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Originally Posted by Altenweg

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.

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I'm not controlling her every action! All I want is a little logic, stability, and sanity! Yes, I am her partner, and as such she shouldn't be doing things that are so destructive (like ruin our credit and completely obliterate any stability we had)! What I'm hearing from the board is that no matter how foolish or rash her decisions are, I should just go along with it because anything less is being controlling? Do you hear yourselves? If she jumped off a cliff because that was HER wish, should I go along with it? Well, in a financial and emotional sense, SHE HAS jumped off a cliff... I'm not going to follow her to the rocks below... I'll move on before I destroy my life and the children's lives. I truly believe if you were here in my shoes you'd be offering very different advice. I have to agree with you on the degrees; especially in Arkansas... they couldn't care less and will pay minimum wage whether you have a Ph.D. or a GED at times... I knew a Ph.D. who delivered auto parts because the local employers just didn't care... don't think you all realize how downtrodden this part of the country is... you're likely living comfortable lives financially, and don't need to worry about what I am and you're not seeing the misery and poverty that I do on a daily basis...


Controlling every action? How in the hell am I doing that? Because I'd like for her to keep the job that she WANTED to have? She told me a few years ago that she was tired of merely staying at home with the children, and that she wanted to get out and work so she could be more than "just a mother." Ok, I said... now, I'm CONTROLLING because the income we've relied on is being thrown out the window? What if your spouse stopped working and left you in dire financial straits? My water was shut off a few weeks ago... how about taking cold showers in Canada because your husband left you and cut your income in half WHILE leaving you with all the bills? How in the hell am I being controlling? Heck, I just want to take a warm shower and buy groceries... I don't have the luxury of being controlling.

Do you hear yourself? Read over what you've written, read it with an open mind, from the outside looking in.

You have to wonder why everyone is giving you the same advice. Could it be that they see this situation more clearly than you?

It's often very hard to deal with something when you're living it, it's easier to see things clearly when you're just a spectator.

You gave us the info, we based our opinions on what you've said.

You should be talking to your wife, your partner, the women you claim to love about all of this. Instead you're hear lamenting about all your problems and poo pooing on all her issues. Do you do that while you're talking to her? She has some very real concerns, but you won't hear them, you're too busy trying to get things to go the way you want them.

Until you see that, there's nothing anyone can do to help you or your marriage.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Your choice, make your family happy, or, lose your family.............again. Whats so hard about that?

Sorry you don't like to be called a bad listener, but you are, and the proof is in this thread, where you have argued everyone down for the last 20 some pages.

I can just imagine what you do with your wife, and its telling when you can't make love to your woman unless the laundry is done. Thats you though, highly stubborn, and unreasonable, and unbending. Trust me, thats a recipe for being alone, and not a sign of being able to care and share, but control.

There will always be conflicts, and clashes with your position, as again these post should have shown you that your position is hard to swallow and we all sympathize with your wife.

If you were a good a listener, as you are an arguer of your position, your wife wouldn't have left you, just because you'd be working together to solve your issues, thru caring and compromise.

If you remain rigid in your demands, and positions, and are unwilling to compromise, kiss your family good bye.

If I didn't have empathy for you, and your family, I would be ignoring your a$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Being called a lousy listener is one thing. You went beyond that and essentially accused me of being a p**ck; that was not in any way professional or helpful.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Do you hear yourself? Read over what you've written, read it with an open mind, from the outside looking in.

You have to wonder why everyone is giving you the same advice. Could it be that they see this situation more clearly than you?

It's often very hard to deal with something when you're living it, it's easier to see things clearly when you're just a spectator.

You gave us the info, we based our opinions on what you've said.

You should be talking to your wife, your partner, the women you claim to love about all of this. Instead you're hear lamenting about all your problems and poo pooing on all her issues. Do you do that while you're talking to her? She has some very real concerns, but you won't hear them, you're too busy trying to get things to go the way you want them.

Until you see that, there's nothing anyone can do to help you or your marriage.

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No, I'm busy trying to be RESPONSIBLE and keep the lights on, the water running, and food on the table.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.

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And what kind of compromise would you suggest? At this point, the financial damage has been done; she'll have to work until at least August because we're now VERY far behind and it will take months to fix this.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

Being called a lousy listener is one thing. You went beyond that and essentially accused me of being a p**ck; that was not in any way professional or helpful.

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And once again you aren't listening. Where in Tal's post did he call you a pr#ck? Where? If you see it then point it out to me.

You came here for advice, we didn't track you down and force our opinions down your throat.

It's up to you to choose where your life is heading, no one else can do it for you. You've drawn the line in the sand, obviously you have no intention of changing anything, so I have to wonder why you're here to begin with.

Did you come here hoping for sympathy? Did you come here hoping that people would agree with you, tell you that you're right? That's not what we do here, we offer advice, we don't sugarcoat things and you can either accept that advice, implement it, or move on until you find something that works for you. If we thought you were right we'd tell you, but we don't and you can't accept that.

Perhaps it's time to get counselling, after all, it's not really fair to your wife to be talking about all your problems without her having a chance to tell her side. A counsellor can sit down with both of you and get to the root of your problems. You do have to be willing to listen though, otherwise there's no point in doing it at all.

I wish you luck, I truly hope that you and your wife find a way to make things work, I just don't think you're going to find that way here, unless you start to listen, really listen, and stop taking things as a personal attack on you, because they're not.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I've been reading this thread since GBN's first post and am seeing his "big picture" and her "details" -- his "forest" and her "trees," his umbrella of security protecting him from the elements and her not worried about raindrops splashing on her unprotected head. I could go on and on with comparisons....

I'm married to someone like GBN. Security is everything. How we save money or spend it is in almost every sentence he speaks. I know why my husband is that way and have learned to roll with it, to use it to the family's advantage. I wonder if there is something in the OP's past that causes him to focus on security to the point that it makes him appear so egocentric, so self-involved. Realizing why he is this way (and it's not a bad thing, but just comes out badly) might help him as he and his wife try to come to some agreement.

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I don't want my family to live in poverty, and I personally don't like "drama." Yes, I do like security because through my experiences I've learned just how fast and hard life can hit you and ruin your life, along with those around you. Therefore, I like to think of myself as providing security and stability for my family. Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women. For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives! Emotional issues can be worked on, but it's impossible to counsel your way through credit card debt, cold showers, and homelessness. I appreciate your post and tone. I don't just want people to agree with me inasmuch as I'd appreciate a more helpful tone. Some of these posts, in my opinion, are not meant to be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

And once again you aren't listening. Where in Tal's post did he call you a pr#ck? Where? If you see it then point it out to me.

You came here for advice, we didn't track you down and force our opinions down your throat.

It's up to you to choose where your life is heading, no one else can do it for you. You've drawn the line in the sand, obviously you have no intention of changing anything, so I have to wonder why you're here to begin with.

Did you come here hoping for sympathy? Did you come here hoping that people would agree with you, tell you that you're right? That's not what we do here, we offer advice, we don't sugarcoat things and you can either accept that advice, implement it, or move on until you find something that works for you. If we thought you were right we'd tell you, but we don't and you can't accept that.

Perhaps it's time to get counselling, after all, it's not really fair to your wife to be talking about all your problems without her having a chance to tell her side. A counsellor can sit down with both of you and get to the root of your problems. You do have to be willing to listen though, otherwise there's no point in doing it at all.

I wish you luck, I truly hope that you and your wife find a way to make things work, I just don't think you're going to find that way here, unless you start to listen, really listen, and stop taking things as a personal attack on you, because they're not.

Good luck.

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Here is the post I found offensive.

"I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards."

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.

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The advice I'm reading is that I should quit my job and move without any means to support a family just because she decided to up and leave and pull our children out of school. I'm not leaving the security of my job, especially considering that she's already coming back. My family would be in a much worse situation than they are now. Children need things like food, clothing, and shelter... I'd likely be forced on welfare because the economy is so bad. Therefore, I'm not going to just up and leave because of this, and I think it's unfair to say I'm controlling because I want a little security and stability.

I really having nothing more to say. I've said my piece and now it's up to you.

I wish you luck and hope things work out.

Good bye.

For once, ask your wife what she wants, and how she wants you to change in your marriage. See what answer she gives you.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

I don't want my family to live in poverty, and I personally don't like "drama." Yes, I do like security because through my experiences I've learned just how fast and hard life can hit you and ruin your life, along with those around you. Therefore, I like to think of myself as providing security and stability for my family. Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women. For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives! Emotional issues can be worked on, but it's impossible to counsel your way through credit card debt, cold showers, and homelessness. I appreciate your post and tone. I don't just want people to agree with me inasmuch as I'd appreciate a more helpful tone. Some of these posts, in my opinion, are not meant to be helpful.

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Don't forget -- I'm a counselor too, and am trying to pick apart the tangled fishing line.

Maybe another thing to consider is that you are male and she is female. John Gray made a ton of money on that dichotomy with his Mars-Venus thing. You are saying that there are problems to be solved, and she is saying "Nuts to the problems! Love me." You say your concerns are the mechanics, "the machinery of our lives," and refer to her concerns as the emotional stuff that can be dealt with later. Unfortunately for you, she wants to deal with the emotional stuff NOW, not later.

How can both sets of needs be satisfied so that the family becomes whole again?

GreatBigNow,
If you find our various tones offensive, it's probably because we often find yours offensive. We tell you that, but you seem oblivious to the effect you have on other people and also closed to looking at things from any point of view but your own. Or that's the way it seems to us. As a group, I would say the people here have all different levels of education and economic background (though all smart!). This is an anonymous board, which means most of us don't know one another. And yet despite our different backgrounds, we are all pretty much telling you the same things. You insist all of us are wrong and are not giving you the "help" you came looking for. What would that help look like, if I may ask?

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

I personally don't like "drama."

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This, for example, is a surprising statement given your posts here. You give the impression of being very much interested in dramatizing your situation and your wife's failings, as well as those of her parents. Your intense reactions to minor annoyances (like a messy house) all bespeak an addiction to drama.

Plus, news flash: you were living in a house with three kids and two working parents and a dysfunctional marriage. Not surprising the housework didn't get number one priority. Real life isn't Father Knows Best.

Don't sweat the small stuff. The marriage was way more important than the shoes on the floor, as you should be starting to recognize now, but seem not to be.

A friend of mine once said to me, "I can always tell when a couple are going to get divorced because they let the garden go." And that's just what people can see from the outside.

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Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women.

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I personally found this extremely offensive. There is no support for your implication that women as a group are irresponsible. Furthermore, even if it were true, which it is not, it would be irrelevant. It's you and your wife, not some average of all women and all men. And from the perspective of at least some of us, it's you who have been irresponsible.

As far as I can tell from what you've said so far, the job your wife quit was one you really needed, to help you pay off your loans, which you apparently feel ill equipped to do on your own.

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For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives!

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Yeah, well. It's too bad you didn't deal with those pesky emotional needs when you could have, back when "the machinery" (aka, your wife) was still working. This is like arguing that you can't put oil in the engine after it's seized and that you want the engine to start turning over again so you can lube it. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to start up. It seized because you didn't put oil in when you could have. You should have thought of all this a year ago.

The train's left the station, to mix in still another metaphor.

GBN--I'm betting what the REAL issue here is, is this:

You see your jobs, home, bills, security as the necessary part of a life together, and everything else the is the "emotional crap" that is the gravy to make things "happy".

Your wife sees love, respect, communication and fun together as the necessary parts of a life together, and the stabily, money, etc is the gravy that makes things "smoother".

Neither of you is necessarily wrong--but if you don't figure out how to meet in the middle, you're BOTH going to be sitting and wondering how the heck your marriage failed, and blaming it on each other.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Neither of you is necessarily wrong--but if you don't figure out how to meet in the middle, you're BOTH going to be sitting and wondering how the heck your marriage failed, and blaming it on each other.

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Exactly what I've been saying. She has to listen to him too -- and he has the added burden of saying his side of things in a way that will appeal to HER. He will have to ooze empathy.

The wife and kids come home this weekend. She's going to start an LPN program (nursing) that will only take three semesters and starting pay is $12 locally just out of college... for this area that is a decent wage when coupled with my income as well. If she goes this summer it will be even faster and she could be working by next summer... pay range for LPN is $13-21 an hour depending on location & experience, and this will really help our family... we're going to work on everything else as well, but for myself I have to make sure everyone's fed and the lights are on before we do anything else... happy and broke don't exactly go together, no matter what ANYONE says.

To most of you, I send my thanks. To some of you, be assured that I tried to take your comments with an open mind, tried being the key word.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

The wife and kids come home this weekend. She's going to start an LPN program (nursing) that will only take three semesters and starting pay is $12 locally just out of college...for this area that is a decent wage when coupled with my income as well. If she goes this summer it will be even faster and she could be working by next summer....pay range for LPN is $13-21 an hour depending on location & experience, and this will really help our family...we're going to work on everything else as well, but for myself I have to make sure everyone's fed and the lights are on before we do anything else...happy and broke don't exactly go together, no matter what ANYONE says.

To most of you, I send my thanks. To some of you, be assured that I tried to take your comments with an open mind, tried being the key word.

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Aaaah, a happy ending! I'm very pleased and will keep you in my thoughts. Please "report in" occasionally to let us kniow how it's going.

Whether you liked our advice or not, I truly hope things work well with you and your family.

Good Luck, and please keep us updated.

Well, it's been about two weeks... overall, things are OK. She has applied for the LPN program at a local community college because it only takes three semesters and pays about 80% of the wages of a local entry-level RN (which would take 4 years at my university). We're both willing to deal with that for 3 semesters, and she'll be done by the end of summer next year. She can attend school for her RN part-time, and there is a program that allows for an LPN to RN which only takes a year. So, there it is. Right now she's staying at home and caring for the children, while I go to work. We're broke beyond belief, and are applying for food stamps... this sucks financially but if she will finish then our income will double or possibly more after some experience. Even in our small town LPN's start at 12 an hour (straight out of school with no experience), and it will supplement my 15 an hour quite nicely. I think it's difficult for many to understand just how little Arkansas jobs pay; the only place I've seen similar poverty is in the slums of Mexico, but we're in the U.S.! She can't graduate soon enough, In my opinion.

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Originally Posted by greatbignow

I think it's difficult for many to understand just how little Arkansas jobs pay; the only place I've seen similar poverty is in the slums of Mexico, but we're in the U.S.!!!!!!! She can't graduate soon enough, IMHO.

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It's where retired people with good pensions go to live (MHome) or where families have lived for generations and have no wish to leave. I totally understand (lived for six years in the hills of NC).

Always be in touch with her emotional needs. That's where she, being the female she is, is coming from. I'll eat oatmeal and dry toast but give me hugs and affirmations.