One of you will get sick, and tired and make a decision, and then follow a plan of action.
Protect yourself, and your kids.
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One of you will get sick, and tired and make a decision, and then follow a plan of action.
Protect yourself, and your kids.
Her parents had a similar dysfunctional arrangement, sleeping in different bedrooms. I worry that she is modeling them, and that our kids will model us. But, I still worry about the effects of divorce on an 11 and 13 year old. They may end up modeling us with their own divorces someday.
Wonder which behavior is the worst, separate bedrooms, or divorce?
Sometimes couples sleep in different bedrooms because one of them snore. Doesn't mean they don't have an active love life.
I don't think I would want to, but who knows.
Last PM my wife sent a text saying she was going to dinner with one of her baseball friends. I called her, asked why she won't go to dinner with me but will with him, and said how hurt I felt. She screamed at me, saying how unhappy she's been for years because of how I've treated her, and she has no interest in making the marriage work. She refuses to talk to anybody about this. I'm concerned that she may have a mental condition, especially how she blames me for everything. If we divorce, then the kids will have to live with a mom with a mental condition.
A wife who doesn't like her husband is not mental, just mad. And I guess so are you right now.
Sorry guy, when a wife starts dating another, its time for some very proactive action. Think about it, because when there is no talking, or trying, and disrespectful behavior, its time to go, so again protect yourself, and your relationship with your kids, and put the rest in your back pocket, and leave.
You can't save a marriage when one partner wants out.
She's been unhappy for a long time.
Lets see if I have this right - Your wife is dating another man with whom she shares an interest in baseball, she does not have sex with you and does not want your touch, she has told you she is no longer interested in the marriage, she refuses to take responsibility for any of the problems in the marriage, she is dispectful to you, treats you and your concerns with contempt. Oh I forgot she wants to remodle the kitchen. Tucsondoc, you are divorced and your wife has started to date.
I can see that you are committed to making your marriage work and concern for your children is a big and ligitimate factor for staying together. If you decide to stay then you have to put up with the reality that your wife will continue to treat you with contempt and disrespect.
Although keeping an intact home is good for the kids seeing their Father treated like you are treated is not.
If you examine and accept the new realities of your life I think you will be able to cope better. First, you have to e plain to your wife that when one spouse exits the relationship, activities with repect to money change as well. There is no reason to invest in a kitchen redesign if she has exited the relationship is there. She is getting emotional support and maybe sex from someone other than yourself and I am certain if things go as they are now, you may seek the same. Her perception of reality is distorted but she does not seem crazy from what you say here she sounds very angry. I would sit down and really think about where you are, maybe consider this a separation and although you both stay in the house, everything else has to be negotiated to make it the lest emotionally painful for all especially the kids.
She's not in love with those guys, she is just infatuated with how kindly they treat her. She knows she can't be with them. She just thinks I should treat her special like they do. I told her I must have at one time as we did marry. She just focuses on how I've treated her recently. I admitted that I've not treated her the way she deserves to be treated out of resentment of her spending and her lack of appreciation of what she has. I expected her to be happy with a comfortable lifestyle and was frustrated that she wasn't, which is why I called her a b****. I told her that I now know how important it is to be kind to her, but again, she says it's too late. We married Catholic, but she no longer attends Mass. I asked if she still believed in forgiveness and reconciliation, but she is not ready for either.
I've accepted the new reality of a loveless (from her side), sexless marriage for the time being. Maybe I'm a martyr for staying for the kids sake, but I'll stop if I start blaming them instead of myself for staying.
My husband and I recently had a similar break after 20 years of marriage. One thing he said to me that I really took to heart was "I have no expectations" - meaning of me. He was waiting for me to vent, heal, come back around to him in my own time. One thing I read recently on the internet really spoke to how women sometimes get into these resentful situations, after years of putting up with little hurts and disappointments. Maybe it would be helpful for you to read and understand a little of what she might be going through. I realize you see the need for better communication and maybe counseling, as the article tries to convince "men", but the narration on how it got there might help you..
http://net-burst.net/marital/counseling.htm
Hope it helps. Give her space and lots of love.
I understand better with your latest post. Vmom1 has hit the nail on the head. Please follow her advice and good luck.
Thanks Vmom1, I'll read the link. I am seeing a therapist, and she told me not to move out. Since I still love her, I'm not willing to give up yet.
Vmom1, read the link, and it may be too late. I'm starting to see a therapist on my own, my wife absolutely refuses. She may be afraid of issues coming up from her childhood which she feels are too painful to remember, although she has spoken to me about them already. Her's was a home of conflict, which she vows not to repeat in our marriage. That may have contributed to her internalizing our conflicts. Even though she recounts our disagreements, it hasn't seem to lessen the pain. I just ask her not to put anything else in this "closet".
You said your husband has no expectations of you. Not even respect. This is something that is sorely missing in our relationship, especially since she want to go to New York again with her "friend" to watch another Yankees game. I've told her that no only does she not love me, she doesn't respect me. I know I have to earn that respect, but does she have to flaunt her disrespect for me.
That would be unacceptable!! When lines are crossed in this manner, communications, and respect are lost, time to back up, and get a whole new plan. I know it hurts going through this, and very hard to imagine the right things to do for yourself, But some of the things you have currently placed aside must be considered. Like separation, and talking to a lawyer. Knowing full rights, and legal options, are but a wise step in protecting yourself, as respect may be earned, but also be deserved too. It also shows that your tired of the games and uncertainty and will entertain your options when you have no respect from a partner.
Maybe seeing how her world would be without you is what she needs to get some reality, or be honest about her agenda, or motives with you. Regardless of the present situation being unsustainable for much longer, you should know you options and the consequences of her actions and that means you having a place to go that YOU can be comfortable at least, to find your peace of mind, and see what path you wish to walk, because she sure as heck ain't doing anything to resolve the issues you have.
I would make no bones to her about my displeasure at her actions. Nor would I hide the fact that I was willing, and able to change this whole dynamic around, and withdraw full support for all her actions.
If she can't talk about it, some one has to go, and soon, and we can sell this house, and get on with our own lives as individuals. You can't make someone work with you, but you can work in your own behalf without them, with much more than just therapy.
The flaunting is her saying how much she enjoyed New York, or telling me about a text comment from him regarding a particular baseball team. Isn't this being inconsiderate, knowing the problems we've going through?
You're the one allowing it, and for sure you will get more of it.
It sounds like you are both really hurting. Maybe she is doing things to hurt you because she felt hurt for a long time. We really can't give you advice here, not knowing both of your sides, and only seeing snippets of information you can give here. Your therapist is better off advising you on what you can do for yourself while you are waiting on or trying to work on things with your wife.
She may really still love you, but the feeling of not wanting to give someone more of you because they hurt you is a very real feeling - I can assure you from my experience. But as you said, she did once love you, and deep down she may still. I advise you to re-read carefully the post I referred to regarding the man's role as the head of the marriage - you are a Godly man and I hope you can see what it is saying there.
I know some people here are advising you to watch out for yourself and keep from getting used (basically). If she is having an affair, that is probably good advice, but if she is just trying to find something enjoyable that distracts her for now, you may have to be patient. Trust is an important facet of marriage - maybe the most important.
I noticed the marriage counselor in this blog keeps advising patience and perserverance, and I agree. Unless I am wrong this topic is only about 3 weeks old? It is difficult, you are hurting and wondering about the future, but it may take more patience than that... I will keep you and your wife in my prayers.
This has been going on since April. The postings started after my wife because my "housemate" and asked me to not even touch her. I ran out of ideas and was starting to consider divorce. She did talk to me about going to the salon yesterday, and I did complement her on her looks. Baby steps in the right direction is all I am asking for right now. If I believe her, it is the way she was treated, not the guys themselves, that she was missing. It's hard to be nice when she is so cold.
Since April - that is hard. Is that when the original fight was?
Again , since I don't know you well I don't want to give you advice, so I will just tell you how I feel and you can take that for what it is worth. (not as much as what your therapist or your wife has to say certainly!)
You are right to savor baby steps and to keep a positive, loving attitude. Don't let the world tell you how to respond - do what you feel is right and best for your marriage. We know the world does not respect the marriage commitment, but obviously you do. If you can stay patient and keep showing her your desire to reconcile and build a better relationship I believe you will make progress. You said she is noticing changes in you (empathy), but she has to believe they are permanent to build the trust again. Sometimes I don't feel very lovable, and when I see my husband loving me anyway, it really affirms his commitment to me and our relationship.
I hope it helps to know you are not the only one going through these growing pains. Hopefully when we come out of the other side our marriages will be stronger for having fought so hard for them! I pray for you daily now, and if you would do the same for my marriage I would appreciate it.
While you are taking those baby steps my friend, be very wary, and proactive against bad behavior. You will know it when you see it. Maybe all she needs is time, and that's okay, there is no hurry, but that doesn't make you a doormat. It should make you pay her closer attention, and a good listener for her vents, and rants, that can be helpful, and healthy. If you just listen.
Listening is important to know when to shut up, and don't try to fix things, and knowing the difference between ranting, venting, and bad behavior.
Pay close attention. By the way I have been married for 35 years, and can tell you paying attention is an absolute must, no matter how you feel.
It occurs to me that supporting her baseball playing, and know her friends, may be just what you need if you can forget jealousy, or resentments for her team mates showing her attention. You did before, why NOT now? If she loves it that much, why NOT?
Vmom1, thanks for your prayers. I'll pray that you have reconciliation in your marriage too. I believe in the power of time to heal wounds. I'm a history buff, so I know very well that with time enemies can become friends.
Talaniman, if I can get past my initial hurt, I may be able to enjoy baseball again. She still will text me when her favorite pitcher is throwing strikes. While I feel baseball for her is an obsession that she's thrown herself into because she's unhappy with our marriage, there was I time when I enjoyed the game along with her. I'm beginning to see her new "friends" not as potential suitors, but rather, as examples of courteous conversation. I hope that with time the their newness wears off and she can finally go out on a date with me.
Take this as a warning, waiting for something that may, or may not happen, is NOT what you do in a relationship, nor marriage, when its you being there to share your partners happiness (and sadness), is what counts.
Go back a reread your thread and see that you have already passed on many things you should have understood and shared with her to the detriment of you both. There was a lesson to be learned that NOT to assume you fixed things with words, and ignored the whole thing she was going through.
That's the disconnect you have now, and it will continue until you become actively involved, NOT with fixing things, but in SHARING the experience she goes through, good or bad. Its called loving support, and caring enough to just be there.
You are no different than any guy who breathes a sigh of relief when your female stops nagging or b1tching about one thing or another, because you think the issue is over, and fail to see that it is NOT. They may have stopped complaining because it's a waste of their time and tears to share with you. That's a disaster waiting to happen and all you have to do is pay attention, and give support as they deal, and cope with whatever is bothering them.
Heed my warning, and pay attention, and give time and effort to be there for her in what she does, not out of jealousy, or fear, or control, but because you know that's what she needs, and wants.
I'm sorry, I've written a lot of stuff, and maybe I'm as dense as my wife thinks I am. What specifically should I have understood and shared with her? I realize that calling her a b**** came from my resenting her not being happy with what I was able to provide, and that there was a certain dissatisfaction with her life that I should have addressed. Still, I don't think it's fair that now that I am making a whole-hearted 180 change in my approach to our marriage that she won't give me another chance. She used to be Catholic, and was raised Apostolic Christian, so why doesn't she accept the concepts of forgiveness and reconciliation?
It takes time, my friend, and your impatience for wanting her to understand your side of things is a killer. She can only see things through her own feelings of misery, and pain, which has been going on an awful long time. But of course you weren't paying attention to that then, and even now you ignore that fact. That's because you are seeing things through your own feelings.
Are we back to the concept of empathy again? Somebody is going in circles here, and its not me.
For once get out of self, to gain another perspective besides your own.
So, she continue to be hurt and angry with me. This will go on as long as she chooses, regardless of what I say or do. The only thing I can do is be there for her. I cannot reason with her or have her look at the consequences of what a divorce would have on us or the kids. All she knows right now is that she in not happy with me, but is happy with her friends. So, she will spend time with them to get away from me and her unhappiness. She will watch baseball games to distract her from her unhappiness. We are supposed to go to a game next month. Should I not go with her if she asks me to stay home?
No, nor should you press it. Sometimes its best if our partners work through there own stuff, in their own time, in their own way.
Tough when you have never done it before.
when its you being there to share your partners happiness (and sadness), is what counts.
That's the disconnect you have now, and it will continue until you become actively involved, NOT with fixing things, but in SHARING the experience she goes through, good or bad. Its called loving support, and caring enough to just be there.
I agree with talaniman here: Sometimes we shut up because we just feel its fruitless, not that we are over it. I just got an email (from an email series I suscribed to) about this very question - here is a piece of it...Quote:
Quote by Talaniman,
You are no different than any guy who breathes a sigh of relief when your female stops nagging or b1tching about one thing or another, because you think the issue is over, and fail to see that it is NOT. They may have stopped complaining because it's a waste of their time and tears to share with you. That's a disaster waiting to happen and all you have to do is pay attention, and give support as they deal, and cope with whatever is bothering them.
Everyday I get literally hundreds of emails from
people all over the world asking me their most pressing questions about their marriage.
People share with me their relationship stories that took years to unfold in a couple of short paragraphs. And then end with, "What should I
do?"
In most cases, it took years for their marriage to give birth to this question and the cause of their circumstances lies in the roots of their
marital and personal scripting. Nonetheless, they want an answer NOW and they want it in a reply email.
And you thought you had a tough job!
In the age of Fed Ex, high-speed internet, and 7-day diets, it's quite common for people to want to "microwave" their marriage to renewal. That will NEVER work.
When it comes to THINGS, you can be efficient. When it comes to relationships, there are no short cuts. It takes time.
Ironically, the search for a quick answer to your marital situation delays the process you will eventually have to go through. When it comes to
your marriage, slow is fast and fast is slow. In other words, if you try to go too fast and skip-over the necessary steps, you'll slow down
the whole process. But if you go slow and rebuild your marriage one step at a time...that's the fastest way.
It's a process, and it takes time. It took time to get this bad, it will take time to get better. My husband asked me last night "What is one thing I can do for you that will be right all the time?". That's a hard question, and I feel terrible that he thinks he is screwing up all the time, but the fact is he has not listened for so long he doesn't know where to start. I know I am part of this, and need to have more of a spirit of thankfulness, but we have gotten to a difficult place and only time, and small steps like the one he suggests, will get us back to a healthy relationship. I am only telling you this so you know you are not alone.
I don't agree it will go on as long as she chooses regardless of what you do or say. Being there for her, listening, will open doors. Is there some small thing you can do for her - not to get something from her, but that she just enjoys, that would help her see you are waiting patiently and want her companionship again? I had a friend whose husband brought her her nightly cup of tea every night for a year and they were barely speaking, but he did it no matter what. She finally saw his commitment and sincerety in this small act, and she began to open up to him.
It is hard, but you love her and love is worth it!
Keeping you in my prayers - thank you for doing the same.
I understand that it will take time. My concern is that my efforts are being undermined by her continuing to talk about and communicate with her new "friends". Again, she feels they treated her kindly, whereas she feels I have not. I admit that I've not treated her the way I did when we first dated. But, we have so many other issues to deal with than when we first dated. I've told her it bothers me when she continues to talk about these guys, but she doesn't seem to care. I've not given her an ultimatum because then I'm putting her on my timeline for resolving these issues. Ideally, she would realize she doesn't need these guys for emotional support, as I would become her emotional support. That is my goal, but it's hard to gauge progress when she continue to blame me for her unhappiness and won't give me another chance.
A baby step was her actually buying a book on marital relationship, I believe it's "Too Good to Leave, too Bad to Stay". Now, she just needs to read it and see how it applies to our marriage.
There you go again, telling her the best way to fix what you have neglected. You may not see her need for outside emotional support, but it's there, and it upsets you. Where was that emotional support before when she needed it? So why should she trust you for "emotional" support?
Then there is YOUR time line for fixes, and progress, when it should be define by you both, and your hoping she see YOUR way of thinking, and submit to it. From what you have written, these are the very things she is fighting against. Surely you can see her resistance to your plan, your way of thinking, and your "FIXES"!
Is there no way for you to see things except through your own eyes?? Empathy and patience are what you need, not ignoring what she is saying to you through her actions. All I see in your posts are jealousy and resentment. But no where have you taken responsibility for your own actions and tried to fix yourself.
Go ahead, give us the self improvement plan for YOU, and NOT HER.
Lord, I hate when people don't take advice. You want us to tell you what you want to hear? AIN'T
Going to happen.
Give her some space and let her breath. What I see is , ME, ME.
ME. You need to lighten up and get to know your wife. Stop with the questioning. Geeze
I didn't buy the book, she bought it after her sister (who knows mostly my side because my wife won't talk to her about this) recommended it. It's sitting on our coffee table, as is the book "For Better, the Science of a Good Marriage". I don't ask her about our relationship anymore. We are housemates. I have gone to several therapy sessions, and the advice given is to just listen and not to lecture to her. I don't talk to her about the marriage anymore. I take the kids to school in the AM, help them with their homework and get them out of the house on weekends. I go to the gym early in the AM focus on work most of the time. I am cordial and polite with my wife, always wishing her a good night, to which she never responds. I let her watch her baseball games in peace.
Well Kitkat 22, my wife it getting her breathing space. She went to see her "friend" tonight, the one she told that she was unhappy with her marriage. She says she is so unhappy and that she can't talk to any of her other friends but him. I read the first chapter in the book "For Better, the Science of a Good Marriage". I told her about a passage saying that the high expectations of emotional satisfaction makes marriage difficult. I acknowledged that I had not emotionally satisfied her, and that is why she has these new "friends". She is not interested in reconciling. She's actually thinking through the consequences of divorce. I suggested she not just thing of the immediate effects, but the effects 5 years from now on all of us, including the kids.
I'm really sorry. What are you going to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondoc
I am mentally preparing for a divorce. I told her that the old marriage is gone, and since she was that unhappy, that's a good thing. If we got back together it would be a new marriage, if we didn't then it would be no marriage. I will wait for her to file, but if she doesn't and things drag on into the new year without her making any effort on the marriage, then I will file. These weeks of limbo seem to have taken a toll on her, as she says she is constantly unhappy, while I've tried to focus on hope. Now, hope is fading fast, and I have to look at a future without my wife. I asked her if she thinks she would be happy if we divorced, and she wasn't sure.
I'm really sorry. It's better that you know. I would tell her if she was going to do it, there is no need to wait. It's putting undue pressure on you. She's already moved on and you know that. Get it over with and start rebuilding your life. I would insist she do it now. Good Luck and keep us posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondoc
My wife is having second thoughts about divorcing. She admitted she can't make a budget and worries (rightfully so) that I won't help her any more that what is ordered by the court. She became distraught thinking about me taking half the furniture, half the kitchen items, and the piano (since I'm the one who plays). Yet, she still want to go back to New York with her "friend" to see the Yankees. Rather than threatening divorce if she goes, I told her she needs to start respecting boundaries in our marriage. I also insisted on going to marriage counseling so that we don't make the same mistakes and risk getting hurt again. She said it would be painful recounting the times I hurt or disappointed her to another person. I said a professional can help her come to terms with those episodes.
I don't want the marriage I had, with the lack of boundaries and respect. Is it fair to get a divorce if she refuses marriage counseling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondoc
If she only wants you around so she can keep the furniture and the piano that's no reason to stay. If she refuses help or counseling.. you need to sever the ties and move on. By the tone of your response, I think you've already accepted it's over. Stick to your plans.
If she is reading books about the science of a good marriage, I would think that is a good sign. Can you offer to read it with her, meeting to discuss each chapter, what it meant to you, how it can help your marriage. I can tell you when my husband and I were going through this I stopped reading all of my relationship books because I had no hope and a lot of anger. I am now reading the "5 love languages" hoping to learn to better communicate with my husband, who has many of the same complaints as you: respect, appreciation...
Can you ask her to try counseling for 3 months? Then assess whether it helps, you can make changes, small ones to improve things?
It sounds like she is appreciating how you support her, and that is what you wanted. She sees now what she would lose without you, even if it is the house and furniture, lifestyle... isn't that what you have been claiming as your proof of love all this time? Now that she is afraid to lose it, you are offended that that is what she sees she gets from you? (sorry, some bitterness spilling over from my situation)
At least you see the need for counseling, are willing to make changes - I don't have that here... But can I say, you waffle each week from I love her I am willing to stick this out.. to.. if she doesn't _____ should I file for divorce.. Not the patience and consistency the blog has been talking about...
She may be afraid, but marriage counseling can't hurt. That's a major concession if she goes, so make an appointment, and go from there. This is where the empathy, and PATIENCE comes in. Forget divorce for now an keep an open mind.
Fair warning, many hidden intense emotions may surface on both sides. Empathy, and PATIENCE Say it ten times to yourself, 4 times a day, until this is resolved!!
I'm not in a hurry to end our marriage. It's just that I'm realizing that it won't get better unless she gets help. She has cried so much and has blamed me for so long that I'm not worried about what will come out in therapy. At some point I will have had enough and move on with my life. I'm not there right now though.
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