I debated whether this would go under parenting but the reality is the problem is my 25 year old son's personality disorder. It is not an official diagnosis but it is obvious. He struggles with everything from relationships, depression, anger, hostility, anxieties, etc. He thinks that all the problems come from someone else. Usually I am the one to take the brunt of off the crap he dishes out. He swears at me, tells me I am a bad mom, etc. He didn't have an easy childhood and I was not a perfect parent. His dad and I are divorced. BUT... he was raised in a normal environment with parents and a step-dad who love him. I had him in counseling at an early age due to his anger. He became an unhappy, angry teen and now he is at his worst. He threw a temper tantrum at a job where he threw his cell phone, he has been fired from other jobs. He swears at me when I try to talk to him. He lives with me because he has been unemployed. But I can't stand being around him. He tells me that I don't need to talk because he already knows what I am going to say! He walks out of conversations with my husband. Last time my husband followed him to his room and my son shoved him around. I ended up calling the police. I told him to leave at that time, but he slept in his car and then came back the next day. He has no where else to go but he hates having to live here because I am such a pain! I have given him thousands of dollars, I watch his daughter for him every other weekend because he is incapable of taking care of her. He has no patience for a 20 month old nor do I trust him with her. Neither does her mom! I helped arrange this plan so that he could see her. (Don't get me wrong... this is a gift! I love that little girl and she loves being here! There is no sacrifice!) My husband tries to be supportive but he doesn't know what to do either. I need someone objective out there to look into this for me. I am a teacher, I am logical, and I am well read but I can't see outside of this! HELP! I am beginning to really NOT like my son.

Has he seen a professional in the past few years? My gut reaction is that he is depressed. Anger and anxiety are symptoms. Blaming you for his troubles is a symptom of dysfunction. He may have learned to blame, while growing up. That doesn't make it okay for him to be disrespectful, whether you put a roof over his head or not.

He is an adult. In spite of everything you have done, he fails. Try something new. Kick him to the curb. As his mother, that might seem wrong, bad and downright evil. But, in spite of all his difficulties, he is an adult. Have you tried retracting all support?

When he is verbally attacking you, do you respond? Don't. When he is polite, respond.

Simoneaugie seems to be on the right track.
My sister is the same way, olmost to a "T". I definitely think phsychiatric counseling, and medications are what this man needs.
Being an adult he needs to start taking resposibility for his own life, and stop blaming others, especially his own mother. (I hate it when my sister does this)
I understand being a mother makes it difficult to enact the "tough love", but I definitely think that it's time to do just that. No more money, make him get his own place, unless he is paying you sufficient rent, not low rent because he's your son, but what you would charge a tenant for room and board. Give him love when he needs or want it, but only in the form of you listening to him, when he's respectful, and hugging him if he needs it.
I understand that it's difficult to get to see doctors when you need to because of the cost, but perhaps with his problems, he might qualify for certain programs to get lower charges, so he can get help.

I totally agree with the 2 posts above.

1) If a person can be "Big enough" to make a baby,they better be big enough to accept responsibilities.They need not be nurtured till they have no feelings for those responsibilities,that is ENABLING.

2) If he wants to rant and rave over a job situation, that is his responsibility,to see it through to its rightful end,even if its being fired again,too bad, he needs to grow up and get another job,he has a child to support.

3) Giving him money only allows him to continue to manipulate you and your husband,he will never leave the comfortable for the fearful future if he doesn't have to.

I get this reasoning from personal experience with my 21/now 22 year old daughter(no kids involved... yet)

Her living with me was, in the beginning,difficult(she moved back with me 3 years ago) When she began to show the reluctant signs for self-responsibility/respectability, like your son is,I began to have difficulties,sleep,eating,willingness to do the right thing, doubts about my true feelings for her, etc.I think you know what I am saying.

After going to the edge,and beyond(most parents have that extra stamina for the seemingly impossible) I asked for outside help,their advice is the same I am giving you here.

Let him go.

It was like ripping my soul out to ask her to leave,knowing the difficult road she needed to go down to grow.

Today(less than a year later) she has her own apartment(struggles to pay the rent, of course)keeps food(sometimes)keeps old friends(for a while) you know ,all those things kids are supposed to do,grow up and be productive members of society,not sponges off their families!

I have found,after the initial "empty nest" effect,she loves me more for asking her to leave,she now has a little more self esteem,she needs to be loved in return, and is willing to accept it from me even though I had to let her go.

As hard as it is in the beginning, it does work out in the end.

I hope this helped you,

KBC

Why are you and your husband and his child's mother all revolving around him?? You three are a big part of his problem, in my opinion.

He is 25 years old. Time for him to stand on his own two feet and not be catered to. He knows you will protect him from the realities of life.

Go to court and petition to have him evicted. That will take 30 days.

Now, you and your husband can find other things in your life much more enjoyable to do. Don't be afraid to enjoy life. :)

Thanks to all of you. The common thread here is that he needs to be on his own. I gave him temporary shelter until he got his act together. That time is coming to an end. Everything seems to be different when you deal with someone who is not mentally balanced. If he had cancer, I would be there for him. But he has a disorder that is not treated properly precisely because of the nature of his disorder! These people think they know what is better than the doctors. He is on and off medication. You can't convince him to go the doctor or get counseling. He is a miserable person. It is sad to watch and I feel helpless. Thanks for responding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icantbreathe

Thanks to all of you. The common thread here is that he needs to be on his own. I gave him temporary shelter until he got his act together. That time is coming to an end. Everything seems to be different when you deal with someone who is not mentally balanced. If he had cancer, I would be there for him. But he has a disorder that is not treated properly precisely because of the nature of his disorder! These people think they know what is better than the doctors. He is on and off medication. You can't convince him to go the doctor or get counseling. He is a miserable person. It is sad to watch and I feel helpless. Thanks for responding.

---

I am so glad you have taken action,not only for yourselves,but to force him into the real world..

This site has been a great help for me while dealing with my daughter,maybe it'll help you too.

Setting Personal Boundaries - protecting self

Mental illness is a disease that cannot be helped. It is too often stereotyped when it is basically a biochemical imbalance. You have indicated that he takes medication but have not named a diagnosis.
He cannot be forced to take medications or seek treatment except under certain conditions. The mental heath guidelines are limited. They can only interevene "when a person is harmful to themself or others". With his medical history, violence qualifies. A judge can order him into treatment. Or else send him to a state hospital, or jail. One of these things might be a wake-up call for him, and it might be what he needs.
You also need a wake-up call. Is he an only child? Were you "indulgent" with him as a child? I just don't have enough info to put all the pieces together.
If he is taking medications he knows he has a problem. He just doesn't care about the consequences of not complying with treatment.
I might know a little more if I knew what kinds of medications he takes. I am familiar with a lot of psychiatric drugs.
People that have a mental illness struggle with the illness and often become isolated as their family and social network gives out on them. He needsa casemanager to start him on the right track. He may even qualify for benefits.
Your part is to set boundaries just like any other person would do with any other adult. You cannot let him rule your home. You can not give him any money, nor indulge in his tantrums. If you do, you are enabling him.
Treat him like you would treat an adult who is renting a room from you. Stop treating him like your baby boy.
Is there a possibility he is doing street drugs? If so, that is when you need to tell him to go.(treatment or the streets) You need to save yours and your husband's sanity.
Give him choices.

Thanks again for your response. This site is awesome. In answer to ShadyLady, no, he does not take street drugs nor is he a drinker. Thank goodness. Sometimes I think it would be easier, though. Hit rock bottom, go to rehab... I don't know. This other thing seems so life long and hopeless sometimes.
Did I indulge him as a child? I think like everyone, I made mistakes but indulgence wasn't one of them. Quite the contrary. He was working at 16 and knew that by work he could have more than I gave him. He rode his bike to work where he washed dishes. He was always a hard worker. I have read a lot about this and I came to the conclusion that he had a "conduct disorder" at a young age, probably genetic. He was in trouble the second week of kindergarten and stayed in trouble. We took him to counseling, tried a variety of drugs over the course of his life, but still he was difficult to manage. I let him know I loved him but the behaviors could not be tolerated. Still, I yelled at him plenty but probably not out of the realm of "normal". I did get a divorce when he was in 4th grade and there was some disfunction there for a while, but really, we have a had a very happy home since I remarried when he was in 8th grade. We raised 4 kids, not easy, but doable. I ALSO have a wonderful daughter who lives at home still. She works and goes to community college. Very normal and happy and was raised the same way as he was. Back to my son...
Today is a good day. I could tell when he called me by his tone that he was going to treat me like respectfully. I made dinner, thank yous were in order, and all is well. Tomorrow may bring another mood. He is in "his" room a lot. He was taking Effexer (sp). But over the course of his life Zoloft, Paxil, you name it. He is better on medication than off but usually he thinks he is smarter than doctors. He has a very arrogant personality. He told me he was 500 times more cognizant than I am and that the only time I should ever talk to him is in the morning after I drink coffee!! I am 51 years old, a teacher, and do quite well intellectually for heaven's sake! But he really tries to make me feel bad.
Feb. 1st is his deadline to move out. He will more than likely have no phone, his car will probably be repossessed, and he doesn't really seem to be trying that hard to get a job. I do worry that suicide is an option for him. What if I trigger that by sending him out? If that happens could I live with myself? What a terrible loss of a person that could offer so much. I think about this always. I am scared about the next 7 weeks. Thanks for all your help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icantbreathe

I do worry that suicide is an option for him. What if I trigger that by sending him out? If that happens could I live with myself? What a terrible loss of a person that could offer so much. I think about this always. I am scared about the next 7 weeks. Thanks for all your help.

---

You still need to stay on your side of the street.

Your responsible to be a parent,not an enabler.

I copied this from wikipedia about enabling:

It is also used in counselling and in the broader context of problematic behavior, to signify dysfunctional approaches that are intended to help but in fact may perpetuate the problem.[1] A common theme of enabling in this latter sense is that third parties take responsibility, blame, or make accommodations for a person's harmful conduct (often with the best of intentions, or from fear or insecurity which inhibits action). The practical effect is that the person themselves does not have to do so, and is shielded from awareness of the harm it may do, and the need or pressure to change.

A bit technical I imagine,but the facts are there.

He has to go out there on his own,this isn't to say he is going to be abandoned,just allowed to live life on lifes terms.

I am bi-polar,I remember the feelings you are describing about his actions.If I didn't leave the nest and try doing what I thought was the right thing(and fail,plenty),learning that I didn't know everything and growing from those failures,where would I be then?(and yes,I have been suicidal many,many times BUT I am still here.)

If he doesn't show signs of growing up after he leaves,take the appropriate action at that point.Worrying about 'what might happen' is a projection of irrational fears.

Life has enough problems,we don't need to fear the unknown.

I hope this helped,

KBC

It is hard to change my behavior!

One more thing... he has a hard time getting a job due to a misdemeanor when he went 4-wheeling in an place where it was illegal. Mouthed off to the cop and found his butt in jail! With a record, many places won't hire him. It can't be expunged for three years apparently. No car (repossessed), phone will soon not be paid, no home, no money. I can't imagine what I would do!
I am now convinced that I have harmed him more by enabling him and have gotten a vacating notice so that if I have to I can have him physically removed on Feb. 1st if he won't leave! This is a huge step for me. I hope I don't give in.
In the reading I have done, these people often resort to a life of crime. That may happen. He has been there before and dabbled in it even when he was young. I think he may have stolen cars too.
Geez, when I write stuff like this, I become even more appalled at my enabling. What have I been thinking?
Thanks for sharing your own personal story. It helps.

Any way to help others NOT to do the things I have done.

You know how easy it is to ask someone else to do something,but to do it yourself, well,that's sometimes very hard.

I have lived what I preach.
(not that I preach all that much... yeah,right.) :p

By personal experience I try to empathize with others,sometimes it works,other times ,well ,less than perfect.

I have been down the enabling road,a few too many times,so I can directly relate to it,identify it in others and try to address it for what it is.Some don't take to the intense scrutiny too well.I can see you have accepted this from me very well.That is very promising towards the resolution of this situation in your life.To be open to change.

Accepting that change is not only positive but necessary,is a triumph all in itself.

You seem to have an open mind and can see that some of your past actions don't need repeated,Good step!

Now accepting that this bird needs to leave the nest and will take care of himself,if he wants to grow,will allow you to sleep at night.You can't keep him under your wing forever.

YES,I am very tired,as this post probably shows.Maybe some others will chime in and give you some advice as well.

I will return tomorrow(as I am off work for a few months,Knee surgery)

KBC

Well, the last post did make sense... lol

I hope you got something out of it!

And to continue the thoughts(I am more awake tonight... :) )

Beating yourself up for past 'enabling' isn't going to help you.
Please be kind to yourself,you(anyone) can't be supermom and totally indestructible ALL the time.

Now isn't the time for self doubt,that would be repeating the past,NOW is the time to move forward.You have made great progress towards your own goals,don't doubt yourself and make excuses why you 'can't do'.

Effexor and Zoloft are anti-depressants and I'm wondering why they only put him on this type of medication. There are obviously other problems.
From what you've indicated it sounds like he is CAPABLE of getting himself together. He needs more help than you can give, and it's not fair for you to shoulder all the responsibility.
There is a whole network of services through the Mental Health system.
I asked if he was on street drugs because they can not work with someone who is taking drugs, so that would have to be dealt with.
I don't know if they have correctly diagnosed him either, because "behavioral problems" could be any number of things, including ADD or ADHD. Even doctors can be wrong you know, and some of them get arrogant. You have to keep pushing. You son needs a complete physical, including blood work. You need to talk to the mental health doctor about this.
The Mental Health system has a large variety of programs, including job placement. Some cities even have housing. He could even possibly qualify for financial assistance like Social Security Disability.
A misdemeanor should not prevent him from getting a job!
As far as home life, he will greatly resent the fact that his sister is allowed to live there but he isn't. He sees this as "abandonment", not the fact the his behavior is the cause. However you cannot let him manipulate you. You can let him know that there are programs and options available.
If he still doesn't want to seek treatment, then hitting "rock bottom" is his next step. Tell him that!

He has been diagnosed with lots of things! However, I have been reading on this for years and have come to the conclusion that he has "Personality Disorder, Cluster B." Arrogant and narcissistic. I have never known anyone else like him. Lots of underlying stuff like depression, social anxiety, etc. which explains the use of anti-depressants. I think what he really needs is a good dose of behavior therapy. I have read that rarely do these people seek help on their own because they don't think they have a problem. My son thinks he is smarter than the doctors.

Get this... today he told me and my husband that he was tired of listening to us stomp up and down the halls and he wanted to put a temporary carpet down. He said we walk with our heels first! We said no, we like our house the way it is. He called us "s." By the way, we don't use bad language around here. It is all him.
Don't worry you guys! I hear you. He needs to get out! I am just trying to make it legal (waiting the official time according to the law) and gathering resources so that I don't fall apart when he walks out the door begging for me not to do this.
By the way, he doesn't resent his sister. She is much younger and we had a rule about staying home: As long as you are in college and working toward a degree we were flexible. We had 4 kids she is the last. He gets that she can be here.

A lot of people refuse to seek help for the very same reason... they are in denial that they have a problem. It's not just a "mental" condition either! This is how you are going to help him if at all possible. Get him to recognize there is a problem. That things have to change--and you know he is capable of changing.
If this diagnosis is correct you should have been able to have gotten a few hints on how to deal with him. You also should have contacted the Mental Health to assign him a casemanager. They have all kinds of info.
Here's a few, but only some, hints:--
Compliment his abilities-the narcissist loves this. Tell him he is a great person when he wants to be, etc. Try to steer the conversation towards how even better it would be "if"...
Don't argue with him. That's what he wants. In his mind, he will always win the argument anyway, so there's no sense getting yourself upset. Act non-chalant or just ignore his outbursts. Try not to point out how "wrong" he is. It will only start a fight, as he thinks he's superior. To this guy, it's not a matter of wrongness, it's a matter that you are supposed to worship him. He thinks he should be catered to and that he "deserves" it for some reason.
You cannot fix him. He CAN learn to cope and get along. He is capable of having a decent life. It's going to take long-term therapy.

I don't know why we think that when we run out of options when dealing with someone with an obvious mental illness, that it is okay to kick them to the curb, and somehow expect that they will straighten out? This is some cure for irresponsibility, depression, anxiety?

While I agree that there have to be boundaries set, the needs of all those involved in this man's life have to be considered. You can't give up, please don't give up.

Speak to a counsellor, and another on, if you have to, to get the answers you need. Get some guidance on how to set limits and enforce them in a safe and responsible way.

Go and see your own Doctor for advice, and seek out help at your local mental health associations. Find out what they offer to people like your son, and provide him with some basic tools. Names, phone numbers, addresses.

Line up some appointments and set some expectations. Take charge, but don't give up. Tough love does not solve mental health issues.

You need a clear plan with expectations clearly set out for everybody concerned.

I really feel for you, and hope that you will have some success. I'm rooting for you.

I don't know if its reasonable, but maybe a deal, where he has to take some steps to help himself, in trade for room, and board, with rules of course, temporarily. Or is he already over his limit? If he is, best to point him to social services.

I agree with you talaniman, there has to be a plan. It may very well be that he cannot live at home if that's what is best for all concerned. There are so many resources out there if you knock on enough doors.

Thanks for the two above responses. Mental health and tough love? I know I can't continue at our house. Tonight he got mad because he felt like I wasn't helping him with medication. He went on a verbal rampage about how I could "help" if I wanted to. He threw a plastic cup, bashed another hole in the door, and finally threatened suicide. My husband calmed him somewhat while I got on the phone and called someone at our local mental health agency about getting resources. He refused to talk to her. She reassured me that there are resources for medication, etc and to have him call back when he was ready. I also called a suicide prevention hotline. She said to actually ask him if this was serious as I had no choice but to call the police for "welfare check." After a great deal of conversation, he has reassured me that suicide is not an option. We left the conversation calmly and he ate dinner with us. It gets pretty tiresome.. getting sworn at, told how bad of a parent I am, etc. Anything to place blame elsewhere. Right now he is back in the sane world and is applying for a job but he hasn't called the lady about getting social services. I have an appointment with a counselor on Monday.

He is dragging his feet to test you.He is trying to have you do for him what he should be doing for himself.

BOUNDARIES!