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Could you put your Ph.D. program on hold and get a job (with a master's) for a while? Subsidize your academic loans? (You can do this once, I believe.) Would you work at a good job while in your Ph.D. program? (You'd have to, methinks.) Talk with creditors or a credit counselor to work out something to reduce your cc amounts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
If I pay child support right now, then I have to default on both my student loans AND our credit cards AND my vehicle; but I didn't plan on having my income cut in half at the drop of a hat either. I simply didn't think our situation would ever get this bad... I thought we were stable and close enough to at least communicate what the problems were and work towards a solution before our family dissolved. She agreed to wait for any kind of support if I took care of the debts, but with the low wages in my state I'd honestly make more money in college than I would at my job (sad but true; like I've posted, I took this job because we both agreed it was best for our family... it wasn't my decision alone... it was a family decision that we all agreed on, and if it wasn't then it's not my fault... I asked what everyone thought and if anyone wanted to stay in Fayetteville, and everyone agreed to move and that it would be best for us).
"What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time."
I'm going to get a cheaper place. I've already found a cabin with all utilities paid for half what my rent alone is now. I'm going to go there at the end of February. I need to get my financial house in order or my/our credit is going to be ruined and the creditors will start calling BOTH of us.
Also, if my situation is sorry, imagine what her situation will be like once her mother tires of supporting her. She has a minimum-wage job, she lost her healthcare benefits at work because she simply quit out of the blue, she has a high-school education and 3 children to care for by herself (one with autism, which is an extra burden... let me tell you!). The only reason she's surviving is because her mother/step-father are supporting her and she lives in their house... and like I've posted a million times, they're not stable... these people move around like nomadic herdspeople... I've never seen anything like it and I worry that my children will now be forced into that unstable lifestyle because their mother can't afford to take care of them without her mother's help, and she has far fewer prospects to take care of them financially than I do. I'll get my financial house in order and then get my Ph.D. in three years, all the while making more than I do now with fewer bills... I honestly think in a few months she'll start to experience some of the hardships from the situation she's chosen, but it's going to take a little while. She hasn't felt any of the negatives from her decision yet, but once she does she might start opening up to at least communicating with me. That's also what hurts the most... want happiness? Simply get rid of Dad! Heck, they're disposable and you can always get another one... my children are growing up without a father because of her decision. They didn't want this either, and begged their mother to please not do this while she was packing. She's being extremely selfish in my opinion, and is looking out for no one but herself and what SHE wants. I'd go to counseling, I'd look at what I'd done wrong or could do better... I'm willing to work on both myself and our relationship. Difference is that she doesn't even want to talk much, though every once in a while she'll talk to me for a while about pertinent relationship details, which makes me wonder if she misses me every now and then. Come on people, it wasn't 13 years of belittling and ignoring her. For the past 8 I've been a dedicated family man. I gave up many of my dreams and goals for my family and my wife. I want to travel the world, spend a summer in Europe, have a second home in Belize, and earn my Ph.D. so I can teach and conduct research for an educational institution. I put those on hold and/or gave them up for my family and my wife.
Ok, so for now. I live 4 hours away and at this point I can't afford to drive up and see my children. However, once I get out of the house I'm currently in then I can. If I get into a Ph.D. program in Fayetteville then I'll be in a much better position to help with our children both distance-wise and financially. If I go to College Station (Texas A&M), then I'll be about 10 hours away and won't see my children but a few times a year... I don't like that idea but it would pay more...
I have a job with my master's degree... I had to have my master's to simply apply! Still, I qualify for food stamps with my family size and only my income. The longer I put off my Ph.D. the worse it's going to get. Once I have to pay child support while I'm working, I might as well kiss that dream goodbye. Earning a Ph.D. while working is practically impossible unless the program isn't worth getting into... you get out what you put in. The other thing is that my Ph.D. program will probably pay MORE than I currently make with my "professional" master's-level job! Sad, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I hear what you're saying. I have a master's in counseling psych and know whereof you speak. And I live in the wealthier areas of Chicagoland. Was just ruminating...Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
I hear you. I also have to admit it's humbling to be forced into selling most of my belongings and furniture and live in a one-room cabin at the KOA campground... wasn't an advanced education supposed to prevent this sort of thing? I want a refund... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
Woah, people... read this! It made my heart skip a beat. Honest interpretations? I really DO appreciate the honesty this board offers but this is the most painful time in my life I've yet to experience.
Danielle sent you a message.
Re: This weekend
"Hello. Yes, we plan on being there this coming weekend. The children will likely be at Daddy's. Nice to have your brother there. How is he?? Ok. Thanks for the invite. I just may take you up on it. Yes, we could probably do something. I do need some time away from my troubles. They have a way of multiplying, you know. I haven't been to a casino. I did go to the horse races with Daddy. That is cool about the cabin. I know that it really sucks to move and all. Is the cabin there in town?? Yes, I do not want that either. Neither of us needs financial ruin to top everything else. I know. I too would like to have been there until June at least. Didn't work out that way though. Do you want Lacey?? I have to give her up. She would like to be with you. The children wanted me to ask. They would like to visit her still. I really need to find a good home for her. I will get back to you soon. Thank you for being nice to me.
DANIELLE."
And ANOTHER:
(here is what I sent)
You know, it just occurred to me that I also messed up with something else. When you were staying out late with your friends all the time, I should have read between the lines and tried to see WHY you didn't want to come home instead of complaining about WHAT you were doing. Maybe had I taken care of business at home and tried to work on our relationship and see what YOU needed & wanted it might have been different. If you ever give me another chance please know that I'd try to make you as happy as possible instead of complaining, and try to be the husband you needed me to be. Danielle
(Here is what she responded with)
Today at 4:09pm
THANK YOU!! I wasn't out doing anything bad. I just wanted to be away from the constant ing and complaining. It made me feel sick to be there. I just wanted to escape. That was all it was. I will be down soon. Perhaps we can nicely discuss this.?
Ok, here is my interpretation. She has to give up the cat, right? Notice the sudden change in demeanor as well when compared to the earlier emails... it almost sounds like "her troubles have a way of multiplying." Guess what I think has happened? Her situation up there is falling apart or her mother is moving "yet again" or something of that nature. She is now admitting she just wanted an escape... she now wants to nicely discuss this? I feel warm all over and starting crying almost. She wants to spend time with me this weekend. I want to take her somewhere fun so I can show her that I'm not just old and boring. I love my wife and family, people... I really do.
Now I feel bad for the cat. Can you take her to the cabin?Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
I'm sure of it; however, I'm going to hold off on the cabin until after this weekend's visit. She sent another email which I am posting here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Jan 26, 2009 3:37 PM Flag as Spam or Report Abuse [?] Subject:
RE: Hello
Body:
Hi there. I thank you for all you are saying. I know this really sucks. Listen, I can't get into all this right now. Perhaps tomorrow I will get back to you at length. I just got back from working. I am very tired. [Our daughter] has been sick also. Mother took her to the dr this afternoon. I will let you know about that also. I will get back to you soon. I'm not blowing you off or anything. I just need to be left alone for a bit. Thank you for understanding.
[Wife].
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: [Me]
Date: Jan 26, 2009 10:56 AM
Just wanted to stop by and tell you how much I love and miss you. You're such a beautiful woman, you haven't aged a day. I used to get so excited about you and I miss some of the awesome sexual experiences we had together. You were AMAZING and REALLY hot... I loved those moments and love thinking about them. I've never been so excited or so satisfied as when we had great loving. Wish I would have appreciated you more and taken care of your needs, because there's no one else I want. I love you, my wife. I came across a birthday card you gave me last year and I started crying... I couldn't hold it back. You said how much living with me was being loved every day, and how you looked forward to the rest of our lives. God knows I love you more than anyone, it just won't go away and I miss our family being together. Come back home, please, and we can work on our issues. I don't want to start over after 13 years... I just want you and our family together and happy.
Love,
[Me]
These emails have a distinct change in their tone and demeanor... I hope this means she might offer another chance. It at least sounds like she'll go out on a date with me and stay the night if things go well. I'm going to do everything I can to just have a good time and enjoy my wife's company and show her I love and respect her. Anyone have any opinions or views on this apparent change? When she speaks of "troubles multiplying" it sounds to me like things are starting to turn sour up there... Like I've posted before, her mother and step-father are non-commital (the also buy pets and get rid of them every few months... I won't do that and keep our pets until they've lived out their lives... this is an example of how unstable these people are! Imagine how they are with people!).
Right now, I imagine her mother is already tiring of taking care of 3 children while my wife goes to work AND/OR they're talking about moving already... my wife is probably starting to see that maybe our lives down here were not THAT BAD... problems? Sure, I'll grant that, but nothing deserving of what happened. She also basically admitted that she just needed to get away and felt sick with the complaining and b*itching, and the current email I posted says she just needs some space for now... I can work on that people... it almost sounds like I might get another shot at this marriage thing. I'll keep everyone posted, but I also want to hear some feedback!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, I think I might end up going to the three-bedroom one-bath home for $450 a month; maybe we need to date again? Like was posted before, I need to whisper sweet nothings and court her... that is what she really wants at this point. Like I promised, I'd work and she can stay at home with the children until August, when she can enroll in classes. In that manner, we'll be financially viable even without the extra income, and my wife, family, and I can work on our relationship. I'm going show her a REALLY good time this weekend and just try to love my wife and respect her... I'm not even going to discuss our problems.
Well I do wish you the best of luck with all of this. Keep in mind though, actions speak louder than words
Definitely, but I'm wanting to know what the board thinks about these emails! Good, bad, or neutral? Hopeful?Quote:
Originally Posted by Romefalls19
I think they are sincere and the best you can do is wait to talk to her in person like she stated she would. Trying to read into an e-mail or text message is like trying to read someone's mind. I can't tell you how many arguments I've seen happen because they took a text the wrong way. It's better to let the assumming go and wait to see how she acts in person towards you and the relationship issues.
But I do feel hopeful. I understand not wanting to read too much into it... but compared to the previous emails I've posted from her, these are DEFINITELY different and positive.
I agree with the different and positive aspect and applaud your efforts to show her that you want to change. It takes a big person to admit their mistakes and an even bigger person to take the steps to correct them.
Thanks, man... it's nice to hear. I'm hoping for the best, and I realize it still might not work out but at least she's willing to start a dialogue and spend some time with me to see if this could work out. We had a good relationship until we both started working and for the past 6-9 months we haven't been out on a single date (with just the two of us). We've just been busy, but I can promise you that if she offers a chance at reconciliation I won't make that same mistake again (but I could make 1000 others!). We'd set aside time for each other and I'll work on my complaining... we needed to get our financial house in order though, because it took every dime we had to stay in our house... we needed to downsize our home and downsize our workload. Once she finishes with school we can get or build the home we've always wanted but maybe it was too much, too soon? Obviously she didn't think the work was worth the result.
I haven't said anything because in some ways you remind me a lot of my ex husband and I didn't want that to color my advice excessively.
But you seem to have made a couple baby steps toward recognizing what needs to change on your end if you have a chance of reviving your marriage. Just don't rush anything. And don't forget that you can only change yourself.
Try to take it slow, look for cues from her on how she wants to proceed as far as physical intimacy. It's such a delicate line you'll be walking with her. So it might be a good idea to think of her as a new person that you're just getting to know. She's taken some pretty big steps to gain some independence and self worth back. So it might be helpful to welcome that. From everything, it has sounded like somewhere in the last 13 years, she lost some of her own self respect (and maybe even yours.)
And just a final thought, try not to gloat if she has hit hard times. You won't win her back if she feels like going back to you means giving up or failure. That would just further the rift and make her more determined to be by herself.
All in all, I'm pretty impressed at how much you seem to have taken to heart some pretty rough advice. You've been called on some less desirable character traits and have swallowed all of it. It sounds like you've grown from this. I wish you all the best and I really hope you can find a happy homelife.
My suggestion is, when you and your wife get together or even on the phone, you be quiet and listen to her. Don't bubble over with all your great ideas on how things can improve if we do this and that. Just do the empathy thing, be an active listener. Make those empathy noises - "Hmmmm" and "Tell me more" and "I hear you saying...." and "Good question. What do YOU think?" Practice everything you've learned so far about connecting with someone and getting inside their skin. Channel Carl Rogers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Good advice; it'd be real easy for me to do what you said (start talking about how I'll make everything better... I need to be quiet and listen to her). I'll let everyone know how it goes, and if I receive any other emails or updates before then. I just have to say it feels better knowing that she's at least thawing out a bit... I really don't like it when she's cold or distant towards me... that's one of the things I've loved about her... she was always warm and compassionate... when she gets angry or resentful towards me, I don't like the lack of compassion that follows.
Thank you, and no I don't plan on gloating... there's nothing to gloat about; this entire situation is a tragedy in my view. I'm just hoping she'll see that if freedom and career success is what she wants, she's taking the most difficult path I can imagine. I do want her to be happy and help her attend school... I've wanted that for her for a LONG time. Maybe working long hours at a retail chain led her to think her life wasn't going anywhere. I can relate because that's how I felt when I finally left my first job... it was at a refrigerator factory and I stayed for five years... I just couldn't take it anymore. I was burned out, I felt like I was 50 instead of 23 due to the repetitive motions, and going to school while working there full-time was almost impossible. I had to leave, regardless of the consequences and haven't had another job that paid as much or more until I started at my current job. I do understand getting burned out. Anyway, I also thank you for your advice; I should treat her like someone new and just try to have a good time and "get to know her" again. People can renew their relationships, and like I've posted before, when I made my vow I didn't mean just when it was convenient or as long as things were going well. I want to stay married to the same woman for my entire life and I'll do what it takes to stay that way (and happy, of course). This divorce business is for the lawyers and the birds...Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlWSlingshot
Divorce is not a good thing, especially for any children involved. It's something I fought long and hard against but when you're the only one trying, it's next to impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
It's great that you're making such an effort to see things from her eyes. That will make a big difference. Too often people get trapped in seeing things just from their side and therefore miss opportunities to grow. I really am impressed at how much growth you've had in such a short time. Just don't lose sight of your goal, having your wife back in your arms.
Your children must remain foremost in your mind on this one, you WILL get through this but it will take a lot of time and THINK before you make any actions. The most important part of a relationship is to TALK and lots of it, all the time. Other wise when problems come along you don's see them. Your wife had a brill life, or so it seems, everything a modern wife could want and more so don't blame any one, things do go wrong in a marriage and you have to work on it but the only way to do it is to talk it through. Always be there to listen to her and try not to argue, always stay calm. Your children are stronger than you think and will come through this as long as you don't let them manuipulate the situation. Parents are often guilty of trying to BUY their kids love or affection to make them look like the better parent but that can have a big detrimental effect. See them as often as you can, love them, don't be afraid to cuddle them and tell them how much they mean to you. They also need to know its not them to blame for the split. Give her time to adjust and think, plenty of space and support, babysit from time to time and if you think there is someone else involved just ask her outright, lies will come out eventually so don't just assume. I hope you manage to work it out and you do right to further your career. I am a big believer in everything happens for a reason so chill out, enjoy the life you have for now. It will all come right in the end.
True, but I often think of what my pastor said years ago. If you REALLY want to take care of your children, love their mother and treat her well. In our post-1970's (divorce spiked during that time) world, we say focus on the children. True, we should focus on them... but it's also important to remember that children need healthy, loving families as well. So, love your spouse and treat them well; your children need to see that too.
Thanks; she says there's no one else, and other than my earlier reason for wondering I had no reason to believe it was happening. I just look forward to having her with me, even if it's for lunch, dinner, or a "date." I think we need to take some time off from having the kids and just spend some time with each other. We used to have a great time together and I do miss those days, or rather, miss the time we spent together.Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter1961
Greatbignow, don't set yourself up for dissappointment. I don't think she is coming to visit, to make your marriage work. She wants to talk. She wouldn't be asking you to take the cat, if that was her intentions. I don't understand, you say you were a good Dad and took care of your children. Well so far, I am not seeing that. You haven't seen your kids in quite awhile now. IT doesn't seem like their your priority. Yes, she was your wife and still is, but you keep on going back to her, not the kids. You say you love your children and they are important to you, what I see in your paragraph above you want to spend time away from the kids and be with her. That's not someone who want's the best for their kids, to me, that's thinking of yourself. Your setting yourself up to get hurt again.
Have you read the whole thread? There's a bit more to all of the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by sully123
I think Sully makes a point though.
He can spend time with his wife and also spend some time with the kids while she does other things. It doesn't have to be either or.
Good point Asking... It might be an idea to keep the two separate concepts while he courts his wife though. At this point, his relationship with his wife should not change his relationship with his children. Even if he cannot see them everyday, that doesn't change the fact that he's their father and they need him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully123
I haven't been up to see my kids due to financial reasons. The money simply has not been there. Yes, I'm wanting to spend time with her because that was part of the problem. She didn't feel like we had a marital-grade relationship. She doesn't just want to talk. She said that in addition to discussing these issues, she wants to go out and have a good time for a bit because "troubles have a way of multiplying." No, I don't want to get set up to be hurt again either, but these sound positive to me and I'm going to see how things go. My relationship with my children isn't what needed work; my relationship with my wife did and does. It was more like a business where we raised the children and worked (my wife's view which I concede to); there was little going on romantically or emotionally between the two of us. Sounds to me like she wants to come down and both discuss some things AND spend time with me. Maybe I can change from being a grouchy old man...
Here's the last email she sent... along with what I sent to get that response. Sounds to me like she's saying it was a desperate response but that "that's all it was." She wants to discuss why she wanted to get away and all she wanted to escape was the complaining.
You know, it just occurred to me that I also messed up with something else. When you were staying out late with your friends all the time, I should have read between the lines and tried to see WHY you didn't want to come home instead of complaining about WHAT you were doing. Maybe had I taken care of business at home and tried to work on our relationship and see what YOU needed & wanted it might have been different. If you ever give me another chance please know that I'd try to make you as happy as possible instead of complaining, and try to be the husband you needed me to be. Danielle Harford
January 26 at 4:09pm
THANK YOU!! I wasn't out doing anything bad. I just wanted to be away from the constant ing and complaining. It made me feel sick to be there. I just wanted to escape. That was all it was. I will be down soon. Perhaps we can nicely discuss this.?
You better be a good listener, learn when to shut up, and pay attention. Don't try to fix a darn thing, just listen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I can be, and I will be.
Quick excerpt from a book review about relationships and parenting.
"While we may reach this conclusion from very different perspectives at times, what we both agree on is that sex matters... a lot. [main emphasis of mine: Parents can give their children everything, but nothing is a substitute for parental happiness. And in our opinion, sex is the glue that holds couples together and keeps lovers from simply becoming roommates or co-parents (co-parents are what my wife and I had become)]. It's also the good sticky stuff that dries up if left alone for too long. So here we are to help you keep things fluid out there, to take the charge out this once taboo issue, and put the charge back where it should be — in the bedroom."
Excerpted from "Love in the Time of Colic" by Ian Kerner, PhD, and Heidi Raykeli. Copyright (c) 2009 by Kerner-Rubisch, Inc. and Heidi Raykeil. Reprinted with permission from HarperCollins.
Yes, of course I'm their father but I have to disagree that the relationship doesn't change with your children... when you're not living with them everyday, it DOES change, and not for the better. Especially concerning my teenage step-daughter (whom I've raised since she was 1), it wouldn't surpise me to see that she questions my authority and such. The younger two maybe not so much, but they're 8 and 10. We'll see how this weekend goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlWSlingshot
I agree with Tal, listen!Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It's up to you to change things with your children, and it can be for the better! They can have two loving parents, in two separate households. It's what you make of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully123
I don't consider divorce a viable option. As long as my wife signals that she might be willing to talk and/or work this out, I'm going to be there for her and try to stay married. I haven't heard from her since those last messages on Monday, but they sounded hopeful to me. My only concern is that I might have misunderstood or miscontrued them. However, that's why I posted them on this board; in that manner, I've had other people & professionals looking at them with a new set of eyes. I'm assuming that my interpretation matches that of the board? She sounds willing to talk and try to work this out; at least discuss our issues? Also, I figure if she didn't want to spend the night with me and go out to dinner/date she would have made it pointedly clear. Instead, she's offering what appears to be a possibility. I plan on listening and showing her that I love her in whatever appropriate way presents itself.
One thing that will be of value is her expression when I first see her. If she smiles and appears "warm" then it's likely she misses me as well and we might have a good chance at discussing these issues. I just want my wife and children back, and I'm going to do everything reasonable to help facilitate that.
I spoke with my wife and children last night for over an hour. At first it was business and the children (their power has been out for 3 days due to an ice storm and it won't be reconnected for another 3-4 days; she's had some time to sit and think about things), but then we started talking about our relationship and issues. She made it perfectly clear that she grew resentful & hateful primarily as a result of my lack of physical intimacy with her. Wow, sexual frustration really does come to play in this situation... she has always been a "lively" woman when it comes to that activity, but I didn't think it could break our marriage. So, we'll see what happens this weekend; if it goes well then I might be warmer at night :-).
Perhaps it should be "I might be warmer at night, if it goes well then." Even better (without the wheeling and dealing) is "I will put fun and excitement and sexual energy into our marriage from here on -- and will regularly ask my new friends on AMHD for ideas."Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
Just to be clear, no I don't agree with this. If you think the message board is supporting your interpretation, I, for one, am not.Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbignow
I think you are reading too much into too little, and over the last few days you have let yourself run away with it.
I don't think that because she didn't rule things out, that she has therefore committed to doing them or is even very open to them. I feel like you are not listening to her words, which have been that she does not think it's likely that you two will get back together. If you ascribe all this intent to her without her having said any of it and you then either overwhelm her and draw her back in against her better judgement because she wants to get along or you get upset when she says no to any of your current hopes, then you are not listening to her and respecting what she has said to you. It's like you are letting your interpretation of what you think she ought to be saying supercede what she has really said. You need to get out of her head and let her think her own thoughts and tell you what she wants to say. She doesn't need you to do that for her.
I think you need to massively rein in your expectations and show more respect for the process.
Her exact expression when you meet is NOT the key to the rest of your life. If she looks down, it may be for a hundred reasons unrelated to you--bad traffic, bad news unrelated to you. If she looks warm, don't assume that means you are back on as married. This is a separate person; please stop thinking you know everything she's feeling. Also, it's normal for people married a long time to have habits of warmth at times. That's not diagnostic of your future together.
Reduce expectations of this meeting, give her space, stop trying to read her mind. Instead, hear and acknowledge what she's actually saying to you.
PS. That's not to say you shouldn't be positive and warm. But if you really want her back, let her decide what she is saying and, importantly, what she wants to do. Don't assume anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
Thanks for the feedback; last night I mainly listened to her for a while and wanted to make completely sure that I wasn't taking her emails out of context or misinterpreting them. Yes, she does indeed want to see how the weekend goes and we spoke about our relationship at length. She's open to discussing it and having a good time together. I mostly listened, as I said I would.
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