others is wrong. Men in the Women's Locker Room and vice versa does more to make people very uncomfortable. So deal with what you have. PC has a way of being a PITA.
That's the problem. When the delivering doctor says, "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" he's looking at only a very small part of a human's sexuality. What's going on inside that human in regard to sexual orientation may be just the opposite that involved hormones during prenatal development. What you see in the flesh is not necessarily what really is. (I won't go into what all goes on during pregnancy with establishing sexual orientation. There are several good medical websites about that.)Quote:
Originally Posted by catonsville
For thousands of years that has been the indicator and it was good enough. Suddenly we get all these off the wall exceptions to the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And there were probably some very unhappy (or confused) humans who had to live inauthentic lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by catonsville
catonsville, bet you didn't open my wikipedia link. It's a bit abstruse, but bottom line, babies ARE born with 2 sets of gonads, and doctors DO like to operate at infancy to make a baby one or the other.
There are people who have sued once they reached 18, feeling cheated out of the sex they 'feel' they really are, and that is usually based on hormone levels, not gonads.
Aside from gonads showing, there are some fascinating documentaries now on young children expressing interest in being the opposite sex, and now that many parents are more accommodating, we hear more about them.
And even if there aren't two sets of gonads, what shows on the outside doesn't always match what's going on hormonally in the inside.
I'm gender queer, I often think I would rather be a woman then a man, but fear causes me to not commit to that. For me, wanting to be a woman is largely sexual... the desire often times goes beyond sex, it's more then just a kink, but it is still strongly rooted in lust. Looking back now, when I was a little boy I liked playing with barbies and watching girls TV shows, so maybe it isn't as much about sex and lust as I initially thought, but I never considered being a girl like how I do now until I discovered how uncontent I was fulfilling the male sexual role. So to sum it up its like a want to be better. To be prettier. Just like how a boy might want to go to the gym to work out and improve his physical appearance, a trans person wants to be the like the gender they most identify with. Does that make sense? I feel like I rambled a bit.
3p0L0v3sU, your story is pretty typical.
I think whether or not you act on your feelings has a lot to do with what culture/country/social group you live in.
I'm going to upset a lot of people and thought long and hard before even posting this. But I feel empathy is earned and shouldn't be handed out freely. It devalues it just like anything that's handed out too often.
I have empathy for people with Cancer, or degenerative diseases...particularly young children with them, and while I may not agree with some things... I won't ostracize those that do... unless they feel a need to get up in peoples faces about it, but I won't have empathy either. Empathy and tolerance don't have to go hand in hand.
There is no right to empathy... or acceptance. There is against persecution and lynching.
When Bruce Jenner first pulled this.. my first thought was.. if it floats his boat, who cares... then he went all Kardashian (which I think the entire bunch are idiots and attention wh ores)... and needs to get in everyone's face, and that's what I can't abide.
We don't have any need for 5 bathrooms... Men, women, men who feel like women, women who feel like men, and the poor individuals that were born actual hermaphrodites.
The restroom you use should be determined by what bits you have between your legs. Because small children use them and don't always have adults supervision.
I have no issues with what people choose to do at home... or behind closed doors... and no... I don't give a pass to a lot of activities some traditional people do in front of others either. If its not appropriate in front of a child or group of children... then get a hotel room.
Fewer people will be offending other people if everyone understood the world didn't revolve around each of them. It doesn't revolve around anyone... it revolves around the sun. It actually used to be that way or at least a lot closer to it.
I'm guessing you've never experienced gender identity confusion, smoothy. :-)
No... but I wouldn't want some 50 year old man adjusting his "junk" under his dress in the women's room with pre-teen girls present. If you get my drift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
He'd be in a stall adjusting himself and wouldn't be in public space. No one would see him (her?).Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
You are married and have a son... you know what guys do in the real world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Then there is another group....pervs that don't have a fear of cross dressing to get into the womens room to do what they do. Which right now they would stand out if they tried. As weird as something might sound....someone out there gets their jollies on it.
Now on the other hand....if there was a group of people that decided it would be fun to beat up on someone in one of these groups....I'd be one of the first people standing up against them doing it. Tolerance can exist in the absence of acceptance or empathy. Its not an all or nothing situation.
Yes, in a perfect world you would be right but the world is anything but perfect Wondergirl. Once you open the door they get that inch and then they go for the mile and in your face until they get it.
A perv wouldn't have a chance in a women's washroom. And I have TWO sons, two brothers, and have worked with many males of all ages during my lifetime. And have been in a lot of women's washrooms.
Right now if you had a guy in a dress in the Womens room... they stand out.. well most of them would anyway, you call the cops and let them cuff and haul them off. But if it became legal for them to do it... how would you prevent it? How would you know who was OK and who wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Now toss in having underage kids into the mix... I see a LOT of things that can go very wrong, very fast.
As far as them in the women's department shopping for clothes in full drag? Who cares....not me. Getting on TV..making a big deal of it.....now then I have an issue
You need to spend more time in a women's washroom. Plus, it would be labeled as to who may use it. Those who don't want to be faced with lustful straight men wearing dresses don't have to use it.
Yep, a "Voyeur's Delight"
He ain't gonna see much. He could see as much sitting on a bench in a mall.Quote:
Originally Posted by catonsville
You are missing the point I'm getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
A certain group is demanding they get to use the OTHER genders restrooms. Don't forget there are straight cross dressing men out there... that really don't have gender issues, then there are those that do...
As you pointed out. Right now its labeled and they can't... as it should be... BUT... if they get their way,, anyone can use any restroom in effect... And very few businesses have the space, and the money to build and maintain 5 separate restrooms several of which would see very little use... and there are very few women that would want a man in the women's restroom or tolerate it... period.
Remember that very important bit about guys being visual... while very few women would get a thrill out of it... there are far more men that would.
Thinking in absolutes will get you in trouble... in a perfect world everything is Black or White... in the real world there is a whole lot of shades of grey in between. Lines have to be drawn someplace. Drawing them to suit a minority against the majority...IS going to cause problems.
I'd have no problem with unisex washrooms and most of my women friends feel the same way. The cubicles give any user privacy.
At my library job in the early '80s, our college-professor crossdresser used the library's women's washroom with no problem.
Right, maybe you have forgotten how far we have come in electronics, cameras etc. Where there is a will, someone will find the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You are a minority in that thinking... most restrooms that can handle multiple people at once aren't built in a manner that would lend them towards being unisex. Though any small one person at a time restroom can easily qualify as Unisex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The newer cubicles go all the way to the floor. I'm guessing crossdressers and those with gender issues want to relieve themselves, not take photos.
Where there's a will, someone can shoot up that business or library.
They might have those in your neck of the woods... but I've never seen even ONE of those around mine... anywhere. The ceiling to floor ones do exist in Europe...you also need a poor sense of smell or a really strong stomach using them too if they are even moderately busy. Neither of which I have. The the rough in distance...toilet to toilet is also greater than those here to accommodate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That type adds another risk of illicit activity the normal modesty partitions would easily reveal. Also significantly more difficult to clean and keep clean.
IF they need to relieve themselves... you have sausages and you have tacos... each has its own rest room... the exception being the sausage tacos... which aren't really common.
What do they do now? Hold it for a week? I doubt it. And they aren't all running out to the alley behind the dumpster.
If it's a free for all... who is to say or argue against... a Man, dressed as a man going into a women's restroom using the I feel more like a woman argument as an excuse against peeping Tom charges? Those shades of grey thing again.
And a guy is more likely to do that than a woman would in a Mens room. Plus I know very few women that would be OK with it. You might be the only one at this point. I can guarantee you my wife and my mother would vigorously oppose it as just two. And just about every other one I know well enough to have an idea how they think.
Like I said... I know how guys think... so I can see a lot of situations where it could go horribly wrong.
I'd worry about weirdo with a gun before I'd worry about a sexual pervert. Heaven help him if he's the latter.
Everybody worries about those... there are more of them around. More in some places than others.
You've never seen a man in a kilt whose a little itchy with all the wool about Wee Johnny have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
As as small of a minority as you think. Having unisex wash rooms is getting more popular in society. Especially accommodating people who are in the gender minority, i.e. trans, gender neutral/flexible, etc. How many of us have used the opposite sexy's bathroom when our own was taken? Especially if it is a single person room?Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy
The problem is, Smoothy, that you're missing the big picture and focusing on the minutia. In most, 99%+ of the case it isn't going to matter, it isn't going to matter and pervs are going to perv regardless of the situation.
To deal with the hijack: Down with Urinals! Everybody sit down! Most codes say you have to have so many holes(make that drains) per so many people in the establishment.
That does nothing for gyms and locker rooms, particularly in schools, where gender confusion and determination is at it's most intense. In part the current tendency to validate whatever weirdness an immature mind can dream up is making the process of that mind maturing much more difficult. Deciding who you are is part of growing up.
Jenner is actually to be credited for taking time to make the decision, although 69 years old with how many kids might be leaving it a bit late.
It's quite apparent that none of you actually KNOW someone who has gender identity issues.
I'm related to someone who actually suffers from it. Yes, she describes it as suffering.
You see, my niece was born a girl 21 years ago. She has never been interested in chick flicks, Barbie dolls, makeup, etc. She identifies with Marvel comics, tuxedos (she wore one to her high school prom), fade hair cuts instead of long hair in pony tails.
It's NOT about what bathroom one uses, but how comfortable or uncomfortable one feels in their own skin. She knows she was born a female, but feels more comfortable dressing as a man because that's where her interests lie. Instead of doing her nails, she prefers to rebuild a transmission. At 2 years old my niece would rather play with a tonga truck than a baby doll. This isn't something learned, but genetic.
She knows she's a female, (back on the bathroom issue), and uses the women's bathroom because she knows that is what's right, BUT she gets dirty looks when she enters because she LOOKS like a man.
It isn't only about what's "between your legs" but what makes you feel comfortable in your own skin.
I read these posts and can fully understand the increasing suicide rates.
I'm raising my kids with the same view as mine: what difference does it make to me what someone identifies with? It doesn't affect us in any way. Not buying the silly "slippery slope of washrooms" argument, it seems puerile to me.
I have no desire to take pictures of naked ladyies. Why does having a penis and dressing in girls cloths make you suspect to that kind of behavior?
Thankfully most people are able to accept it. There are those that can't, as you've seen on this thread, but most people understand what gender identity conflict is, and they accept those people for who they are. The world is changing for the better for everyone, but it takes time. Some of the old dogs really can't learn new tricks. They simply don't get it, and many of them never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3p0L0v3sU
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