I read the book after my wife's affair.
I feel the book has helped me to recover after the affair.

Before and during the affair, my wife would describe be as the perfect husband and father, too. That is because I capitulated to her wishes. At the time, We were doing Church Home Group studying "Love, Sex & Long Lasting Relationship" practicing "Agape Love" - Loving her no matter what, whether she deserves or not. (note: I have arrived at the conclusion as a man, Agape Love should be reserved only for God and not your partner).

I don't believe you have read the book. My wife may not be Liberal on woman's rights issue and is Pro-Life, etc... but she is very strong willed. No man is going to put her in her place, actually she puts me in my place. That is who she is... Anyway, we listened to the Audiobook version of "Ways of a Superior Man" on our drive for vacation. She agreed with what the author said.

Mostly it is understanding Gender Roles. To the extreme, it is like the 1950's, where Men are Men and Women are Women. The Masculine is about "Ending, Finale, Stable, etc." The Feminine is about "Dancing with Life, Ever Flowing & Changing." Whereas Masculine tries to End a conversation with solutions, the Feminine is all about the interaction whether it is positive or negative. Example of how it worked in my life, I am watching TV after 3 hours of cleaning... She blocks the TV and complaints about so and so... (understanding the roles)... oh... she wants to have an interaction.. I smile and listen and not argue that I did the work and it is not up to her standards and just listen and affirmation. I am not arguing my solution or that her observation is wrong or anything else... I don't even have to re-clean... The point was interaction and steering it to a positive as the Leadership role. The Perfect Nice Guy would accept the negative conversation and go do what she ask. The 1950's Man wouldn't be cleaning.

You are thinking the book is about the 1950's roles. It is not. Those are the extremes of the Gender Roles. It is about the man being in touch with his feminine too, BUT NOT to let it dominate his Masculine. IT is the Mastering the balance, because the Feminine needs the Masculine in order to produce the passion and excitement. Even Gay relationship requires a masculine and feminine roles, two masculine gay will not have a good sexual relationship.

What I think the problem is: The extreme Femininization of Man by society. Howard Sterns calls it "The 9ussfication of Men in America". We are talking about movies and TVs portrayal of "Nice Guy" as the sought after by women. In Reality, a Woman needs a shoulder to lean on, someone to make her feel secure and stable and establish limits. Otherwise all those nooks and crannies will be filled too much with fluff. Without a man, She rely only on the strength of herself and it is pretty lonely and don't know why she is cheating. Yeah Nice Guys get cheated on.

Other subtle example would be:

Nice Guy: What is your favorite restaurant and we will go there.

Superior Man: Let's try this new restaurant, I know you have never been there before.



A woman will enjoy the interaction more of trying something new (even if the food was bad) than going to a predictably of the good food at the same old place.

It is this understanding and Mastering balance that creates a Superior Man... NOT Dominating over the other, nor Capitulating to the other. It is harder to do finding the balance than going to the extreme roles of the 1950's man and the Nice Guy.

From talking to a few men, I noticed it is the VERY Strong Willed Women married to Nice Guys that are having the wives cheating on them.

Maybe that is all I am focused on, since it was my situation.
The 1950's men are the ones cheating on their wives.
Haha... Nice Guys can't even imagine cheating on their wives..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SVImager

Other subtle example would be:

Nice Guy: What is your favorite restaurant and we will go there.

Superior Man: Let's try this new restaurant, I know you have never been there before.



A woman will enjoy the interaction more of trying something new (even if the food was bad) than going to a predictably of the good food at the same old place.

It is this understanding and Mastering balance that creates a Superior Man... NOT Dominating over the other, nor Capitulating to the other. It is harder to do finding the balance than going to the extreme roles of the 1950's man and the Nice Guy.

---

As far as I'm concerned, this is game playing. I don't want to have to wonder how to phrase everything I say in order to guarantee my partner will answer in a certain way and he feels the same. There is something to be said for truth and honesty in a relationship - I don't want to be controlled or played and my partner feels the same.

I also don't agree that "a woman will enjoy the interaction ... at the same old place" statement. You certainly cannot speak for all women. In fact, I'm not sure you can speak for any women.

As far as "In Reality, a Woman needs a shoulder to lean on, someone to make her feel secure and stable and establish limits. Otherwise all those nooks and crannies will be filled too much with fluff. Without a man, She rely only on the strength of herself and it is pretty lonely and don't know why she is cheating. Yeah Nice Guys get cheated on." What reality is this? Howard Stern reality? I put him in the same category as Judge Judy (when she's quoted) - good TV. Not much fact.

Lots of women "rely only" on themselves and get through life just fine. Believe it or not - again - I am a widow, I am not "pretty lonely" (although I do miss my late husband), I am surviving without a shoulder to lean on and I feel safe and secure and I do have self-imposed limits.

I have never known anyone who cheated and didn't know exactly why he/she did so. I interview people who have cheated, people who have been cheated on - none of them seem confused about the issues. Maybe they don't tell each other but they sure discuss it with me!

And, yes, whether you believe it or not, I read the book.

What is your wife's occupation? I am having difficulty with the concept that she is going along with any of this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

As far as I'm concerned, this is game playing. I don't want to have to wonder how to phrase everything I say in order to guarantee my partner will answer in a certain way and he feels the same. There is something to be said for truth and honesty in a relationship - I don't want to be controlled or played and my partner feels the same.

I also don't agree that "a woman will enjoy the interaction ... at the same old place" statement. You certainly cannot speak for all women. In fact, I'm not sure you can speak for any women.

And, yes, whether you believe it or not, I read the book.

---

I am sorry if I offend you... but that is a solution that is working for me.
It is keeping my family together after an affair.

It is keeping my two girls with two parents performing like a team in the house.
My approach is my approach. My understanding is my understanding.
This is what I see so far from my path that I am taken.

Forgive me for implying everyone has to see it this way... it is not the only way.
However, if a man is being cheated on by a very strong willed woman, I believe this is the circumstances behind what is being played out. The message is There is Hope. Usually the Nice Guy Husband do not want to end a marriage, they still want their wife back, imperfect and all.

I can see your aversion to "Playing a Game".
At First Like you, I was really pissed off about it being a Game and controlling and how shallow. In MUCH MORE ways than you, I was living in it. Yes, It goes against my Christian values of Honesty and Truth. To me, it was deceitful and it wasn't me.

Than when I realize the MAN who tried to steal my wife, circumvented me by being the Man in her life and playing the role for her... I have to fill the ROLE of being the MAN in her life. All those other things like 50/50 shared leadership, doing more than half my share of household chores, making breakfast & lunch & dinners, doing most of the laundry, etc... DON'T count as being a Man in her life. That is just being the "Perfect husband" to be cheated on without knowing the reason.

I am not talking for any women. I am talking to a man the "Perfect Husband" about my search and result and theory of why he is being cheated on. Your fight for Woman's Right is over, long ago. Now it is just beating up of Man to feebleness "I am what she ask for, why did she cheat on me?" You can't answer this question for this man, why did it happen. Because these roles are hard wired into us, We can try to reason it out, but we can't.

I am trying to learn something from you... what else do you have?
Yes, women do enjoy the interaction... do you have a better theory or idea.. or wait you didn't write a book... you are just interacting here for interacting sake (or call it arguing for arguing sake). And I am trying to end the conversation with the solution with this man.

Haha... I am in touch with my feminine side... so I like this interaction too.

You Girls know some of my background.

How about you girls,
Are you girls in a successful marriage without cheats??

Are you strong willed and your husband is perfect?

Do you know the pain and rage after being cheated on?
Do you how to forgive and than forgiving evvvvery single day because you can't forget?
Do you know what it means to give yourself so that your kids will continue to have a happy home with two happy parents?
Do you know Time actually help you forget & that's why it heals?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SVImager

Other subtle example would be:

Nice Guy: What is your favorite restaurant and we will go there.

Superior Man: Let's try this new restaurant, I know you have never been there before.



A woman will enjoy the interaction more of trying something new (even if the food was bad) than going to a predictably of the good food at the same old place.

It is this understanding and Mastering balance that creates a Superior Man... NOT Dominating over the other, nor Capitulating to the other. It is harder to do finding the balance than going to the extreme roles of the 1950's man and the Nice Guy.

---

Something you might want to keep in mind is that you are confusing being a partner and being a boss. A partner asks for his/her partner's input on what they as a couple will do. A boss informs his employee what to they are doing and the employee is expected to just deal with it or quit/be fired.

You are also confusing enjoying the interaction of being with someone you care about with being forced to deal with a bad experience just because you are with the person you care about. Good memories in a familiar place are worth a lot more than a new experience that wasn't needed or wanted being forced on a person.

It all boils down to a marriage is partnership that both individuals have to be invested in and willing to work with the other person. Communication goes both ways and both people have to be open to the needs and desires of the other person. No relationship can survive if one person makes all the decisions.

I certainly hope that the op and his wife are working together, now, to fix their problems.

I have been married 33 years, and my husband has never cheated because he knows I'd throw him off a cliff and shoot him on the way down.

There are many books on how to define feminine, masculine, and everything between. The key to a successful marriage, is not to assume anything. You may think that a certain role, or way of thinking, will bring out desired results, but what you are left with essentially are a lot of results that were not anticipated.

Thus the characteristics of an undefined species, that needs more common sense, and fewer road maps.

On any given day a person can change their mind on any one 'issue' or reaction to a topic or situation. Working through a problem, or solving a problem of a personal decision, is best left to simple old fashioned communication.

We cannot apply logic to anyone or anyone elses' behaviour, because that is the exclusive domain of the person that ownes it.

You can take responsibility all you like, but the bottom line is, change has to happen with the person who has, for example, decided to have an affair. Responding to a partner in a manner that shares the responsibility, simply lets the other person off the hook.

Rebuild- of course, if it is possible. Accept that your trusted partner has cheated on you, but re-writing the rule book, isn't going to help, nor is assuming some of the responsibility.

To decide to cheat, and follow through with a plan to do so, makes a person in my opinion, equal to a racoon in mating season. It's nature in its rawest form that disregards everything but the call to nature.

Not saying people are animlas, but, there are similarities in their behaviour.

Myself personally, I would never waste time on having a relationship with a racoon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SVImager

You Girls know some of my background.

How about you girls,
Are you girls in a successful marriage without cheats???

Are you strong willed and your husband is perfect?

Do you know the pain and rage after being cheated on?
Do you how to forgive and than forgiving evvvvery single day because you can't forget?
Do you know what it means to give yourself so that your kids will continue to have a happy home with two happy parents?
Do you know Time actually help you forget & that's why it heals?

---

You and I should meet in person, complete with plastic bop bats. Girls? You are calling us girls?

Anyway - yes, I was in a very successful marriage. He never cheated; I never cheated. I also consider an emotional connection to be cheating and that never happened, either.

Yes, I know the pain and rage. I investigate people who cheat, I follow them, I report to the injured spouse. It's happened to my friends. It's happened to members of my family. Maybe it's never first-hand happened to me so maybe the pain and rage are different because I'm a bystander. I realize that no one who has never been a widow knows what it's like to be a widow; maybe it's the same with cheating/being cheated on.

We had a very clear understanding - there would be no forgiving, there would be no forgetting. The marriage would be over. I don't think we needed those grounds rules to stay faithful (I know I didn't) but I sure knew the ground rules. If those had not been the ground rules we would have stayed single and dating.

And, frankly, I don't know that the sex act with another partner would have been the last straw had that happened. The lying (and an affair involves betrayal and lying) would have been the end. Could I have ever looked him in the face and lied to him? No. Could he have looked me in the face and lied to me? I very much doubt it.

Yes, I know how to forgive. I don't have a perfect life (believe it or not). Just because my husband(s) never cheated on me doesn't mean I've never been betrayed - and, yes, I've moved forward. As far as two happy children with two happy parents - sometimes these situations end up with an elephant in the room. I hope that's not the case with you.

And as far as time helping you forget and heal - maybe in your case. IOn my case (and we are talking different situatons) heal, yes. Forget, never.

And, yes, I'm strong willed. My husband was also strong willed. He was a professional, take-charge guy in the workplace but not at home. He never once attempted to control me nor did I attempt to control him. It worked because I was a person with a life, he was a person with a life, we made a life together.

And, perfect, sure he was perfect. All widows were married to perfect men! :)

And I have to say - when I first read what you posted I thought, "What a sexist jerk." Now that you've posted more I see where you're coming from and I likewise enjoy the exchange of ideas.

And I somewhat disagree with Jake - my husband, had he cheated, would have WISHED I pushed him off a cliff and shot him on the way down because it would have been easier and faster than the slow, painful death he would have suffered.

I called you "girls" because I didn't want to say "guys", in which I thought you might be offended.

The way I see it... you are going to be offended no matter what.
So, No more apologies from me.


HAHA!! I didn't read you whole post... so I (hehe) I will apologize...
I am sorry for calling you girls... but it was meant in terms of "Hey you guys" as in ( I hate this term) "y'all".

No problem - read my post. You may learn something, particularly if this is about exchanging thoughts and ideas.

And I'll ask the question again - what is your wife's profession?

Anyway, Back on Topic.

When my wife and I was in our Church Group Counseling, The Husband and Wife Counseling Team mentioned that something ODD has happened within the last 5 years.

Before, it was the wives trying to drag the husband into counseling... than there was a reversal... Now it is the husbands trying to drag the wives into counseling.

I have been a kind of junior psychologist trying to figure out why did it happen to me and why is this happening to others. My conclusion is as described. I am not blaming it on my wife, nor am I saying it was my fault. We are talking about having communications (even one of our counselor mentioned we had good communication skills with one another), having a faith, being sensitive to her needs, being a great dad, etc... What was wrong? This is the angle, my Point of View, my questions that pointed to the approach I take to the problem.

I don't think any of you Ladies (haha, not Girls) are coming from where I am from and that is OKAY... because other Point of Views are what I am missing.

So, your point of Woman Strength is where I started from right after college... After years, I don't find it valid for a good relationship because I have been there and done that and all it got me was arguments and wasted time with each other.

I am beginning to believe Strong Willed Women have a hard time with a Capitulating Husband. Because of the lost of Respect.

In Reference to your Game comment:
Like I said, it did sound like playing a game to me too.
So, what is the difference when a woman puts on make up and where very sexy current fashion and heels... and a man displays his Higher Values and not being Needy and displaying Confidence. She is displaying attraction of imagery in which that is what a man does visual. He is displaying attraction in ways of how he acts (confidence and goals) in which that is what a woman wants in a man.

I think this is the answer to why Passion for each other dies after a few years of marriage. So, yes it was a Game when you are trying to date someone... so why does it have to end after kids. So the wife buys some sexy stuff (which appeals visually for him) and what is the husband to do... wear some sexy stuff?? I would if it works but women don't operate on the visual. That is why you can have Big Belly Men at a basketball game displaying themselves and dancing with confidence and women are going crazy... haha, I don't know if this is true, but you don't see women with big hairy belly dancing at a basketball game and guys would be cheering for them.

Ok I have more questions than answers.
I don't know the answers, I am just on a path to seeking answers... this is only what I know so far.

Men are visual, Women are not.
Therefore, the game is played very differently from differing points of view.

She is a very successful Accountant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I also don't agree that "a woman will enjoy the interaction ... at the same old place" statement. You certainly cannot speak for all women. In fact, I'm not sure you can speak for any women.

As far as "In Reality, a Woman needs a shoulder to lean on, someone to make her feel secure and stable and establish limits. Otherwise all those nooks and crannies will be filled too much with fluff. Without a man, She rely only on the strength of herself and it is pretty lonely and don't know why she is cheating. Yeah Nice Guys get cheated on."

Lots of women "rely only" on themselves and get through life just fine. Believe it or not - again - I am a widow, I am not "pretty lonely" (although I do miss my late husband), I am surviving without a shoulder to lean on and I feel safe and secure and I do have self-imposed limits.

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OKAY... re-reading your post.

That is great for you.
You want to be independent and self-reliant and that is what you have.

I want a successful relationship, a relationship that last a lifetime (because that is all I can take).

That quote about "new restaurant" was paraphrase from the book and quoted from a study, basically saying it is better to take her to a new place with unknown expectation than that of an old place she already has a known expectation. It is meant for the Nice Guy not to do the same old, same old thinking that will ignite passsion in a marriage... it just gets boring.

So, I guess my approach to the question is still "Why did she Cheated?"
That statement you disagree with, doesn't apply to you nor any women.. because you wouldn't understand what the Guy is thinking... "I want to please her, where is her favorite restaurant to take her to". This thinking points to the direction of "Lack of excitement, doing the same old thing at the same old place."

So, I have to redefine... This stuff is for the Nice Guy... it might re-ignite your wife's passion again and gain Respect again.

What is your solution?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cat1864

Something you might want to keep in mind is that you are confusing being a partner and being a boss. A partner asks for his/her partner's input on what they as a couple will do. A boss informs his employee what to they are doing and the employee is expected to just deal with it or quit/be fired.

You are also confusing enjoying the interaction of being with someone you care about with being forced to deal with a bad experience just because you are with the person you care about. Good memories in a familiar place are worth a lot more than a new experience that wasn't needed or wanted being forced on a person.

It all boils down to a marriage is partnership that both individuals have to be invested in and willing to work with the other person. Communication goes both ways and both people have to be open to the needs and desires of the other person. No relationship can survive if one person makes all the decisions.

I certainly hope that the op and his wife are working together, now, to fix their problems.

---

I didn't say Boss. The man who cheated with my wife... that was his saying "You're fired" meaning divorcing his wife.

Partners (50/50)... that was where I started at... After 18 years of marriage, I find it.. there are more conflicts and arguments in this type of structure. I am not a Tyrant in any sense. But as a Husband and Father you have to be the Head of the household and step up to make some decisions.

My wife and I have a "Di-act" (Don't know the spelling)... but it is when we sit face to face from each other (no tables or anything), and we hold hands. One listens and the other talks for 1 or 2 minutes about feelings (no words like "Always" "Never" etc) and the one listening only has positive affirmations "yes"(no rolling eyes). Than flip roles.


"Good memories in a familiar place are worth a lot more than a new experience that wasn't needed or wanted being forced on a person. "
You are going on specifics in your frame of mind, Let me explain... "Hey, lets go to that new place, I've heard about without the kids..." She can say yes or no. Versus... "What restaurant do you want to go to?"
It is very subtle, but it does have an affect.
I am not talking about a special old place. I am talking about you being bored with going to the same old place. Bored with the same guy... Lost of the excitement in the marriage... Look, I hope you never lose that magic between you and your husband. I am talking to the guy who don't understand how they lost that passion and she doesn't know why either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

No problem - read my post. You may learn something, particularly if this is about exchanging thoughts and ideas.

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With your experience and job and interactions... why do women cheat?

The majority I talk to cheat for the attention - not for the sex.

See that is new to me... I never came across cheating for attention.

Is that the Man, Woman or Both?

Hey this happens.. see she was drunk so she definitely had some trouble or was sad.thats why she drank so much to get ridof her problems and she made a mistake.I hope she comes to you and says how much she loves you and will never do it again.try spending more time with her,share her feelings.I know you deserve an apology.see a counsellor.am sure it will be allright

If you read what the OP said, she said it was for the attention !

Both men and women seek the attention - and I'll throw this in, too. Find a woman is cheating and "most of the time" the man says, "It's over." That's his first, knee jerk reaction.

A woman, upon finding that the man is cheating, says, "What does she look like?"

My experience only - women cheat with men they know (in the workplace, in the neighborhood, in the circle of friends). Men tend to cheat with strangers. Yes, some cheat at the workplace but "most" cheat with strangers.

There are also - and I've posted this before - in my experience people I call serial cheaters vs one-time cheaters. A one-time person cheats, learns, carries the guilt, it never happens again. Serial cheaters enjoy the thrill of the chase and the "catch" and go on to cheat again and again and again.

One of the first things I ask people I date - and I am dating - is whether they have ever cheated. Some people lie. Some people tell the truth - and this I respect. If a person cheated on someone else, that doesn't mean he'll cheat on me. I also have NEVER knowingly (and I'm sure some slipped on by my radar) dated a married man OR a separated man. I don't want to be the other woman or the interim woman.

And, yes, my late husband and I were both divorced when we met and married.

This will shock you - I met him through friends, he asked me to marry him on our first date. I thought he was crazy. We were both in dating relationships which we both ended but it took a month. We began dating in mid-September. We married in very early December. Crazy? Yes. Did it work? Yes.

He never took me for granted and I never took him for granted. It wasn't all about gifts and big evenings. It was the little things on both sides.

So I have no answers about relationships - if anyone would give me "our" time frame I'd say they were crazy. Maybe we were but, as I said, it worked.

I believe you said your wife cheated with a neighbor/friend. How do you handle that? How does his wife handle that? Sounds like a constant reminder and I wonder how you work that out.