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There can't be "too much" circumstantial evidence! That's like saying Mozart had "too many" notes in his operas. (Line from AMADEUS)). Doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What was the "right" path the prosecution should have gone down?
Hah! Alty and I were talking about that same thing last night. A book or a made for t.v movie and she will be living large. I totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma1999
I agree, I thought it was because there wasn't enough circumstantial evidence.Quote:
There can't be "too much" circumstantial evidence! That's like saying Mozart had "too many" notes in his operas. (Line from AMADEUS)). Doesn't make sense.
They absolutely DID prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is that the jury was not instructed on what "reasonable doubt" means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Please advise where the prosecution "messed up".
Greenie for Athos!Quote:
They absolutely DID prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is that the jury was not instructed on what "reasonable doubt" means.
Please advise where the prosecution "messed up".
I agree, the prosecution did prove their case, the jury just didn't understand what "reasonable" doubt means.
There was not reasonable doubt! Casey is guilty, beyond a doubt.
Thanks - greenie for you too after reading your take on this in earlier threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
There's another thread going on with the same players
Current events - "Casey Anthony Goes Free"
Let me rephrase that. There was too much evidence that was circumstantial. None of it could be linked to Casey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
If any body out there took on this role then shame on them. I just couldn't be paid enough money to even think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma1999
I agree, I wouldn't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by 88sunflower
Unfortunately though, someone would.
With all due respect, I don't think you understand what "circumstantial evidence" is. In this case, ALL the evidence was circumstantial. There was no "smoking gun". Nobody got up on the witness stand and said, "There she is. She killed Caylee. I saw her".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Trials are commonly conducted without direct evidence. Circumstantial can be just as damning - and sometimes more so since eyewitnesses (a form of direct) are notoriously unreliable. True, this case had no direct evidence, but the circumstances overwhelmingly point to guilt. OVERWHELMINGLY.
The inferences of the events point to one person - and one person only. The mother- Casey Anthony. I can't rehash the whole case here, but Altenweg has given a good summary (others have posted other damning details) of the evidence.
As I've said before, the jury misunderstood its role. Like you, they may have been looking for that smoking gun, and, not finding it, voted for acquittal.
I thought our legal system didn't decide cases on inferences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Then you thought wrong. Circumstantial evidence, by definition, REQUIRES inferences and assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You're not alone. Most people don't understand what circumstantial evidence is - after several decades of TV Perry Mason stuff where the conclusion is always super-dramatic. Nor do most people understand what "reasonable doubt" means.
That's why it's critical for a Judge to explain these concepts to every sitting jury.
And people who were put in jail for life for murders it was inferred they had done are now able to use DNA (hard) evidence to exonerate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I'm sorry but this is silly if you're presenting a case against circumstantial evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Of course, DNA can be used to exonerate someone EVEN IF THEY WERE CONVICTED BY DIRECT EVIDENCE.
Circumstantial or direct - it doesn't matter. New evidence is new evidence, regardless.
No offense, but I've given you what the law states. You can do your own research on these topics by calling your local library (that was a joke).
I apologize. You're right; I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Okay, WG did admit that she didn't follow the trial, so, to make it clear, I'll try my best to explain it in a post. Maybe then WG will see why we believe what we believe, and the majority of the world believes.
Two and a half your old girl named Caylee. Her mom is Casey. Casey and Caylee live with George and Cindy, Casey's parents. George and Cindy not only provide for Casey and Caylee, they're pretty much the only ones that care for the child.
Casey says she has a job. She gets up and goes to "work" every day and Universal studios. Thing is, she doesn't work there, hasn't in years, but she lies to her parents and says she does.
Casey also makes up a nanny by the name of Zanny. George and Cindy never meet her, but hear about her often. When they're not available to care for Caylee, Casey takes her to Zanny. One problem. Zanny doesn't exist any more then the job Casey has.
One day Casey and Caylee disappear from the family home. George and Cindy try to contact Casey, they miss Caylee, the want to see her. No go.
31 days go by. Finally Casey is found. After much deliberation Casey finally tells Cindy that Caylee has been kidnapped by Zanny, the no existent nanny. Well, Cindy doesn't know this. Cindy calls 911. The third call she finally convinces the operator to take her seriously. The most damning part of the call, they found Casey's car, and it smells like a dead body was in the trunk.
In the 31 days that Caylee was missing, Casey claims she was looking for her. Well, if entering a hot body contest at a bar 4 days after your 2 year old goes missing is looking, then I guess that's what she was doing. Of course, at this point Caylee was already dead, and per Casey's attorney, Casey knew her daughter was dead, because she claims the baby drowned in the pool.
Fast forward. For 3 years, while awaiting trial, Casey never changes her story. Caylee was kidnapped by Zanny the nanny. The smell in the car (which two dogs trained to detect human decomposition hit on) is just a coincidence. The hair, belonging to Caylee, with post mortem banding on the root, just a coincidence. The 84 visits to a site on how to make chloroform, just a coincidence. The other searches, some of which were "how to break someone's neck", just a coincidence. But I digress.
Six months after Caylee goes missing, her remains are found, right by the Anthony home. She was dumped in the woods, where much of the locals dump their garbage. She was placed in two garbage bags, and a laundry bag. A syringe with chloroform was found near her remains, and there was duct tape over her mouth and her nose.
Side note, chloroform was also detected in the trunk of Casey's car.
Well, the trial comes about. All of a sudden, after 3 years in jail claiming her daughter was kidnapped, Casey says that Caylee drowned in the pool, but, because she was molested as a child, she lied, because that's what she does. Her father found the body, told Casey that she would be found guilty of being a bad mom, and her father disposed of the body. Her dad, a cop!
So, we're to believe that her dad, George, a former cop, not only didn't call the police about an accidental drowning, but put duct tape over his beloved grand daughters mouth, put her in trash bags and a laundry bag, and then threw her away like trash, but, he also let his daughter sit in jail for 3 years, face the death penalty, over something he knew was an accident and not punishable by law. Ya, that makes sense. :(
So please, tell me, where is there a shadow of a doubt, because I'm not seeing it, and I know I missed some of the details which would make this entire case even more damning.
Casey Anthony is guilty, there is no reasonable doubt. No, there's no video, no DNA or fingerprints (the dump site was under water for months), and no eye witness. But I can tell you one thing, if this child died in the pool, why the chloroform, duct tape, no call to police, hiding for 31 days, post mortem hair found in the trunk of the car, cadaver dogs hitting on the car... etc. etc. Casey admits to knowing when Caylee died. So, you have to believe one of the two stories. Either Caylee drowned in the pool, and somehow ended up thrown away like trash with duct tape and chloroform, or she was murdered.
Which story makes more sense?
Well done, Altenweg. In fact, superbly done!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I know that took you time and effort to focus your thoughts, get things straight time-wise, and still manage to make a complex case understandable for those who didn't see it on the TV.
I, for one, appreciate very much what you did.
Most importantly, far beyond any greenie anyone could give here, you've given some justice to a little innocent girl who did not deserve the treatment she received from her mother.
The world weeps for that precious child.
Very well put Alty!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Many greenies for you!
If only words could give this precious child peace. I wish I could do that just by typing, but it can't be done. Thank you for your words, they brought tears to my eyes. I'm still in shock over all of this. Casey should be rotting in jail, instead, she'll likely be free, having served 3 years for the charges she was found guilty of, lying to police, 4 counts. Each of those carries a 1 year jail term. The most she's looking at is 1 year more in jail, but the more likely is that she'll walk with time served. :(Quote:
Most importantly, far beyond any greenie anyone could give here, you've given some justice to a little innocent girl who did not deserve the treatment she received from her mother.
The world weeps for that precious child.
That precious beautiful child will never see her 3rd birthday, she'll never go to school, she'll never fall in love, never walk down the aisle, never have children of her own.
Her mother on the other hand, will be free, will likely make millions off book deals and movie deals. More importantly, her mother got away with murder. It's not right.
I weep over this. It haunts me. This isn't right. This is about one thing, and one thing only. A child. A child that deserved to live. A child that deserved better then she got.
Instead, her body was left to rot in the woods, with duct tape over her mouth and nose, put in trash bags, a laundry bag, chloroform in her little body, tossed away like garbage. This isn't an accident! This was murder, and the murderer got away with it.
It's just not right. It pains me. The only thing I can do is hug my two children, let them know how much I love them, and hope that evil never finds them. But then, how can it not? Evil has been set free. Justice failed. :(
Thanks Enigma. I wish I could say all I want to say. It's so hard to get it all out in writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma1999
The only thing left to say is this, RIP Caylee. Your time on this Earth was short, but you made an impact. I wish that we had found justice for you sweet girl, but it's not to be. My only hope now is that you went quickly, that you didn't suffer, that you had no fear, just peace. I can only hope that peace is what you have now. In tears I write this. I wish with all my heart that you could have had better. I wish with all my heart that you had been mine. Your life would have meant life, and love unconditional. I can't give you that, I can only pray that you find peace.
RIP Caylee.
And just to add to what Alty has said.
I really hope that Caylee has no idea what happened. I hope that she doesn't know or remember that her Mother, Casey, murdered her only Daughter.
That's my hope too. It's bad enough that we know that she did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma1999
Something I want to add.
Many of you know that our dog Indy is old, 16 years, and that I've been wanting to put him down for a while. He can barely walk, he has trouble breathing, etc. etc. He's just really old.
Well, hubbies cousin just started a new business, he's cremating pets. So I called him, asked how much he charged. He said that for us, family, it would be free, and we'd get the ashes back in an urn.
So I told him that we're likely going to do this in the next month, I just have to save the money, make the appointment, and go through with it. This is over a year of hubby and I going back and forth, hoping not to make the decision.
Well, hubbies cousin is a hunter, and a pet lover. He's one of those men that will take his sick dog into the woods, and put a bullet in his brain. Quick, painless, done.
So, he offered to do that with Indy. My response. NO! I can't. First, I want to be there with him, I want to hold him, I want his last memories to be of me and hubby loving him, being there with him until the end. I don't want his last image to be of a shotgun aimed at his head, no loved ones around. I can't be there for that. I couldn't watch that. It would kill me.
Having said that, and knowing that Indy would likely not even see the shotgun, or notice that R and I aren't there, and the fact that this is my dog, and yes, he's my family, someone I love, but, he's not my child, he's my dog, I can only hope that a child, a human being, a young person that knows mommy, sees and hears everything, doesn't know that her mother ended her life. I only hope she went to sleep and doesn't know anything else.
Let's all hope that at least to Caylee, Casey is innocent, even though we all know differently. Let's hope that Caylee died not knowing what a monster her mother is.
Check out this story. I'm not sure if this is appropriate to post in this thread, but it totally made me think about all of this.
Obviously the media had no influence on Casey's trial. If it had, she'd rot in jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by southamerica
I know, this article was on June 24th... I wonder how the defense attorney feels now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I've been extremely upset over this Caylee thing. And it only reminds me that murders go unjustified all the time. We aren't omniscient, but we should be.
And we need more vigilantes.
IT's a horrible story of murder and how the justice system has failed this one little girl. You can say there is nothing wrong with the American justice system, but where is the justice for this one little girl? This little girl who's mother has mocked her lost innocence. There is nothing right or fair about this. I am a thousand miles away and my heart breaks for this poor little girl. The questions we all want answered but will never have. If no Zanny existed, then where was poor Caylee? I can only imagine he neglect and sadness this little girl endured for her short two years of life. Casey had many options, murder should not have even crossed her mind.
I am sick at heart over this misguided justice system we have in this country. People have been convicted on less than this case presented. Still wondering what happened. I was not in the courtroom listening each day so I could not tell who said what. Could not force myself to watch this case on Court TV as it infuriated me so much. And now her mom goes essentially free. I am sure that there will be a book written by a good author like Ann Rule which will help me understand what happened and who dropped the ball.
It makes all the other would be murders think they can get away with murdering their family members.
What has this country come to?
{Sadly shakes her head}
Well, Casey gets out Next Sunday. She already has one offer of 1 million dollars to appear in an interview. She'll be rich.
So, what lesson have we taught the public? If you want to become a millionaire, murder your child, find a jury of 12 people that can't see the truth, when 2/3 of the country thinks you're guilty, be found innocent, then live free of the child that you didn't want, and rake in the dough.
The new American way. Why work when killing your child will make you rich? :( :( :(
She was not found to be innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I think along with some of the media, that the jury was wanting or expecting something out of CSI and other TV crime shows, they show how you can take a 20 year old dead body and find DNA, fingerprints and more.
Of course the same CSI rep, is the person in the field, then drives to the lab with the evidence and even goes to testify in court.
She was found guilty of lying to police. But that's the only thing she was found guilty of.Quote:
She was not found to be innocent.
She was found not guilty of murdering her child. Not guilty is innocent. Even if the jury doesn't believe she was completely innocent, they still set her free by delivering a not guilty verdict.
She serves another week and a day in jail. Not a just sentence for killing your child, IMO.
Not really, not guilty does not mean they are innocent, it only means there was not enough evidence to convict.
This difference is normally noted in legal study.
Juror #3 was interviewed on TV, she said that in order to convict they expected to here a motive, how the child was killed, and where. She wanted witnesses to the crime, DNA, fingerprints.Quote:
I think along with some of the media, that the jury was wanting or expecting something out of CSI and other TV crime shows, they show how you can take a 20 year old dead body and find DNA, fingerprints and more.
Of course the same CSI rep, is the person in the field, then drives to the lab with the evidence and even goes to testify in court.
Thank you television.
This baby was thrown away like trash in an area that was underwater for months. All trace evidence was washed away. Crimes rarely have witnesses, and witness testimony is not desirable in a case because witnesses are extremely unreliable.
I guess I have just one question for the jury. If the child wasn't murdered, what other reasonable scenario can they come up with that explains all the evidence? If they can't think of one, well, where's the reasonable doubt?
The way I look at it is Casey is free. She's walking away on 4 counts of lying to police with time served and time off for good behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I agree, not guilty doesn't mean innocent, but then, if it isn't an innocent verdict, then where is the justice?
Plus most likely there will be no further police investigation, the police will still assume she did it and not really look for anyone else.
You KNOW absolutely that Casey killed Caylee, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Of course I don't. I wasn't there.Quote:
You KNOW absolutely that Casey killed Caylee, right?
The evidence in the case is overwhelming. No other scenario makes sense. If you actually view all the evidence, the behavior of Casey during the 31 days her daughter was supposedly missing (when she was in fact dead, lying in the woods and Casey knew that), the partying, the duct tape, the 84 visits to a site on how to make chloroform, the chloroform found at the scene, the duct tape over the babies mouth and nose, the heart sticker put on the duct tape, body stuffed in two garbage bags and a laundry bag, the smell of decomposition found in the trunk of Casey's car which two separate cadaver dogs hit on, the searches for how to break a neck, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I have to ask, what other reasonable scenario is there?
The medical examiner was asked how many accidental drownings go unreported (Casey's defense, after sitting in jail for 3 years, insisting that her daughter was kidnapped by a made up person), and the ME said that 100% of accidental drownings are reported.
That's more reliable then birth control.
So, we're to believe that Casey sat in jail for 3 years, claimed her daughter was kidnapped, when she actually drowned in the pool?
So why the duct tape, the chloroform, the garbage bags, the laundry bag, dumping the body like trash in a wooded area used by locals to dump trash, close to her home? Why hide it for 31 days while living it up?
WG, if you have another scenario to explain how this child died, I'd love to hear it.
Neither were the jurors. And the prosecution could not even give conclusive evidence that Caylee had been killed by a human hand. She may have really drowned accidentally. There was no DNA evidence, no eyewitness, no confession, no body to autopsy. That's why all seventeen jurors (12 + the 5 alternates) to a person, with tears in their eyes, had to return a verdict of "not guilty" -- "not proven" -- "I don't know."Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
The jurors did not hear commentators ruminate, did not read the newspapers, did not even talk with each other or others involved in the trial during the trial. It was only during deliberation that they finally were able to discuss the case. All seventeen had no choice but to return a verdict of "not guilty."
WG, there was an autopsy. The cause of death couldn't be determined. But, the Medical Examiner did say that she has never seen an accidental drowning go unreported. When asked on the stand how many accidental drownings are reported, she said 100%. That doesn't leave any wiggle room.Quote:
Neither were the jurors. And the prosecution could not even give conclusive evidence that Caylee had been killed by a human hand. She may have really drowned accidentally. There was no DNA evidence, no eyewitness, no confession, no body to autopsy. That's why all seventeen jurors (12 + the 5 alternates) to a person, with tears in their eyes, had to return a verdict of "not guilty" -- "not proven" -- "I don't know."
The jurors did not hear commentators ruminate, did not read the newspapers, did not even talk with each other or others involved in the trial during the trial. It was only during deliberation that they finally were able to discuss the case. All seventeen had no choice but to return a verdict of "not guilty."
That same M.E. said that never in her many years as a medical examiner has she seen an accidental drowning where the child's mouth and nose were duct taped, the baby was wrapped in a blanket, stuffed into two garbage bags, a laundry bag, and then tossed away like garbage.
When asked for her professional opinion, she said that she wouldn't hesitate in saying that the cause of death was murder. So, who murdered her if not Casey?
A strand of Caylee's hair was found in the trunk of Casey's car. It had post mortem banding on it. In other words, that hair came from a dead body.
When you said that the jurors weren't there when Casey died, I have to ask. Is that what it would take? Is that the evidence needed? If so, then many murders will walk free, because there's very rarely a witness to the crime.
This is real life, not TV. You won't be lucky and get a video of the person killing the other person. There isn't always DNA. There aren't always fingerprints. There's very rarely witnesses. This is real life, and the case was damning, and still she was found not guilty of murder.
My thought, the jury wasn't instructed on what reasonable doubt is, because there is no reasonable doubt. The jury expected the video, the DNA, the fingerprints, etc. etc. They didn't understand that that's not the norm, that the way the body was placed, the fact that that area was under water for months, made all that evidence impossible to gather.
The presence of chloroform, a decomposing body, in the trunk of Casey's car, the bags, all the things I've mentioned over and over again. That's clear evidence to murder. It's not at all conducive to an accident.
So I ask again, if not murder, what's a reasonable scenario to what happened.
Remember, George was at work, as was Cindy. Casey was alone with Caylee. So, how did this baby die and end up tossed away like trash in the woods?
Thus the verdict. It doesn't matter a hill of beans what the ME says or thinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
And maybe Caylee drowned accidentally and Casey panicked. Remember, she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.Quote:
A strand of Caylee's hair was found in the trunk of Casey's car. It had post mortem banding on it. In other words, that hair came from a dead body.
Again, she may have drowned accidentally and Casey panicked.Quote:
So, how did this baby die and end up tossed away like trash in the woods?
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