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I once worked in an apartment building New York City where I met this Jewish gentleman who always requested that we press the elevator button for him and open his apartment door because if he did it it would mean that he had worked and he was sinning. Is this an official belief Jewish community or is it a misunderstanding on this person's part?
That's more than simple misunderstanding... it's extreme superstition.
Hi,
Sounds like the person just wants to feel important; having others do things for him! I don't think this comes under "sinning", for any religion!
Please forgive the above post, it shows a lack of understanding of other religions.
I know a few Jews who have different levels of orthodox observance. Even among themselves the debate is endless as to what contitute "work" on the Sabbath.
Over the years I've heard a variety of the debates over what is work and what is not... but never so extreme as opening a door or pushing a button.
Those extremes make me wonder if the guy would say he's not allowed to eat: to open a box of something, turn on his stove, press Start on a microwave, etc...
... or how about relieving himself: unzip his zipper
Flush his toilet? (press the flush lever)
Brush his teeth? (squeeze the tube).
... ok, I'll leave the poor fella alone now.
Hopefully a Jewish member will pipe in on this one.
HI,
I do apologize if I have "shown a lack of understanding of other religions". However, with that apology in mind, and maybe not even needed at all, can anyone shed some light on just specifically what religion or spiritual belief is there that specifically says "pushing an elevator button" or "opening a door" is "sinning"?
Thank you.
I totally agree with this sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
For some ultra Orthodox jews, even turning on a light switch is forbidden during the Sabbath as it is against their holy laws.
Ok, I see the point. Pardon me if I've gone too far to make light of "religious" practices. :(
In my faith we have what's called superstition: In short it's taking a good thing, or even a doctrine, too far. I wonder if this is the case.
For the always wondering side of me I'd love to see an official pronouncement of a religion [branch of Judaism] that prohibits such things as these.
The third one is neat in that it gives some examples for each of the 39 prohibited categories.
But nowhere do we find prohibitions of the likes of opening a door or pushing a button.
The reason for this is that there is a prohibition against creating a spark on the Sabbath. I'm not sure if this is an interpretation or specifically mentioned. It may stem from the Exodus 16:23 where it said "bake that which ye will bake today", meaning before the Sabbath.Therefore pushing the elevator button would involve using electricity, creating a spark. Opening his apartment door seems going too far and I'm not sure why he wouldn't do that. But any use of electricity is forbidden. But many apartment buildings that have a number of orthodox Jews will set elevators to stop at every floor during the Sabbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
To Rick:
This is NOT superstitution anymore that eating the wafer is. Its an interpetation of Bible.
Yes this person would not turn on his stove or microwave. Nor would he watch TV or listen to a radio. He WOULD walk to temple.
Edited:
Just looked at Need's Wikipedia link and that details it. It lists 39 activities that the Talmud (not the Bible) prohibits on the Sabbath. Kindling a fire is listed as #37. Ergo creating a spark.
Hmm. What does that have to do with the question?. or even my comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by scottgem
We have a question as to whether there is a sect of Judaism that believes that pushing an elevator button AND opening a door is prohibited. Where would we find this sort of "interpretation"?
For the record: Someone educate us and show us a recognized branch of Judaism that prohibits opening a door, and I will personally apologize not only here, but to them directly - in writing.
Starman, I am further curious: You say the guy "always...". Was this just a sabbath thing, or was it on any day?
That comment doesn't have to do with the question. I had already answered the question prior to making that comment. You may not have seen the portion I added which shows where to find this interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
That comment was a response to your superstition remark and I stand by it. I felt that remark was almost as insensitive as another remark in this thread that was, thankfully, apologized for.
Sorry, Starman, that we don't yet have an answer for you. Stay tuned, though, someone may come up with something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
In my answer, I indicated that opening the apartment door went too far. I suspect that was more a matter of Starman's memory then the actual request. It doesn't make sense unless the resident called them to open the door when they went out as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
But the issue of not pushing the elevator button is not uncommon. The same prohibition is what prevents them from flicking a light switch. Anything that would create a spark (kindle a fire) is prohibited.
OK, I guess we're in agreement, then, in that each of us call it "too far".
"Too far" is superstition, in "religious language".
Like I said, I'm not convinced the guy asked the building employees to open his apartment door. So until we hear from Starman with a qualification of that issue, I guess we table it.
I still think the jump to label the whole request as superstition from a non-Jew without any attempt to research or understand what might have been behind it was insensitive at best.
Did I not answer the question? Look at both my previous posts.?Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
It was just on the sabbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
My reply wasQuote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I gave more than a cursory glance at the 3 links but did not find anything about pushing a button or opening a door. I may have missed something.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickj
In fact, if indeed creating a spark is prohibited, I could buy pushing a button that makes a spark, but the opening the door thing is the stickler for me at this point.
This is the stuff I thrive on in case they ever call me to go on Jeopardy, so I'm as curious as Starman on this one. :D
I along with my uncle Hannibal worked as security guards, maintanance, and doormen. So the person had no trouble with the front doors since we were there to assist. After which we had to press the elevator button for him. I seem to remember that we also assisted him with opening his apartment door. I do recall accompaning him to his front door which we would only do if he needed further assistance. I also recall him standing outside at the outer entrance of the building waiting for us to open the outer building doors. If I were him, I'd just stay home and avoid the hassle.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
My thanks to all for the responses.
Hi Starman,Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Can you clarify the apartment door issue? Did he really ask that as well? Did he ask that it be opened both when leaving and coming home?
Again, the reason for the elevator button pressing is clear. But the apt door opening isn't.
Since I worked the night shift, my only encounter with him was when he was entering building on his way to his apartment at night. I never heard my uncle mention that he needed his apartment door opened in order to leave. My uncle would have known about it since there was much interchange of info among workers and he had occasionally worked the day shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
BTW
Others of the Jewish faith who lived there didn't do that.
There are three main divisions of Judiasm; Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. Within each, especially Orthodox, there are variations. Some use a very strict interpretation of Bibilcal and Talmudic law, others a looser, more modernistic interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I used to date a girl raised in stricter household. If I would go over to her house to hang out on Saturday afternoon, I would have to operate anything electrical, she couldn't.
Was the outer door a security door that worked on a buzzer? That might explain waiting for the security people to open that door. I don't understand any need to open the aprtment door. But the desire not to do anything that involved electricity is completely normal.
As to avoiding the hassle, I'm sure I could find some Christian rituals that are more onerous. I don't think, enduring some inconvenience in order to attend services should be considered a "hassle".
My apologies for the hassle statement. You are 100% correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Perhaps he was waiting be let in because of a locked door.
In an case, thanks for the time taken to respond.
Everything that Scott said was right on!
Well I guess I'm late to this question, but I wanted to add, my in-laws are Orthodox Jews, and they would never push a button on the Sabbath as they are Shomer Shabbos (meaning they keep the laws of the Sabbath). They do other things too, such as tape the lightswitches on or off so that no one accidentally flips them, and tear toilet paper in the bathroom and place it in piles (since you are not allowed to tear on the Sabbath, either). It might seem extreme, and even I don't agree with it, but it's a very common practice among Orthodox Jews in general, not just the Ultra Orthodox. It's not a matter of superstition; it's based on scriptures, Talmud, and Rabbinical interpretations. And if you've been brought up with it and know nothing else, it's extremely difficult to think of doing things in any other way.
Regarding the Jewish man who asked you to press the button for him, he was just following Shomer Shabbos; there was no misunderstanding on his part. In synagogues there is often a non-Jewish person who is employed as a helper to do certain "work" on the Sabbath, since the law doesn't apply to non-Jews. Maybe this man was thinking of you in the same way as he would the non-Jewish helper.
Hi!
I've read this thread several times before deciding to join the debate.
I don't wish to discuss this person in particular, since we don't have enough facts concerning him.
Still, I do have some remarks:
though we all , here, agree there is only one God, I think we'll also agree there are many ways to worship Him.
Who's to say which way is the true one? We're only human beings, and it's only human we shall not agree upon this.
In the main three monotheist religions, there are different "streams" all of which belong to this specific religion, yet they will not agree to submit to the other stream.
The same holds for Judaism. The three main streams were mentioned above, yet there are so many more "shades of gray" in each and everyone of them. I assume that holds true for the other religions as well, though I won't be categoric about subjects I hold myself as ignorant about.. I truly appreciate Starman's interest, I find his curiosity very sincere. I'd never label or categorize something without understanding, I have too much respect for others. Wouldn't you raise an eyebrow at an Argentinian (who can't see himself living without his Assado) winking at a Hindu who considers cows holy and would never harm them? I would. If I were an Argentinian I think I would respect the Hindu very much for giving up something so delicious, because of his belief!
I'd like to add that there are also secular Jews , like me, who are not very observant of our strict religion, yet keep many traditions going. We lived for 35 years in a high apartment building - there were religious families there only up to the 3rd floor, so that on Shabath and Jewish religious days, they wouldn't have to use the elevator. Although almost all us were secular Jews, they wouldn't ask us to help them, so that we won't commit a sin on their account!
I wouldn't know about opening the lock of the apartment door, but on Shabath and Jewish religious days, the downstairs door would be always left open: this door had an electric lock.
They will never touch any appliance in the kitchen. There is a hot plate left on for 24 hours, and the food is kept warm on it.
Yes, and they DO walk to the synagogue, even when very old .
If a very religious person had access to a pool on foot, they'll never use it on such a day, so as not to "wash" the swimming suit when they immerse in the pool.
There is toilet paper pre - cut, so that they won't have to tear it.
Seems odd?
Looking from a different angle, everything could look like superstition - there are probably endless examples in other religions as well, but I'll never get into it.
When I was a little girl in Romania, people used to make the sign of the cross whenever they passé by a church - and there were so many! I admired their deep belief - that's how I saw it.
I will end with a very wise ancient hebrew saying which I apologize in advance for translating it awkwardly, but I'm sure you'll see the point, and that's what really matters;
"whatever one rejects in others, he is actually rejecting in his own self"
That's why, whenever I fell I begin to criticize something, I look inside to see where I can see it in me and don't like having it deep inside!
Millie
My post was meant as an honest inquiry and wasn't meant in any way as criticism. It's unfortunate that it be taken that way since doing so stifles any other questions that might be asked. Perhaps no questions at all should be asked. This way no offense will be taken.
I for one didn't take offense, Starman. I can tell you are sincere, and your questions are really good ones. I'm looking forward to you asking more.
Whoa! That is exactly the way I took your original question. It was a good question. I've seen a lot of your posts and respect your attitude and perspective as well as your knowledge. I've learned a good deal from them. I had a problem with answers you received, not with your original question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I guess I was reacting to the above words which seem to imply that. But then again I might be wrong. In any case thanks for the info. I am learning many things myself.Quote:
I will end with a very wise ancient hebrew saying which I apologize in advance for translating it awkwardly, but I'm sure you'll see the point, and that's what really matters;
"whatever one rejects in others, he is actually rejecting in his own self"
That's why, whenever I fell I begin to criticize something, I look inside to see where I can see it in me and don't like having it deep inside!
Actually I understand what you mean though... I also like to ask questions, especially questions about Christianity, but I have stopped doing that. I just had my feelings hurt so many times. Certain people would attack me, leave nasty negative comments on my posts, etc. It just wasn't worth it. And it's too bad, because I too am sinerely interested in Christian beliefs, and not trying to be a smarta** or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
WEll you can feel free to ask me. I won't feel offended. If not here you can email me at [email protected]Quote:
Originally Posted by orange
BTW
Everything going well with the pregnancy?
How many more months until the little one arrives?
May God bless and be with him always as well as with yourself and your family.
Thanks Starman... I may just take you up on that. In any event, I'll add your email to our address book so my husband can send you something when our baby is born!
I'm due on June 16, so I have about 8 weeks left. However, I've been feeling quite sick and extra tired lately, and this morning the doctor confirmed that I have the beginnings of preeclampsia. So far I am all right, but I have to take it easy and be monitored very closely. If the preeclampsia progresses, I will have to have the baby early... they will either induce labour or do a c section. The doctor is hoping though that I will be able to hang on for at least another 3 weeks. But if I suddenly disappear from the forum, you'll know I'm probably having the baby!
That's exactly how I understood your original question - I've never doubted your sincere interest, didn't think you were criticizingQuote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Millie :)
Thank you and God bless!Quote:
Originally Posted by milliec
Sorry about my misperception.
Geez, I hope that wasn't based on my first post - I was referring to Fred's answer not your question. If this is the case I apologize for any confusion. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
NeedKarma, it was clear to me at least that you were referring to Fred's post, not Starman's. I don't think you need to worry.
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