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Originally Posted by BABRAM

First off it's Israel, not "Isreal." Next, not just "a" servant as you suggested, but G-d's servant. Guess Whom you're really arguing with?! Re-read again!

(Is 49:3)"You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory"

(Is. 45:4) "For the sake of My servant Jacob, Israel My chosen one"





. Add to this the nonsense that you were taught about Jesus being G-d and able to commit suicide on a cross, is pure silliness.







John 18:34, Jesus replied, "Does that word come from you, or did you hear it from others."

John 18:36, Jesus answered, "My kingship does not come from this world. If I were king like those of this world, my guards would have fought to save me from being handed over to the Jews. But my kingship is not from here."

John 18:37, Jesus answered, "Just as you say, I am a king. For this I was born and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of truth hears my voice." (38) Pilate said, "What is truth."



Now again I used the words of your Christian Testament. Was Jesus silent not opening his mouth?! Does this disqualification mean anything to you or are you going to deny the facts?




Bobby

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Israel is God's servant and I have not disputed that, but acocording to the Scriptures the Mesiah is to come first as a servant of the lord to die for the remission of the world sin Isaiah 53 and then he will come again as the Truimphant King to rule and rein over the earth. The former has already taken place and now we await his return.

"And just where in all the Torah does it say that G-d accepts human sacrfice? I think it's clear you were taught in the Christian religion to assume that being passive and persecuted meant human sacrifice

Its is very obvious that Isaiah 53 is referring to some type of sacrifice hence the comparison of the lamb being led to slaughter and so therefor if you say Israel is the subject then that means Irael is the sacrifice. This goes against your own opinions that god does not allow human sacrifice because then that means He led a whole nation like a lamb for slaughter to its death for the remission of sin. So you keep going around in circles and contradicting your own statements.

I Jesus did NOT speak after he was sentensed to death and Isaiah make it very clear that he is making reference to when Jesus was sentenced and being led to his death that he did not say a word. WHICH HE DID NOT say a word in protest. So he fulfilled that prophesy, amen! So if we use the same argument against yours then the Nation of Israel did not say a word? Im prety sure someone said something.. even a word, if you want to be that literal. Then on that token your agument is completely false. I just can't see the logic behind Isaiah 53 referring to The nation of Israel. The Nation of Israel did not die for the remission of sin. For someone to die for remission of sin they have to be pure and sinless like a lamb. Christ led a sinless life and was pure and therefore could be used for the atonement of sin. The voice in the wilderness that Isaiah talks of in Isaiah 40 says Behold the lamp of God who takes away the sins of the world. As was prophesied by Isaiah, through Jesus Christ we the gentiles & the world have come to know the one true God ,Jehovah YHWH, Jehoval shalom, Jehovah Jira, the Great I AM, whom we would have other wise not known had it been that Imanuel God with US who died for the remission of the sin of the world that who so ever shall believe in Him to them he gives the right to become the Children of God, Amen.

The Jews are God's chosen people and they are specail. However God also wanted to reconcile the rest of the world to him, because after all we are also His creation. That's is why he sent His Son.

Isaiah 53
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.


The nation of Isreal did not pour of Ist soul unto death. It was not numbered with the transgressors,(vs 12) Jesus was, he was crusified with thieves and murdered and yet he has done no wrong (vs 9) The Nation of Israel has not bore the sins of the world and nor has it made interession for the transgressors. Jesus has because it says in God's word that he is seated at the Right hand of the Father interceding for you and me.

Vs 11, Jesus has seen the labor of His soul which is to justify many by bearing their sins. And God is satisfied. The "Nation of Isael" has not born anyone's sin. They can not because as in vs 6 we all like sheep have gone astray and have sinned against God. The sacrifice for sin has to be pure and without blame.
Vs.8 Isaish says he was he was cuttoff from the land of the living(hence he died) for the transgressions of MY people (The Children of Israel) He was striken. This shows that this chapter is talking of someone other than the nation of israel because the subject in this text, died for the remission of sin for Isaiah's people (The children of Israel). This chapter is very clear and if your read it just let God speak to reveal His truth to you.

Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? If it was Jesus-the-god, Jews don't believe that G-d can die. If it was Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus was a human death, a human sacrifice. Jews believe that G-d hates the very idea of human sacrifice.

Remember the original posted question: "Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Messiah?" In short what exactly does G-d say about human sacrifice in the TANAKH? In Deuteronomy 12:30-31, G-d calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. In Jeremiah 19:4-6, G-d tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind to demand it from His creation, "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." We see the same thing in Psalm 106:37-38, and in Ezekiel 16:20. This means that G-d would not accept Jesus's death on the cross as a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. The very idea of that G-d would accept a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins does not appear Biblical.



Bobby

A couple more random facts (and I'll ignore the temptation to explain how Jesus was not sinless etc).

Israel actually has borne the sins -- that hebrew construction actually means "He has been accused of the sins committed by others and had to bear punishment for their actions" so the Jewish people being accused of things like killing English children, or being money lenders (when the former was actually actions of others and the latter was a societal demands placed upon Jews) the Jewish people are punished for the sins of others. Exactly as the verse says. This is not about "intercession" but about being held accountable for someone else's actions. Jeremiah 29:7 shows clearly how the Jews have stepped in to try and pray for the peace even of the cities which have caused them exile, something we still do every week in synagogue.

The verse before, verse 11, actually translates to "suffer by their inquities" meaning suffer when they sin -- when the other nations kill us, we are suffering as they sin by murder. Glib translations gloss over the exact meaning.

For the first few verses, it is important to establish the speaker -- the voice is that of the other nations which realize that Israel has suffered because of their actions; this clearly makes the "Him" in verse 6 the nation. The notion of a new "chapter" is a late addition -- verse 1 of 53 continues the narrative of other nations realizing how the nation has been mistreated but now how it rises up and is renewed (start with the statement by God in 52:5 to see the subject as the people, not a person). Therefore, since the subject is the nation, the "my people" of the speaker in verse 8 is clearly the rulers and their subjects who have oppressed the Jewish people. The use of the plural pronoun in verse 53:1 establishes this connection to the plural rulers in 52:15.

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? If it was Jesus-the-god, Jews don't believe that G-d can die. If it was Jesus-the-human, then all Christians have in the death of Jesus was a human death, a human sacrifice. Jews believe that G-d hates the very idea of human sacrifice.

Remember the original posted question: "Specific reasons Judaism rejected Jesus as Messiah?" In short what exactly does G-d say about human sacrifice in the TANAKH? In Deuteronomy 12:30-31, G-d calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him, "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. In Jeremiah 19:4-6, G-d tells us that Human sacrifice is so horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind to demand it from His creation, "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." We see the same thing in Psalm 106:37-38, and in Ezekiel 16:20. This means that G-d would not accept Jesus's death on the cross as a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. The very idea of that G-d would accept a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins does not appear Biblical.



Bobby

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You keep repeating yourself over and over again. & I keep asking you the same thing and I am not getting a straight answer from you; So if God hates Human sacrifice, (which I am sure he does but Jesus was God not just any human) then why did he sacrifice an entire nation of Human beings (isaiah 53) according to your interpretation of the chapter??

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Originally Posted by Soldout

you keep repeating yourself over and over again. & i keep asking you the same thing and i am not getting a straight answer from you; So if God hates Human sacrifice, (which i am sure he does but Jesus was God not just any human) then why did he sacrifice an entire nation of Human beings (isaiah 53) according to your interpretation of the chapter???

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See that's proof that you didn't read our previous answers. For example: I mentioned your definition of "sacrifice" is not the same as Jewish understanding and Rosends answered in his last post that the Hebrew text is not as presented by Gentile Bibles. In fact I mentioned that early on and he even invited you to Hebrew session, which I assume you declined. Please read Rosends last post. And I not only answered the original posted question by Romonabeez, which you did not, Elliot (ETW) answered some forty plus citations or yours, I answered your question already, Dan (Rosends) has answered your questions... but you have not answer mine! When are you going to start? Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? BTW on a personal note, do you have a first name? As Jews we really don't have horns on ours heads as Michelangelo painted.


Bobby

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rosends

A couple more random facts (and I'll ignore the temptation to explain how Jesus was not sinless etc).

Israel actually has borne the sins -- that hebrew construction actually means "He has been accused of the sins committed by others and had to bear punishment for their actions" so the Jewish people being accused of things like killing English children, or being money lenders (when the former was actually actions of others and the latter was a societal demands placed upon Jews) the Jewish people are punished for the sins of others. Exactly as the verse says. This is not about "intercession" but about being held accountable for someone else's actions. Jeremiah 29:7 shows clearly how the Jews have stepped in to try and pray for the peace even of the cities which have caused them exile, something we still do every week in synagogue.

The verse before, verse 11, actually translates to "suffer by their inquities" meaning suffer when they sin -- when the other nations kill us, we are suffering as they sin by murder. Glib translations gloss over the exact meaning.

For the first few verses, it is important to establish the speaker -- the voice is that of the other nations which realize that Israel has suffered because of their actions; this clearly makes the "Him" in verse 6 the nation. The notion of a new "chapter" is a late addition -- verse 1 of 53 continues the narrative of other nations realizing how the nation has been mistreated but now how it rises up and is renewed (start with the statement by God in 52:5 to see the subject as the people, not a person). Therefore, since the subject is the nation, the "my people" of the speaker in verse 8 is clearly the rulers and their subjects who have oppressed the Jewish people. The use of the plural pronoun in verse 53:1 establishes this connection to the plural rulers in 52:15.

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I don't think God punishing a whole nation of people for sins committed by other nations of people is Biblical or is in the Torah. I have seen God punishing a group of people for the sin of one man with in that group but not the former.
The Nation of Israel/Jews are God's chosen people, they are the apple of His eye. I just don't see how God can punish and sacrifice the nation of Israel(His beloved) for the sins of the world that they have nothing to do with them. How can he place a heavy burden on Israel and lay the sins of the would on them. But I see it more fit for Him, because he is a Loving God, to die Himself for the remission of the world's sin. And that is what he did so that you the Jew and I the Gentile may be justified through the cleansing of our sin. For without the shedding of blood there is not remission of sin.

Vs.8 Isaish says he was he was cuttoff from the land of the living(hence he died) for the transgressions of MY people (The Children of Israel) He was striken. This shows that this chapter is talking of someone other than the nation of israel because the subject in this text, died for the remission of sin for Isaiah's people (The children of Israel).

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah said He laid on Him the iniquities for us all so if Isaiah is part of the nation of Israel(NOI) then it would not make sense for him to say " And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of the NOI and the world's"
If the NOI was the subject Isaiah would have said "And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of (us all)nation of Israel and the world's" When he says on us all that includes the NOI so it can't be the subject of the scripture.

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Originally Posted by Soldout

I dont think God punishing a whole nation of people for sins committed by other nations of people is Biblical or is in the Torah. I have seen God punishing a group of people for the sin of one man with in that group but not the former.
The Nation of Israel/Jews are God's chosen people, they are the apple of His eye. I just dont see how God can punish and sacrifice the nation of Israel(His beloved) for the sins of the world that they have nothing to do with them. How can he place a heavy burden on Israel and lay the sins of the would on them. But i see it more fit for Him, because he is a Loving God, to die Himself for the remission of the world's sin. And that is what he did so that you the Jew and i the Gentile may be justified through the cleansing of our sin. For without the shedding of blood there is not remission of sin.

Vs.8 Isaish says he was he was cuttoff from the land of the living(hence he died) for the the transgressions of MY people (The Children of Israel) He was striken. This shows that this chapter is talking of someone other than the nation of israel because the subject in this text, died for the remission of sin for Isaiah's people (The children of Israel).

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah said He laid on Him the iniquities for us all so if Isaiah is part of the nation of Israel(NOI) then it would not make sense for him to say " And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of the NOI and the world's"
If the NOI was the subject Isaiah would have said "And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of (us all)nation of Israel and the world's" When he says on us all that includes the NOI so it can't be the subject of the scripture.

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Either your just not reading the posts or not digesting the answers. The following drash is by *Gerald Sigal, which may make it plainer for you to understand.

There is no indication in verse 8 that the servant of the Lord suffers to atone for the sins of others. What this verse states is that he suffers as a result of the misdeeds of others, who treat him unfairly and unjustly. Hence, the conclusion of the verse, in which the enemies of the servant admit responsibility for the cruel treatment they have meted out to him.

This is the confession of the Gentile spokesperson, who now expresses the Gentile realization that it was they and their people who deserved to suffer the humiliation inflicted on the servant of the Lord, as admitted in verses 4-6. In short, the servant's enemies admit that his suffering stemmed from their own sinful imposition of hardships upon him: "From the transgression of my people there has been affliction to him [them]." The servant of the Lord suffers not on behalf of others' sins but because of the things that sinful men do to him.



Bobby

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

See that's proof that you didn't read our previous answers. For example: I mentioned your definition of "sacrifice" is not the same as Jewish understanding and Rosends answered in his last post that the Hebrew text is not as presented by Gentile Bibles. In fact I mentioned that early on and he even invited you to Hebrew session, which I assume you declined. Please read Rosends last post. And I not only answered the original posted question by Romonabeez, which you did not, Elliot (ETW) answered some forty plus citations or yours, I answered your question already, Dan (Rosends) has answered your questions....but you have not answer mine! When are you going to start? Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human? BTW on a personal note, do you have a first name? As Jews we really don't have horns on ours heads as Michelangelo painted.


Bobby

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Hi Bobby would you mind posting Isaiah 53 from the Torah so that maybe I can see how its been translated. Because the way I read isaiah 53, it is drawing parallels between the sacrifice of a lamb for remission of sin (which was done in the old testament days as an atonement) and the sacrifice of the subject whoever it may be, whether Christ of the "Nation of Israel" (NOI). So maybe your translation is different, that why I am asking if you can post the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 53.

My name is Sammy. I don't believe the Jews have horns on their head. As a Christians we are comanded to love and pray for the Jews so anything in contrary to that is non Biblical. The Jews are God's chosen people and the history and the future of the world revolves around that small nation Isreal.

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Originally Posted by Soldout

I don't think God punishing a whole nation of people for sins committed by other nations of people is Biblical or is in the Torah. I have seen God punishing a group of people for the sin of one man with in that group but not the former.

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Really?

How about the Flood of Noah?

How about the 10 Plagues of the Egyptians?

How about G-d's admonission to us to completely destroy every memory of the Amalekites, man, woman and child?

There are any number of examples of G-d punishing entire nations for the actions of a few.

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The Nation of Israel/Jews are God's chosen people, they are the apple of His eye. I just don't see how God can punish and sacrifice the nation of Israel(His beloved) for the sins of the world that they have nothing to do with them. How can he place a heavy burden on Israel and lay the sins of the would on them.

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Because that is what it means to be "a light unto the nations"... an example of a people who worship G-d despite terrible things happening to them. And because of our own sins. That too is part of being the light unto the nations... sometimes we serve as an example of what NOT to do, and what punishments are in store for others who don't learn from our example.

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But i see it more fit for Him, because he is a Loving God, to die Himself for the remission of the world's sin. And that is what he did so that you the Jew and i the Gentile may be justified through the cleansing of our sin. For without the shedding of blood there is not remission of sin.

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What sin? We don't believe in the "original sin" either.

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Vs.8 Isaish says he was he was cuttoff from the land of the living(hence he died) for the transgressions of MY people (The Children of Israel) He was striken. This shows that this chapter is talking of someone other than the nation of israel because the subject in this text, died for the remission of sin for Isaiah's people (The children of Israel).

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah said He laid on Him the iniquities for us all so if Isaiah is part of the nation of Israel(NOI) then it would not make sense for him to say " And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of the NOI and the world's"
If the NOI was the subject Isaiah would have said "And the Lord has laid on the NOI the inquities of (us all)nation of Israel and the world's" When he says on us all that includes the NOI so it can't be the subject of the scripture.

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You keep mentioning verse 8. So here it is in the original Hebrew.

Verse 8:
מֵעצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח וְאֶת־דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ׃

Literally:
From trial and justice he was taken, and his generation who did forget? Because he was lost from the land of living, from the sins of my nation, the time had come.

Was Jesus taken from “justice” or was it a kangaroo court as Christian scripture seems to claim?

And in his generation, practically EVERYONE forgot Jesus. It wasn’t until almost 200 years later that the followers of Jesus began to remember stuff about him and create a religion that we now call Christianity.

Furthermore, what sin did the nation commit at that particular time that Jesus supposedly died for? What time had come? As far as I can tell, there was nothing different about the year 1 CE when Jesus was born, the year 36 CE when he died and the years before that from roughly 500 BC. Nothing significant had changed in terms of the Jews’ “sinfulness”. What time had “arrived” that this was now the time for a godling to be born, die, comeback three days later, and die again? And if some special time had arrived, then why was Jesus unable to complete the prophesies required of the Messiah? The ones that you keep saying will happen after his THIRD attempt. You know... world peace, an end to poverty, an end to suffering, all that Messianic stuff. If it was TIME back in 70 CE, then why couldn't Jesus do all those things?

Elliot

"There are any number of examples of G-d punishing entire nations for the actions of a few"

Exacty that's my point. He has punished a nations for the actions of a few however he can not punish a small nation like isreal for the action of billions of people that is out of God's character.

"And in his generation, practically EVERYONE forgot Jesus. It wasn't until almost 200 years later that the followers of Jesus began to remember stuff about him and create a religion that we now call Christian"

That is incorrect. The 4+ New testament books were written by Jesus' deciples shortly after his death (they couldn't have lived for 300 years to write it 200years later) so obviously they are the first Christians. The aposel Paul was an early christian who wrote many of the new testament scriptures a few years after the Christ's death. So Paul is obviously one of the early Christians. And it is also recorded that there were over 3000 converts days after jesus ascended into heaven. So I don't know where you get of saying that there were no Christians before 200AD.

You keep mentioning verse 8. So here it is in the original Hebrew.

It is not only verse 8! The whole chapter Isaiah says "the Subject" suffered, died, was bruised for MY PEOPLE, for US, For US ALL , OUR etc. He is a Jew so I understand that "MY people" is making reference to HIS people the "nation of isreal"

So this is how you are translating this; The nation of isreal was suffered for the nation of Isreal (MY People) does that make sense to you. Do me a favor please read the whole chapter again replacing the word "He" "MY People" & "Us" with the "nation of Isreal" Does that make sense to you??

Ask yourselves, when isaiah says OUR, US, US ALL. Who do your think he is talking about. He is talking about the Gentiles AND the Jews hence us all. If he was only making reference to other people not including Jews then he would be using less inclusive words like THEM YOUR. So he would have been saying to the world The Nation of Isreal was Bruised for YOUR inquities and by The nation of Irael's Stripes YOU have been healed. But its is the By Christ's Stripes on his back from the whipping that we are ALL healed. Think about this.

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Originally Posted by Soldout

Hi Bobby would you mind posting Isaiah 53 from the Torah so that maybe i can see how its been translated. Because the way i read isaiah 53, it is drawing parallels between the sacrifice of a lamb for remission of sin (which was done in the old testament days as an atonement) and the sacrifice of the subject whoever it may be, whether Christ of the "Nation of Israel" (NOI). So maybe your translation is different, that why i am asking if you can post the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 53.

My name is Sammy. I dont believe the Jews have horns on their head. As a Christians we are comanded to love and pray for the Jews so anything in contrary to that is non Biblical. The Jews are God's chosen people and the history and the future of the world revolves around that small nation Isreal.

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Hi Sammy,

It's not in the sefar Torah. The book of Isaiah is found in the section of the TANAKH under Nevi'im (prophets). I don't have the Hebrew fonts to type your request on the post. Which verse exactly do you want to go over? I see that Elliot (ETW) managed the Ivrit onto this site. Perhaps he can direct you to a Stone Edition Tanakh translation online or post the Hebrew using his computer programs. My rabbi once said that we are known as the chosen people, Duet 7:7 (and I guess that was further fostered in Chaim Potoks book), but equally we are also the people choosing to serve G-d. My questions remain: Who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or was it Jesus-the-human?



Bobby

Asking to paste verse 6 or 8 of "chapter 53" is part of the problem. The narrative continues and the subject is established at the end of 52 and earlier. The pronouns are not as you ssume. The speaker for much of this is not Isaiah our god but the rulers of nations. So the "my people" for whom "they were punished" is the nations of the earth for whom the Jews were punished. You inability to see "fairness" in this as you see us as the apple of God's eye is sweet but immaterial. This is the way the world will recognize it whether you think it s wrong.

This thread is OVER FOUR years old!!

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