No, no, NeedKarma I do not wish you were ignorant. WE just do not agree with spiritual issues as this is not the first time we have argued over the subject.

As for the issue of sin, well a great deal of the argument against gay unions comes from the fact of whether the action is considered a sin or not. IF considered a sin than churches cannot go along with marriages and so the state makes civil unions to compensate. The state does not express for or against gays in many ways as to not infringe on one's religious beleifs. Really, I don't think that state and religion are separate and apart and the whole civil union idea was derived out of this same argument I'd wager. Whether it is sin or not.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

I have a question for those against gay marriage because it is a sin. I'm being honest, I'd really like honest responses, I really am confused about this.

You (the collective you) say gays should not be allowed to marry because being gay is a sin. What does that sin have to do with marriage? There are a lot of sins - and no one else is forbidden to marry because of their sin. Murderers, adulterers, liars; they all still have the right to marry. Is the "gay sin" worse than those other sins, and that's why they aren't allowed to marry?

I just really don't understand the logic. I thought you were supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner; and if that's so, why are gays given unequal treatment in this regard? To me (and maybe I'm missing something) if one's only reason for disapproving of gay marriage is that it is a "sin" that person should also be against liars, adulterers, murderers, etc getting married because those are also "sins". If one is NOT against those others getting married, then it indicates to me there is prejudice against gays, and the objection is to gays, not to sinners. And then we get into ugly words like racism and judging...

I'm willing to admit I might be missing something; maybe no one has explained their argument fully enough for me to "get it". But this is how I see the logic - and it just doesn't work. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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I'm sorry I wasn't making this the point from the beginning... I, nor any true follower of the Bible and Christ, will ever tell a homosexual that they are any less of a person for being gay. In reality, that's the common misconception about sin altogether, is that with or without certain ones you are a better or worse person because of them.
All have sinned, every one and for us to think that abstaining from 'the majority' of sin makes us any better, makes us actually worse, and right in with the brood of vipers that Jesus himself condemned.
The reason that any true Christian would not approve of gay marriage, is because its putting the sinner, (just like any person) into a situation that they are bound to. Its making it even more difficult to turn from your sins of the past and follow God (repentance) because you are not only emotionally bound, which God can break in a moment, its called deliverance, but legally.
Im not going to use the "oh Ive got friends that are gay so I MUST not have a problem with it" thing. Psh.
I sin, we all sin, and we all need God, I just wouldn't want someone who God LOVES and created to commune with Him to have any more of a difficult time to come to Him by legality.

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Originally Posted by Leidenschaftlich für Wahr

I'm sorry I wasnt making this the point from the beginning... I, nor any true follower of the Bible and Christ, will ever tell a homosexual that they are any less of a person for being gay. In reality, thats the common misconception about sin altogether, is that with or without certain ones you are a better or worse person because of them.
All have sinned, every one and for us to think that abstaining from 'the majority' of sin makes us any better, makes us actually worse, and right in with the brood of vipers that Jesus himself condemned.
The reason that any true Christian would not approve of gay marriage, is because its putting the sinner, (just like any person) into a situation that they are bound to. Its making it even more difficult to turn from your sins of the past and follow God (repentance) because you are not only emotionally bound, which God can break in a moment, its called deliverance, but legally.
Im not going to use the "oh Ive got friends that are gay so I MUST not have a problem with it" thing. Psh.
I sin, we all sin, and we all need God, I just wouldnt want someone who God LOVES and created to commune with Him to have any more of a difficult time to come to Him by legality.

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Well, that certainly isn't the response I was expecting - You oppose gay marriage because it makes it harder for the gays to form a relationship with god. So you're against it, for their ultimate "best interest".

No, I certainly didn't expect that.

I, too, was raised in a Christian family. My mom Catholic, and my dad Lutheran.

I went to Sunday school, Bible camp, Confirmation Camp, all that rigamarole.

I CHOSE my religion as an adult.

I "understand" the Christian perspective--I just find it hypocritical.

Jillian raises the best point, though--and it's really what I was trying to say. Why can OTHER sins be ignored for the sake of marriage, but not homosexuality? Why shouldn't someone who was once an adulterer, who was divorced for it, not be denied the sanctity of marriage a second time, then?

I just don't understand why giving someone a way to publicly express love AND that gives them legal rights at the same time is so bad.

A person who committed adultery can be forgiven, they can turn from their sin, just like a gay person, they can turn from their sin and get married to someone of the other sex.

That is the real difference, being sorry for their sin, and asking forgiveness for their sin.

nothing had to understand about the Christian idea of sin, it is not a double standard, it is a fact that the homosexual community does not want to admit it is a sin at all.

Hello again:

I'm still blown away that Leiden would deny gays the right to marry because he's looking out for 'em.

I live in sin daily. Don't you want to look out for me too? What rights should you take away from me that would make be a better person?

excon

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

A person who committed adultery can be forgiven, they can turn from thier sin

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Do you advocate that adulterers and fornicators should be denied equal protection under civil and criminal law until they "turn from their [sic] sin"? Why should one class of sexual sinners (homosexuals) be denied legal rights and protections that other classes of sinners (adulterers, fornicators) are afforded?

You think it's a sin? Fine, don't marry them in your church. But don't try to deny basic secular legal protections to people just because your church defines them as sinners. Civil and criminal law deals in guilt and punishment, not sin. In case you haven't heard, the Supreme Court put the final nail in the coffin of sodomy laws a year or two ago. I suppose it's a moot point now, but I always wondered if lesbians could commit the crime of sodomy. You used to be in law enforcement, do you know?

It's not natural, it's not normal and it is a further deviation from the traditional family…I say no to same sex marriage.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

A person who committed adultery can be forgiven, they can turn from thier sin, just like a gay person, they can turn from thier sin and get married to someone of the other sex.

That is the real difference, being sorry for thier sin, and asking forgiveness for thier sin.

nothing had to understand about the Christian idea of sin, it is not a double standard, it is a fact that the homosexual community does not want to admit it is a sin at all.

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Although I understand your point of the fact that... true repentance is turning from your sin, and it can't be true turning if you know that you'll do it again, I have to disagree with you about the adultery thing. This could definitely begin a whole other spill, but the Bible says that if a person is married and then decides to divorce, thus sins and is causing the other to sin, except on the grounds of unfaithfulness...
I appreciate your point though
~Ash

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

It’s not natural, it’s not normal and it is a further deviation from the traditional family…I say no to same sex marriage.

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So is living together, a deviation of traditional marriage, as far as normal, that's what gay people, do so its normal among homosexuals, and I doubt saying that its unnatural will find agreement in the gay community. I think its up to the church, not the law, whether they will marry a gay couple, and as everyone knows the institution of marriage is only working half the time, and falling steadily. I think they should have to go through a divorce, just like us married people.

Gay animals out of the closet? - LiveScience - MSNBC.com

AWW MAN based on the above link over 1500 species of animals are going to hell :( They have been known to have sexual relationships...

"Homosexuality has been observed in more than 1,500 species, and the phenomenon has been well described for 500 of them."

I'd understand homosexuality being a choice if it was just humans, but sorry animals don't choose if they are gay... Try to explain that...

SIDENOTE: And instead of some quote from the bible that has nothing to do with animals or homosexuality, actually find a quote that has to do it with, anyone can twist words.

Of course there is no real protectoin under the law for homosexual marriage, this is a desire that the constitution be rewritten to say it, but it does not.

But they have all the same rights, if they wish to find someone of the other sex and marry they have all the same and EQUAL rights to everyone else.

And yes, animal sexual desires, so you are saying that homoseuxals are down to merely animal sexual desires?? I would give them more credit as to making a choice in their actoins.

In the end, it is really not a natural sexual act, as mentioned eariler, but of course those that are homosexual will not admit that ither, any more than admit it is a sin.

But God will forgive you when you are really to repent, he loves everyone, no matter what their place in life. But of course bible quotes mean little to those that don't want to accept his word anyway.

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But of course bible quotes mean little to those that don't want to accept his word anyway.

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Your correct, that's for christians to worry about and as a non christian and with all due respect the bible is a book, written by man for man, as are all the "bibles" and cannot replace a personal relationship between God and the individual. As to the question, Is homosexuality natural, of course it is, and will always be. It may not be popular, and history tells us it isn't, but among those who are homosexual, its as natural as man and women, and there are many examples in nature, to back up that claim. Even further there are some animals that actually change their sex to compensate, for the lack of a gender, so they can procreate.

Well humans are animals just more educated, I'm simply saying its not just not a human choice just like retardation, cancer, and such. Now like above someone will say I'm sayinng being gay is like being retarted. Its not, and I'm bi so I would be insulting myself if I said otherwise. Im saying its like your eye color and height, you can't change it.

And therefore gay marriage should be accepted. We let crimminals get married and killers and yet 2 guys just seem wrong, not a person who kills people.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Your correct, thats for christians to worry about and as a non christian and with all due respect the bible is a book, written by man for man, as are all the "bibles" and cannot replace a personal relationship between God and the individual. As to the question, Is homosexuality natural, of course it is, and will always be. It may not be popular, and history tells us it isn't, but among those who are homosexual, its as natural as man and women, and their are many examples in nature, to back up that claim. Even further there are some animals that actually change their sex to compensate, for the lack of a gender, so they can procreate.

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Those animals go to animal hell then... Least that's what the bible says in a sense.

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Originally Posted by sGt HarDKorE

Those animals go to animal hell then... Least thats what the bible says in a sense.

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Um, Sgt, that's how some interpret those verses. Others interpret them differently.

Its not natural, I have truly been biting my tongue here. I have posted my stance earlier. I feel this thread has gone all over the place and is never ending. This thread was about gay marriage and nothing else.

Joe

If it was about gay civil unions (no church involved) do you think the answers would be different?

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KalFour disagrees: Firstly, animals having occasional homosexual tendencies aregues that it IS natural. And secondly, the new testament states that you can be forgiven if you love Jesus, you don't have to repent for every detail of your life.

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Had to spread it but I wanted to give a balancer. This is a totally inaccurate statement.

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I think they should have to go through a divorce, just like us married people.

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I have to admit this is a good point.