Ask Me Help Desk - Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Mesiah

Page 1 of 2

Show %1$s post(s) from this question on one page

Ask Me Help Desk (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum.php)

- Judaism (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=426)

- - Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Mesiah (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=4999)

Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Mesiah

My question is purely analytical in nature--I am not trying to condemn, convert, persuade in any way. I say this because I see a lot of emotional outbursts concerning religion on this page. My question is simply this: I know that the Mesiah according to the Jewish writings had to meet specific prophecies. I know that learned Jews reject the fact the Jesus did not meet these. Which of the prophecies were not met? Also, if any one could direct me to a site which would list all the prophecies there were for the Jewish Mesiah, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Mes

Go here

http://solospirit.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...2&m=1446005213

Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Mes

The link I cited above is no longer in existence.

What you're basically asking is the difference between Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism teaches that every person is responsible for their own actions and that the Torah is the source that G-d has given mankind to guide us through life. Judaism is a purely monotheistic faith. Being Jewish is defined as being born Jewish and/or converting to Judaism. Judaism does not actively seek converts. Judaism teaches that for a person to be qualified as Messiah, that individual must and will fulfill the criteria which is to bring about G-d's universal kingdom of justice and peace on earth.

Christianity teaches that no matter the actions of a person, that you must accept Jesus whom is fractionalized as one-third divine. Christianity emphasis original sin and an embodied spirit (an angel) called Satan with power to rebel against the Creator and cause destruction upon humanity. Christianity has taught the expected return of Jesus going on some two thousand years after his death. Christianity regularly missionized.

Bobby

Quote:

Originally Posted by BABRAM

What you're basically asking is the difference between Judaism and Christianity.

Christianity teaches that no matter the actions of a person, that you must accept Jesus whom is fractionalized as one-third divine. Christianity emphasis original sin and an embodied spirit (an angel) called Satan with power to rebel against the Creator and cause destruction upon humanity. Christianity has taught the expected return of Jesus going on some two thousand years after his death. Christianity regularly missionized.

Bobby

Bobby you have just wriiten nonsense. Jesus is not one third devine but 100% God

Perhaps this will help you to see that the Jews should not reject Jesus

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." And verse 44 notes, "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and the prophets and the psalms, concerning me."
Jesus Christ himself said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me" (John 5:46, NKJV). Likewise, Christ's disciples taught that He fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (e.g. Acts 3:18; 17:2-3; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

Prophecies about the Messiah

A prophet like unto Moses.

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him'." (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, NKJV).

Like Moses, the Messiah would be a leader, a prophet, a lawgiver, a deliverer, a teacher, a priest, an anointed one, a mediator, a human and one of God's chosen people (a Jew) performing the role of intermediary between God and man—speaking the words of God—and like Moses, the Messiah would offer himself to die for the sins of the people. Both Moses and Jesus performed many miracles validating their message. As infants, both their lives were threatened by evil kings, and both were supernaturally protected from harm. Both spent their early years in Egypt. Both taught new truths from God. Both cured lepers (Num 12:10-15; Matt. 8:2-3) and confronted demonic powers. Both were initially doubted in their roles by their siblings. Moses lifted the brazen serpent to heal all his people who had faith; Jesus was lifted on the cross to heal all who would have faith in Him. Moses appointed 70 elders to rule Israel (Num. 11:16-17); Jesus appointed 70 disciples to teach the nations (Luke 10:1, 17). And there are many other parallels between the lives of Moses and Jesus.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Noah's son, Shem. Noah said, "Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant (Gen. 9:26-27).
Noah associated Shem especially with the worship of Jehovah, recognizing the dominantly spiritual motivations of Shem and thus implying that God's promised Deliverer would ultimately come from Shem.
…)

More specifically, he would be a descendant of Shem named Abraham ( Genesis 22:18; 12; 17; 22). Fulfilled: See Christ's genealogy in Matthew 1.
he would be a descendant of Abraham's son, Isaac, not Ishmael (Gen. 17; 21). Fulfilled:

More specifically, he would be a descendant of Isaac's son, Jacob, not Esau (Gen. 28; 35:10-12; Num. 24:17). Fulfilled:
More specifically, he would be a descendant of Judah, not of the other eleven brothers of Jacob. Fulfilled: More specifically, he would be a descendant of the family of Jesse in the tribe of Benjamin (Isaiah 11:1-5). Fulfilled: he would be of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Jeremiah 23:5; Psalm 89:3-4). ; Luke 1:27, 32, 69. Note: Since the the Jewish genealogical records were destroyed in 70 A.D., along with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it would not be possible for a Messiah imposter who was born later to prove his lineage back to David and thus fulfill this prophecy.

He will be born in a small city called Bethlehem, specifically the one formerly known as Ephratah (Micah 5:2). Fulfilled: Luke 2:4-20.
He will be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). Fulfilled: Matthew 1; Luke 1.

The Messiah would be the "seed of a woman" come to destroy the work of the Devil. Not long after Creation, God prophecied to the serpent Satan, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). The "seed of the woman" can only be an allusion to a future descendant of Eve who would have no human father. Biologically, a woman produces no seed, and except in this case Biblical usage always speaks only of the seed of men. This promised Seed would, therefore, have to be miraculously implanted in the womb. In this way, He would not inherit the sin nature which would disqualify every son of Adam from becoming a Savior from sin. This prophecy thus clearly anticipates the future virgin birth of Christ.

Satan will inflict a painful wound on the woman's Seed, but Christ in turn will inflict a mortal wound on the Serpent, crushing his head. This prophecy was fulfilled in the first instance at the cross, but will culminate when the triumphant Christ casts Satan into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

In the New Testament, Christ's apostle John confirms that this was His Master's purpose, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work" (1 John 3:8). (Also see: Hebrews 2:14; Revelation 20:10.)

He will be a priest after the order of Melchisedek (Melchisedec) (Psalm 110:4). Fulfilled: Hebrews 5:6

The scepter shall not pass from the tribe of Judah until the Messiah comes. In other words, He will come before Israel loses its right to judge her own people. The patriarch Jacob prophecied this:

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:10)

:This important prophecy has been strikingly fulfilled. Although Judah was neither Jacob's firstborn son nor the son who would produce the priestly tribe, he was the son through whom God would fulfill His promises to Israel and to the world. The leadership, according to Jacob, was to go to Judah, but this did not happen for over 600 years. Moses came from Levi, Joshua from Ephraim, Gideon from Manasseh, Samson from Dan, Samuel from Ephraim and Saul from Benjamin. But when David finally became king, Judah held the scepter and did not relinquish it until after Shiloh came. "Shiloh" is a name for the Messiah, probably related to the Hebrew word for "peace" (shalom) and meaning in effect, "the one who brings peace."

According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Sanhedrin of Israel lost the right to truly judge its own people when it lost the right to pass death penalties in 11 A.D. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17, Chapter 13). Jesus Christ was certainly born before 11 A.D.

Read the rest at:

Messianic Prophecies (WebBible Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Bobby you have just wriiten nonsense. Jesus is not one third devine but 100% God

Brian, I disagree. No matter how much God you think Jesus is, the trinity theology is taught in most Christian circles and is formulated to be "Father (1), Son (2), and Holy Ghost (3)." Without his third portion, your divine concept is incomplete.

Bobby

From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

"It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:

5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
6) Jews and Gentiles
7) Bringing the Messiah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

"5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah, see:

Bnei Noah of Fort Worth
Web search

Path of the Righteous Gentile
Noahide Laws, The Seven - Jewish Knowledge Base
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"
How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice.""
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rabbi Shraga Simmons
Aish.com

Ask the Rabbi - Jesus as the Messiah

__________________________________________________ _____

Bobby

Hello Ramona,

Here is an essay I wrote on this subject a few years ago.

Qualifications to be the Messiah

Many missionaries argue that Jesus was “uniquely qualified” to be the Messiah.

In Jewish Law, in order to be the Messiah, one must be alive. There is no concept in the Torah that discusses the idea of Messiah rising from the dead. This is a fallacy made up to justify the death of Jesus before fulfilling the prophecies of Ezekiel, Zechariah and Isaiah.

Furthermore, in order to be the Messiah, one must be of patrilinial decent from the house of King David. Since Jesus, according to Christian Theology, had no father (or rather "G-d was his father"), he can not be of patrilinial decent from anybody, much less King David. On the other hand, if Christians admit that Joseph was Jesus' father, then he is no longer a deity or son of a diety, but only human.

Therefore, because of his death, and his “lack of a father” (according to the Christians), Jesus was not qualified to be the Messiah according to Jewish law.

What the Messiah Must Do

Another of the “proofs” that many missionaries use is to put forth all of Jesus' “accomplishments”.

However, there are only four requirements for the Messiah in Jewish Law. In order to be the Messiah, one must do the following things before he dies.

- He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
- He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)

In fact Jesus did none of these things. The Third Temple has yet to be rebuilt. The majority of Jews were already living in Israel in the time of Jesus, so he could not make them “return” to the place they already lived. There is no era of world peace or freedom from strife. And finally, despite having 2000 years to spread the “gospel of Jesus” a majority of the world still does not believe in the G-d of Israel. History, therefore, is the greatest proof that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Contradictions Between Jesus' Law and the Torah

Christian missionaries love to claim that Jesus “came to uphold the Law” of the Torah, while at the same time arguing that the Torah is no longer applicable to modern times. But let's just see how well Jesus really did at upholding the Torah, as missionaries like to claim.

Jesus taught the concept of G-d as Three (Trinity). He claimed that there is a “father”, a “son” and a “holy spirit”. This concept is directly opposed to the words of the Torah. For instance, “Hear O Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is ONE” (Deut. 6:4). This is one of the basic precepts of Jewish belief. The idea of three gods is considered idolatry, one of the three cardinal sins that every Jew must die before committing.

Christians believe that Jesus said that he was G-d when he said “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30). Maimonides, in his “Guide for the Perplexed” devoted a great deal of time to the issue of G-d in corporeal form. In essence, he states that the concept of “G-d” means that there is no corporeal form. Corporal forms have finite abilities, and G-d is infinite. Therefore, the concept of Jesus being G-d is ludicrous.

Judaism believes that the Messiah will be born of human parents and will be human himself, with physical attributes like all other people. This is clearly stated by Maimonides among others. Therefore, if Jesus is G-d, as the Christians believe, he cannot be the Messiah. And if he is the Messiah, he must be born of human parents, and cannot, therefore, be G-d.

Christianity believes that the prayers of the people must go through Jesus. “No man cometh unto the Father but me.” This is diametrically opposed to the Torah which states “G-d is near to all who call unto Him” (Ps. 145:18). Further, one of the Ten Commandments is “Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME.” Therefore, the concept of Jesus as an intermediary for prayer is against the Torah.

The concept of a “New Testament” which overrides the laws of the Torah is in direct violation of the Torah. It states in Deuteronomy 13:1 “there may be no additions, nor subtractions from this law”. Furthermore, G-d states very clearly that he will never forsake his covenant with his people. The concept of a “New Testament”, which both adds new laws and eliminates the requirements of the old ones, goes against the Torah.

The “Proofs” of Jesus in the Torah

Many Christian missionaries try to use the words of the Torah as proofs that Jesus is G-d and/or the Messiah. Most of these “proofs” are deliberate mistranslation from the original Hebrew or cases of the words being taken out of context. Here are two common, often-used examples of the “proofs” used by the Christians.

- “Isaiah 53 discusses a suffering servant who will die and be rejected. Surely this passage proves that Jesus is the Messiah.”

Actually, no, it proves nothing of the sort. The “Suffering Servant” passages used by Christians does not refer to Jesus at all. It refers to the “House of Israel”, all Jews, who will suffer because of their own sins. Many people ask, “If these sentences refer to all Jews, why is it in the singular rather than plural?” The answer is simple. The Torah is filled with many cases of singular use, which actually refers to all of Israel. For instance, Isaiah in Chapter 49, refers to a “servant”, and states specifically that this single servant refers to all of Israel . Another example is “HEAR O Israel the L-rd, our G-d, the L-rd is one”. The word “hear” in the sentence is singular, yet it refers to all of Israel.

In fact, if read correctly, the Christian interpretation makes little sense. “He shall grow up as a plant” (Is. 53:2) refers to the future, while “He is despised and rejected” (Is. 53:3) refers to the present, and “Surely He has born or grief and carried our sorrows” (Is. 53:4) and “But He was wounded for our transgressions” (Is. 53:5) both refer to the past. If the entire passage referred to Jesus, wouldn't it all be in one tense? If it refers to Jesus in the present, how can it also refer to him in the past and in the future? Obviously, the passage refers to something else. However, if interpreted in the Jewish way, it makes perfect sense. Isaiah is saying that that the Jewish people will develop like a plant as a source of nourishment (in the future) despite being despised and rejected by all the nations (in the present) and despite having been persecuted and enslaved by the Egyptians, Philistines and others (in the past). Thus the Jewish interpretation has none of the difficulties of the Christian version.

- “Psalm 22 speaks of one who is rejected by his own people and taunted and mocked. This obviously refers to the events ascribed to Jesus in Mathew 26 and 27. It even refers to hands and feet being pierced, a sure reference to Jesus.”

Again, this Christian interpretation has many difficulties. The question is whether this passage can refer to anyone besides Jesus, or is this reference exclusively to Jesus alone. The answer is that Psalm 22 could refer to others as well. For instance, many commentators feel that this passage refers to all of Israel, just as the passage in Isaiah does.

For instance, many Jews felt they were forsaken during the Holocaust. They were not permitted to immigrate to any other country during the 1930's. They were starved in the concentration camps (“may tell my bones” (Ps. 22:17)) and had their clothing taken from them (“They part my garments among them”(Ibid.)). Or perhaps it means the Jews of earlier pogroms, who were surrounded by many “bulls” from the Cossacks to the Crusaders.

The key point that Christians make to prove that Psalm 22 is a reference to Jesus is references to limbs being pierced. The passage says (according to Christian translation) “For dogs have surrounded me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierce my hands and feet.” (Ps. 22:16) However, the Hebrew word used in the sentence is “Ka'ari”. This word means “like a lion”. This sentence is meant to be translated as follows: “For dogs have surrounded me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; like a lion who has my hands and feet.” As a matter of fact, the Hebrew language has no word for “pierce”, neither in ancient nor modern Hebrew. Thus the use of the word “pierce” as a translation of “Ka'ari” is a falsehood, and further proof of the fallacy of Jesus.

The Miracles of Jesus

One of the most important arguments used by the Christians to support their claims of Jesus as G-d are the “miracles” he performed, such as raising the dead, healing the sick and infirm, walking on water, etc. After all, if Jesus could do these things, doesn't it prove his divinity?

Again, the answer is NO. Even assuming that his miracles actually occurred and were indeed divinely inspired, the fact is that the Torah speaks specifically about how to handle such a situation. It states (Deut. 13:2-5) that if one claims to bring the word of G-d, and performs miracles to “prove” that he brings the word of G-d, and then changes the word of G-d, he is a false prophet and must be stoned, even if all his miracles come to fruition. Thus the fact that Jesus might have performed “miracles” does not make his word holy. He made people believe he was G-d and told them that there were a bunch of new laws called “the New Testament” which override the “Old Testament”. Thus by changing the word of G-d, he invalidated his own miracles.

Comment on BABRAM's post

No, He asked why some Jewish people don't think Jesus is the Messiah. Not what the diffrence between Judaism and Christianity is.

I don't know for sure. But I do know that Some Jews do think he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallen2grace

I dont know for sure. But i do know that Some Jews do think he was.

Wait a minute! You don't know for sure, but blatantly stated, "No, He asked why some Jewish people don't think Jesus is the Messiah. Not what the difference between Judaism and Christianity is." Respectfully- you missed the point. The nature of my reply was based on the theological basic differences that inference "Jesus." The trinity involves the Christian believed upon messiah "Jesus." Again "Satan," Jesus' arch enemy, an embodied fallen angel according to Christianity. Jesus' messiahship, or lack thereof, is yet another of the major historical differences between Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity. Please next time read the entire post. I later gave an addendum with specific reasons.

Bobby

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallen2grace

I dont know for sure. But i do know that Some Jews do think he was.

There is a group called "Jews For Jesus" that claims to be "Jewish" and to have beliefe in Jesus as the Messiah. However, this is not a widely recognized Jewish sect.

In fact, Jews For Jesus is actually an Evangelical Baptist Christian sect.

Its leader Mort "Moshe" Rosen graduated from Northeastern Bible College in 1957, received his DD from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary in 1986, and was ordained by the Baptist Church in 1957. He has served on various Christian and specifically Baptist organizations throughout his career, before starting this supposedly "Jewish" organization.

Its Executive Director, David Brickner, is another Christian, having studied at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago and the Fuller School of World Mission in Pasadena, California. He has a degree in "missiology", meaning that he is a professional Baptist missionary and was ordained through the Baptist Conference. And he belongs to (and is an official missionary from) The Community Bible Church of Vallejo, California... not exactly your local synagogue.

This is true of the entire leadership of Jews for Jesus. They are CHRISTIAN leaders, not Jewish leaders. They have educations in Christian religion, not Judaism.

Furthermore, Jews for Jesus is a member of numerous evangelical Christian groups, including The World Evangelical Alliance, the National Association of Evangelicals, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, the World Evangelical Fellowship, the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, the Canadian Council for Christian Charities, the Evangelical Alliance of Great Britain, the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, the Fédération Evangélique de France, (Evangelical Federation of France), the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism. The majority (78%) of funding comes from "individual donations" which are from Christians. In fact, it is fair to say that almost NONE of the their funding comes from Jewish sources (except for people they have suckered into becoming members of their organization.

So, in short, Jews For Jesus is NOT a Jewish organization, does not represent mainstream Jewish thought, and is, in fact, a sham being perpetrated by the Baptist Church in an attempt to prosteletize Jews into Christianity.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by BABRAM

From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)--

From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming

"From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming"

That may be the Christian understanding but from within the Jewish tradition there is no notion of a second coming. When the messiah comes he will be a human leader of his people and the messianic age then begins; these things are accomplished. The fact that they haven't come to pass is a major proof that the messiah of Jewish theology has yet to arrive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming

Nohelp,

Sorry, but in Jewish thought there is no second coming. There is no basis in OT scripture for the idea that the Messiah will rise from the dead. This isn't a baseball game: no three strikes. If Jesus had been the Messiah, he would have accomplished these goals the first time around. And please keep in mind that according to Christian beliefe, Jesus already had a second coming... he supposedly rose fom the dead after 3 days. So he has already had TWO opportunities to accomplish these prophesies.

Elliot

Quote:

So he has already had TWO opportunities to accomplish these prophesies.

This is something I always had a problem with as well. If Jesus was an all powerful God, why does he need so many chances to do what he's supposed to do?

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. Here are just a few...

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. To the LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13... Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8... Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12... Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10... John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1... Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

[

B] 31- Buried with the rich:[/B] Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7... Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

****** 34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)

That's a good example of why "Judaism rejected Jesus as Messiah." In complete context, using the JPS (Hebrew to English) the following verse in Zechariah 9:10 reads,"He shall shall banish chariots from Ephraim and horses from Jerusalem. The warrior's bow shall be banished. He shall call on the nations to surrender. And his rule shall extend from sea to sea and from ocean to land's end." And that's just the first verse listed above of the many that is out of context.

Bobby

The verses actually read
9 “ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be 'from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.'[a]

There is nothing out of context here. This is a strait translation from hebrew text.

First of all, do you actually read and speak Hebrew? I do. So if you are going to state that something is a "strait translation from the hebrew text" you should be sure that it is true first.

Second, exactly when has Jesus' dominion been "from sea to sea"? Exactly when has he had dominion over anything? Twice so far, according to Christian scripture, Jesus lived without ever becoming a king or having anything remotely like dominion over the land.

Nor was Jesus able to speak "peace to the nations"... as far as I can tell the only nations he spoke to in the Christian scripture were Israel and the Romans, and neither one was exactly in a listening mood when he spoke peace. He certainly didn't manage to speak peace to any other nations. The "battle bow" was never cut off. And he never achieved any sort of peace.

So exactly what part of this prophesy came true, Soldout?

I can do the same excersize with each of your citations, if you'd like. But the bottom line is that Jesus really doesn't fulfill any Messianic prophesies. Not if you really look at them.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

First of all, do you actually read and speak Hebrew? I do. So if you are going to state that something is a "strait translation from the hebrew text" you should be sure that it is true first.

Second, exactly when has Jesus' dominion been "from sea to sea"? Exactly when has he had dominion over anything? Twice so far, according to Christian scripture, Jesus lived without ever becoming a king or having anything remotely like dominion over the land.

Nor was Jesus able to speak "peace to the nations"... as far as I can tell the only nations he spoke to in the Christian scripture were Israel and the Romans, and neither one was exactly in a listening mood when he spoke peace. He certainly didn't manage to speak peace to any other nations. The "battle bow" was never cut off. And he never acheived any sort of peace.

So exactly what part of this prophesy came true, Soldout?

I can do the same excersize with each of your citations, if you'd like. But the bottom line is that Jesus really doesn't fulfill any Messianic prophesies. Not if you really look at them.

Elliot

My pastor is actauly Jewish and he speaks Hebrew so I know that is the correct translation. Jesus did speak to the nations. Today Christianity is the largest religion in the world and it is also the fastests Growing. That verse was not literally saying that he will go about speaking to each nation personaly about Peace. His followers have been mandated to go a spread the gospel of peace to all people of all nations. Jesus did have dominion, even though he was not an earthly king, while he was here physically he had dominion over the wind the sea over demons and he still does.

Its funny how you are all focusing on this one verse. What about the other 300 or even the few I have posted previously. How do you explain the prophesies of the death barial and reserection. I just think it would be a real big coincidence that all 300+ prophesies have been slightly miss translated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

My pastor is actauly Jewish and he speaks Hebrew so i know that is the correct translation

So that makes it correct? You say it's straight (or suggest accurate) from the Hebrew, but really don't know and now consider your pastor correct because he is Jewish. Well! So am I, and approximately fifteen million others. No offence personally, but perhaps he's not as literate in Hebrew as you think. Besides he didn't translate your quote of verses. You used an Open Bible, probably New King James, and also an Amplified version. Those are Christian translations. How do I know? From your earlier post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

Jesus did speak to the nations.

Blah blah blah... well instead of making bold claims why don't you provide a historic documented example that demonstrates that Jesus traveled speaking to the nations. Later you'll contradict yourself and suggest it was not Jesus personally, but his followers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

Today Christianity is the largest religion in the world and it is also the fastests Growing.

So! And your point is? Islams probably the second largest growing religion, but that doesn't mean I'm jumping off the bridge. Whoop-tee-do! Honor students are at the top of the class, not in the majority. Now to that which is relevant: when did Jesus extend his rule over the Earth? Certainly not in Paul's lifetime as he expected, BTW postdating the historic Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

That verse was not literaly saying that he will go about speaking to each nation personaly about Peace. His followers have been mandated to go a spread the gospel of peace to all people of all nations. Jesus did have dominion, even though he was not an earthly king, while he was here physically he had dominion over the wind the sea over demons and he still does.

How convenient! The old 'it's not saying what's it saying' fiasco. Zech 9:10 does speak of "He," not you, we, or us. It's physical and that how chariots get banished. How in the name of good sense did your Hebrew speaking pastor ever miss that one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

Its funny how you are all focussing on this one verse. what about the other 300 or even the few i have posted previously. How do you explain the prophesies of the death barial and reserection. I just think it would be a real big coincidence that all 300+ prophesies have been slightly miss translated.

Why not blame yourself! All I did was take the first verse you listed. ETW just further used this particular scripture as topic since you decided to go off topic and not answer the original posted question. Imagine if your first one is WRONG, and it is, how many more to follow are also misconstrued works of missionary ignorance. Sad, not funny.

Bobby

Just a side note -- the Zech verses posted are actually not a direct translation, but a simplified interpretation to remove things that, without rabbinic commentary, wouldn't make sense (and if you don't believe that, ask any "Jewish pastor" why there is a vav in front of the words "al-ayir").

What is important about establishing context is the idea that verses 9 and 10 come after 1-8 and speak about a string of events. To claim that a prophecy is fulfilled because of a phrase in verse 9 is disingenuous at best; many people might have ridden a donkey. So what? Unless this follow the appropriate earthquake and regime changes and exiles of the nations, and is followed by a clear worldwide dominion -- directly followed, as there is no mention of any pause between verses, then claiming support for Christian history is specious.

Over 300 Messianic Prophecies

Gen. 3:15... He will bruise Satan's head... Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18
Gen. 9:26,27... The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem... Lu. 3:36
Gen. 12:3... As Abraham's seed,will bless all nations... Acts. 3:25,26
Gen. 12:7... The Promise made to Abraham's Seed... Gal. 3:16
Gen. 14:18... A priest after Melchizedek... Heb. 6:20
Gen. 14:18... A King also... Heb. 7:2
Gen. 14:18... The Last Supper foreshadowed... Mt. 26:26-29
Gen. 17:19... The Seed of Isaac... Rom. 9:7
Gen. 22:8... The Lamb of God promised... Jn. 1:29
Gen. 22:18... As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations... Gal. 3:16
Gen.26:2-5.. The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer.. Heb.11:18
Gen. 49:10... The time of His coming... Lu. 2:1-7; Gal. 4:4
Gen. 49:10... The Seed of Judah... Lu. 3:33
Gen. 49:10... Called Shiloh or One Sent... Jn. 17:3
Gen. 49:10... To come before Judah lost identity... Jn. 11:47-52
Gen. 49:10... To Him shall the obedience of the people be... Jn. 10:16
Ex. 3:13,14... The Great "I Am"... Jn. 4:26
Ex. 12:5... A Lamb without blemish... 1 Pet. 1:19
Ex. 12:13... The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath... Rom. 5:8
Ex. 12:21-27... Christ is our Passover... 1 Cor. 5;7
Ex. 12:46... Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken... Jn. 19:31-36
Ex. 15:2... His exaltation predicted as Yeshua... Acts 7:55,56
Ex. 15:11... His Character-Holiness... Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27
Ex. 17:6... The Spiritual Rock of Israel... 1 Cor. 10;4
Ex. 33:19... His Character-Merciful... Lu. 1:72
Lev.14:11.. The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood.. Lu.5:12-14; Acts 6:7
Lev.16:15-17... Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death... Heb. 9:7-14
Lev.16:27... Suffering outside the Camp... Mt. 27:33; Heb. 13:11, 12
Lev.17:11... The Blood-the life of the flesh... Mt. 26;28; Mk. 10:45
Lev.17:11... It is the blood that makes atonement... 1 Jn. 3:14-18
Lev.23:36-37... The Drink-offering: "If any man thirst.".. Jn. 19:31-36
Num. 9:12... Not a bone of Him broken... John 19:31-36
Num. 21:9... The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted... Jn. 3:14-18
Num. 24:17... Time: "I shall see him, but not now."... Gal. 4:4
Deut. 18:15... "This is of a truth that prophet."... Jn. 6:14
Deut. 18:15-16... "Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me."... Jn. 5:45-47
Deut. 18:18... Sent by the Father to speak His word... Jn. 8:28, 29
Deut. 18:19... Whoever will not hear must bear his sin... Jn. 12:15,
Deut. 21:23... Cursed is he that hangs on a tree... Gal. 3:10-13
Ruth 4:4-9... Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us... Eph. 1:3-7
1 Sam. 2:10... Shall be an anointed King to the Lord... Mt. 28:18; Jn. 12:15
2 Sam. 7:12... David's Seed... Mt. 1:1
2 Sam. 7:14a... The Son of God... Lu. 1:32
2 Sam. 7:16... David's house established forever... Lu. 3:31; Rev. 22:16
2 Ki. 2:11... The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated... Lu. 24:51
1 Chr. 17:11... David's Seed... Mt. 1:1; 9:27
1 Chr. 17:12, 13a... To reign on David's throne forever... Lu. 1:32, 33
1 Chr. 17:13a... "I will be His Father, He...my Son."... Heb. 1:5
Job 19:23-27... The Resurrection predicted... Jn. 5:24-29
Psa. 2:1-3... The enmity of kings foreordained... Acts 4:25-28
Psa. 2:2... To own the title, Anointed (Christ)... Acts 2:36
Ps. 2:6... His Character-Holiness... Jn. 8:46; Rev. 3:7
Ps. 2:6... To own the title King... Mt. 2:2
Ps. 2:7... Declared the Beloved Son... Mt. 3;17
Psa. 2:7, 8... The Crucifixion and Resurrection intimated... Acts 13:29-33
Psa. 2:12... Life comes through faith in Him... Jn. 20:31
Psa. 8:2... The mouths of babes perfect His praise... Mt. 21:16
Psa. 8:5, 6... His humiliation and exaltation... Lu. 24:50-53; 1 Cor. 15:27
Psa. 16:10... Was not to see corruption... Acts 2:31
Psa. 16:9-11... Was to arise from the dead... Jn. 20:9
Psa. 17;15... The resurrection predicted... Lu. 24:6
Psa. 22:1... Forsaken because of sins of others... 2 Cor. 5:21
Psa. 22:1... Words spoken from Calvary, "My God..." Mk. 15:34
Psa. 22:2... Darkness upon Calvary... Mt. 27:45
Psa. 22:7... They shoot out the lip and shake the head... Mt. 27:39
Psa. 22:8.. "He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him"... Mt. 27:43
Psa. 22:9... Born the Saviour... Lu. 2:7
Psa. 22:14... Died of a broken (ruptured)heart... Jn. 19:34
Psa. 22:14,15... Suffered agony on Calvary... Mk. 15:34-37
Psa. 22:15... He thirsted... Jn. 19:28
Psa. 22:16... They pierced His hands and His feet... Jn. 19:34,37;20:27

Psa. 22:17,18... Stripped Him before the stares of men... Lu. 23:34,35
Psa. 22:18... They parted His garments... Jn. 19:23,24
Psa. 22:20,21... He committed Himself to God... Lu.23:46
Psa. 22:20,21.. Satanic power bruising the Redeemer's heel.. Heb. 2:14
Psa. 22:22... His Resurrection declared... Jn. 20:17
Psa. 22:27... He shall be the governor of the nations... Col 1:16
Psa. 22:31... "It is finished"... Jn. 19:30
Psa. 23:1... "I am the Good Shephard"... Jn. 10:11
Psa. 24:3... His exaltation predicted... Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9
Psa. 30:3... His resurrection predicted... Acts 2:32
Psa. 31:5... "Into thy hands I commit my spirit"... Lu. 23:46
Psa. 31:11... His acquaintances fled from Him... Mk. 14:50
Psa. 31:13... They took counsel to put Him to death... Jn. 11:53
Psa. 31:14,15... " He trusted in God, let Him deliver him"... Mt. 27:43
Psa. 34:20... Not a bone of Him broken... Jn 19:31-36
Psa. 35:11... False witnesses rose up against Him... Mt. 26:59
Psa. 35:19... He was hated without a cause... Jn. 15:25
Psa. 38:11... His friends stood afar off... Lu. 23:49
Psa. 40:2-5... The joy of His resurrection predicted... Jn. 20:20
Psa. 40:6-8... His delight-the will of the Father... Jn. 4:34
Psa. 40:9... He was to preach the Righteousness in Israel... Mt. 4:17
Psa. 40:14... Confronted by adversaries in the Garden... Jn. 18:4-6
Psa. 41:9... Betrayed by a familiar friend... Jn. 13:18
Psa. 45:2... Words of Grace come from His lips... Lu. 4:22
Psa. 45:6... To own the title, God or Elohim... Heb. 1:8
Psa. 45:7... A special anointing by the Holy Spirit... Mt.3:16; Heb.1:9
Psa. 45:7,8... Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)... Lu. 2:11
Psa. 55:12-14... Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy... Jn. 13:18
Psa. 55:15... Unrepentant death of the Betrayer... Mt. 27:3-5; Acts 1:16-19
Psa. 68:18... To give gifts to men... Eph. 4:7-16
Psa. 68:18... Ascended into Heaven... Lu. 24:51
Psa. 69:4... Hated without a cause... Jn. 15:25
Psa. 69:8... A stranger to own brethren... Lu. 8;20,21
Psa. 69:9... Zealous for the Lord's House... Jn. 2:17
Psa. 69:14-20... Messiah's anguish of soul before crucifixion... Mt. 26:36-45
Psa. 69:20... "My soul is exceeding sorrowful."... Mt. 26:38
Psa. 69:21... Given vinegar in thirst... Mt. 27:34
Psa. 69:26... The Saviour given and smitten by God... Jn. 17:4; 18:11
Psa. 72:10,11... Great persons were to visit Him... Mt. 2:1-11
Psa. 72:16... The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground... Jn. 12:24
Psa. 72:17... His name, Yinon, will produce offspring... Jn. 1:12,13
Psa. 72:17... All nations shall be blessed by Him... Acts 2:11,12,41
Psa. 78:1.2... He would teach in parables... Mt. 13:34-35
Psa. 78:2b... To speak the Wisdom of God with authority... Mt. 7:29
Psa. 88:8... They stood afar off and watched... Lu. 23:49
Psa. 89:27... Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings... Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:35-37... David's Seed, throne, kingdom endure forever... Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:36-37... His character-Faithfulness... Rev. 1:5
Psa. 90:2... He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)... Jn. 1:1
Psa. 91:11,12... Identified as Messianic; used to tempt Christ... Lu. 4;10,11
Psa. 97:9... His exaltation predicted... Acts 1:11;Eph. 1:20
Psa. 100:5... His character-Goodness... Mt. 19:16,17
Psa. 102:1-11... The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary... Jn. 21:16-30
Psa. 102:25-27... Messiah is the Preexistent Son... Heb. 1:10-12
Psa. 109:25... Ridiculed... Mt. 27:39
Psa. 110:1... Son of David... Mt. 22:43
Psa. 110:1... To ascend to the right-hand of the Father... Mk.16:19
Psa. 110:1... David's son called Lord... Mt. 22:44,45
Psa. 110:4... A priest after Melchizedek's order... Heb. 6:20
Psa. 112:4... His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al... Mt. 9;36
Psa. 118:17,18... Messiah's Resurrection assured... Lu. 24:5-7;1 Cor. 15:20
Psa. 118:22,23... The rejected stone is Head of the corner... Mt. 21:42,43
Psa. 118:26a... The Blessed One presented to Israel... Mt. 21:9
Psa. 118:26b... To come while Temple standing... Mt. 21;12-15

Psa. 132:11... The Seed of David(the fruit of His Body)... Lu. 1:32
Psa. 138:1-6... The supremacy of David's Seed amazes kings... Mt. 2:2-6
Psa. 147:3,6... The earthly ministry of Christ described... Lu. 4:18
Psa. 1:23... He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16;7
Song. 5;16... The altogether lovely One... Jn. 1:17
Isa. 6:1... When Isaiah saw His glory... Jn. 12:40-41
Isa. 6:9-10... Parables fall on deaf ears... Mt. 13:13-15
Isa. 6:9-12... Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words... Acts. 28:23-29
Isa. 7:14... To be born of a virgin... Lu. 1:35
Isa. 7:14... To be Emmanuel-God with us... Mt. 1:18-23
Isa. 8:8... Called Emmanuel... Mt. 28:20
Isa. 8:14... A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
Isa. 9:1,2... His ministry to begin in Galilee... Mt. 4:12-17
Isa. 9:6... A child born-Humanity... Lu. 1:31
Isa. 9:6... A Son given-Deity... Lu. 1:32; Jn. 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16
Isa. 9:6... Declared to be the Son of God with power... Rom. 1:3,4
Isa. 9:6... The Wonderful One, Peleh... Lu. 4:22
Isa. 9:6... The Counsellor, Yaatz... Mt. 13:54
Isa. 9:6... The Mighty God, El Gibor... Mt. 11:20
Isa. 9:6... The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth... Jn. 8:58
Isa. 9:6... The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom... Jn . 16:33
Isa. 9:7... To establish an everlasting kingdom... Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 9:7... His Character-Just... Jn. 5:30
Isa. 9:7... No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace... Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 11:1... Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer... Mt. 2:23
Isa. 11:1... A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse... Lu. 3:23,32
Isa. 11:2... The anointed One by the Spirit... Mt. 3;16,17
Isa. 11:2... His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al... Jn. 4:4-26
Isa. 11:4... His Character-Truth... Jn. 14:6
Isa. 11:10... The Gentiles seek Him... Jn. 12:18-21
Isa. 12:2... Called Jesus-Yeshua... Mt. 1:21
Isa. 25:8... The Resurrection predicted... I Cor. 15:54
Isa. 26:19... His power of Resurrection predicted... Jn. 11:43,44
Isa. 28:16... The Messiah is the precious corner stone... Acts 4:11,12
Isa. 29:13... He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word... Mt. 15:7-9
Isa. 29:14... The wise are confounded by the Word... I Cor. 1:18-31
Isa. 32:2... A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place... Mt. 23:37
Isa. 35:4... He will come and save you... Mt. 1:21
Isa. 35:5... To have a ministry of miracles... Mt. 11:4-6
Isa. 40:3,4... Preceded by forerunner... Jn. 1:23
Isa. 40:9... "Behold your God."... Jn. 1:36;19:14
Isa. 40:11... A shepherd-compassionatelife-giver... Jn. 10:10-18
Isa. 42:1-4... The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer... Mt.12:18-21
Isa. 42:2... Meek and lowly... Mt. 11:28-30
Isa. 42:3... He brings hope for the hopeless... Jn. 4
Isa. 42:4... The nations shall wait on His teachings... Jn. 12:20-26
Isa. 42:6... The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles... Lu. 2:32
Isa. 42:1,6... His is a Worldwide compassion... Mt. 28:19,20
Isa. 42:7... Blind eyes opened... Jn. 9:25-38
Isa. 43:11... He is the only Saviour... Acts. 4:12
Isa. 44:3... He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16:7,13
Isa. 45:23... He will be the Judge... Jn. 5:22;Rom. 14:11
Isa. 48:12... The First and the Last... Jn. 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17
Isa. 48:17... He came as a Teacher... Jn. 3:2
Isa. 49:1... Called from the womb-His humanity... Mt. 1:18
Isa. 49:5... A Servant from the womb... Lu. 1:31;Phil. 2:7
Isa. 49:6... He is Salvation for Israel... Lu. 2:29-32
Isa. 49:6... He is the Light of the Gentiles... Acts 13:47
Isa. 49:6... He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth... Acts 15:7-18
Isa. 49:7... He is despised of the Nation... Jn. 8:48-49
Isa. 50:3... Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation... Lu. 23:44,45
Isa. 50:4... He is a learned counsellor for the weary... Mt. 11:28,29
Isa. 50:5... The Servant bound willingly to obedience... Mt. 26:39
Isa. 50:6a... "I gave my back to the smiters."... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 50:6b... He was smitten on the cheeks... Mt. 26:67
Isa. 50:6c... He was spat upon... Mt. 27:30
Isa. 52:7... To publish good tidings of peace... Lu. 4:14,15
Isa. 52:13... The Servant exalted... Acts 1:8-11; Eph. 1:19-22
Isa. 52:13... Behold, My Servant... Mt. 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8
Isa. 52:14... The Servant shockingly abused... Lu. 18:31-34; Mt. 26:67,68
Isa. 52:15... Nations startled by message of the Servant... Rom. 15:18-21
Isa. 52:15... His blood shed to make atonement for all... Rev. 1:5
Isa. 53:1... His people would not believe Him... Jn. 12:37-38
Isa. 53:2a... He would grow up in a poor family... Lu. 2:7
Isa. 53:2b... Appearance of an ordinary man... Phil. 2:7-8
Isa. 53:3a... Despised... Lu. 4:28-29

Fulfilled Prophecy Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture New Testament
His pre-existence Micah 5:2 John 1:1, 14
Born of the seed of a woman Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:18
Of the seed of Abraham Genesis 12:3 Matthew 1:1-16
All nations blessed by Abraham's seed Genesis 12:3 Matthew 8:5, 10
God would provide Himself a Lamb as an offering Genesis 22:8 John 1:29
From the tribe of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:1-3
Heir to the throne of David Isaiah 9:6-7 Matthew 1:1
Called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father" Isaiah 9:6 Matthew 1:23
Born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18
His name called Immanuel, "God with us" Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
Declared to be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17
His messenger before Him in spirit of Elijah Malachi 4:5-6 Luke 1:17
Preceded by a messenger to prepare His way Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:7-11
Messenger crying "Prepare ye the way of the Lord" Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:3
Would be a Prophet of the children of Israel Deuteronomy 18:15 Matthew 2:15
Called out of Egypt Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:15
Slaughter of the children Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew2:18

I suppose ALL these profecies are just miss translated. Hmmm.. How convenient for your argument. Even if they were miss translated what are the chances that someone would even vagely live up to all these prophesies? Jesus is Christ and I am sure when he returns for the second time and fulfills the other second coming prophesies of earthly rule, you will all finally get with program.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

My pastor is actauly Jewish and he speaks Hebrew so I know that is the correct translation.

But you don't, and therefore have to take his word for it.

As one who does speak and read the language, I can say quite emphatically that his translations are somewhat lacking in both accuracy and context.

Quote:

Jesus did speak to the nations.

Which ones. What did he tell them? Why is it not recorded in the New testament?

Quote:

Today Christianity is the largest religion in the world and it is also the fastests Growing.

Both of these are incorrect "facts". Islam is the religion with the largest population, having over 1 billion just in India and Pakistan alone. It is also the fastest growing religion in the world. Christianity is actually the SECOND largest religion in the world and is losing ground to Islam.

Quote:

That verse was not literally saying that he will go about speaking to each nation personaly about Peace. His followers have been mandated to go a spread the gospel of peace to all people of all nations. Jesus did have dominion, even though he was not an earthly king, while he was here physically he had dominion over the wind the sea over demons and he still does.

So the scripture is not to be taken literally.

Well, if that's the case, then I can make it mean anything I want it to because it isn't literal. Maybe Jesus didn't literally rise from the dead after 3 days? Maybe he didn't literally heal anyone. Maybe he didn't literally walk on water? Maybe nothing listed as having been done by Jesus actually happened in the literal sense. Maybe all of it was figurative.

We in Judaism believe that when the Torah says something is going to happen, it is to be taken literally. If it says the Messiah will speak to all the nations about peace, then we can take it literally to mean exactly that.

Quote:

Its funny how you are all focusing on this one verse. What about the other 300 or even the few I have posted previously. How do you explain the prophesies of the death barial and reserection. I just think it would be a real big coincidence that all 300+ prophesies have been slightly miss translated.

Hey, if that's what you want, I can go through your list one by one. I made that offer the other day. If you are taking me up on that offer, I'll happily oblige. I'll start later today.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

I suppose ALL these profecies are just miss translated. Hmmm.. How convenient for your argument.

Nope. Just most of them. The others were taken out of context.

Quote:

Even if they were miss translated what are the chances that someone would even vagely live up to all these prophesies?

That's kind of the point, isn't it. Only one person can live up to all of the Messianic prophesies in a literal sense, and that is the Messiah. The fact that Jesus didn't live up to those standards in a literal sense just proves our point... that Jesus wasn't the Messiah.

Quote:

Jesus is Christ and I am sure when he returns for the second time and fulfills the other second coming prophesies of earthly rule, you will all finally get with program.

Actually, that would be the THIRD coming, wouldn't it?

Elliot

Go for it! I would like to here how you are going to conviniently twist 300 prophesies to suit your argument. It will be interesting to see how you will discount the prophesies of his crusifition death reserection rejection.
Your Rejection of Jesus was also prohesied so you are only comfieming the prophesies by rejecting Him
Isaiah 53:3 - He would be despised, rejected, and not esteemed by His people. [49:7]

Psalm 22:6-8 - He would be reproached, despised, mocked [cf. Matt. 27:41-43].

Psalm 118:22,23 - He is compared to God's chief cornerstone, yet the builders would reject Him. This was fulfilled when the Jews rejected Jesus (Acts 4:11). [Matt. 21:42; Mark 12:10f; Luke 20:17; 1 Peter 2:7]

"Both of these are incorrect "facts". Islam is the religion with the largest population, having over 1 billion just in India and Pakistan alone. It is also the fastest growing religion in the world. Christianity is actually the SECOND largest religion in the world and is losing ground to Islam."

You need to do your research before you make such statements 1in 3 people are christians. Islams is only fast growing by the number of births into the religion, but Christianity is the Fastest growing by the number of converts. Click on this link
And see.. Major Religions Ranked by Size

It is puzzling to consider why some Jews do not recognize Jesus as the long promised and awaited Messiah, with so many prophecies of the Scriptures fulfilled to the letter in Jesus of Nazareth...

... One reason I guess is that the Scriptures make 300 prophecies of the "First Coming of the Messiah", as the suffering servant of Is.53, but make 500 prophecies about the "Second Coming of the Messiah", the triumphal King of Zach.14... to the point that some rabbis talk about two Messiah, and for most Jews, the "triumphant one" is the Messiah they were expecting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldout

Gen. 3:15... He will bruise Satan's head... Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18

Gen 3:14 God said to the serpent, 'Because you did this, cursed are you more than all the livestock and all the wild beasts. On your belly you shall crawl, and dust you shall eat, all the days of your life. 3:15 I will plant hatred between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike you in the head, and you will strike him in the heel.'

What does this have to do with striking Satan in the head? This is talking about the offspring of the snake and the offspring of Eve. It has nothing to do with Satan. You are mistranslating the word "nachash" which means "serpent", as "Satan".

Quote:

Gen. 9:26,27... The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem... Lu. 3:36

Gen 9:24Noah awoke from his wine-induced sleep, and he realized what his youngest son had done to him. 9:25 He said, 'Cursed is Canaan! He shall be a slave's slave to his brothers!' 9:26 He then said, 'Blessed be God, the Lord of Shem! Canaan shall be his slave! 9:27May God expand Yefeth, but may He dwell in the tents of Shem. Let Canaan be their slave!'

This is a curse by Noah against Canaan. It has nothing to do with Jesus. It isn't a prediction, it is a curse. And it has nothing to do with the offspring of Shem being a god or a messianic figure. I can't tell what you have mistranslated here, but a close look at the context of the verses makes it clear that it has nothing to do with Messianic prophesy.

Quote:

Gen. 12:3... As Abraham's seed,will bless all nations... Acts. 3:25,26

Gen 12:1 God said to Abram, 'Go away from your land, from your birthplace, and from your father's house, to the land that I will show you. 12:2 I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you great. You shall become a blessing. 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and he who curses you, I will curse. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you.'

Again, a close look at the text makes it clear that this has nothing to do with Messianic prophesy. It is a blessing to Abram for following G-d commandment to leave the land of his birth. It is a blessing for offspring that will be a blessing to the world... the Jewish people as a whole.

The proof that this is not a reference to Jesus is that Jesus never cursed anyone that cursed him. In fact, he specifically told people to turn the other cheek when someone offends against them.

Quote:

Gen. 12:7... The Promise made to Abraham's Seed... Gal. 3:16

Gen 12:7 God appeared to Abram and said, 'I will give this land to your off-spring.' [Abram] built an altar there to God who had appeared to him.

G-d promissed to give the land to Abram's offspring. This is, if anything, a proof that the land of Israel (including the West Bank in which Shechem is located) belongs to the Jews, not the Arabs. It has nothing to do with Messianic prophesy. It is a prophesy regarding ownership of the Land of Israel.

Quote:

Gen. 14:18... A priest after Melchizedek... Heb. 6:20
Gen. 14:18... A King also... Heb. 7:2
Gen. 14:18... The Last Supper foreshadowed... Mt. 26:26-29

Gen 14:17 After he [Abram] returned from his victory over Chedorlaomer and his allied kings, the king of Sodom came out to greet him in Level Valley (now King's Valley).
14:18 Malkhi-tzedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine. He was a priest to God, the Most High.
14:19 He blessed [Abram], and said, 'Blessed be Abram to God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth.
14:20 And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.' [Abram then] gave him a tenth of everything.
14:21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, 'Give me the people. You can keep the goods.'
14:22 Abram replied to the king of Sodom, 'I have lifted my hand [in an oath] to God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth!
14:23 Not a thread nor a shoelace! I will not take anything that is yours! You should not be able to say, 'It was I who made Abram rich.'
14:24 The only exception is what the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who went with me, Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Let them take their share.'

I see nothing here that refers to a priest after Makhi-Tzedek. This is not a prophesy at all, but rather an historical account of the aftermath of a war. It mentions kings, but it is the actual King od Sodom and the actual King of Salem, not some future king. Moreover, it mentions multiple kings, not one. Is there more than one Messiah? Your interpretation of this as referring to Messianic prophesy doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

Gen. 17:19... The Seed of Isaac... Rom. 9:7

Gen 17:15 God said to Abraham, 'Sarai your wife - do not call her by the name Sarai, for Sarah is her name.
17:16 I will bless her, and make her bear you a son. I will bless her so that she will be [the mother] of entire nations - kings will be her descendants.'
17:17 Abraham fell on his face and he laughed. He said to himself, 'Can a hundred-year-old man have children? Can Sarah, who is ninety, give birth?'
17:18 To God, Abraham said, 'May it be granted that Ishmael live before you!'
17:19 God said, 'Still, your wife Sarah will give birth to a son. You must name him Isaac. I will keep My covenant with him as an eternal treaty, for his descendants after him.

This is talking about a prophesy of the birth of Isaac, and the promise to the descendants of Isaac. Where is there any specific reference to Jesus, who was only one of many Jews that decended from Isaac?

Quote:

Gen. 22:8... The Lamb of God promised... Jn. 1:29
Gen. 22:18... As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations... Gal. 3:16

Gen 22:1 After these events, God tested Abraham.
'Abraham!' He said. 'Yes.'
22:2 'Take your son, the only one you love - Isaac - and go away to the Moriah area. Bring him as an all-burned offering on one of the mountains that I will designate to you.'
22:3 Abraham got up early in the morning and saddled his donkey. He took his two men with him, along with his son Isaac. He cut wood for the offering, and set out, heading for the place that God had designated.
22:4 On the third day, Abraham looked up, and saw the place from afar.
22:5 Abraham said to his young men, 'Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go to that place. We will worship and then return to you.'
22:6 Abraham took the offering wood and placed it on [the shoulders of] his son Isaac. He himself took the fire and the slaughter knife, and the two of them went together.
22:7 Isaac spoke up to Abraham.
'Father.' 'Yes, my son.' 'Here is the fire and the wood. But where is the lamb for the offering?'
22:8 'God will see to a lamb for an offering, my son,' replied Abraham. The two of them continued together.
22:9 When they finally came to the place designated by God, Abraham built the altar there, and arranged the wood. He then bound his son Isaac, and placed him on the altar on top of the wood.
22:10 Abraham reached out and took the slaughter knife to slit his son's throat.
22:11 God's angel called to him from heaven and said, 'Abraham! Abraham!' 'Yes.'
22:12 'Do not harm the boy. Do not do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God. You have not withheld your only son from Him.'
22:13 Abraham then looked up and saw a ram caught by its horns in a thicket. He went and got the ram, sacrificing it as an all-burned offering in his son's place.
22:14 Abraham named the place 'God will See' (Adonoy Yir'eh). Today, it is therefore said, 'On God's Mountain, He will be seen.'
22:15 God's angel called to Abraham from heaven a second time,
22:16 and said, 'God declares, 'I have sworn by My own Essence, that because you performed this act, and did not hold back your only son,
22:17 I will bless you greatly, and increase your offspring like the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your offspring shall inherit their enemies' gate.
22:18 All the nations of the world shall be blessed through your descendants - all because you obeyed My voice.' '
22:19 Abraham returned to his young men, and together they set out and went to Beer-sheba. Abraham remained in Beer-sheba.

Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding of context here. Abraham told Isaac that G-d would provide a lamb for the sacrifice that they were about to perform at that time. And G-d provided them with a ram for that purpose. What does this have to do with some future "lamb" named Jesus who was not sacrificed by any method of sacrifice listed in the Bible, but rather crucified?

Gen.26:2-5.. The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer.. Heb.11:18

Gen 26:2 God appeared to [Isaac] and said, 'Do not go down to Egypt. Remain undisturbed in the land that I shall designate to you.
26:3 Remain an immigrant in this land. I will be with you and bless you, since it will be to you and your offspring that I will give all these lands. I will thus keep the oath that I made to your father Abraham.
26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars of the sky, and grant them all these lands. All the nations on earth shall be blessed through your descendants.
26:5 All this is because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My decrees, and My laws.'

I see nothing here about a "redeemer" of any kind. This is a blessing for a great nation. It refers to NUMEROUS offspring. Again, is there more than one Messiah, because if this section is a messianic prophesy, it must be for MANY messiahs... the many offspring of Isaac?

This is getting a bit long, so I will continue in the next post...

Quote:

Gen. 49:10... The time of His coming... Lu. 2:1-7; Gal. 4:4
Gen. 49:10... The Seed of Judah... Lu. 3:33
Gen. 49:10... Called Shiloh or One Sent... Jn. 17:3
Gen. 49:10... To come before Judah lost identity... Jn. 11:47-52
Gen. 49:10... To Him shall the obedience of the people be... Jn. 10:16

Quote:

49:1Jacob called for his sons. [When they came,] he said, 'Come together, and I will tell you what will happen in the course of time. 49:2 Come and listen, sons of Jacob; listen to your father Israel. 49:3 'Reuben, you are my firstborn, my strength and the beginning of my manhood, first in rank and first in power. 49:4 [But because you were] unstable as water, you will no longer be first. This is because you moved your father's beds, committing a profane act. He moved my bed!

49:5'Simeon and Levi are a pair; instruments of crime are their wares. 49:6 Let my soul not enter their plot; let my spirit not unite with their meeting - for they have killed men with anger, maimed bulls with will. 49:7 Cursed be their rage, for it is fierce, and their fury, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, scatter them in Israel.

49:8 'Judah, your brothers shall submit to you. Your hand shall be on your enemies' necks; your father's sons shall bow to you. 49:9 'Young lion, Judah, you have risen from prey, my son. He crouches, lies like a lion, like an awesome lion, who will dare rouse him?
49:10 'The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor legislation from his descendants. Nations will submit to him until the final tranquility comes. 49:11 He loads down his donkey with a [single] grapevine, his young donkey with a single vine branch. He even washes his clothes in wine, his cloak in the blood of grapes. 49:12But his eyes are more sparkling than the wine his teeth whiter than milk.

In order to make this work as some sort of Messianic prophesy, you have to ignore the fact that Jacob is blessing all of the brothers, not only Judah. Furthermore, the word "shiloh" doesn't mean "one sent." That would be "Shaluach", not "Shiloh". The two words aren't even related. And finally, in order for any of this to apply to Jesus, Jesus would have to have been decended from Judah from his father's side. Since according to Christian scripture, Jesus was the son of G-d, not the son of Joseph, he could not be a descendant of Judah. For all these reasons, this scripture cannot possibly apply to Jesus.

Quote:

Ex. 3:13,14... The Great "I Am"... Jn. 4:26

Ex 3:1 Moses tended the sheep of his father-in-law Jethro, sheik of Midian. He led the flock to the edge of the desert, and he came to God's Mountain, in the Horeb area.
3:2 God's angel appeared to [Moses] in the heart of a fire, in the middle of a thorn-bush. As he looked, [Moses] realized that the bush was on fire, but was not being consumed.
3:3 Moses said [to himself], 'I must go over there and investigate this wonderful phenomenon. Why doesn't the bush burn?'
3:4 When God saw that [Moses] was going to investigate, He called to him from the middle of the bush. 'Moses, Moses!' He said. 'Yes,' replied [Moses].
3:5 'Do not come any closer,' said [God]. 'Take your shoes off your feet. The place upon which you are standing is holy ground.'
3:6 [God then] said, 'I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob.' Moses hid his face, since he was afraid to look at the Divine.
3:7 God said, 'I have indeed seen the suffering of My people in Egypt. I have heard how they cry out because of what their slave-drivers [do], and I am aware of their pain.
3:8 I have come down to rescue them from Egypt's power. I will bring them out of that land, to a good, spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, the territory of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites.
3:9 'Right now the cry of the Israelites is coming to Me. I also see the pressure to which Egypt is subjecting them.
3:10 Now go. I am sending you to Pharaoh. Bring My people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.'
3:11 'Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh?' said Moses to God. 'And how can I possibly get the Israelites out of Egypt?'
3:12 'Because I will be with you,' replied [God]. 'Proof that I have sent you will come when you get the people out of Egypt. All of you will then become God's servants on this mountain.'
3:13 Moses said to God, 'So I will go to the Israelites and say, 'Your fathers' God sent me to you.' They will immediately ask me what His name is. What shall I say to them?'
3:14 'I Will Be Who I Will Be,' replied God to Moses. [God then] explained, 'This is what you must say to the Israelites: 'I Will Be sent me to you.' '
3:15 God then said to Moses, 'You must [then] say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
3:16 'Go, gather the elders of Israel, and say to them, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, appeared to me - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He said, 'I have granted you special providence regarding what is happening to you in Egypt.
3:17 I declare that I will bring you out of the wretchedness of Egypt, to the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites - to a land flowing with milk and honey.' '
3:18 'They will take what you say seriously. You and the elders of Israel will then go to the king of Egypt. You must tell him, 'YHVH, God of the Hebrews, revealed Himself to us. Now we request that you allow us to take a three day journey into the desert, to sacrifice to YHVH our God.'
3:19 'I know in advance that the Egyptian king will not allow you to leave unless he is forced to do so.
3:20 I will then display My power and demolish Egypt through all the miraculous deeds that I will perform in their land. Then [Pharaoh] will let you leave.
3:21 'I will give the people status among the Egyptians, and when you all finally leave, you will not go empty-handed.
3:22 Every woman shall borrow articles of silver and gold, as well as clothing, from her neighbor or from the woman living with her. You shall load this on your sons and daughters, and you will thus drain Egypt [of its wealth].'

Sorry, but the fact that Jesus quoted something that G-d said to Moses 1800 years before he was born, in a story told to every Jewish child, does not make Jesus a G-d or a Messiah. The verse here uses the term "I Will Be Who I Will Be" is a name of G-d used to describe him to the Israelites, and there is nothing in this verse that says that such a name will ever be used by someone in the future, much less someone named Jesus.

Continued below

Quote:

Ex. 12:5... A Lamb without blemish... 1 Pet. 1:19
Ex. 12:13... The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath... Rom. 5:8
Ex. 12:21-27... Christ is our Passover... 1 Cor. 5;7
Ex. 12:46... Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken... Jn. 19:31-36

Ex 12:1 God said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt:
12:2 This month shall be the head month to you. It shall be the first month of the year.
12:3 Speak to the entire community of Israel, saying: On the tenth of this month, every man must take a lamb for each extended family, a lamb for each household.
12:4 If the household is too small for a lamb, then he and a close neighbor can obtain a [lamb together], as long as it is for specifically designated individuals. Individuals shall be designated for a lamb according to how much each one will eat.
12:5 You must have a flawless young animal, a one-year-old male. You can take it from the sheep or from the goats.
12:6 Hold it in safekeeping until the fourteenth day of this month. The entire community of Israel shall then slaughter [their sacrifices] in the afternoon.
12:7 They must take the blood and place it on the two doorposts and on the beam above the door of the houses in which they will eat [the sacrifice].
12:8 Eat the [sacrificial] meat during the night, roasted over fire. Eat it with matzah and bitter herbs.
12:9 Do not eat it raw or cooked in water, but only roasted over fire, including its head, its legs, and its internal organs.
12:10 Do not leave any of it over until morning. Anything that is left over until morning must be burned in fire.
12:11 You must eat it with your waist belted, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand, and you must eat it in haste. It is the Passover (Pesach) offering to God.
12:12 I will pass through Egypt on that night, and I will kill every first-born in Egypt, man and beast. I will perform acts of judgment against all the gods of Egypt. I [alone] am God.
12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are staying. I will see the blood and pass you by (pasach). There will not be any deadly plague among you when I strike Egypt.
12:14 This day must be one that you will remember. You must keep it as a festival to God for all generations. It is a law for all time that you must celebrate it.
12:15 Eat matzahs for seven days. By the first day, you must have your homes cleared of all leaven. Whoever eats leaven from the first day until the seventh day will have his soul cut off from Israel.
12:16 The first day shall be a sacred holiday, and the seventh day shall [also] be a sacred holiday. No work may be done on these [days]. The only [work] that you may do is that which is needed so that everyone will be able to eat.
12:17 Be careful regarding the matzahs, for on this very day I will have brought your masses out of Egypt. You must carefully keep this day for all generations; it is a law for all times.
12:18 From the 14th day of the first month in the evening, until the night of the 21st day of the month, you must eat [only] matzahs.
12:19 During [these] seven days, no leaven may be found in your homes. If someone eats anything leavened his soul shall be cut off from the community of Israel. [This is true] whether he is a proselyte or a person born into the nation.
12:20 You must not eat anything leavened. In all the areas where you live, eat matzahs.
12:21 Moses summoned the elders of Israel, and said to them, 'Gather [the people] and get yourselves sheep for your families, so that you will be able to slaughter the Passover sacrifice.
12:22 'You will then have to take a bunch of hyssop and dip it into the blood that [will be placed] in a basin. Touch the beam over the door and the two doorposts with some of the blood in the basin. Not a single one of you may go out the door of his house until morning.
12:23 'God will then pass through to strike Egypt. When he sees the blood over the door and on the two doorposts, God will pass over that door, and not let the force of destruction enter your houses to strike.
12:24 'You must keep this ritual as a law, for you and your children forever.
12:25 When you come to the land that God will give you, as He promised, you must [also] keep this service.
12:26 Your children may [then] ask you, 'What is this service to you?'
12:27 You must answer, 'It is the Passover service to God. He passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians, sparing our homes.' The people bent their heads and prostrated themselves.
12:28 The Israelites went and did as God had instructed Moses and Aaron. They did it exactly.
12:29 It was midnight. God killed every first-born in Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh, sitting on his throne, to the first-born of the prisoner in the dungeon, as well as every first-born animal.
12:30 Pharaoh stayed up that night, along with all his officials and all the rest of Egypt. There was a great outcry, since there was no house where there were no dead.
12:31 [Pharaoh] sent for Moses and Aaron during the night. 'Get moving!' he said. 'Get out from among my people - you and the Israelites! Go! Worship God just as you demanded!
12:32 Take your sheep and cattle, just as you said! Go! Bless me too!'
12:33 The Egyptians were also urging the people to hurry and leave the land. 'We are all dead men!' they were saying.
12:34 The people took their dough before it could rise. Their leftover dough was wrapped in their robes [and placed] on their shoulders.
12:35 The Israelites [also] did as Moses had said. They requested silver and gold articles and clothing from the Egyptians.
12:36 God made the Egyptians respect the people, and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.
12:37 The Israelites traveled from Rameses toward Sukkoth. There were about 600,000 adult males on foot, besides the children.
12:38 A great mixture [of nationalities] left with them. There were [also] sheep and cattle, a huge amount of livestock.
12:39 [The Israelites] baked the dough that they had brought out of Egypt into unleavened (matzah) cakes, since it had not risen. They had been driven out of Egypt and could not delay, and they had not prepared any other provisions.
12:40 The lifestyle that the Israelites endured in Egypt had thus lasted 430 years.
12:41 At the end of the 430 years, all of God's armies left Egypt in broad daylight.
12:42 There was a night of vigil for God, [preparing] to bring them out of Egypt. This night remains for the Israelites a vigil to God for all generations.
12:43 God said to Moses and Aaron, 'This is the law of the Passover sacrifice:
'No outsider may eat it.
12:44 If a man buys a slave for cash and circumcises him, then [the slave] can eat it.
12:45 [But if a gentile is] a temporary resident or a hired hand, he may not eat [the Passover sacrifice].
12:46 'It must be eaten by a single group. Do not bring any of its meat out of the group. Do not break any of its bones.
12:47 'The entire community of Israel must keep [this ritual].
12:48 When a proselyte joins you and wants to offer the Passover sacrifice to God, every male [in his household] must be circumcised. He may then join in the observance, and be like a native-born [Israelite]. But no uncircumcised man may eat [the sacrifice].
12:49 The same law shall apply both for the native-born [Israelite] and for the proselyte who joins you.'
12:50 All the Israelites did as God had instructed Moses and Aaron. They did it exactly.
12:51 On that very day, God took the Israelites out of Egypt in organized groups.
These are the laws of the pascal sacrifice. It specifically says that the pascal sacrifice will be a lamb, not a human being. And it says that the pascal sacrifice was done exactly as G-d commanded it... with a lamb, not a human being as the sacrifice. Furthermore, was Jesus tied to a bedpost for three days before being sacrificed? Was his blood smeared on the doorposts of the Jewish people? Was his flesh eaten in Jerusalem? His actual flesh, not a cracker? Last I heard, cannibalism was prohibbited in Jewish law. Was Jesus' body "flawless" at the time of his death, or did he have nail holes in his hands and feet and a spear wound on his body? Was he dry-roasted over an open fire? Was his flesh eaten with Matzoh and bitter herbs? If not, then these verses cannot apply to Jesus, can they?

Continued

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:51 AM.

Page 1 of 2

Last»

Show %1$s post(s) from this question on one page