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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I am guessing things like how she feels he is in a mood when he isn't

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THAT IS IT!! Sorry if that wasn't clear earlier. See, this is a great example. There was some discussion, someone said, hey, this doesn't seem so "perfect" after all. What does he mean assumptions? He is telling her what to think...

I'm not at all, wow, by no means. I just want her to tell me at all WHAT she thinks, not me tell her HOW or WHAT to think.

You wrote what you did, rather than sitting there thinking what you were thinking and keeping it inside. She would have taken the words, noticed a few omission, noticed the focus of it being on her communication, which it is, but yes for sure, wow, I am a part of that and want to help! and then kept quiet. She'd internalize that negative sort of impression, and go with it. The next times she'd notice things felt similar to that, she'd avoid even asking the question or making the statement in the first place because the last time she did, I said this negative thing and must have been in a bad mood.

I am human and need the feedback. And I want it! Again, it is sort of like playing charades with just the opening statement but no or very little feedback along the way saying "colder, warmer" and then pow, now she's ready to talk because she is so majorly eaten up inside that she has to act, not discuss and try to figure it out.

I figured that you meant she is projecting her negative feelings onto you must be the one with the bad vibes and then walking around all day miserable rather than coming out and asking do you mind, or what do you feel if I take a class or join Curbs?
She needs to realize she can communicate her feelings and wants and needs to you.
So far she has probably been busy taking care of cleaning and taking care of the kids and now it has hit her that she is in a spot she didn't realize was coming and assumes she can't try doing things different like telling you I need a life, I need to get out and do things. So she continues as she has been and has more time to let it build up in her that she wants something to fill the void her kids filled when they were younger and needed her more,

By assumption, I mean, in referring to my original post, she'll assume I am in a bad mood or grumpy when I'm not. I spend most of every day at total peace. I'm happy! She doesn't inquire, and therefore doesn't know.

Beyond that, too, she'll take a few examples of when she rightly or wrongly thought I did get mad or upset about something similar to what she has in mind to talk about, and then won't say anything because she just knows for sure I'd get mad and be all upset, when she never knew really that while I might have begrudgingly mowed the yard or something, I wasn't out fuming. I actually have a hard time staying mad, and don't typically get mad.
She takes that assumption that I would have gotten mad, and that then is her reality. "He got mad (maybe so, probably not, probably more that I don't enjoy say fixing the broken light fixture but I'm not mad!!!) before in a situation like this, and I mentioned it once. I'll just not say anything again, or not even say it at all to begin with, because I just know he'll be all mad about it." That assumption is what she lets become a reality. It's an alternate history that plays out in her head. What would have really happened never happens because she won't say anything because she has assumed...

I hope that is more clear. I do appreciate your input for sure. Thanks

Many women do tend to do that. You need to be more reassuring I suppose. Like when she asks you to do something maybe try finding a way to sound more enthusiast. Encourage her to communicate more. Or if she starts assuming ask her what makes you assume that? I don't know but communication is important.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I figured that you meant she is projecting her negative feelings onto you must be the one with the bad vibes and then walking around all day miserable rather than coming out and asking do you mind, or what do you feel if I take a class or join Curbs?
She needs to realize she can communicate her feelings and wants and needs to you.
So far she has probably been busy taking care of cleaning and taking care of the kids and now it has hit her that she is in a spot she didn't realize was coming and assumes she can't try doing things different like telling you I need a life, I need to get out and do things. So she continues as she has been and has more time to let it build up in her that she wants something to fill the void her kids filled when they were younger and needed her more,

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That is more and more hitting the spot, your observations are. Everyone's input and interaction is getting it fine tuned. This also is how she sees it... This isn't me putting words in her mouth either. I mean, we had that detailed talk yesterday for a couple of hours. It is so very hard for her to do that, especially now because I'm obviously upset, and she is, too.

One thing, too, to note that I think I did earlier, is that I am the only person she interacts with who might have a difference of opinion with her beyond say the kids thinking they aren't tired!! Or which restaurant has the best cheesecake when she talks with friends, you know? She hasn't had that for a very very long time. The last time she had it was maybe when she worked, which now has been 12 years, or when she was with her ex boyfriend before me, who did in fact tell her often to stop nagging him about everything. She told me that when we were going out, and newly married, that she was afraid to say things more than once because she didn't want to nag me and he used to always get irritated and tell her to cut out the nagging.

So, in an area that is difficult for an introverted communicator, the idea of voicing an opinion, letting her feelings be known when there might be other than say 90%+ agreement with her without any friction whatsoever (I don't mean arguments, just a discussion) is something she does only with me. She therefore has had very little practice in having herself be heard. I do think if she worked, especially in a creative field, or on project with a few people who might have differing opinions, this trait would have had some practice. It would be different for an extrovert who is doing nothing for herself and taking care of the kids. I am sure I'd hear it when she wanted me to hop to something or she needed to blow off some steam!! I don't. I ask when it seems she has something to say or isn't happy, but I don't hear because she doesn't say.

I do need to help her, for sure. I can, too, and will do anything she says to help!!

She is use to the fact that she wasn't communicating and now she feels a lonely empty place and she feels you should automatically have the right words and the right reactions and notice when she feels down and make the first move to comfort her.
Basically she could be feeling something like a mid life crisis and she wants you to comfort her without her having to come to you. Like the 'you must not love me because you did not notice... '

Does she have a sense of humor?
What makes her angry?
What is the most outward show of emotion has she exhibited? Details please.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Many women do tend to do that. You need to be more reassuring I suppose. Like when she asks you to do something maybe try finding a way to sound more enthusiast. Encourage her to communicate more. Or if she starts assuming ask her what makes you assume that? I don't know but communication is important.

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Were you eavesdropping on our discussion yesterday evening?? Wow! I did tell her that, too, and that I can do that. To her, what for me are things I see as easy, little changes I can make to help her a lot, are huge and seem so big that she thinks I won't be able to change a little thing here and there.

I even suggested a couple of things. If she tells me to do something like take out the garbage, and I use the garbage can, too, :) , so I notice eventually without being told to take it out, but if she tells me and I space it off, OK, forget it. It's minor. For her, though, that is one more source where I am just possibly going to get mad so she doesn't say, "hey, now, it stinks and I do enough around here, damnit!!" or even obviously in a nicer way. One thing I suggested is if it is something that is one of those things that is important, that if not done would be a big thing and she doesn't want to let it get to her saying it twice or three times because she doesn't want that "confrontation" that doesn't happen because it either wouldn't have been there or maybe it would but doesn't happen because she doesn't say anything, she can say: "I really want you to take the car in to get looked at." rather than saying "Can you take the car in to get looked at, do you think? Do you have time?"

The other is, and it may seem artificial, but would help a ton I think, if she thinks I'm in a mood, whether I am or not, she can tell me nonverbally so we don't even have to discuss it, at least not then, and it could be done with people around or without others around. She could say something to me, anything, not on the topic, as she touches me on the elbow... I told her, OK, no discussing it now, I'll poker face it and chill out if I was upset, and if I wasn't upset I won't react negatively. I'll "go to the bathroom" or "go check something in the pantry", take a deep breath, or 10, relax, think about my bodylanguage that could have sent out a negative vibe, think of something funny and smile, then walk back in. I want to give her immediate feedback, too, when I walk back in by say, winking if she was right, "I was grumpy, sorry." and that being said by just winking. Maybe I could verbalize it and say, "oh, cutie, do you remember that one movie I was going to record on the tivo? What was the name? No, it didn't come on yet." something with the word no to say, no, I wasn't grumpy.

We can discuss these things later, when she is ready, but at least we can both get that immediate feedback, she can see when maybe I look like I'm in a mood but I'm not, and she can communicate it without the apprehension there would be conflict. If I am or am not in a mood, I'll leave and adjust my demeanor either way. As concerns her wanting to not nag, she can tag that extra word on, or start it with that phrase, "I really want you to...." Now, if she says it every single time she really wants me to get milk for the kids to help get their lunch ready, or she really wants me to turn the light on... you know what I mean, don't over use it, but add that little phrase. Hey, you got my attention, obviously, but now I have feedback. I am listening and want to hear!!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Does she have a sense of humor?
What makes her angry?
What is the most outward show of emotion has she exhibited? Details please.

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She does have a sense of humor. I like it most when we can even carry on our interactions just joking around. Sometimes she isn't in a mood to get up for that, you know? She isn't the painfully quiet type of introvert, if that makes sense. She smiles, doesn't avert her glance, you know?

It's hard to say what makes her angry, because she doesn't get really angry typically... I'm thinking of some examples. I'd say the thing that can get her irritated is if she is having alone time, which she likes to have in the morning before the kids get up, and she is interrupted, and that can even be me saying hi too long before she has woken up all the way!! That's OK, I understand. But as for what would cause her to lead into something with, "you know, you really have to x,y, z because I'm tired of it." there is nothing at least that she will say, no.

As for an outward show of emotion, one in a negative situation was her reaction to her saying something she shouldn't have, and it was disrespectful and very hurtful, to me and our kids. We have two little girls. She had bought her best friend's little boy some red crocks. I was going to wrap the present. Our older daughter, 8 at the time, loves wrapping presents. Our younger one, almost 7 at the time, also wanted to help. I said, rather than wrapping, what about using a bow? They thought it was great. We couldn't find any premade bows, and I can't tie them well, but there was thin ribbon, the sort you could tie a bow with then scrape with a pair of scissors. I and my girls cut some pieces of gold ribbon, which looked quite nice against the red shoes. They each helped tie a ribbon on a shoe. It looked cute. I laughed, though, and told them he and his brother don't like girly stuff, and he might not like that. They thought it was funny. I said, let's bring a snake to give him when he "unwraps" the present, that is, unties the bows. I said if they think it's OK, the shoes looked great, but make sure to pull those bows off and don't tease him if he doesn't like it. Help him put the little rubber snake between the holes like I had in my pair of crocks I used as houseshoes at the time. To move forward, I brought the girls to the playground where Jenn met up with her best friend, and her two boys were there, the sort of little boys who think pink is gross and kissing is disgusting, you know? He took the lid off the not wrapped box, saw the shoes, and had a look on his face like, "oh, wow, I don't like that!" I said to the girls, hey, take those off, he doesn't like them, give him the... " as I reached for the box to help show him it was the wrapping, not a pair of girly shoes or anything, and to give him the snake. What ended up happening was my wife said, "you idiots" wouldn't look at us, and proceeded to appologize for us being stupid and all of this. I kept my cool, explained, but she was still mad. Her friend was silent on the matter. We didn't get to the snake. We got in the car in a little bit to leave, and I asked her what she called us. I really cannot stand for any display that is disrespectful or that would tell our kids they are dumb or anything of the sort. She lied and said she hadn't said anything, or she didn't remember... She did end up saying she did say something. She said we should have known better. Ok, he did react negatively but we also didn't make sure to have the chance to show him it's a loosely tied bow on his present, not big girly bows attached to his shoes or anything. She didn't appologize, but rather said we shouldn't have done it and should have known better. I did get very mad, and told her not to talk to me or the kids like that, that it wasn't acceptable, ever. There was yelling. There was no name calling, I don't do that, and she doesn't, except right then at the park in front of her friend and the kids. She did end up saying she also doesn't like being talked to the way I was talking to her even thought it is because she did something that was an extreme, very mean. Sometimes I think if you are wronged or disrespected you have to be able to say, hey, you crossed the line and I am really, really mad.

As for a positive strong display of emotion, it is usually more of a good mood, an extra hug, an extra big smile. She has noticed sometimes when I do things she didn't tell me to and wouldn't have expected, like say cleaning the bathroom and putting away the laundry, cleaning up the dishes when she isn't looking. That turns into a smile, a hug. A better mood.

I haven't seen any super happy, jump up and down emotion, though. That happens rarely for anyone I guess, but she does react positively with emotion, and it's usually a demonstration of caring and happiness.

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Originally Posted by confusedbyitall

Were you eavesdropping on our discussion yesterday evening??? Wow! I did tell her that, too, and that I can do that. To her, what for me are things I see as easy, little changes I can make to help her a lot, are huge and seem so big that she thinks I won't be able to change a little thing here and there.

I even suggested a couple of things. If she tells me to do something like take out the garbage, and I use the garbage can, too, :) , so I notice eventually without being told to take it out, but if she tells me and I space it off, ok, forget it. It's minor. For her, though, that is one more source where I am just possibly going to get mad so she doesn't say, "hey, now, it stinks and I do enough around here, damnit!!" or even obviously in a nicer way. One thing I suggested is if it is something that is one of those things that is important, that if not done would be a big thing and she doesn't want to let it get to her saying it twice or three times because she doesn't want that "confrontation" that doesn't happen because it either wouldn't have been there or maybe it would but doesn't happen because she doesn't say anything, she can say: "I really want you to take the car in to get looked at." rather than saying "Can you take the car in to get looked at, do you think? Do you have time?"

The other is, and it may seem artificial, but would help a ton I think, if she thinks I'm in a mood, whether I am or not, she can tell me nonverbally so we don't even have to discuss it, at least not then, and it could be done with people around or without others around. She could say something to me, anything, not on the topic, as she touches me on the elbow... I told her, ok, no discussing it now, I'll poker face it and chill out if I was upset, and if I wasn't upset I won't react negatively. I'll "go to the bathroom" or "go check something in the pantry", take a deep breath, or 10, relax, think about my bodylanguage that could have sent out a negative vibe, think of something funny and smile, then walk back in. I want to give her immediate feedback, too, when I walk back in by say, winking if she was right, "I was grumpy, sorry." and that being said by just winking. Maybe I could verbalize it and say, "oh, cutie, do you remember that one movie I was going to record on the tivo? What was the name? No, it didn't come on yet." something with the word no to say, no, I wasn't grumpy.

We can discuss these things later, when she is ready, but at least we can both get that immediate feedback, she can see when maybe I look like I'm in a mood but I'm not, and she can communicate it without the apprehension there would be conflict. If I am or am not in a mood, I'll leave and adjust my demeanor either way. As concerns her wanting to not nag, she can tag that extra word on, or start it with that phrase, "I really want you to...." Now, if she says it every single time she really wants me to get milk for the kids to help get their lunch ready, or she really wants me to turn the light on... you know what I mean, don't over use it, but add that little phrase. Hey, you got my attention, obviously, but now I have feedback. I am listening and want to hear!!!

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I know I'm alone in this but I think you are picking the relationship - and her - to pieces.

It appears to me that you think her failure to communicate is causing all these problems. I don't know why she stopped communicating, if she ever did. Maybe - because she is not a great communicator - she doesn't want to discuss this every night for several hours. Maybe she feels cornered. Maybe she feels she's been ignored, her needs not met, for too long.

I don't you see you taking any blame in this. It sounds like your rules on how this relationship should work without much consideration for her comfort level.

And, again, I know I'm in the minority but I have been in relationships that ended because he/I simply wasn't in love with the other person any more. Not taking a moral stand - divorce/children = a rough road. But maybe she just doesn't love you any more for any number of reasons.

I am good at talking about it once, apologizing if there's a need - I am NOT good at lectures and advice... and advice... and advice and "you should have said this instead of that." Why, because you think so?

Maybe she's feeling badgered. I think you can talk a subject to death.

A lot of times too a simple hug is enough to make a wife get over negative feelings.
Like when she asks you to mow the lawn give her a hug and ask her if she can fix you a drink for when you are almost done. Or when she is washing the dishes a lot of women like a guy to walk up behind them and give them a hug [sounds a little corny but some women do like that]. A lot of times just a hug can melt any negative vibes
Put some spontaneousness in the relationship and go out of your way a little.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I know I'm alone in this but I think you are picking the relationship - and her - to pieces.

It appears to me that you think her failure to communicate is causing all these problems. I don't know why she stopped communicating, if she ever did. Maybe - because she is not a great communicator - she doesn't want to discuss this every night for several hours. Maybe she feels cornered. Maybe she feels she's been ignored, her needs not met, for too long.

I don't you see you taking any blame in this. It sounds like your rules on how this relationship should work without much consideration for her comfort level.

And, again, I know I'm in the minority but I have been in relationships that ended because he/I simply wasn't in love with the other person any more. Not taking a moral stand - divorce/children = a rough road. But maybe she just doesn't love you any more for any number of reasons.

I am good at talking about it once, apologizing if there's a need - I am NOT good at lectures and advice ... and advice ... and advice and "you should have said this instead of that." Why, because you think so?

Maybe she's feeling badgered. I think you can talk a subject to death.

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This condensed version is an effort to stop us from going from discussion on Saturday night when she talked for the first time to a lawyer post haste. I am talking with you guys cause you are helping get some perspective, and checking whether what I'm suggesting isn't off base.

Is it worth going to get help, are these ideas about helping be a better person for her to communicate worth it? Or should I just flush it all down the toilet and say, yeah, it's because she isn't communicating because she is tired of me, so to hell with it, throw it all away. You would be way off on that one. Since she was little she has been painfully shy. She has opened up some. She still doesn't say what's on her mind.

I agree there could be just that possibility, it could be that she just isn't in love. It can't be explained, oh well. It isn't. Some of it could be that, but so you hit a little bit of a rough patch=> ditch it all? You are in a rut=> bail out and leave? You got to be kidding me.

I don't badger her. We don't talk about the ways in which she's all wrong.

She isn't talking. She never has. It is her communication style, and I'm OK with that, except that I didn't know it ate her up inside.

I don't tell her what to think, how, what to do, you got that all 100% wrong.

My interaction on here to this detail is because actually a few people have had great input and have helped me check what I was thinking, think about other things, and try to figure out how I can help her be comfortable and willing to communicate. She wants to leave me and it's like a ton of bricks hit me out of nowhere. It hit her dad and step mom out of nowhere, and they have the same take on her communication.

Talk a subject to death? Read with open eyes. Every little post and interaction has helped lead a little further to some input for me to consider, and it sounds too like Talaniman is getting to something from this information. I love her so much, and no, don't badger her. I don't talk about how she's all wrong. I tell her how she's all right.

You are way off on the comfort level thing and how the relationship should work. I will do ANYTHING, anything, if only I had the input from her, to allow her to speak her mind, be heard. Our other items, how to raise the kids, where they go to school, what they do for activities, everything, is totally fine. It is give and take.

The only thing I've picked at, for purposes of discovery of what the hell I can do better and how I can help her given the way she is, not that it is right or wrong, mind you, is how I can help her be exactly that, more comfortable and able to speak her mind.

I have body language, I must, sometimes, or vocal expression somehow, that puts her ill at ease. That is given she is a person with what is in her head and in her past experiences. I can do things differently, and want to, if only she helps me know what those things are. I'm asking, not telling here, how to make her more comfortable.

If after reading this you think I pick at her and badger her and tell her what to think and how to do this and that then I don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

A lot of times too a simple hug is enough to make a wife get over negative feelings.
Like when she asks you to mow the lawn give her a hug and ask her if she can fix you a drink for when you are almost done. Or when she is washing the dishes a lot of women like a guy to walk up behind them and give them a hug [sounds a little corny but some women do like that]. A lot of times just a hug can melt any negative vibes
Put some spontaneousness in the relationship and go out of your way a little.

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Thank you for those ideas... I think you are right, those things could help, for sure!

How old are you both, and have you ever been separated for an extended length of time??

Promise last questions.

You mentioned her father being in the field of communication, and that she has a masters in speech language pathology. I find it interesting that with so much knowledge about communication, she seems to have a harder time with it than most. Perhaps something about the amount of communication knowledge she has gotten since she was young, and then went to school and learned about, has somehow affected her? I just think it's kind of ironic.
Perhaps, as was mentioned earlier, a marriage counselor would be in order. Maybe there is some exercises you can do at home together, like you have 15 seconds to say anything you want to say, good or bad, but always respectful, never hurtful. Maybe if there is a prescribed time she can express her emotions (like while you are playing this "game"), she will be more comfortable doing it.
It seems as if you are bending over backwards trying to come up with some intricate sophisticated way to communicate, and maybe a counselor could simplify it. What's more, maybe that is the connection with your wife's knowledge of communication and her own communication skills. Perhaps she knows SO much about it that she views it as highly complex and something that is a chore to do as a result.
If there were an easy way about this, like I could just tell you what to do and you could do it and everything would be better, I would tell her to say what she means and mean what she says. It's okay to have emotions and express them. It's OKAY that you get grumpy, you shouldn't have to hide that. If she can learn to be okay with it too, and know that it doesn't mean you love her any less (because like I said, you have good and bad times regardless of if you're in a relationship or not), and maybe get a little grumpy herself sometimes, that is all you really need. Maybe this relationship NEEDS more conflict. Maybe she needs to get angry and make you sleep on the couch every once in a while, and maybe you need to get angry and go tinker in the garage for an hour once in a blue moon too. That way, you get to share the experience of making up, which you have been missing out on!

:-D

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by confusedbyitall

If after reading this you think I pick at her and badger her and tell her what to think and how to do this and that then I don't know what to say.

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You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. I said right up front that I thought this was less about her going for counselling and more about couples counselling. It appears you pretty much ignored that at that time.

Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, fine. Keep walking. Ignore me. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

I personally would be a lot more comfortable if SHE would actually post HER thoughts. You said she's reading the answers. I'd be curious to know what her perception of you, her and the marriage is.

I would be very uncomfortable with the "I'm going away by myself for a few days, on a retreat, to think things over." I think that's the first step to walking out the door. But, again, you pick the advice you think is right for you. I'm not there, I haven't spoken with her.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

How old are you both, and have you ever been seperated for an extended lenght of time????

Promise last questions.

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We are 39. We were separated, not as in marital break up, but due to work and a storm at our house where we used to live, quite a few times, say 5, for a week to a few weeks over the years. I also used to have a huge commute for a year so I was gone a few nights a week typically.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick and chose which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, find. Keep walking. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

So keep handling things the way you are and let us know how this works out.

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Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

It wasn't that I disagree with your input, when it was input, but rather your assertions about harping on her and badgering her and on and on are just far removed from how it is.

The one bit I guess, no, for sure, I disagree with is the idea that if, and I don't want to misquote you, if you just aren't in love anymore it's OK to bail. What is not being in love anymore? I've had times where I thought, man, I wish she'd show me more attention, some affection, not sex, but hugs, something, show interest in what I'm doing, tell me she thinks it's good I make sure to get exercise or that I don't go out with the guys after work as much as other husbands do, or whatever. It left me feeling less loved than I thought I could be, and feeling negative, but it works itself out.

Anyway, my very firm statements were to clarify that this beating a subject to death is detailed interaction with everyone who has very graciously given their time to the effort to help me have ideas on saving what I really do appreciate. Some of your conclusions, or statements, were based on nothing that exist... This just happened Saturday night. I'm desperate to put all the effort into this I can. Don't take it the wrong way.

Thanks again for your input, I do value it.

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Originally Posted by confusedbyitall

Anyway, my very firm statements were to clarify that this beating a subject to death is detailed interaction with everyone who has very graciously given their time to the effort to help me have ideas on saving what I really do appreciate. Some of your conclusions, or statements, were based on nothing that exist... This just happened Saturday night. I'm desperate to put all the effort into this I can. Don't take it the wrong way.

Thanks again for your input, I do value it.

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My thinking is that you have posted in this same thread 38 times in a 22 hour period (if I am right - ?) This seems excessive to me, made me think possibly you were badgering her. I would not be happy (were I her) with the blow-by-blow details of our every discussion on a public message board.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I have nothing else to contribute anyway.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick and choose which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. I said right up front that I thought this was less about her going for counselling and more about couples counselling. It appears you pretty much ignored that at that time.

Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, fine. Keep walking. Ignore me. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

I personally would be a lot more comfortable if SHE would actually post HER thoughts. You said she's reading the answers. I'd be curious to know what her perception of you, her and the marriage is.

I would be very uncomfortable with the "I'm going away by myself for a few days, on a retreat, to think things over." I think that's the first step to walking out the door. But, again, you pick the advice you think is right for you. I'm not there, I haven't spoken with her.

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There are two details here...

I stated I might, would like to, show her these responses so please be respectful, as in, please if you have some cornball thing to say, don't, this is serious. I haven't yet, and haven't said she is sitting here reading this. I might have her read it, or not.

I think as someone said it sounds like I'm trying for some intricate ways to so on and so forth. That is his perception. I think the wordiness of my writing maybe gave that impression, that is it overcumbersome... But, it got a response from him that I do truly value. Thanks. That is one example where I'm saying I do like this detail. It's for me to try to be able to help make it good for her, not for her to slosh through this to somehow "fix" herself. She doesn't need to be fixed, just to feel she can be open, etc. I love the input of all of this, the little ideas about giving her a hug if maybe it's a situation I feel could have caused her to be timid about asking me to do something or telling me to stop doing something. That's great.

The other detail is, I did not say I'm going away to a retreat, or asking her to to go get herself squared away or something. This would be intensive couples counseling to work on what both she and I have talked about and agree that are things, mostly communication, that would be helpful to us as a couple and each as individuals of this couple. With that in mind, I have looked online with almost no luck. I am going to dial around to therapists here to see whether they know of any, but I would think going and getting some professional help, not an hour at a time then back to dealing with daily stuff, but away, together, for a few days to a week, could be very very good for us.